Nursing School Vs Med School, no comparison.

Started by Critical Mass REACHED
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Get help with your application

Use all the free resources available to you from SDN: articles, guides, expert advising, forums discussions, and school research.

Browse articles Compare schools My application plan Read Interview Feedback
Practice for interviews Ask an Advisor
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Anastomoses said:
Actually you and evil just got to my mind. I never thought of it so much as being PC but I just tend to feel things will fall in place. You've actually changed my mind. Perhaps physicians are allowing very vocal mid-levels to convince politicians that they are just as effective - which they obviously are not. Perhaps this issue needs to be dealt with clearly in the public's mind.
Click to expand...

The thing to remember is to not really let this show on the outside. Nurses in the hospital can and will make your life a living hell, be it as a resident or a student. All you can do is support the legislation that helps our concerns politically and do your part once you're an attending.
 
Anastomoses said:
Actually you and evil just got to my mind. I never thought of it so much as being PC but I just tend to feel things will fall in place. You've actually changed my mind. Perhaps physicians are allowing very vocal mid-levels to convince politicians that they are just as effective - which they obviously are not. Perhaps this issue needs to be dealt with clearly in the public's mind.
Click to expand...

Yup. Don't be fooled. If they are waging a war and we don't even have soldiers then we're toast.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Critical Mass REACHED said:
I am not saying that we can't hold our own, but we don't need to justify our cause. The public will know what to do. The Democrats will probably lose the senate because of how they voted on the adorable health care act. They will contain this problem, if not, then physicians will need to go on a PR campaign and unite as one force and not broken down by special interest among individual specialities. I'm talking FP's, Surgeons, IM, peds, Anesthesiologist etc uniting for one cause, and that's Patient safety.
Click to expand...

I have less faith in the public than you do. I've seen dozens of patients come into the office calling the NP they saw 'Dr. So-and-so'. Too many people don't really care who they see. I've also seen people adamately fight against seeing the MD over the NP (that is, preferring the NP).
 
mvenus929 said:
I have less faith in the public than you do. I've seen dozens of patients come into the office calling the NP they saw 'Dr. So-and-so'. Too many people don't really care who they see. I've also seen people adamately fight against seeing the MD over the NP (that is, preferring the NP).
Click to expand...

I've also seen a lot of "I saw my doctor, or I guess it's an NP now, but anyway he said..." Patients don't know or care about the difference.
 
@JackShephard said:
I agree with VisionaryT. Physicians need to band together. We can no longer ignore these thing and just focus on the medicine and the patients. Look at fields like anesthesia. Physicians work like dogs for decades and improve standards of care, research, technology, even training nurses and then when its simple enough the nurses swoop in and claim they are just as good. Well great. When someone has basically handed you the keys to the kingdom it's easy to walk in the door.

It's like physicians are designing and refining the iPod and then nurses are coming in and selling cheaper imitation with the governments good graces.

It's no longer friendly when their leadership wants to replace our job because of our research, blood, sweat and tears.
Click to expand...

This was an excellent point. Great comparison.
 
@JackShephard said:
I agree with VisionaryT. Physicians need to band together. We can no longer ignore these thing and just focus on the medicine and the patients. Look at fields like anesthesia. Physicians work like dogs for decades and improve standards of care, research, technology, even training nurses and then when its simple enough the nurses swoop in and claim they are just as good. Well great. When someone has basically handed you the keys to the kingdom it's easy to walk in the door.

It's like physicians are designing and refining the iPod and then nurses are coming in and selling cheaper imitation with the governments good graces.

It's no longer friendly when their leadership wants to replace our job because of our research, blood, sweat and tears.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure about how you're stating this. If NPs really can do 95% to the efficacy of a doctor and will cost the patient half...for many in and out cases, you will have people going to NPs. Is that a bad thing? I'm really not sure because we have to sort of weigh this from society's standpoint, not just due to our blood sweat and tears.

Distinctions and examples need to be made. Clear evidence that they will be dropping the ball when it comes to diagnosing and treatment.
 
Last edited:
Anastomoses said:
Distinctions and examples need to be made. Clear evidence that they will be dropping the ball when it comes to diagnosing and treatment.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think this is an interesting topic. It's one thing for NPs and CRNAs to put together "research" that there is no difference in patient outcomes between physicians and midlevels. On the other hand, if physicians started a serious campaign to show negative outcomes under NP/CRNA care or really anything insinuating physicians are superior in any way, it will just come off like the big bad MD/DO picking on the poor midlevels.
 
TheWeeIceMan said:
Yeah, I think this is an interesting topic. It's one thing for NPs and CRNAs to put together "research" that there is no difference in patient outcomes between physicians and midlevels. On the other hand, if physicians started a serious campaign to show negative outcomes under NP/CRNA care or really anything insinuating physicians are superior in any way, it will just come off like the big bad MD/DO picking on the poor midlevels.
Click to expand...
And the anti intellectual sentiment in this country wouldn't help .

I do think that more needs to be done to educate the public on the differences between NPs and MD/DOs. Perhaps that would lead to less of this nonsense. But that's just me being overly optimistic
 
Anastomoses said:
I'm not sure about how you're stating this. If NPs really can do 95% to the efficiency of a doctor and will cost the patient half...for many in and out cases, you will have people going to NPs. Is that a bad thing? I'm really not sure because we have to sort of weigh this from society's standpoint, not just due to our blood sweat and tears.

Distinctions and examples need to be made. Clear evidence that they will be dropping the ball when it comes to diagnosing and treatment.
Click to expand...

95% is very generous.. But fine. That 5% difference is knowledge that an NP could miss and end up costing the pt much more than the $15 copay they saved..
 
Anastomoses said:
I'm not sure about how you're stating this. If NPs really can do 95% to the efficiency of a doctor and will cost the patient half...for many in and out cases, you will have people going to NPs. Is that a bad thing? I'm really not sure because we have to sort of weigh this from society's standpoint, not just due to our blood sweat and tears.

Distinctions and examples need to be made. Clear evidence that they will be dropping the ball when it comes to diagnosing and treatment.
Click to expand...

Like others said, 95% - in what field and diagnosing or treating what?

My point is that we could probably teach high school kids how to diagnose and treat some diseases. The reason we pay physicians what we do is to do it consistently and to be able to handle even those 1 in 100 or 1 in 1,000 cases that presents strangely.

This is why people sue physicians and win big sums of money when things go wrong. If you are saying, "well an NP can do 70% or ___% of what a doctor can do." Well, great. Doctors are paid what they are for that extra 30% or 10% of the time that people would die or have severe complications if we we're there.

If you were one of those 10 cases who permanently went blind, lost an organ, or had life altering consequences because someone dropped the ball - no one cares if it was a 10 in 100 or 1 in 100 chance, at that point they want the best care.

This is why surgeons are so safe. With death as such a clear possibility, then think "Oh, I definitely want a physician." Yet, in other fields which poor management has severe repercussions, it is less clear to the public and hence they're ok with various standards of care.
 
Let's take your estimated number of a 5% different and let's put that into perspective. 5% of 1 million =50,000

Let's say out of those 50,000 people 25,000 had serious complication, enough to warrant serious litigation finding negligence. The average jury awarded the victims 300,000-700,000 thousand dollars.

For arguments sake I'll take the low ball number of 300,000 dollars awarded in a malpractice suit.
(300,000)X(25,000)= 7.5 billion dollars.

7.5 billion dollars worth of mistakes! Thats using that low ball 5% and a population of 1 million! Imagine the total Population of the USA!
 
dyspareunia said:
95% is very generous.. But fine. That 5% difference is knowledge that an NP could miss and end up costing the pt much more than the $15 copay they saved..
Click to expand...

Exactly. An emergency physician was talking about a patient complaining, "Holy crap, you charged me such a large fee to just send me home with aspirin!?". After some thought he came to this conclusion, the charge for the aspirin was pennies, the rest of the fee was knowing how to rule out life saving diseases, to know how the present in those rare cases, and THEN and only then to send you home.

The physicians I worked with today caught a very atypical MI which the patient went to the emergency department for, coded shortly after arriving and then lived to see another day. This patient is now alive 2 years later and thriving. That's why you pay physicians a little more.

It's hard to explain this to people who don't see the patients who fall through the cracks (which are mostly hard working medical professionals).

Corollary: I will go play golf with Tiger Woods. He can hit all the incredibly difficult shots and I'll take over when the shots are incredibly easy. Then we split his our winnings.

Unfortunately, that's not how it works.
 
Last edited:
dyspareunia said:
95% is very generous.. But fine. That 5% difference is knowledge that an NP could miss and end up costing the pt much more than the $15 copay they saved..
Click to expand...
to some people $15 is three bottles of wine, if you know what I mean.

@JackShephard said:
Exactly. An emergency physician was talking about a patient complaining, "Holy crap, you charged me such a large fee to just send me home with aspirin!?". After some thought he came to this conclusion, the charge for the aspirin was pennies, the rest of the fee was knowing how to rule out life saving diseases, to know how the present in those rare cases, and THEN and only then to send you home.

The physicians I worked with today caught a very atypical MI which the patient went to the emergency department for, coded shortly after arriving and then lived to see another day. This patient is now alive 2 years later and thriving. That's why you pay physicians a little more.

It's hard to explain this to people who don't see the patients who fall through the cracks (which are mostly hard working medical professionals).
Click to expand...

Absolutely. I have a classmate from a bit of a poorer background and when I found out she had been told to have her TSH levels checked, I began badgering her about it. She finally got it done and when she saw the results in normal range she said "my father is gonna be pissed". I couldn't keep my thoughts to myself at that point.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
fancymylotus said:
People who don't wanna come to the dentist for their regular six month checkups that are (mostly) covered by their ins.....


Who then come in after three or four years and need an expensive procedure their ins doesn't cover, and complain like crazy.

******* annoying
Click to expand...

If dentists wouldn't sic the witches with the hooks on my poor gums every 6 months I'd be more likely to show up. But yeah, once I get a single issue with my teeth (had like one cavity when I was a pre-teen) I'll be in more often.
 
@JackShephard said:
Exactly. An emergency physician was talking about a patient complaining, "Holy crap, you charged me such a large fee to just send me home with aspirin!?". After some thought he came to this conclusion, the charge for the aspirin was pennies, the rest of the fee was knowing how to rule out life saving diseases, to know how the present in those rare cases, and THEN and only then to send you home.

The physicians I worked with today caught a very atypical MI which the patient went to the emergency department for, coded shortly after arriving and then lived to see another day. This patient is now alive 2 years later and thriving. That's why you pay physicians a little more.

It's hard to explain this to people who don't see the patients who fall through the cracks (which are mostly hard working medical professionals).

Corollary: I will go play golf with Tiger Woods. He can hit all the incredibly difficult shots and I'll take over when the shots are incredibly easy. Then we split his our winnings.

Unfortunately, that's not how it works.
Click to expand...
These are excellent points. I just want these things cogently expressed with stellar arguments.
Patients don't care if we paid more for our education or if physicians have done the research and are owed something in return.
 
fancymylotus said:
our hygienists are all hot.


you wouldn't mind if they were poking around your gums 😀
Click to expand...

(a) I would think coming back from a starting point in the relationship of them scraping plaque off my teeth for 30 minutes would be tough. I know it's their job and they certainly don't care, but it just seems gross to me.

(b) all of my hygienists I've had seem to be mild to heavy sadists.
 
SharkBaitOooAha said:
My sister in law shared this on FB. I'll just leave it here

http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentaries/249354941.html
Click to expand...


I like how she equates an APRN prescribing meds to a dentist prescribing antibiotics or doing a root canal, saying that the APRN prescribing meds "is not practicing medicine [and neither is the dentist]." Umm... yes, both are practicing medicine. The difference is that the dentist is really a form of medical specialty with a customized medical curriculum. The educational level and curriculum of a DDS is comparable to that of an MD. NPs...not so much. Both great professions but this statement is a bold-faced lie.
 
music2doc said:
I like how she equates an APRN prescribing meds to a dentist prescribing antibiotics or doing a root canal, saying that the APRN prescribing meds "is not practicing medicine [and neither is the dentist]." Umm... yes, both are practicing medicine. The difference is that the dentist is really a form of medical specialty with a customized medical curriculum. The educational level and curriculum of a DDS is comparable to that of an MD. NPs...not so much. Both great professions but this statement is a bold-faced lie.
Click to expand...

"We are not asking for independence but autonomy". For the NP agenda these two words are really one in the same. The best part is my sister-in-law (who is an NP) and all her NP friends are urging people to call their local rep and ask that the bill be passed. Family Christmas might be awkward here in a few years.
 
SharkBaitOooAha said:
"We are not asking for independence but autonomy". For the NP agenda these two words are really one in the same. The best part is my sister-in-law (who is an NP) and all her NP friends are urging people to call their local rep and ask that the bill be passed. Family Christmas might be awkward here in a few years.
Click to expand...

Take the low road and show everyone in your family how little she knows compared to you.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
music2doc said:
I like how she equates an APRN prescribing meds to a dentist prescribing antibiotics or doing a root canal, saying that the APRN prescribing meds "is not practicing medicine [and neither is the dentist]." Umm... yes, both are practicing medicine. The difference is that the dentist is really a form of medical specialty with a customized medical curriculum. The educational level and curriculum of a DDS is comparable to that of an MD. NPs...not so much. Both great professions but this statement is a bold-faced lie.
Click to expand...


Did they just compare dentists to NURSES?

Wonderful
 
touchpause13 said:
I really hope a dentist submits a snack down rebuttal.
Click to expand...

May not be a dentist, but no one is really commenting on the story, so this is the closest thing.

Ms Weber incorrectly describes the education and practice parameters of a Doctor of Dental Surgery (DDS) or Doctor of Medical Dentistry(DMD). Dentists are surgeons of the oral cavity and maxilla-facial area as well as diagnosticians. Clearly very different education, length of education training and practice parameters than Nurses and APRN's. The public does not understand practice abilities and expertise of Doctor of Dental Surgery or Doctor of Medical Dentistry. Root canals are surgical procedures; actually every procedure is a surgical procedure in dentistry requiring surgical kits which are very expensive. Your article with the example below does not help, in fact it only confuses the public with misinformation. "Nurses practice nursing, and advanced-practice nurses practice advanced nursing. APRNs may borrow from the medical toolbox, but they are no more practicing medicine than a dentist who prescribes antibiotics, injects novocaine or does a root canal."
Click to expand...
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
I think best way to proceed, is not to wage propaganda war or try to educate the masses. Just do everything you are supposed to do to defend your patients in your work circle, call out people when you have to and support the administrative decisions that are appropriate. Don't be that guy who takes advice from a nurse, she might be right. In fact some nurses have learned tons with former experience seeing other docs, etc ,etc. But they are dogmatic, your role if to make decisions, be a leader, be liable, help in scientific advancement and safely perform medical procedures with the knowledge required to solve any upcoming issue, Nurses job is a supportive one.
 
Kahreek said:
I think best way to proceed, is not to wage propaganda war or try to educate the masses. Just do everything you are supposed to do to defend your patients in your work circle, call out people when you have to and support the administrative decisions that are appropriate. Don't be that guy who takes advice from a nurse, she might be right. In fact some nurses have learned tons with former experience seeing other docs, etc ,etc. But they are dogmatic, your role if to make decisions, be a leader, be liable, help in scientific advancement and safely perform medical procedures with the knowledge required to solve any upcoming issue, Nurses job is a supportive one.
Click to expand...

....except that has failed.
 
Kahreek said:
I think best way to proceed, is not to wage propaganda war or try to educate the masses. Just do everything you are supposed to do to defend your patients in your work circle, call out people when you have to and support the administrative decisions that are appropriate. Don't be that guy who takes advice from a nurse, she might be right. In fact some nurses have learned tons with former experience seeing other docs, etc ,etc. But they are dogmatic, your role if to make decisions, be a leader, be liable, help in scientific advancement and safely perform medical procedures with the knowledge required to solve any upcoming issue, Nurses job is a supportive one.
Click to expand...

Yeah gl with that when your own leadership doesn't support you.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

R
Things to buy/do before med school starts
Replies
10
Views
7K
cerebellar
cerebellar
penfish45
I'm about to begin med school... What would you have done differently?
Replies
8
Views
2K
mistafab
mistafab
L
Most unexpected classmates in med school?
Replies
21
Views
5K
ontiquicuo
O
P
UH fertitta medical school
Replies
3
Views
1K
wysdoc
wysdoc
AJS59
Meeting people outside med school during rotations?
Replies
2
Views
2K
AJS59
AJS59