Nursing School Vs Med School, no comparison.

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Of course: since nurses don't diagnose diseases or prescribe medications they don't need to go as much in depth. It's a whole different argument for Nurse Practitioners, but even then, no reasonable individual is going to argue that NPs and MDs have the same level of knowledge or education. They're both excellent and thorough, but still very different. Even in school for CRNA, I would never think that my knowledge is the same as the Anesthesiologists, because I never went to medical school.

In many places NPs and MDs are not doing different things, NPs are practicing medicine, no matter what they try to call it. So you have two people with "excellent, thorough, but very different" educations doing the same job. There's the rub.

*Edit; redacted for being an ass.

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[Nephthys]

I think that the OPs thread was targeted more to that segment of the nursing population who is of the opinion that RN/BSN/NP = MD. It wasn't an attack on nursing competency in general.

I see what you're saying
I'm coming from an area of complete disbelief because I haven't met a single nurse that actually thinks that RN/BSN/NP=MD. Certain NPs think that they know as much as a MD, but the really good ones know that the NP field is best utilized when working in conjunction with an MD. I also know some nurses that think that they know more than doctors about certain things because they've been working 30+ years, but that's usually about petty things. I've never heard a single person ever say that nursing school is comparable to medical school. What really floored me was when the OP said that as a nursing student she thought she knew as much as doctors. Please don't think that the OP saying that is representative of the typical nurse or nursing student.
But I appreciate your viewpoint

 

[repititionition]

Fun fact: I have an immediate family member who is an ANP. At thanksgiving she saw me looking at some of my histology slides, we got to talking, and I in the course of teaching her some things, asked "ok, so fundamentally, what does the pancreas do?".

She had no idea. Nothing. Stammered something about "hormones...."

Now while I would never claim that this is the mean or modal amount of ANP knowledge, the fact that they are even licensing people like this is a CLEAR indicator that any claims of equivalence are both hilarious, terrifying, and a major threat to everything we we as future physicians work for.

ETA: she is also moderately militant re: independent practice, fwiw.

 

[Nephthys]

In many places NPs and MDs are not doing different things, NPs are practicing medicine, no matter what they try to call it. So you have two people with "excellent, thorough, but very different" educations doing the same job. There's the rub.

I'm not very familiar with NPs, but NPs do need to ultimately work under a MD, correct? My personal NP who I go to for general care still works under a MDs license. Additionally, I've seen NPs round in the hospitals with residents so I've often seen them working as a team. Most good nurses with advanced education, whether CRNA or NP recognize that their additional knowledge base is enhanced with MD collaboration. I'm yet to see one who feels that they don't need a team effort to treat the patient.
I also think that as long as the NPs role is specialized and very specific, I don't see the problem. Again, that's my own personal opinion.

 

[Nephthys]

Fun fact: I have an immediate family member who is an ANP. At thanksgiving she saw me looking at some of my histology slides, we got to talking, and I in the course of teaching her some things, asked "ok, so fundamentally, what does the pancreas do?".

She had no idea. Nothing. Stammered something about "hormones...."

Now while I would never claim that this is the mean or modal amount of ANP knowledge, the fact that they are even licensing people like this is a CLEAR indicator that any claims of equivalence are both hilarious, terrifying, and a major threat to everything we we as future physicians work for.

ETA: she is also moderately militant re: independent practice, fwiw.

Yikes!

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I'm not very familiar with NPs, but NPs do need to ultimately work under a MD, correct? My personal NP who I go to for general care still works under a MDs license. Additionally, I've seen NPs round in the hospitals with residents so I've often seen them working as a team. Most good nurses with advanced education, whether CRNA or NP recognize that their additional knowledge base is enhanced with MD collaboration. I'm yet to see one who feels that they don't need a team effort to treat the patient.
I also think that as long as the NPs role is specialized and very specific, I don't see the problem. Again, that's my own personal opinion.

Green states
http://www.aanp.org/legislation-regulation/state-legislation-regulation/state-practice-environment

The nursing lobby is pushing for full autonomy for NPs, has been some quite some time now and has been moderately successful, as you can see.

 

[Nephthys]

Green states
http://www.aanp.org/legislation-regulation/state-legislation-regulation/state-practice-environment

Well, that's a whole different topic. I know that there are many states that allow CRNAs to work independently as well.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Well, that's a whole different topic. I know that there are many states that allow CRNAs to work independently as well.

How so? You said,

I'm not very familiar with NPs, but NPs do need to ultimately work under a MD, correct?

So, I am showing you that that's not correct in many places.

 

[Nephthys]

How so? You said, So, I am showing you that that's not correct in many places.

What I'm trying to do is avoid a major debate that will suck up hours of my time with a person on the internet.
Not that you're not worth it and it wouldn't be fun, but because it's been debated many times ad nauseam. As a CRNA student I have no way of predicting how I will feel about this when I enter into the workforce with my degree. Maybe I will seek out autonomy and work independently or maybe I will work with an anesthesiologist. I realize that theres some die hard nurses out there that firmly believe in absolute autonomy, and then there's others like me who think it needs to be talked about and studied much more for me to have a firm opinion on it. If you were to ask my opinion now, I would say that I'm open to the idea because my NP is very good at what she does and I go to her for general care. If I had a specific health concern, I would go to an MD. The NP that I have is very thorough and runs a tremendous amount of labs every year to make sure that I'm in good health, and she does my yearly physical. She has also prescribed me some medications, and when I went to a MD for an unrelated problem they agreed with the prescriptions. Overall, I don't see a problem with it, but that's based on my experience with a single NP.

Additionally, many of those green states have rural areas which are in dire need of medical care. A NP may be the answer to that problem. I'm just throwing it out there.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

What I'm trying to do is avoid a major debate that will suck up hours of my time with a person on the internet.
Not that you're not worth it and it wouldn't be fun, but because it's been debated many times ad nauseam. As a CRNA student I have no way of predicting how I will feel about this when I enter into the workforce with my degree. Maybe I will seek out autonomy and work independently or maybe I will work with an anesthesiologist. I realize that theres some die hard nurses out there that firmly believe in absolute autonomy, and then there's others like me who think it needs to be talked about and studied much more for me to have a firm opinion on it. If you were to ask my opinion now, I would say that I'm open to the idea because my NP is very good at what she does and I go to her for general care. If I had a specific health concern, I would go to an MD. The NP that I have is very thorough and runs a tremendous amount of labs every year to make sure that I'm in good health, and she does my yearly physical. She has also prescribed me some medications, and when I went to a MD for an unrelated problem they agreed with the prescriptions. Overall, I don't see a problem with it, but that's based on my experience with a single NP.

Additionally, many of those green states have rural areas which are in dire need of medical care. A NP may be the answer to that problem. I'm just throwing it out there.

There's nothing to debate. I claimed that in many places NPs and MDs are doing the same job, that's the rub, as in that's the issue here. You replied that you thought NPs had to be under MDs, I showed you that that's not the case. These are just facts that I've presented.

 

[Nephthys]

T

There's nothing to debate. I claimed that in many places NPs and MDs are doing the same job, that's the rub, as in that's the issue here. You replied that you thought NPs had to be under MDs, I showed you that that's not the case. These are just facts that I've presented.

Sorry, I'm multitasking and I really should've paid more attention to what you wrote. For what it's worth, I live in a red state, and wasn't aware of the NP green states, although they have a similar situation with CRNAs. Personally, with the limited exposure I've had with NP practice I don't see a problem with them providing general care, especially in areas that are very rural. With that being said, I'm not absolute on that and at this point my opinion could sway either way if I researched it. I think that after school I might be more interested in the politics of nursing autonomy, but right now I'm really just focused on getting through and getting a job. At this point in my life I would prefer to work under an anesthesiologist, but if there's a job somewhere which would require me to work independently and I felt comfortable with it, I would consider it.

 

[Nephthys]

I honored my last MicroAnatomy/CellBio/Histo exam!
Do you care? Of course not. And no one on the internet cares how good you think you are at your job. Though, you better be, people's lives are in your hands, right?

Wow, I just read this. I would think that anyone from the Nursing Assistants to the Lab Techs to Housekeeping to Nurses to the Doctors would take pride in doing the very best that they can at their jobs. And yes, peoples lives are in our hands as healthcare professionals. All of us. Something as simple as using sterile techniques or washing hands can affect the patient's wellbeing and healing. What is wrong with you that you have to come across as so aggressive?

PS, believe it or not I actually do give a damn that you did well on your exam. I think that's great of you and you must've studied very hard. I'm glad that you take your job seriously as well.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Eh, nervermind. You seem to be a legitimately nice/good person. So rare here that I didn't even consider that. Apologies.

We get some alpha nurse trolls who like to constantly tell us how damn good they are. It's strange and annoying. This doesn't seem to be your angle though, I jumped the gun.

 

[Nephthys]

What is wrong with you that you have to come off as so insecure? Is it part of Nursing curriculum to always state how good one is at their job? Never mind the absurdity of claiming such a subjective unverifiable claim on an internet message board.

The point I was trying to make is that the OP didn't seem to like to work under physicians and even stated that as a nursing student she thought she knew as much as physicians did. I stated that I'm comfortable not knowing as much as physicians because I know that I'm good at what I do and that confidence allows me to be happy with my job and feel gratified at the end of the day. Therefore, because I'm comfortable with my abilities and overall very happy, I don't have any problems admitting that physicians know much more than I do because in the end that doesn't affect my competency as a nurse.

I really feel like you're picking apart what I say and it's really taking away from the overall message. Yes, I said that I'm very good at my job. I don't see the problem with saying it and using various descriptive words to say it. It's not a sign of insecurity, and it's not a sign of a big ego, it's just me giving myself credit for being the first to arrive and the last to leave at work. I work very hard and therefore am happy with what I do. Big deal.

 

[Nephthys]

Eh, nervermind. You seem to be a legitimately nice/good person. So rare here that I didn't even consider that. Apologies.

We get some alpha nurse trolls who like to constantly tell us how damn good they are. It's strange and annoying. This doesn't seem to be your angle though, I jumped the gun.

Awwww thanks for clearing it up I was wondering what I said wrong, but I do understand that what people say can get really twisted when you're typing it out on the computer. For what it's worth, I'm really liking these forms, and it's very interesting. And I'm sorry you get alpha nurse trolls here. I think the most beautiful trait in any healthcare worker is humility while still giving themselves credit for their hard work, seeing value in everyone, and the love of working as a team. I promise I'm not a troll Great talking to you, and I was being serious when I said that it's great that you did so well on your exams. Keep up the hard work! Back to studying for me

 

[fancymylotus]

Awwww thanks for clearing it up I was wondering what I said wrong, but I do understand that what people say can get really twisted when you're typing it out on the computer. For what it's worth, I'm really liking these forms, and it's very interesting. And I'm sorry you get alpha nurse trolls here. I think the most beautiful trait in any healthcare worker is humility while still giving themselves credit for their hard work, seeing value in everyone, and the love of working as a team. I promise I'm not a troll Great talking to you, and I was being serious when I said that it's great that you did so well on your exams. Keep up the hard work! Back to studying for me

Hrm. You are nice. You can stay and hang out

 

[Nephthys]

Hrm. You are nice. You can stay and hang out

Aw why thank you! These forms are really interesting, so I'm sure I will be hanging around a bit in the near future

 

[Mad Jack]

Awwww thanks for clearing it up I was wondering what I said wrong, but I do understand that what people say can get really twisted when you're typing it out on the computer. For what it's worth, I'm really liking these forms, and it's very interesting. And I'm sorry you get alpha nurse trolls here. I think the most beautiful trait in any healthcare worker is humility while still giving themselves credit for their hard work, seeing value in everyone, and the love of working as a team. I promise I'm not a troll Great talking to you, and I was being serious when I said that it's great that you did so well on your exams. Keep up the hard work! Back to studying for me

You don't need the bolded in every field. You can get by fairly independently in psych, path, derm, and diagnostic rads.

If you're working in a team-based environment though, it is a necessary trait.

So far as seeing value in everyone- that's true more than most people realize in an inpatient environment. If the people who took out the trash in the hospital disappeared, or the people who brought your supplies decided to strike, or the people working the kitchens decided to all quit their jobs, the whole hospital would be ****ed. No one knows how to do their jobs but them. Physicians, nurses, midlevels, CNAs, and admins generally don't even know where the hell the supplies come in, how to order them or process them. Most people have no idea where the trash goes at the end of the day- we make plenty of it, tossing away our gloves and gowns, as we churn through hundreds of dollars worth of other disposable equipment every shift. And without a staff working our kitchen, our patients straight up wouldn't eat unless we made extremely expensive outside arrangements (which are a PITA on the scale many hospitals require, particularly with the specific dietary needs of their patients in which too much sodium can send them from the floors straight to the ICU). Everyone is important, and people that don't recognize that in an inpatient environment will often fare very poorly professionally, as the staff around you can make your life hell if you're a douche.

 

[touchpause13]

Fun fact: I have an immediate family member who is an ANP. At thanksgiving she saw me looking at some of my histology slides, we got to talking, and I in the course of teaching her some things, asked "ok, so fundamentally, what does the pancreas do?".

She had no idea. Nothing. Stammered something about "hormones...."

Now while I would never claim that this is the mean or modal amount of ANP knowledge, the fact that they are even licensing people like this is a CLEAR indicator that any claims of equivalence are both hilarious, terrifying, and a major threat to everything we we as future physicians work for.

ETA: she is also moderately militant re: independent practice, fwiw.

Well that's the scariest thing I've read all day

 

[masaraksh]

Fun fact: I have an immediate family member who is an ANP. At thanksgiving she saw me looking at some of my histology slides, we got to talking, and I in the course of teaching her some things, asked "ok, so fundamentally, what does the pancreas do?".

She had no idea. Nothing. Stammered something about "hormones...."

Now while I would never claim that this is the mean or modal amount of ANP knowledge, the fact that they are even licensing people like this is a CLEAR indicator that any claims of equivalence are both hilarious, terrifying, and a major threat to everything we we as future physicians work for.

ETA: she is also moderately militant re: independent practice, fwiw.

Did she at least know that you don't f*** with the pancreas?

Plz tell me she knew at least that.

 

[Nephthys]

You don't need the bolded in every field. You can get by fairly independently in psych, path, derm, and diagnostic rads.

If you're working in a team-based environment though, it is a necessary trait.

So far as seeing value in everyone- that's true more than most people realize in an inpatient environment. If the people who took out the trash in the hospital disappeared, or the people who brought your supplies decided to strike, or the people working the kitchens decided to all quit their jobs, the whole hospital would be ****ed. No one knows how to do their jobs but them. Physicians, nurses, midlevels, CNAs, and admins generally don't even know where the hell the supplies come in, how to order them or process them. Most people have no idea where the trash goes at the end of the day- we make plenty of it, tossing away our gloves and gowns, as we churn through hundreds of dollars worth of other disposable equipment every shift. And without a staff working our kitchen, our patients straight up wouldn't eat unless we made extremely expensive outside arrangements (which are a PITA on the scale many hospitals require, particularly with the specific dietary needs of their patients in which too much sodium can send them from the floors straight to the ICU). Everyone is important, and people that don't recognize that in an inpatient environment will often fare very poorly professionally, as the staff around you can make your life hell if you're a douche.

I agree with you 100% I've always felt this way as well, but my train of thought always kind of stopped with housekeeping but you are right that the people working in the kitchens or the people who take away the waste are also critical in keeping the hospital running. In the big scheme of things, a hospital takes a wide variety of people to keep it running and working efficiently, and it's important to value everyone. Gah, I'm getting the feels

 

[Nephthys]

Is it wrong to hate nurses before you even start med school? I really hate people who want to be that guy, without putting in the work it takes to be that guy. But nurses calling doctors dumb is just their way of dealing with that massive inferiority complex.





And every field has dynamics like this, enlisted- hate officers in the military, assistant teachers -hate teachers etc. Everybody likes to feel important.

Okay I'm so sorry but I've been reading through this thread because it's so interesting and I have to do one more reply, I'm so sorry!

I think that going into medical school already hating nurses is ultimately only going to have a negative impact on one person: you. The people in that video are dumb and probably were drunk and just being obnoxious. Honestly, they're just embarrassing. Most nurses (as seen in the later responses of the allnurses link) really do care and can be a great resource for you as you go through your medical career. If you go in "hating nurses" you're not going to have a positive experience, and you run a risk of having others perceive it as having a negative attitude.

Almost all the nurses that I've worked with respect doctors, and the attending on my unit is loved by literally everyone. I think the stigma of nurses hating doctors comes from some nurses acting protective of "their patient" and see new residents as having to "prove themselves" in order to be respected.
It's complete nonsense, of course, and any reasonable individual can see that. Eventually those nurses will get over it and while there may be a few minor issues along the way with certain individuals, in my experience it's pretty rare. In my several years of working as an ICU nurse, I only became sassy one time with a resident, and that's because he was very busy and didn't convey compassion during his assessment (I don't know how else to say it) and the result was the patient (a young boy with cancer) pulled the sheets over his head and sobbed after the resident left the room. I know for a fact that the resident didn't do it on purpose, but it did result in quite the tiff (upset nurse and stressed out busy resident) but eventually we were able to resolve it, the resident went in and apologized to the patient, and we held no hard feelings after. That's essentially the extent of problems that I've had.

Long story short, please don't go into medical school already hating an entire group of people because you assume they hate you. There might be a few bumps along the road, but the bottom line is that probably 99% of the nurses out there don't hate you and wish nothing but the best for you.

Ok, I'm done posting. You are all a wonderful group of people. Night!

 

[Undecided84]

I came across this thread by accident. I am studying for a final for nursing school. My classmates and I generally joke about the way the tests are set up and apparently so does most other nursing students as I have found numerous memes. However my curiosity was is it the same across the board for other fields in healthcare. Do med students feel this way too? So I decided to google med school vs nursing school and happened upon this thread. My curiosity wasn't about the material or anything like that just the way testing is set up and if anyone else shared my frustration. I just wanted to clear the air first on why I am even here.

To give some background on myself before any judging or name calling (if this thread is even still alive) happens. I have worked in the medical field for slightly over 10 years as a lowly medical assistant. I have worked outpatient with amazing nurses and physicians over the years. Well mostly working side by side with the physician in the office as the title implies as his/her assistant. At the same time I have also worked with physicians who basically thought they were God and not only down played staff they thought were beneath them but also other physicians as well.

I have also worked with not only NP's but PAs as well. There seems to be no argument for the PAs think they are doctors when in all actuality they are mid levels as well. But honestly of all the mid levels I have worked with they all care about their patients and do what they can in their scope and collaborate with the physician when needed.

For the most part on here from a lot of the posts I have read there seems to be a power struggle between all the levels not just the lower levels wanting to be equal with the higher level. It's actually kind of appalling. We all play a vital role in the patients health and that is the ultimate goal, isn't it? Every person in this field can potentially harm a patients life or make it for the better.

Early life choices and hardships made it impossible for me to consider ever going to med school. Since I love science so much, love to make a difference in a persons life and have an extreme thirst for knowledge, I still chose to find a way that I could achieve that. Now in nursing school with goals of furthering my education to possibly a mid level (which would be more realistic for me due to my personal circumstance). I never thought achieving that would make me equal to a physician but could at least fill the void I had in my life somewhat to do what I really desired which is out of my grasp. It being out of my grasp has nothing to die with ability to get into med school, only the reality of bad choices made in my youth.

Is this not the same arguement of DOs/MDs in the past? Down playing a DO and stating they only went to DO school because they couldn't get into MD school? Maybe for some but not for all. We all have unique reasons for our life's path.

But if there out mid levels or persons of other positions that think they are above or equal to you in their knowledge or practice, why let that bother you unless you are uncertain of your skill? Honestly I haven't really seen these militant mid levels as mentioned and have only encountered a few docs that think their s*** doesn't stink. Mostly when the right personalities are mixed and there is the common thread of what is best for the patient the office runs smooth, all are happy and most importantly the patient is safe.

However I have had this push of professionalism in nursing school and a conflict of where I want to be in my career. What bugs me is that for some reason these nurse associations don't think nursing is a career. Honestly I don't know why. I always thought before school that it was and had respect for nurses. So I don't understand this stance and it seems to stem from half a century ago. However I do agree that nurses should have at least a BSN because you are the one with a patient majority of the time and will most likely be there first when a patient is crashing. Knowledge is paramount and the more knowledge the better.

Even at my lowly position as a medical assistant there have been times I thought the doctor made a mistake on a medication order or maybe the patient told me something because they really like me and realized the doctor might need that tid bit of info after the visit because it may adjust the care plan. Sometimes they missed an allergy and I see it and bring it to their attention. In no way shape or form did or do I ever think because I caught this error that I was better or that the doctor was stupid. It's called team work. Doctors and the likes make mistakes, we are all only human. We can only hope that our counterparts are good enough to catch it before harm is done. Please don't go into the field with negativity. Let's all work happily together to achieve the goal. Teamwork makes the dream work Good luck to you all in your endeavors.

 

[W19]

Fun fact: I have an immediate family member who is an ANP. At thanksgiving she saw me looking at some of my histology slides, we got to talking, and I in the course of teaching her some things, asked "ok, so fundamentally, what does the pancreas do?".

She had no idea. Nothing. Stammered something about "hormones...."

Now while I would never claim that this is the mean or modal amount of ANP knowledge, the fact that they are even licensing people like this is a CLEAR indicator that any claims of equivalence are both hilarious, terrifying, and a major threat to everything we we as future physicians work for.

ETA: she is also moderately militant re: independent practice, fwiw.

You probably don't want to claim that but the true of the matter is that NP is not the exception; he/she is rather the norm. All you have to do is to look at any (or most) NP school curriculum, and you will suddenly realize that it's not his/her fault.

Nurses take a very watered down A&P (anatomy & physiology) and if they want to do NP, that A&P is transferable--meaning they don't have to take anatomy and physiology again in NP school. I also had a nurse who asked me what a mitochondrion is... I did not think she was stupid because I am familiar with the nursing education.

 

[NYCGuy86]

You probably don't want to claim that but the true of the matter is that NP is not the exception; he/she is rather the norm. All you have to do is to look at any (or most) NP school curriculum, and you will suddenly realize that it's not his/her fault.

Nurses take a very watered down A&P (anatomy & physiology) and if they want to do NP, that A&P is transferable--meaning they don't have to take anatomy and physiology again in NP school. I also had a nurse who asked me what a mitochondrion is... I did not think she was stupid because I am familiar with the nursing education.

No, I think that nurse was just stupid. Any nurse should be aware of what a mitochondrion is from high school biology, as well as the undergrad anatomy and physiology courses they have to take. That is very basic. The NP that didn't know what the pancreas does is also just stupid. That is covered not only in the anatomy and physiology courses at the undergrad level, but also in the undergrad pathophysiology and clinical nursing courses (i.e. medical-surgical nursing I and II).

It is correct that most NP programs do not include a graduate level anatomy course (something I endlessly criticize NP programs for, though there are a very small number that do have it), however all NP programs include graduate/advanced coursework in physiology, pathophysiology, pharmacology, and physical assessment, beyond those courses at the undergraduate RN level. Undergrad A&P courses are not accepted for credit in NP programs.

I think that PA school really has the best "midlevel" model for education, along with CRNA, both of which emphasize basic sciences, and have many more clinical hours. While NP programs certainly aren't devoid of science, I personally think they could learn a thing or two from other programs, and the fact that most don't include a graduate anatomy course is beyond me.

I say all this as a second degree BSN student that goes back and forth between considering med school for various reasons, the depth and rigor of the sciences being one of them.

 

[jl lin]

First, as an RN, I'm only saying, an RN that doesn't know what the pancreas does really didn't pay attention is school and/or had no fundamental curiosity or care for what he/she was studying. I mean, I just don't how to respond to that.

But it is true that the same level of intensity and depth in education is not there, even in A&P (non-gross is what is taught in nursing school), microbiology, pathophysiology, which is taught within nursing courses as well as in separate pathophysiology courses. It can be a lot, depending upon the program, but it is not the "firehose" volume and depth that med students and residents, etc, are required to have.

No one with any brain would say that NP education/training is anywhere near that of DO or MD edu/training.
The Cliffs Notes version doesn't cut it with today's more complex patients, which are not few in number.

 

[NontradCA]

First, as an RN, I'm only saying, an RN that doesn't know what the pancreas does really didn't pay attention is school and/or had no fundamental curiosity or care for what he/she was studying. I mean, I just don't how to respond to that.

But it is true that the same level of intensity and depth in education is not there, even in A&P (non-gross is what is taught in nursing school), microbiology, pathophysiology, which is taught within nursing courses as well as in separate pathophysiology courses. It can be a lot, depending upon the program, but it is not the "firehose" volume and depth that med students and residents, etc, are required to have.

No one with any brain would say that NP education/training is anywhere near that of DO or MD edu/training.
The Cliffs Notes version doesn't cut it with today's more complex patients, which are not few in number.

It's not a matter of amount of information. It's a way of thinking. I'm not how sure an RN thinks their "ojt" means anything in the context of being a provider when their role is not to come up with a ddx and plan or management of the patient. It's equivalent to me saying my combat training as a corpsman should allow me to be manage trauma patients coming into the ER. But hey, people are real ****ing idiots.

 

[W19]

No, I think that nurse was just stupid. Any nurse should be aware of what a mitochondrion is from high school biology, as well as the undergrad anatomy and physiology courses they have to take. That is very basic. The NP that didn't know what the pancreas does is also just stupid. That is covered not only in the anatomy and physiology courses at the undergrad level, but also in the undergrad pathophysiology and clinical nursing courses (i.e. medical-surgical nursing I and II).

It is correct that most NP programs do not include a graduate level anatomy course (something I endlessly criticize NP programs for, though there are a very small number that do have it), however all NP programs include graduate/advanced coursework in physiology, pathophysiology, pharmacology, and physical assessment, beyond those courses at the undergraduate RN level. Undergrad A&P courses are not accepted for credit in NP programs.

I think that PA school really has the best "midlevel" model for education, along with CRNA, both of which emphasize basic sciences, and have many more clinical hours. While NP programs certainly aren't devoid of science, I personally think they could learn a thing or two from other programs, and the fact that most don't include a graduate anatomy course is beyond me.

I say all this as a second degree BSN student that goes back and forth between considering med school for various reasons, the depth and rigor of the sciences being one of them.

The ones in FL do not have graduate level physiology courses. One can argue that they incorporate physio into their path class. I don't believe that's the case... I checked some out of state NP schools that don't have physio in their curriculum either... I believe that the ones that do are the exception--not the rule.

 

[Kaustikos]

Man, you guys are harsh.
I think I've found the benefit of nurses and nps.
When you're rounding in the morning, nurses tell you alot about the patient. Things patients won't tell you or you wouldn't think to ask.
Or, in the ED, the nurse assessment in the erm is awesome because they do alot of the hpi.
I've found them to be clutch in certain situations. They have their strengths. You just need to learn how to use them. Don't judge them for not knowing all the science behind things. Instead, use them for their strengths: patient knowledge, know-how of how things work, access to rooms, help with patient care.
Yes, some nurses are mean. But that's not all of them. If you treat them with a certain amount of respect and utilize them for their strengths, then things are way better. I'm not saying bow down to them, but acknowledge that they do have attributes and strengths which will help you tremendously.
The PAs in surgery love it when I asked for help with certain procedures. And I loved it because they helped me look better when I was doing procedures with surgeons.
Nurses tended to like me better when I needed them for help in certain things. I tend to just say "hey, I'm an idiot Med student. Can you help me with X?"

 

[Kaustikos]

I'll also add that if nurses like you, it can help you look better in the eyes of attending.
My family medicine rotation final review: my attending told me how great I was and how much patients and especially staff liked me. He mentioned that to make the point that this kind of behavior will make things so much easier in residency

 

[Psai]

Got some nps running the list with us on inpatient. Sometimes they catch things we missed and remind us. They write some of the notes and put in some orders. Doesn't make them surgeons and I wouldn't want then taking care of patients by themselves but when done correctly, I think that nps are a very valuable part of the team. Nurses are obviously invaluable, just don't happen to be doctors which isn't a bad thing

 

[W19]

Got some nps running the list with us on inpatient. Sometimes they catch things we missed and remind us. They write some of the notes and put in some orders. Doesn't make them surgeons and I wouldn't want then taking care of patients by themselves but when done correctly, I think that nps are a very valuable part of the team. Nurses are obviously invaluable, just don't happen to be doctors which isn't a bad thing

No one was saying they are bad, but if you visit these nursing websites, you will see that most of the NP think their education is on par with physicians'. Did u happen to watch the CRNA rally in Washington D.C. last month?


They use coded sentences such as: 'We get educated side by side'. 'We did our rotations at the same hospitals'. 'Our educational path are different but we learn the same science'. These are the stuff you will see.

Are you dating an NP now?

 

[Psai]

God strike me down if I date anyone with more than two letters behind their name

 

[Kaustikos]

No one was saying they are bad, but if you visit these nursing websites, you will see that most of the NP think their education is on par with physicians'. Did u happen to watch the CRNA rally in Washington D.C. last month?


They use code sentences such as: 'We get educated side by side'. 'We did our rotations at the same hospitals'. 'Our educational path are different but we learn the same science'. These are the stuff you will see.

Are you dating an NP now?

Lol
You mean like visiting doctor sites like this filled with narcissistic egotistical people who think they're god?

 

[W19]

Lol
You mean like visiting doctor sites like this filled with narcissistic egotistical people who think they're god?

After God, it's us.

 

[Kaustikos]

After God, it's us.

So we're Jesus?

 

[jl lin]

The ones in FL do not have graduate level physiology courses. One can argue that they incorporate physio into their path class. I don't believe that's the case... I checked some out of state NP schools that don't have physio in their curriculum either... I believe that the ones that do are the exception--not the rule.

Wow. That's just messed up. Pretty sure some programs around here have to take these. Grad level, as well as grad level biostats.

 

[jl lin]

I've said it before in another thread, but I once saw a pediatric nurse incompetently try to insert a catheter in a baby girl. After some torture and blood she finally asked her friend "Wait a second... how many holes are down here?! Am I even poking around in the right area?" She was also taking online classes towards some type of higher nursing degree (something like a Master's) and her ultimate goal was to be an NP.

My favorite was the NP who was not functional when her phone died and she couldn't use Google or her calculator.

I've worked many places...sure mostly--critical care units. Someone like that generally wouldn't make it through clinical orientation, especially in critical care. Crit care areas are often quick to weed out nurses like that--or in fact weed out someone that is competent but wasn't liked for some reason. The "critical " in critical care areas has more than one meaning. Lol. Most high level centers have a lot of hypercritical nurses too. Seriously, real gunner types. Can't image the RN you described as still being there, unless she was really well liked or had some other issue that would provide some protection for her. Hosp politics can hurt you or help you. It's very relative.

 

[W19]

.

 

[zeppelinpage4]

I see what you're saying
I'm coming from an area of complete disbelief because I haven't met a single nurse that actually thinks that RN/BSN/NP=MD. Certain NPs think that they know as much as a MD, but the really good ones know that the NP field is best utilized when working in conjunction with an MD. I also know some nurses that think that they know more than doctors about certain things because they've been working 30+ years, but that's usually about petty things. I've never heard a single person ever say that nursing school is comparable to medical school. What really floored me was when the OP said that as a nursing student she thought she knew as much as doctors. Please don't think that the OP saying that is representative of the typical nurse or nursing student.
But I appreciate your viewpoint

I've had the same experience. Most non-MDs (nurses, PAs etc) I have interacted with seem to work within their scope and collaborate as a team with physicians. In most cases I haven't seen any friction between MDs and other providers. This might vary geographically, but where I've been, there definitely seems to be a more collaborative environment, not an aggressive one. Hopefully that remains.

My belief, 80% of physicians are nice folks who are there to do their job and help people, 80% nurses are nice folks who are there to do their job and help people. There's no agression, just collaboration.
Then there's the a minority from each group that just wrecks **** i.e. the examples being discussed here.

Also, just an idea but I always held the belief that nursing is not better or worse, it is a different field with a different scope of practice, and different philosophies that makes nursing special. I imagine, the good nurses embrace their field and work within their scope the best they can, alongside physicians who have their own scope and areas of expertise. These nurses that try to be like MDs...aren't they, in a way, turning they're back on their own profession and making it seem inferior? Even though, in reality, nursing isn't inferior at all, it's just different?

 

[hallowmann]

What is this thread? Its insane. It also appears to have attracted the strangest posters I've seen in quite some time (cough cough zenman, et al).

 

[Doctor Kiwi]

As someone who is about to complete medical school, and who went through nursing school for a BSN, the knowledge gap between the two is exponential. In light of recent arguments made by militant nurses who argue that the required nursing courses to complete an associates degree or BSN is just as good as medical school. First you take an A&P, 101 course on microbiology, a introductory 12 week course in "orgo/gen chem, Biochem" all combined superficially in 12 weeks, 12 week course in Pathophysiology 101. Looking back those courses, they were very superficial at the amount of knowledge required to pass. Those science courses were no where near the complexity that medical schools dig into, where things get broken down into the mechanism of protein structures that allow them to function a certain way. With out understanding the complexities of the inner workings of what actually occur at the cellular level, you can't begin to understand what went wrong when the ALGORITHM they are trained to follow doesn't go according to plan. Then comes the nursing courses, and the "clinicals" that they do. The actual nursing courses were good enough to understand and complete NURSING tasks. They were not good enough to treat and effectively manage complex disease, but when I was a nursing student at that time I thought I knew just as much as a doctor, and I was dead wrong. The clinicals were a joke, you passed out meds,maybe gave a few injections, changed wet diapers on incontinent patients, and followed the orders given by the doctor. I am all about advanced education, but there is NO DIFFERENCE in the fundamental knowledge between a RN VS BSN other than some "nursing research courses and fluff to get fancy titles like clinical nurse specialist, or infection control specialist" but the core principles are EXACTLY THE SAME. So when they claim they have a BSN not an associates in nursing, there is NO difference, and I dare you to find me a BSN who would say there is. Something else that ticks me off I hear from nurses trying to be MD's is " I have 15+ years in the ICU, ER, or MED/SURG floor," that counts as more education like a residency. Good for you! But, when I worked as a nurses assistant for 5+ years I didn't claim to know or be equivalent to a RN just because I saw what they did, and helped them carry out orders. How would NURSES like it if LPN's claimed to be EQUIVALENT to RN's/BSN's? Probably wouldn't go well. I am not knocking down the profession of nursing, what I am annoyed with is NURSES/NP's claiming to be equivalent to MD's. You are not, you were trained in the NURSING SCOPE of practice. I love nurses, yes I would trust a seasoned ICU nurse's opinion vs a Freshly minted MD out of med school in July as an Intern, but I guarantee that by the end of 3-4 months of intern year, his knowledge base will increase exponentialy to surpass that of any ICU nurse due to his knowledge base gained from 8 years of education that doesn't stop during residency, and now applying it daily as a intern. So nurses I beg you to please just work within your scope as a nurse, and stop trying to claim equivelancy through studies "propaganda" funded by the militant nurses association.

You absolutely read my mind

 

[Doctor Kiwi]

This is just another example of their mediocre knowledge. Haven't they heard of something called the generic name of a drug? If she said flumazenil any doctor would have got it. The problem is she has no idea what flumazenil is, nor that romazicon IS flumazenil. They think it's the actual drug name . So blissful in their ignorance and lack of knowledge. It's truly not worth arguing with them.

 

[Mad Jack]

Over a year and 14 pages later, all I've got to say is

 

[jl lin]

It was actually a rural pediatric office, so I am sure she is still there. She was certainly lower on the skill/knowledge level, but she wasn't really an extreme outlier.

Yea, that's scary. Sadly I wonder if we will be seeing more and more of this. The caliber of nurses seems to be dropping. Thankfully, I worked with some awesome nurses. As I said, however, CC can be a tough, and I have worked in really great places, so. . .

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

This is just another example of their mediocre knowledge. Haven't they heard of something called the generic name of a drug? If she said flumazenil any doctor would have got it. The problem is she has no idea what flumazenil is, nor that romazicon IS flumazenil. They think it's the actual drug name . So blissful in their ignorance and lack of knowledge. It's truly not worth arguing with them.

I'm pretty sure I would have looked at her funny too considering I've never been taught the brand name of flumazenil (maybe heard it sometime?) and it's taught in literally every medical/pharm textbook everywhere as flumazenil.

Fight the system, don't buy into the drug company brainwashing man.

 

[W19]

Yea, that's scary. Sadly I wonder if we will be seeing more and more of this. The caliber of nurses seems to be dropping. Thankfully, I worked with some awesome nurses. As I said, however, CC can be a tough, and I have worked in really great places, so. . .

When are you starting med school?

 

[Kaustikos]

This is just another example of their mediocre knowledge. Haven't they heard of something called the generic name of a drug? If she said flumazenil any doctor would have got it. The problem is she has no idea what flumazenil is, nor that romazicon IS flumazenil. They think it's the actual drug name . So blissful in their ignorance and lack of knowledge. It's truly not worth arguing with them.

Uh... There are a lot of physicians that use brand names and don't know generics. It's how they were trained. Some of them even look at ME weird if I don't know brand names.

 

[Kaustikos]

Yea, that's scary. Sadly I wonder if we will be seeing more and more of this. The caliber of nurses seems to be dropping. Thankfully, I worked with some awesome nurses. As I said, however, CC can be a tough, and I have worked in really great places, so. . .

Doubtful. The expectations and requirements from nurses is actually increasing, despite what people think. They're working longer hours and some nurses have no jobs.
Though this is from where I am. Had a fairly recent lay off where 200+ nurses were let go and the remaining ones had double the workload. I felt bad for them. Especially the OR nurses. It was essentially deal with it or be replaced by someone else who'd be willing to suffer what they do. And it impacts physicians, too.

 

[jl lin]

When are you starting med school?

Hi W19.

Yea, so I'm shooting for 2017.