Nursing School Vs Med School, no comparison.

[evilbooyaa]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

Well those are just two out of many threads and from several years ago. But I was pretty impressed by the insight that they showed and it changed my mind a little.

Reading those threads make me realize it truly is the most vocal of the minority that is clamoring for policy change. Sounds like the rest of politics.

That being said, most of the people are probably RNs on that forum. Would they have the same thought process if they were NPs (or god-forbid, DNPs?)

 

[touchpause13]

Honestly I've always had really good experiences with RNs. Had a very snippy LPN once in a nursing home who told me she "hated doctors" and said that she was so much smarter than them. 🙄

Some people are just angry, and want to project their problems in life on others. I don't think that representative of the field as a whole.

 

[Doudline]

Fairly certain this wasn't meant to be a serious argument, but just in case......

Most students watching lectures online at 2x speed are still doing many things "in real life." For example, not many of us advise skipping anatomy lab. And even though small group stuff tends to get a bad rep., there are a lot of useful small group sessions at my school. It's how they teach us the history and the physical.

I dislike PBL, but this also requires a person to be present, and is heavily used at many schools.

And that's just the first two years...I think the clinical years speak for themselves; they obviously cannot be replicated online.

That wasn't my point though.

Clinical training during the NP degree is not a requirement, so they do not miss out on anything more than a preclinical medical student does by not attending class.

(You're right though, not all medical students skip classes altogether... just like 99% of NP degrees aren't given online.)

 

[DH410]

That wasn't my point though.

Clinical training during the NP degree is not a requirement, so they do not miss out on anything more than a preclinical medical student does by not attending class.

(You're right though, not all medical students skip classes altogether... just like 99% of NP degrees aren't given online.)

I apologize if I read too much into your comment, or misinterpreted it. It seemed to me you were saying that watching class online made the first two years equivalent to online learning: I wanted to point out that there are other aspects of our education which remain firmly offline.

To clarify my own statement, I was not commenting on anything to do with nursing or nursing degrees (which pretty much makes my comment the definition of derailing).

I am also not saying that online education is necessarily lower quality: it depends how it is done, and how the results are tested. I personally watch the lectures at home about a 1/3 of the time...I don't feel like I lose out on too much by sitting silently at home as opposed to silently in a lecture hall. It's difficult when you have a question though.

 

[FutureInternist]

That's like a 10 year old claiming that she can drive a car because she grew up driving tractors around the farm.

Nice!! I am going to steal this !!

 

[BANGO]

..

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

I think the biggest problem is that people confuse level of training with raw intelligence (both doctors and nurses do this). Some physicians think they are a more intelligent life form than others b/c they went to medical school whereas the truth is that they only have the rights of a physician b/c they worked very hard to obtain them through their medical training. The whole smart folks become doctors and the dumb folks become nurses cannot be further from the truth. We all struggle equally with the same doorknobs, rubik's cubes, etc.

This is true, but the truth still remains that medical school is more rigorous than NP school. But, I do agree, that being intelligent and getting through medical school are 2 different things. Medical school just takes more determination and will to get through.

I am sure that there are nurses that could have easily gone to medical school, but chose not to, and it was not related to "being less intelligent." I'm sure Einstein with his IQ and all could not treat a patient medically with out having gone through medical school. Which is my original point, that physician training doesn't compare to NP training when comes claiming equivalency.

 

[BANGO]

..

 

[nathansackett]

I too am a nurse who is now in medical school. It is silly to compare nursing education and medical education. It is like apples and oranges. Both disciplines are important, both help patients, but they fundamentally speak different languages, with different cultural views, attitudes and norms.

Healthcare will benefit immensely when this divide can be narrowed and each can respect the other. There is enough ego BS in healthcare. Making friends with people in all disciplines makes for better care and a better work environment.

 

[Kale01]

This thread reads like a circle jerk fest. Unless you guys get one of the harder specialties, it doesn't seem like being a doctor is all that different from being a nurse. You deal with the same bs, have to do the same gross tasks, etc. And your salaries probably aren't that far off.

 

[Winged Scapula]

This thread reads like a circle jerk fest. Unless you guys get one of the harder specialties, it doesn't seem like being a doctor is all that different from being a nurse. You deal with the same bs, have to do the same gross tasks, etc. And your salaries probably aren't that far off.

This is grossly inaccurate.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

This is grossly inaccurate.

Like.

 

[allojay]

I too am a nurse who is now in medical school. It is silly to compare nursing education and medical education. It is like apples and oranges. Both disciplines are important, both help patients, but they fundamentally speak different languages, with different cultural views, attitudes and norms.

Healthcare will benefit immensely when this divide can be narrowed and each can respect the other. There is enough ego BS in healthcare. Making friends with people in all disciplines makes for better care and a better work environment.

I completely agree! It's really hard to compare the two. Both aim to help patients, but are definitely two different languages. I'll be honest and admit that a medical school tends to be more 'in depth' and the clinical training is significantly longer. One is better than the other but they're both two pieces of a puzzle that is healthcare.

 

[Psai]

This thread reads like a circle jerk fest. Unless you guys get one of the harder specialties, it doesn't seem like being a doctor is all that different from being a nurse. You deal with the same bs, have to do the same gross tasks, etc. And your salaries probably aren't that far off.

I'm guessing that you're not a doctor or a nurse.

 

[touchpause13]

I'm going to go with troll. Because they are sooo far off

 

[evilbooyaa]

This thread reads like a circle jerk fest. Unless you guys get one of the harder specialties, it doesn't seem like being a doctor is all that different from being a nurse. You deal with the same bs, have to do the same gross tasks, etc. And your salaries probably aren't that far off.

lol.

Never has non-student been so accurate. Congrats on your ignorance.

 

[Patassa]

This thread reads like a circle jerk fest. Unless you guys get one of the harder specialties, it doesn't seem like being a doctor is all that different from being a nurse. You deal with the same bs, have to do the same gross tasks, etc. And your salaries probably aren't that far off.

Solid post, "non-student". 👍

What's a "harder specialty", you talkin Urology?

 

[mcloaf]

This thread reads like a circle jerk fest. Unless you guys get one of the harder specialties, it doesn't seem like being a doctor is all that different from being a nurse. You deal with the same bs, have to do the same gross tasks, etc. And your salaries probably aren't that far off.

 

[Zenman1]

As someone who is about to complete medical school, and who went through nursing school for a BSN, the knowledge gap between the two is exponential.

So, how long did it take for you to figure out that the knowledge gap between 4 yrs of schooling and 8 yrs is exponential?

In light of recent arguments made by militant nurses who argue that the required nursing courses to complete an associates degree or BSN is just as good as medical school.

You've really heard this...that an ADN and BSN is as good as medical school? Are you talking to idiots?

First you take an A&P, 101 course on microbiology, a introductory 12 week course in "orgo/gen chem, Biochem" all combined superficially in 12 weeks, 12 week course in Pathophysiology 101. Looking back those courses, they were very superficial at the amount of knowledge required to pass. Those science courses were no where near the complexity that medical schools dig into, where things get broken down into the mechanism of protein structures that allow them to function a certain way. With out understanding the complexities of the inner workings of what actually occur at the cellular level, you can't begin to understand what went wrong when the ALGORITHM they are trained to follow doesn't go according to plan.

Did you expect science courses in nursing school to be as difficult as the ones in medical school? I'm a Psych NP, and while my field is different than you hard-core medical types, I can tell you I never use an algorithm when treating patients, unless it's the results of the STEP study. While you look into the microscope and try to figure out what's happening via a reductionistic approach, I look through the other end and try to see the bigger and more complete picture.

Then comes the nursing courses, and the "clinicals" that they do. The actual nursing courses were good enough to understand and complete NURSING tasks. They were not good enough to treat and effectively manage complex disease, but when I was a nursing student at that time I thought I knew just as much as a doctor, and I was dead wrong.

Frankly, the delusion that you felt you knew as much as a physician was just that. You really thought the nursing courses were designed to "treat and effectively manage complex disease." Jeez....

The clinicals were a joke, you passed out meds,maybe gave a few injections, changed wet diapers on incontinent patients, and followed the orders given by the doctor. I am all about advanced education, but there is NO DIFFERENCE in the fundamental knowledge between a RN VS BSN other than some "nursing research courses and fluff to get fancy titles like clinical nurse specialist, or infection control specialist" but the core principles are EXACTLY THE SAME. So when they claim they have a BSN not an associates in nursing, there is NO difference, and I dare you to find me a BSN who would say there is.

I taught in both ADN and BSN schools. The BSN students were taught to manage the more complex patients. They were also taught research, management, and social forces...all of which is very valuable to know.

Something else that ticks me off I hear from nurses trying to be MD's is " I have 15+ years in the ICU, ER, or MED/SURG floor," that counts as more education like a residency. Good for you! But, when I worked as a nurses assistant for 5+ years I didn't claim to know or be equivalent to a RN just because I saw what they did, and helped them carry out orders. How would NURSES like it if LPN's claimed to be EQUIVALENT to RN's/BSN's? Probably wouldn't go well. I am not knocking down the profession of nursing, what I am annoyed with is NURSES/NP's claiming to be equivalent to MD's. You are not, you were trained in the NURSING SCOPE of practice. I love nurses, yes I would trust a seasoned ICU nurse's opinion vs a Freshly minted MD out of med school in July as an Intern, but I guarantee that by the end of 3-4 months of intern year, his knowledge base will increase exponentialy to surpass that of any ICU nurse due to his knowledge base gained from 8 years of education that doesn't stop during residency, and now applying it daily as a intern. So nurses I beg you to please just work within your scope as a nurse, and stop trying to claim equivelancy through studies "propaganda" funded by the militant nurses association.

I guess you realize this post is rambling about ADN vs BSN vs physicians and it's difficult to get a clear picture of the intent behind it.

I hope I have time to read the rest of this thread just for the fun of it.

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

So, how long did it take for you to figure out that the knowledge gap between 4 yrs of schooling and 8 yrs is exponential?



You've really heard this...that an ADN and BSN is as good as medical school? Are you talking to idiots?



Did you expect science courses in nursing school to be as difficult as the ones in medical school? I'm a Psych NP, and while my field is different than you hard-core medical types, I can tell you I never use an algorithm when treating patients, unless it's the results of the STEP study. While you look into the microscope and try to figure out what's happening via a reductionistic approach, I look through the other end and try to see the bigger and more complete picture.



Frankly, the delusion that you felt you knew as much as a physician was just that. You really thought the nursing courses were designed to "treat and effectively manage complex disease." Jeez....




I taught in both ADN and BSN schools. The BSN students were taught to manage the more complex patients. They were also taught research, management, and social forces...all of which is very valuable to know.




I guess you realize this post is rambling about ADN vs BSN vs physicians and it's difficult to get a clear picture of the intent behind it.

I hope I have time to read the rest of this thread just for the fun of it.

Read the thread, you clearly missed the point by a mile. I think it's been beat down already, so I'll spare SDN.

 

[DermViser]

That wasn't my point though.

Clinical training during the NP degree is not a requirement, so they do not miss out on anything more than a preclinical medical student does by not attending class.

(You're right though, not all medical students skip classes altogether... just like 99% of NP degrees aren't given online.)

But they get a WHOLE lot of propaganda and talking points thrown at them by their faculty. Why do you think Nursing as a whole, is much better at the political game than physicians are? They start early. They don't put their heads in the sand expecting that everything will be ok. Their scope of practice has expanded due to effective legislative battles at the local state level.

 

[DermViser]

Read the thread, you clearly missed the point by a mile. I think it's been beat down already, so I'll spare SDN.

Well she said, "While you look into the microscope and try to figure out what's happening via a reductionistic approach, I look through the other end and try to see the bigger and more complete picture", so she's actually missed the point in light years, not just miles.

http://nursingknowledge.wordpress.com/2009/11/01/reductionism-and-holism-three-varieties-part-1/ = more nursing theory garbage.

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

Well she said, "While you look into the microscope and try to figure out what's happening via a reductionistic approach, I look through the other end and try to see the bigger and more complete picture", so she's actually missed the point in light years, not just miles.

http://nursingknowledge.wordpress.com/2009/11/01/reductionism-and-holism-three-varieties-part-1/ = more nursing theory garbage.

"Classical empiricism is reductionist in the epistemological sense. Empiricists hold that all knowledge arises from experience." <-----? What? I just found that as I read through that article. If I know one thing for certain, it's for sure that no matter how much I "watch/experience" it does not replace knowledge and understanding.

THE whole point about you failing to look through a microscope in order to step back and look at the whole picture is a backwards way of learning things. In order to understand the "big picture" one must understand "what's going on at the microscopic level."

 

[DermViser]

"Classical empiricism is reductionist in the epistemological sense. Empiricists hold that all knowledge arises from experience." <-----? What? I just found that as I read through that article. If I know one thing for certain, it's for sure that no matter how much I "watch/experience" it does not replace knowledge and understanding.

THE whole point about you failing to look through a microscope in order to step back and look at the whole picture is a backwards way of learning things. In order to understand the "big picture" one must understand "what's going on at the microscopic level."

"Holistic" in nursing speak is professional gobbledy-gook. It's a way to somehow contrast the "nursing approach" on how to approach a patient vs. the "physician approach". It's a feel good term that means absolutely nothing. The same way how DNPs say they "spend more time with a patient" or look at the patient, as a "whole".
Like I said, I believe all of this is more being spearheaded by the vocal minority DNP leadership when it comes to wanting to practice independently, rather than Nurse Practitioners on the ground: hence the push REQUIRING a Doctorate in Nursing by 2015(?) rather than a Masters which it is right now. It's nothing more than degree creep.

It's no different than when PTs became DPTs, or RPhs became PharmDs. Creating a "Doctorate" is a well known trick to charge high fees and try to "professionalize" a degree path.

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

But they get a WHOLE lot of propaganda and talking points thrown at them by their faculty. Why do you think Nursing as a whole, is much better at the political game than physicians are? They start early. They don't put their heads in the sand expecting that everything will be ok. Their scope of practice has expanded due to effective legislative battles at the local state level.

Americas little secret, many patients are misinformed and assume the person in the white coat is a physician. If given the option, I think we know who patients would prefer to see. We don't don't need more lobbying, we need more patients to be informed as to who is looking over their care. The physician brand doesn't need selling to the general public. If patients are okay with a physician extender/mid-level, so be it. I'll say this again, the day congress has their child delivered by a Midwife, follow up cardiac care with a NP, anesthesia given by a nurse anesthetist, that will be the day I'll say training doesn't make a difference.

 

[DermViser]

Americas little secret, many patients are misinformed and assume the person in the white coat is a physician. If given the option, I think we know who patients would prefer to see. We don't don't need more lobbying, we need more patients to be informed as to who is looking over their care. The physician brand doesn't need selling to the general public. If patients are okay with a physician extender/mid-level, so be it. I'll say this again, the day congress has their child delivered by a Midwife, follow up cardiac care with a NP, anesthesia given by a nurse anesthetist, that will be the day I'll say training doesn't make a difference.

We DO need more lobbying when those who set the rules aren't patients themselves but legislators, who don't have the best interest of the patient at heart. State legislators can redefine scope of practice. That doesn't mean anything for the legislator himself/herself who will ALWAYS be seen by a physician. It's for the "unwashed masses".

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2011/11...-nurse-anesthetist-threat-patient-safety.html
President Clinton (whose mother was a nurse anesthetist) signed into law in 2001 a rule that permits states to “opt out” of the CMS requirement for nurse anesthetists to be supervised by a physician. Sixteen states—unfortunately including my own state of California—have adopted this rule to date. While it was originally intended to help rural areas improve access to care, the “opt out” rule supports any hospital that seeks to cut costs by allowing nurse anesthetists to work alone.

By signing the “opt out” rule, President Clinton apparently meant that anesthesia care by a nurse anesthetist working without supervision is all right for you and for other people. When Clinton himself needed heart surgery, a physician specializing in cardiac anesthesiology headed his anesthesia team. The same was true of Governor Schwarzenegger, who signed the letter in 2009 allowing the state of California to opt out of physician supervision of nurse anesthetists. When he needed surgery, a board-certified anesthesiologist personally provided his anesthesia from start to finish.

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

We DO need more lobbying when those who set the rules aren't patients themselves but legislators, who don't have the best interest of the patient at heart. State legislators can redefine scope of practice. That doesn't mean anything for the legislator himself/herself who will ALWAYS be seen by a physician. It's for the "unwashed masses".

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2011/11...-nurse-anesthetist-threat-patient-safety.html
President Clinton (whose mother was a nurse anesthetist) signed into law in 2001 a rule that permits states to “opt out” of the CMS requirement for nurse anesthetists to be supervised by a physician. Sixteen states—unfortunately including my own state of California—have adopted this rule to date. While it was originally intended to help rural areas improve access to care, the “opt out” rule supports any hospital that seeks to cut costs by allowing nurse anesthetists to work alone.

By signing the “opt out” rule, President Clinton apparently meant that anesthesia care by a nurse anesthetist working without supervision is all right for you and for other people. When Clinton himself needed heart surgery, a physician specializing in cardiac anesthesiology headed his anesthesia team. The same was true of Governor Schwarzenegger, who signed the letter in 2009 allowing the state of California to opt out of physician supervision of nurse anesthetists. When he needed surgery, a board-certified anesthesiologist personally provided his anesthesia from start to finish.

I know what your saying, but what I think physician should do is push a campaign explaining the differences in training. The public needs to be informed, that should be the first goal. We can lobby congress all day, but as long as the general public is misinformed they won't make any changes, and it will be business as usual. The AMA has done a poor job at lobbying thus far. Now you have a bunch of segmented physician interest lobbying groups that are not united in a common goal, diluting physician lobbying power.

 

[DermViser]

I know what your saying, but what I think physician should do is push a campaign explaining the differences in training. The public needs to be informed, that should be the first goal. We can lobby congress all day, but as long as the general public is misinformed they won't make any changes, and it will be business as usual. The AMA has done a poor job at lobbying thus far. Now you have a bunch of segmented physician interest lobbying groups that are not united in a common goal, diluting physician lobbying power.

Nurses have an effective lobbying apparatus which entails: grassroots on the ground lobbying both at the state and federal level, speaking as one voice rather than a cacaphony of different ones, and loads of money to bribe lobby legislators, as nurses tend to be unionized and can collect union dues.

 

[Zenman1]

Read the thread, you clearly missed the point by a mile. I think it's been beat down already, so I'll spare SDN.

I have a critical eye for detail so enlighten me. You see that I quoted you so maybe your point is hidden somewhere. You're rambling all over the place talking about ADN vs BSN education and you're wrong there. You're talking about militant BSN nurses who think they are better than physicians. I've never heard one BSN nurse say that and I have 43 yrs experience. Not saying there is not one somewhere, but where is the uprising? I do hear physicians complain about the militant NPs. You talk about "advanced education." Are you thinking the BSN is "advanced education" or NP education? NPs are "advanced practice" nurses. So is your main point that you are annoyed that nurses/NPs are claiming to be equivalent to MDs? Is that your main point after all the prior rambling? Then at the very end, you state, "please work within your scope as a nurse." Are you talking about nurses here or NPs? Don't make a post if you don't expect someone like me to take the time and challenge you. Now, I'm going to go throughout this thread post by post just to play.

 

[Zenman1]

Well she said, "While you look into the microscope and try to figure out what's happening via a reductionistic approach, I look through the other end and try to see the bigger and more complete picture", so she's actually missed the point in light years, not just miles.

http://nursingknowledge.wordpress.com/2009/11/01/reductionism-and-holism-three-varieties-part-1/ = more nursing theory garbage.

I a man, and a big one, by the way and I didn't miss a thing with my comment. You may get it at some point. I don't have time to read the link but I hope you are aware that all "professional" professions are theory driven. Do you have one?

 

[dr zaius]

Talk about rambling...

 

[Zenman1]

"Classical empiricism is reductionist in the epistemological sense. Empiricists hold that all knowledge arises from experience." <-----? What? I just found that as I read through that article. If I know one thing for certain, it's for sure that no matter how much I "watch/experience" it does not replace knowledge and understanding.

THE whole point about you failing to look through a microscope in order to step back and look at the whole picture is a backwards way of learning things. In order to understand the "big picture" one must understand "what's going on at the microscopic level."

In my area you can know all there is to know about the brain, right down to microscopic level, which isn't a whole lot. So you hypothesize that certain behaviors originate in one area of the brain. Then you take a drug which hypothetically works on that part of the brain. Then, you start finding out one drug works great for one patient, and kills another. That's where you better turn that microscope around. And how do you know what you are studying is correct? Dr. John Ioannidis – world’s foremost expert on credibility of medical research says:

•90% of published medical information that we rely on is false
•80% of non-randomized (most common) studies turn out to be wrong
•25% of gold-standard randomized trials are wrong
•10% of platinum-standard trials are wrong

The British Medical Journal, and I believe the editor of NEJM, have recently basically said that most published medical research is hardly worth the toilet paper it's written on.

 

[Zenman1]

Talk about rambling...

Answer the question if you can. If you can't go back into hiding.

 

[Zenman1]

I was really hoping for more conversation on the matter. Obviously I agree with OP. NP education is a joke compared to medical school. My god though, tell them that to their faces and the indoctrinated crap you hear in response...

I'll be glad to give you more conversation, bud. Oh, was NP education supposed to be like medical school? BTW, I know one physician who says medical school was a joke compared to her BS in basic physics. And you can't hold a candle to those astrophysicists either. So what's the point?

 

[Zenman1]

If NPs want the same scope of practice, etc as a family practice doctor, they should be required to take the Step 1/2/3. If they want the same job, they should have to take the same exams.

Seriously? Exams are the defining factor? My boss just got back from taking his revert boards. He said it was "the most antiquated exam written by a non-practicing ivory tower physician." I think he said the pass rate was almost 100%. Nice money-making gig for someone!

 

[Zenman1]

You've obviously never worked with a decent clinical pharmacist. We have pharmacists who round with us and save our butts more often than not.

We get polypharm consults on anyone with 4 or more meds. It's just good practice as the pharmacists can sometimes pick up on something you've missed.

 

[dr zaius]

I'll be glad to give you more conversation, bud. Oh, was NP education supposed to be like medical school? BTW, I know one physician who says medical school was a joke compared to her BS in basic physics. And you can't hold a candle to those astrophysicists either. So what's the point?

And the day physicists come into the hospital demanding to be called doctor and attempt to provide patient care autonomously we will discuss them.

You clearly don't understand the obvious theme of this thread despite your self proclaimed keen attention to detail. Maybe if you read the thread more thoroughly you would understand.

 

[GUH]

Seriously? Exams are the defining factor? My boss just got back from taking his revert boards. He said it was "the most antiquated exam written by a non-practicing ivory tower physician." I think he said the pass rate was almost 100%. Nice money-making gig for someone!

You become a real medical doctor by completing medical training and passing medical board exams.
You become a nurse by completing nursing training and passing nursing board exams.

 

[Zenman1]

I'm not saying doctors don't miss things, but in the court of law, it would be MD vs MD, and the MD can argue standard of care. The standard of care is not using NPs to treat cancer, which they can easily miss. We might save money short term, but when we see all the crazy tests NPs order, sometimes wrongly, and lawsuits like the one above, this little experiment will run wild on the media headlines, and back the Physicians come, but this time society will learn the cost of having well trained Physician.

Check New Mexico as NPs there have had 21 years of independent practice. When I was there I never saw that the state was crashing.

 

[Zenman1]

It's really bull****. The nurses I know that went the NP or CRNA route, when asked "if you want to practice independently, why don't you go to medical school?" would give me one of two answers. The first, was "I don't want all of the responsibility that physicians have. I want to work a 9-5 and go home," while the other group would generally answer, "I am too busy/too lazy/too impatient to go to medical school." So you basically end up with one group that wants a full scope of practice without a full scope of responsibility or education, while the other group wants a full scope of practice and full responsibility without a full education. I'm sure there are people that fall outside of these two particular groups, but the vast majority of nurses I know that are taking (part time!) APRN courses fall into one or the other. That physicians are losing their place at the top of the medical hierarchy to a group of underqualified caregivers that lack the dedication and sacrifice required to go through medical school and residency is depressing to say the least.

First, I do have the same responsibility that the physicians in my workplace have, except for one that also runs a suboxone clinic and one that sees children and adolescents. I do work 0730-1630 and off every weekend. I'm on call about every 3-4 months. I make well over $100,000. This morning I saw 2 patients in a walk-in clinic and my afternoon was filled with 5 of my regular patients. Total of 7 patients today. Sweet and smart, eh? I know you don't want me to tell you my masters in psych nursing was all paid for plus I got $800 a month. I paid cash for my MBA and only had around 10K in student loans for my Psych NP. Then, since I wasn't going to med school and residency, I was able to be an Army medic, helicopter flight nurse, work in a Level I, and get all kinds of valuable experience in other areas. I didn't want to be like the retired thoracic surgeon that went to business school with me who said he was totally useless outside the OR. So I traveled to 15 countries, lived in Bangladesh and Thailand, and spent around 8 years studying with a medical anthropologist and psychologist with Q'ero Indians in Peru and Shipibo shamans in the Amazon. That must be why I didn't become a physician.

You seem surprised by part-time courses. While you were cramming like mad, and probably sleep deprived, I had time to see patients, then spend a lot of time learning everything, and retain it, I could about their condition.

This is a long thread but fun….

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

You become a real medical doctor by completing medical training and passing medical board exams.
You become a nurse by completing nursing training and passing nursing board exams.

Epic post hahaha. Some people are really good in Physics, others at medicine, and other at nursing. I don't plan on on trying to find the next super nova, as I'm sure a physicist doesn't plan on managing your HTN.

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

First, I do have the same responsibility that the physicians in my workplace have, except for one that also runs a suboxone clinic and one that sees children and adolescents. I do work 0730-1630 and off every weekend. I'm on call about every 3-4 months. I make well over $100,000. This morning I saw 2 patients in a walk-in clinic and my afternoon was filled with 5 of my regular patients. Total of 7 patients today. Sweet and smart, eh? I know you don't want me to tell you my masters in psych nursing was all paid for plus I got $800 a month. I paid cash for my MBA and only had around 10K in student loans for my Psych NP. Then, since I wasn't going to med school and residency, I was able to be an Army medic, helicopter flight nurse, work in a Level I, and get all kinds of valuable experience in other areas. I didn't want to be like the retired thoracic surgeon that went to business school with me who said he was totally useless outside the OR. So I traveled to 15 countries, lived in Bangladesh and Thailand, and spent around 8 years studying with a medical anthropologist and psychologist with Q'ero Indians in Peru and Shipibo shamans in the Amazon. That must be why I didn't become a physician.

You seem surprised by part-time courses. While you were cramming like mad, and probably sleep deprived, I had time to see patients, then spend a lot of time learning everything, and retain it, I could about their condition.

This is a long thread but fun….

Cool story bro. A lot of my classmates and former classmates had jobs before medicine. In my class, there had to be about 50% who were the traditional straight out of college type. Most of them had prior jobs (nursing, MPH, PhD, pharmacist, engineers, teachers, military medics, paramedics) just to name a few. So your experience is not special in the realm of physicians. So, what's your point? That your experience as a nurse is equal to the rigors of medical school? I'm not discrediting your value in healthcare. Your practice of nursing is highly valued, but it's no substitute for a physician.

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

In my area you can know all there is to know about the brain, right down to microscopic level, which isn't a whole lot. So you hypothesize that certain behaviors originate in one area of the brain. Then you take a drug which hypothetically works on that part of the brain. Then, you start finding out one drug works great for one patient, and kills another. That's where you better turn that microscope around. And how do you know what you are studying is correct? Dr. John Ioannidis – world’s foremost expert on credibility of medical research says:

•90% of published medical information that we rely on is false
•80% of non-randomized (most common) studies turn out to be wrong
•25% of gold-standard randomized trials are wrong
•10% of platinum-standard trials are wrong

The British Medical Journal, and I believe the editor of NEJM, have recently basically said that most published medical research is hardly worth the toilet paper it's written on.

Nice, you found someone who devalues research for the purpose of your argument. For every one of your Dr. Johns, there are 100's who are probably on the other side of that argument.

That's crazy to think research is BS. Last time I checked, research "evidence based practice medicine", is highly valued. Otherwise everyone who farted funny would get a colonoscopy, and everyone who had a zit, would have it biopsied.

 

[Anastomoses]

So...um...how does one delete conversations on SDN? I do not want to make an entire thread to ask this.

 

[WierdScience]

I think the biggest problem is that people confuse level of training with raw intelligence (both doctors and nurses do this). Some physicians think they are a more intelligent life form than others b/c they went to medical school whereas the truth is that they only have the rights of a physician b/c they worked very hard to obtain them through their medical training. The whole smart folks become doctors and the dumb folks become nurses cannot be further from the truth. Doctors make more $ and have more autonomy due to their training (as they should) but we all struggle equally with the same doorknobs, rubik's cubes, etc.

I just thought that I would share the results of an 'IQ by occupation study' I read for fun. It shouldn't be taken too seriously but it is interesting. It shows that MD's have the highest median IQ of any profession at just under 130, which is more than 5 points above the next highest. The median IQ for nurses is just over 105. I do think that on average the medical profession draws a lot people with above-average intelligence; however, I have met some brilliant nurses that could have easily become doctors. Lawyers and college professors are also at the top of the list. IQ doesn't predict success in my opinion but it is interesting and fun to think about.

Also, I don't think everyone struggles with the things you mentioned equally, otherwise there would be no reason to define intelligence.

Here's a link to a one of the IQ charts and there is another link to the study.
www.iqcomparisonsite.com/occupations.aspx

 

[DH410]

So...um...how does one delete conversations on SDN? I do not want to make an entire thread to ask this.

You don't, so far as I know, unless you're a moderator. People who donate gain the ability to delete their own threads, but not those of others. At least, this is what seems to be the case as far as I can tell.

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

Check New Mexico as NPs there have had 21 years of independent practice. When I was there I never saw that the state was crashing.

I love those studies! If it weren't for the fact that NP's can pawn of complex patients to the Physicians. To bad a real study that looked at mortality rates when comparing all patients across all spectrums of complexity would be "unethical." NP's do a great job a referring people they can't handle to a physicians, and there's nothing wrong with that. That's there job, screen patients and refer them as necessary, otherwise manage them. But, that doesn't equal "equivalency." Second, they order a lot of expensive test, and refer patients to expensive specialist, when a GP would be content managing them at a lower cost, without the battery of unnecessary test to diagnosis them. Doesn't save anyone money. They practice in New Mexico out of pure desperation by the state who can't recruit or find primary care physicians. But, I'm glad to know there are still physicians they can refer complex patients to.

 

[Mad Jack]

I'll be glad to give you more conversation, bud. Oh, was NP education supposed to be like medical school? BTW, I know one physician who says medical school was a joke compared to her BS in basic physics. And you can't hold a candle to those astrophysicists either. So what's the point?

I mean the actual education. So many of the courses are fluff, there are many things you only scratch the surface of, and the number of advanced clinical hours you need before being unleashed on the public are absurdly low. MDs and DOs need nearly 16,000 total hours of clinical training at the advanced level, enough to achieve a level of mastery. NP programs generally (with the exception of CRNA training) require less than one thousand hours of clinical training at the advanced level. That's less than a half year's worth of full time work, and many nurses expect to operate independently at a level equal to that of a physician. You don't have enough time to even get adjusted to your new level of responsibility in that number of hours, let alone master it.

NP education is fine for functioning as a mid-level provider with backup from a physician, but is not an adequate level of training for independent practice.

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

I mean the actual education. So many of the courses are fluff, there are many things you only scratch the surface of, and the number of advanced clinical hours you need before being unleashed on the public are absurdly low. MDs and DOs need nearly 16,000 total hours of clinical training at the advanced level, enough to achieve a level of mastery. NP programs generally (with the exception of CRNA training) require less than one thousand hours of clinical training at the advanced level. That's less than a half year's worth of full time work, and many nurses expect to operate independently at a level equal to that of a physician. You don't have enough time to even get adjusted to your new level of responsibility in that number of hours, let alone master it.

NP education is fine for functioning as a mid-level provider with backup from a physician, but is not an adequate level of training for independent practice.

CRNa 1600 avg, Anesthesiologist 12,000-16,000 hrs avg. Still a wide gap, but comparable relative to NP to physicians training hrs. Even then, nurse anesthesia providers do not have the same level of training.

 

[Critical Mass REACHED]

Yes, I mean...my own private conversations? How does one delete those?

Are you pulling an Anthony Wiener on someone? We all know how that turned out.