Official 2017 Rank Order List

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slappy said:
Easy.

UPMC
Montefiore
Northwell
UMD

But I'm biased -- I have friends who went to Maryland/Sheppard Pratt and hated it.
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You think Montefiore over Zucker Hillside? May I ask why? Thanks for your input!
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Does anyone have any thoughts good or bad about University of South Florida? I'm thinking about moving it up a bit in my rankings.


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amoeboid said:
Any specifics you can remember about what your friends didn't like about Maryland? It's not very high on my list due to location, but I remember being fairly impressed by the program.
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Inordinate amount of work especially when on call, along with a not-so-great support from the administration including the program directors resulting in a poor resident morale overall is what I'd heard.

cavsfan2306 said:
You think Montefiore over Zucker Hillside? May I ask why? Thanks for your input!
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Happier residents, program valuing resident education over work, a full day of didactics (iirc), better therapy training (imo; which the poster said was important), and closer to the city.
 
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This is a bit of a non-sequitor, but does "full day of didactics" end up really being a full day, or does it mean "mostly a day of didactics followed by your 2nd year therapy patient(s)" at most places?
 
TheFuture_22 said:
Does anyone have any thoughts good or bad about University of South Florida? I'm thinking about moving it up a bit in my rankings.


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Here were my take aways: Strong ECT/ TMS exposure. Strong CL experience. Diverse training sites for varied exposure, but VA heavy. Seems more biologically oriented. Residents appeared happy for the most part. During their 4 months of IM, they work 6a-6p with 1 day off which must be a weekday (so you work every weekend for 4 months in a row). During 2nd year, there is 6 weeks of non-consecutive night float 4pm-8am (16 hour shifts which a resident told me was rather exhausting). In addition to that night float, there is also in house weekend and holiday call about 2 weekend shifts per month. Call room is directly behind the nurses station, which apparently means no sleep.
 
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drsolo said:
Here were my take aways: Strong ECT/ TMS exposure. Strong CL experience. Diverse training sites for varied exposure, but VA heavy. Seems more biologically oriented. Residents appeared happy for the most part. During their 4 months of IM, they work 6a-6p with 1 day off which must be a weekday (so you work every weekend for 4 months in a row). During 2nd year, there is 6 weeks of non-consecutive night float 4pm-8am (16 hour shifts which a resident told me was rather exhausting). In addition to that night float, there is also in house weekend and holiday call about 2 weekend shifts per month. Call room is directly behind the nurses station, which apparently means no sleep.
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I liked the biological approach. VA heaviness. And ECT/TMS.

Not a fan of IM months, did not know that about the call room, and patient diversity is not great.

Loved the area.

Had it ranked higher than where I ended up but actually think where I am is better.
 
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drsolo said:
Here were my take aways: Strong ECT/ TMS exposure. Strong CL experience. Diverse training sites for varied exposure, but VA heavy. Seems more biologically oriented. Residents appeared happy for the most part. During their 4 months of IM, they work 6a-6p with 1 day off which must be a weekday (so you work every weekend for 4 months in a row). During 2nd year, there is 6 weeks of non-consecutive night float 4pm-8am (16 hour shifts which a resident told me was rather exhausting). In addition to that night float, there is also in house weekend and holiday call about 2 weekend shifts per month. Call room is directly behind the nurses station, which apparently means no sleep.
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Yikes.
 
TheFuture_22 said:
Does anyone have any thoughts good or bad about University of South Florida? I'm thinking about moving it up a bit in my rankings.
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I remember it being a little too VA heavy for me and requiring some driving to far away sites. While the PD struck me as cold and disinterested, the faculty at the VA seemed like really nice folks. One perk I remember is the 12-hr (?) moonlighting shifts where you typically see 3 patients.
 
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drsolo said:
Here were my take aways: Strong ECT/ TMS exposure. Strong CL experience. Diverse training sites for varied exposure, but VA heavy. Seems more biologically oriented. Residents appeared happy for the most part. During their 4 months of IM, they work 6a-6p with 1 day off which must be a weekday (so you work every weekend for 4 months in a row). During 2nd year, there is 6 weeks of non-consecutive night float 4pm-8am (16 hour shifts which a resident told me was rather exhausting). In addition to that night float, there is also in house weekend and holiday call about 2 weekend shifts per month. Call room is directly behind the nurses station, which apparently means no sleep.
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Call room location is shockingly relevant (although I certainly wouldn't pick a residency based on it). My program had a room about 50 feet outside the unit, which was ideal. Once in a great while a nurse would come instead of calling, but it was rare and usually worth your time at that point.
 
What'sTheWifiPassword said:
Location aside. Thoughts on Iowa vs. Louisville vs. USF?
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Iowa stands out as the best program on the list reputation wise. It is known for being very biologic based, so if you are wanting to do a lot of therapy it may not be a great fit. I only interviewed at USF though out of those programs.


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Any thoughts on Wash U? Trying to figure out where to rank it compared to the Texas programs. I know it is a great place for academics, but for someone who wants to do outpatient child psych, would going to UTMB or Baylor have the same result?
 
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What'sTheWifiPassword said:
Location aside. Thoughts on Iowa vs. Louisville vs. USF?
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Not leaving location aside, Louisville wins(unless you hate cold seasons).

I didn't interview at Iowa or USF but have been pleased with my training in Louisville. Of course there are things I'd change, but the program is adaptable. I landed a terrific fellowship, and so did my peers, and moonlit a ton a long away to have a great lifestyle.
 
Any input on University of New Mexico vs. University of Utah?
 
splik said:
I would disagree they are opposed anymore so than any other kind of clinical work. In fact it is quite common for forensic psychiatrists to be psychotherapists, particularly in places like NYC, Boston, SF etc. Some people even focus on things like sexual boundary violations in psychotherapy, for which the expert witness should be a psychotherapist. Others provide psychoanalytic consulting services to corporations or other organizational based services rooted in psychoanalytic approaches. There is also a subspecialty of forensic psychotherapy (it is recognized as a branch of psychiatry in the UK - there is a training program at the Tavistock) which a small cadre of psychiatrists are interested in and involves the psychoanalytic treatment of violent (including sexually violent) offenders. These are typically non-psychopathic personality disordered individuals. I'm not really sure it works, but it's nice work if you can get it. Also psychotherapy and forensic evaluations are quite detailed explorations of the individual's life. You still have to (or ought to) respond empathically to forensic evaluees, and in my experience good psychotherapy skills are essential to getting people to open up, and I often find I can't help myself in providing some sort of intervention even though I am not in a treatment role (the temptation to reassure, praise, confront, or interpret sometimes proves too much!)

Also I hate repeating myself, but there is this myth on this forum that a forensic fellowship is necessary to offer forensic services. This is completely untrue. The overwhelming majority of forensic services are provided by psychiatrists who are neither fellowship-trained or boarded in psychiatry. Some of the lower quality fellowships are probably a waste of time. "Are you boarded in forensic psychiatry?" said no attorney ever (unless you put it on your CV...) You are being retained for your expertise in clinical psychiatry in the same way any other subject matter expert or physician expert witness is. I'm not saying there aren't advantages of doing a forensic fellowship if it doesnt kill you, but it is not necessary.
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Splik, i'm guessing i could get through a forensics fellowship without it killing me...unless you know something about it that i don't? my question is--if i do want to provide forensic services, what is the benefit of going through a fellowship? what do we get out of it assuming we're not paired up with a guru in the field who can help set us up somewhere.
 
freudianslipp said:
Splik, i'm guessing i could get through a forensics fellowship without it killing me...unless you know something about it that i don't? my question is--if i do want to provide forensic services, what is the benefit of going through a fellowship? what do we get out of it assuming we're not paired up with a guru in the field who can help set us up somewhere.
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nothing. I really don't see what the point of doing a fellowship is if if isn't with one of the big names if the field. You would I suppose be more qualified for a senior position in a state hospital or corrections, but its not like one needs to be forensics trained for those positions, you would just potentially be able to start higher up the ladder (certainly for state hospital). But most people going into forensics don't want to work in a state hospital or in a prison, jobs one could get right out of residency.
 
And to piggyback on what splik says, a forensic fellowship definitely isnt needed for correctional psychiatry. Some places, Colorado comes to mind, emphasizes it more, but at many places it isn't really much part of the fellowship. Hell, I bet my moonlighting in a correctional setting gives me more exposure than Id get during a fellowship at most forensic programs.
 
splik said:
nothing. I really don't see what the point of doing a fellowship is if if isn't with one of the big names if the field. You would I suppose be more qualified for a senior position in a state hospital or corrections, but its not like one needs to be forensics trained for those positions, you would just potentially be able to start higher up the ladder (certainly for state hospital). But most people going into forensics don't want to work in a state hospital or in a prison, jobs one could get right out of residency.
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Idk what qualifies as a crappy program, but from what I witnessed in medical school doing a forensic psych elective, a fellowship could be helpful for a number of reasons. You get training in testifying in a variety of scenarios from a more experienced clinician, which can help you gain confidence and be more effective. If you're in a market where expert witness-ing is competitive, a regionally or locally well-reputed fellowship can make you more appealing. It also introduces you to the judges and lawyers working in that area. It gives you and in with the lawyers and helps you know how to deal with each judge's unique... quirks. If you want to work in academics or teach at a med school even part time in forensics, I think the fellowship would make or break that (though I can't say I know this for sure).

But yeah... fellowships that only involve "prison psychiatry" (which from what I can tell is normal psych in the prison setting) aren't helping you build connections or prepare to go into forensic psych academia. They likely are not very useful. I'd think you'd need to look out for a bad "fellowship" being a thinly veiled excuse to use you as cheap labor.

What are the good forensic psychiatry programs?
Case Western, obivously
UC Davis
Yale??? Emory? I have no idea beyond Case and UC Davis. Tulane's forensic psych fellowship seems better than many I've heard about. When you're applying for them how are even supposed to tell which ones are good and which are garbage? Based on residency interviews, the interview days are likely be misleading and possibly even full of outright lies.
 
splik said:
none of the things you mention would require a fellowship.
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Well, I only described most of what I mentioned as things I was speculating it would be helpful for. I suppose there must be forensics psychiatrists with no formal training who are running academic programs/classes about forensics. I just haven't seen them. Sorry for the incorrect assumption.
 
prok said:
Any thoughts on Wash U? Trying to figure out where to rank it compared to the Texas programs. I know it is a great place for academics, but for someone who wants to do outpatient child psych, would going to UTMB or Baylor have the same result?
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Sorry to bump this, but it's getting down to the wire and I've basically changing my list daily at this point. I'm probably overthinking it. Anyone have any advice?
 
The fact that nameless/faceless posters on a website would have any influence to where someone would end up for residency is a bit funny(or frightening?)
 
SourceOfDenial said:
The fact that nameless/faceless posters on a website would have any influence to where someone would end up for residency is a bit funny(or frightening?)
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Comments like these are interesting. I've met people from this forum, one who I messaged before a mutual interview day, and the other after realizing who they are after knowing them IRL for a while. I'd trust their opinions.

It's one of those things where either you imagine you're the only normal person who posts on SDN, or maybe everyone else on SDN is just like you. (Obvious trolls excepted.)
 
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Anyone else obsessing over the rank list like I am? Probably certified it a total of 5 times... each more different than the last. What does "going with your gut" even mean?

My biggest dilemma is putting another city into my top 3 and later regretting it. But the program is so great, I feel like I would do myself a disservice by not ranking it highly...
 
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prok said:
Any thoughts on Wash U? Trying to figure out where to rank it compared to the Texas programs. I know it is a great place for academics, but for someone who wants to do outpatient child psych, would going to UTMB or Baylor have the same result?
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Child psych fellowship isn't very competitive. If you want to stay in Texas, going to WashU for residency doesn't really give you any advantages that I can think of. I would personally try to get in a good Texas program for the networking/connections and knowledge of the local job market, which would come in handy when you're looking for a job or setting up a practice. Good luck in the match!!!
 
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Merovinge said:
Call room location is shockingly relevant (although I certainly wouldn't pick a residency based on it). My program had a room about 50 feet outside the unit, which was ideal. Once in a great while a nurse would come instead of calling, but it was rare and usually worth your time at that point.
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Wait... people have call where they actually get to sit down in room? Hmm... I thought 'call' meant a huge $hit storm where I run all over the house for consults, respond to nagging pages from nursing on the psych floors, try to rush through direct admissions because my pager just blew up with 2 new consults for AMS that must be seen before I leave, and then hopefully finish my notes before 2am. Maybe that's why I haven't seen this mythical call room yet. Glad I get to sleep on night float. Oh wait... I don't. ;) (phew... done venting).
 
Dharma said:
Wait... people have call where they actually get to sit down in room? Hmm... I thought 'call' meant a huge $hit storm where I run all over the house for consults, respond to nagging pages from nursing on the psych floors, try to rush through direct admissions because my pager just blew up with 2 new consults for AMS that must be seen before I leave, and then hopefully finish my notes before 2am. Maybe that's why I haven't seen this mythical call room yet. Glad I get to sleep on night float. Oh wait... I don't. ;) (phew... done venting).
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That does sound pretty awful. Call and nightfloat covering our inpatient side involves rather a lot of sitting (paged because patient wants tylenol, enter tylenol order, done) and some sleeping, but all our overnight admissions are done by whoever is on in our dedicated psych ED, where one definitely does not sleep a wink. Consults thankfully are something that happen in a different building and not the responsibility of night float (and honestly I think neuro gets consulted more initially for AMS then us).
 
Beth Israel vs northwestern as 1?


Then,
Mt sinai... etc etc

Really struggling with the first rank though. Can't tell how much the longwood split means for bi.
 
LAST CALL!
Bets on the table, everyone.

(Yes, I did just recheck to make sure my list was certified...even though I certified it 2 weeks ago, and checked again in the presence of my coordinator last week... :unsure: )

Good luck. May the Odds be in your Favor!
 
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OldPsychDoc said:
LAST CALL!
Bets on the table, everyone.

(Yes, I did just recheck to make sure my list was certified...even though I certified it 2 weeks ago, and checked again in the presence of my coordinator last week... :unsure: )

Good luck. May the Odds be in your Favor!
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Just curious, when did your program start make the rank list? How early?
 
it's gonna be a looooong wait until March 13th. how are we passing the time fam? i'll be slaving away in an icu for a month and catching up on HBO shows with a side of trashy Bravo
 
Seroquel said:
it's gonna be a looooong wait until March 13th. how are we passing the time fam? i'll be slaving away in an icu for a month and catching up on HBO shows with a side of trashy Bravo
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And an even longer wait until March 17th for match day. I'm finishing up an internal medicine sub-intern month and then having a residency boot camp until match day! Let the binge watching begin.


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Seroquel said:
it's gonna be a looooong wait until March 13th. how are we passing the time fam? i'll be slaving away in an icu for a month and catching up on HBO shows with a side of trashy Bravo
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Near term, going all-out on what is probably my last Mardi Gras for a while.

For the rest of the month I am building a self-balancing electric skateboard, kind of like a Segway or Hoverboard but sideways (and no handlebars). Carpentry, 24V motors, microcontroller programming, inverted pendulum PID algorithms, IMU complementary filtering, etc. I just got it up and running and rode it around the back yard today.

Needless to say, I'm ranking Dartmouth mighty high due to the nearby Center For Technology and Behavioral Health. Here's hoping the feeling is mutual!
 
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Seroquel said:
it's gonna be a looooong wait until March 13th. how are we passing the time fam? i'll be slaving away in an icu for a month and catching up on HBO shows with a side of trashy Bravo
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Don't forget to travel as much as possible this summer. It's... dum dum dum... finally your last summer ever. Here on out if you want to take 2 months off of work its going to run you near 50k!
 
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Seroquel said:
it's gonna be a looooong wait until March 13th. how are we passing the time fam? i'll be slaving away in an icu for a month and catching up on HBO shows with a side of trashy Bravo
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My friend. I am currently in the ICU, 2.5 wks remain. The ICU intensivist insisted that I work extra hard because I'll "never see it again". Forever in the books I'll be able to say I successfully placed a central venous line and art-line (under supervision) in the same patient, the very same day I officially ranked Psych programs. That said, I regret waiting until now to do the ICU. Eight years of college and I'm itching to be free like never before.
 
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I was looking in the forum for this but I was wondering if any one got any thank you "love letters" as they are referred to on reddit.
 
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DisorderedDoc417 said:
My friend. I am currently in the ICU, 2.5 wks remain. The ICU intensivist insisted that I work extra hard because I'll "never see it again". Forever in the books I'll be able to say I successfully placed a central venous line and art-line (under supervision) in the same patient, the very same day I officially ranked Psych programs. That said, I regret waiting until now to do the ICU. Eight years of college and I'm itching to be free like never before.
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I think I'll cry if anyone asks me to do a procedure. Or throw a temper-tantrum. Or both
 
barakajava said:
I was looking in the forum for this but I was wondering if any one got any thank you "love letters" as they are referred to on reddit.
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I didn't get any, but I'm not a superstar applicant.
 
JerryMouse said:
I didn't get any, but I'm not a superstar applicant.
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Same. Not that I would trust a love letter anyway. All I got was a couple of last minute "hey remember us" type letters.
 
sazerac said:
Same. Not that I would trust a love letter anyway. All I got was a couple of last minute "hey remember us" type letters.
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Same here, other than one from ECU a while back that I later found out was a form letter sent to many people (so not a love letter). I think programs are being relatively silent this year trying to not violate match rules at all costs. I got a couple of last minute "hey remember us" type letters that basically said this is our program number to input into NRMP and good luck in the match.


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