OMFS vs Ortho

[DrTooth19]

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Hello everyone. Hate to bring this thread back to life, but I'm currently entering my D2 year, and having a similar dilemma. I am conflicted between the two, I love several aspects of both; despite them being really different from one another. I like the low-strain ortho has on your body, the overall cleanliness of procedures, the generally happy population. For OMFS, I like the fact that it pushes your limits (inner gunner mentality coming out), you're making an instant difference in people's lives, and lastly there is a more sound future for OMFS in my opinion.

However, what pushed me to apply to dental school was seeing my orthodontist's office and lifestyle, and how stress free I was visiting him. Now that I'm in dental school, I'm aware that ortho is changing, and I don't know how severe the impact will be by the time I finish residency. My loans will be high, and I feel like I'll only have so much potential of earning income the first 5-10 years as an orthodontist, due to the difficulty of building a patient base, 3rd party companies, GPs starting to do more bread and butter cases. If anyone feels free to chime in I'd appreciate it.

Hi HiloH -

I wanted to comment since I was in the same position as you. I ended up pursuing orthodontics and am so happy I did. I recommend shadowing both specialties a bit more in depth, and shadow in residency too. Talk to residents - ask them why they are there and what they love and hate. Sit in both specialty's case discussions and see which one you relate to more. Imagine yourself in the OR - does that energize you or give you stress? You'll feel your heart leaning towards one specialty after doing this.

Both orthodontics and OMFS can have that lifestyle that you want because you can do private practice and make your own hours. OMFS definitely makes a lot more, but you can a good salary as an orthodontist as well. I have been talking to orthodontic graduates and residents since I started my program and everyone said to me that they make min. of $1000 a day. Working 5 days a week - that is $250,000 as an associate. Dentists make a min of $550 a day starting salary so you have potential to double your salary as ortho. You have to travel to offices and work multiple part time jobs though, which can be hard to find because you have to balance out the days. I think that is why most people feel worried about the salary but it is very much attainable. Maybe others can chime in on this salary aspect of ortho as well.

Hope that helps, happy to answer any other questions. Good luck!

 

[Trout_Bum]

Hi HiloH -

I wanted to comment since I was in the same position as you. I ended up pursuing orthodontics and am so happy I did. I recommend shadowing both specialties a bit more in depth, and shadow in residency too. Talk to residents - ask them why they are there and what they love and hate. Sit in both specialty's case discussions and see which one you relate to more. Imagine yourself in the OR - does that energize you or give you stress? You'll feel your heart leaning towards one specialty after doing this.

Both orthodontics and OMFS can have that lifestyle that you want because you can do private practice and make your own hours. OMFS definitely makes a lot more, but you can a good salary as an orthodontist as well. I have been talking to orthodontic graduates and residents since I started my program and everyone said to me that they make min. of $1000 a day. Working 5 days a week - that is $250,000 as an associate. Dentists make a min of $550 a day starting salary so you have potential to double your salary as ortho. You have to travel to offices and work multiple part time jobs though, which can be hard to find because you have to balance out the days. I think that is why most people feel worried about the salary but it is very much attainable. Maybe others can chime in on this salary aspect of ortho as well.

Hope that helps, happy to answer any other questions. Good luck!

What is the reason for having to work multiple part time jobs? Saturation? Does this only apply to more populated areas? Thank you for any insight.

 

[mmc12]

See if you can attend some orthodontic treatment planning conferences at your dental school. See if they are interesting to you. Treatment planning is HUGE in ortho.

Also something to note: Post-op emergencies and complications are much more common in OMFS. The OS at the chain I used to work with had to send one of his patients to the ED for a large abscess that required extraoral I&D or IV antibiotics (or both, I can't remember).

 

[Wahoowah]

What is the reason for having to work multiple part time jobs? Saturation? Does this only apply to more populated areas? Thank you for any insight.

No demand. If you're working for an established orthodontist, he/she can usually handle the number of patients unless growth has outpaced their capacity. Compared to GPs, as orthos get busier they can delegate more to assistants and keep up with increased patients. If you're working for a GP or multi-specialty group, they want to keep your schedule full which usually means having you in just a handful of days/month.

 

[mmc12]

Do you guys think it is not competitive to get into ortho now, with all the new programs and positions that have opened and all the doom-and-gloom talk about future of ortho?

 

[omfsing]

no no, ortho will always be very competitive

 

[FutureDent020]

Do you guys think it is not competitive to get into ortho now, with all the new programs and positions that have opened and all the doom-and-gloom talk about future of ortho?

Definitely still very competitive. Especially at state school programs with 3-4 seats. Now I have seen a decrease in competition at the big programs in bigger cities that take up to 10 residents.

 

[321931]

I don’t know any dentists working 250 days a year. This number gets thrown around a lot in here but it’s not realistic.
In the real world most work 180-220. Especially traveling specialists where the offices stack the cases for a couple long days a month.

Starting salaries are also pretty meaningless because they are short lived. My ortho has 2 associates, they get $1200/day. I know OMS making 7 figures in corporate first year out of residency. If it’s money you after the choice is clear.

Don’t do it for the money though. There are solo GPS out there making just as much and it’s not as rare as you think.

+1 After a certain income threshold- it becomes more about having a balance of time off/working. I know I could make more being open 5 days a week, but having 3 day weekends is priceless.

I know I took a hit this year taking off 5 1/2 weeks. With holidays included... it's 6 weeks off. Last year I worked more and had 3 weeks off.

There is definitely a difference in the collections up to date. But it's ok. You have to find a balance in work/life. In my opinion, there is definitely diminishing returns after you hit X amount of income.

 

[Anondds87]

I don’t know any dentists working 250 days a year. This number gets thrown around a lot in here but it’s not realistic.
In the real world most work 180-220. Especially traveling specialists where the offices stack the cases for a couple long days a month.

Starting salaries are also pretty meaningless because they are short lived. My ortho has 2 associates, they get $1200/day. I know OMS making 7 figures in corporate first year out of residency. If it’s money you after the choice is clear.

Don’t do it for the money though. There are solo GPS out there making just as much and it’s not as rare as you think.

Are these new grad orthodontists or experienced? I'm struggling to find accurate info on what orthodontists earn after a few years as associates

 

[321931]

Where do you think that level is for most?

Good question, and honestly that depends for everyone.

For example, I have two paid off cars, a steady mortgage, and I'm comfy.

For the guy who is leasing/replacing his Porsche 911 every two years, has a 1 million lakehouse...probably needs more money to keep up and be comfortable.

And for some- they find any additional income to be worth it. They look at having a 3 day weekend as a "waste of time" when they could be working and making money. So there is no cutoff- and there's no right or wrong answer. It just honestly depends on what your values are, what are your debts and liability/cash flow, and your outlook on life/money/personal happiness.

To me, a 3 day weekend every week is priceless. Worth more then a lakehouse, porsche or whatever.

 

[Xtract]

Thank you guys for all of that info - that is really what I was hoping to get from my post. Realistically I know that I am leaning towards orthodontics. Ive been doing research in the ortho clinic and while I'm there I overhear the treatment planning and how it can go in several directions, which I find so interesting. I always find myself more into the procedures/talking to patients than my research project which is why I can't really get much done in there haha.

The biggest pros I see in OMFS for me is that I like to cut and I really enjoyed head and neck anatomy, but honestly it would be the salary and ability to say I'm a surgeon which is why OMFS was an option in my mind. I avoided medical school for the sole reason of not having to go through grueling residency and having my life change because of it. I hope that an orthodontist still has the ability to still make over 400k+ after 10+ years because I feel that is what orthodontists deserve but as long as I'm comfortable I don't mind! (250k a year doesn't seem like a lot when trying to pay off 500k+ debt and support a family)

That all being said; ortho specialty is so competitive that it may not even be in my hands to become an orthodontist. I'm in the top 10% of my class but even that may not be enough. We'll see how these last 3 years of dental school go.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I hope that an orthodontist still has the ability to still make over 400k+ after 10+ years because I feel that is what orthodontists deserve but as long as I'm comfortable I don't mind! (250k a year doesn't seem like a lot when trying to pay off 500k+ debt and support a family)

Out of curiosity here, what does an elementary school teacher “deserve?” I’d argue they deserve more than an orthodontist. Proper occlusion is great and all, but a solid teacher is going to have a much greater impact on one’s life in the long run. Is that the metric you were using?

Also out of curiosity, how much will you owe after dental school? An ortho residency can easily tack on $200,000 to $300,000 with tuition, living expenses, and accrued interest. How do you think ortho will do after the economy tanks again in the near future? How long will it take to recover? Will it recover? Has it even recovered from the last recession? You’re going to have to make those loan payments regardless. Ever wonder what $700,000+ in student loans feels like? Paying that $5,000/month for the next 20-25 years probably feels a bit like this...

Big Hoss

 

[Xtract]

Out of curiosity here, what does an elementary school teacher “deserve?” I’d argue they deserve more than an orthodontist. Proper occlusion is great and all, but a solid teacher is going to have a much greater impact on one’s life in the long run. Is that the metric you were using?

Also out of curiosity, how much will you owe after dental school? An ortho residency can easily tack on $200,000 to $300,000 with tuition, living expenses, and accrued interest. How do you think ortho will do after the economy tanks again in the near future? How long will it take to recover? Will it recover? Has it even recovered from the last recession? You’re going to have to make those loan payments regardless. Ever wonder what $700,000+ in student loans feels like? Paying that $5,000/month for the next 20-25 years probably feels a bit like this...

View attachment 276597

Big Hoss

Teachers deserve a lot more in my opinion, but they don't go through as rigorous a process as us. Theres a lot of ifs ands buts in every profession. I'll owe over 500k assuming I get into a residency. I'll just hopefully find a dual income spouse and call it a day

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Teachers deserve a lot more in my opinion, but they don't go through as rigorous a process as us.

I’d argue that becoming an Olympic water polo player is just a rigorous as becoming an orthodontist. Do they deserve $400,000/year? Is income based on the rigors of one’s job or supply and demand? The orthodontics market is in high flux with many disruptive forces, so buckle up.

Big Hoss

 

[Xtract]

I’d argue that becoming an Olympic water polo player is just a rigorous as becoming an orthodontist. Do they deserve $400,000/year? Is income based on the rigors of one’s job or supply and demand? The orthodontics market is in high flux with many disruptive forces, so buckle up.

View attachment 276602

Big Hoss

if you're an olympian it means youre one of the best in the world at what you do so I don't see why not lol. Income can be based on how good you are at what you do or how much of an impact you have on people's lives in my opinion. I think building a person's confidence, providing a way to chew and speak optimally should be deserving of some $$. I'm sure it can go both directions man, thats what flux is about. We'll see how things go

 

[IHO]

if you're an olympian it means youre one of the best in the world at what you do so I don't see why not lol. Income can be based on how good you are at what you do or how much of an impact you have on people's lives in my opinion. I think building a person's confidence, providing a way to chew and speak optimally should be deserving of some $$. I'm sure it can go both directions man, thats what flux is about. We'll see how things go

No. Income is based on how much people are willing to pay for your goods or services.

Igy

 

[Xtract]

No. Income is based on how much people are willing to pay for your goods or services.

Igy

Based on what you said, it's safe to assume that people are more inclined to pay more to someone who is best at performing the procedure, like a specialist. Thats basically what I was saying lol. You're more likely to earn more income depending on how good you are at what you do.

 

[ToothJockey]

Capitalism. Teachers won't get paid like orthodontists unless they can generate revenue like an orthodontist. Same reason why an orthodontist won't get paid like a professional athlete or A list actor.

 

[averageasian]

Capitalism. Teachers won't get paid like orthodontists unless they can generate revenue like an orthodontist. Same reason why an orthodontist won't get paid like a professional athlete or A list actor.

have you taken the DAT yet? I would get on that ASAP

 

[PhansterZ]

Appreciate all the pre-dents defending OMFS. Your efforts are not in vain.

 

[DrTooth19]

The biggest pros I see in OMFS for me is that I like to cut and I really enjoyed head and neck anatomy, but honestly it would be the salary and ability to say I'm a surgeon which is why OMFS was an option in my mind. I avoided medical school for the sole reason of not having to go through grueling residency and having my life change because of it. I hope that an orthodontist still has the ability to still make over 400k+ after 10+ years because I feel that is what orthodontists deserve but as long as I'm comfortable I don't mind! (250k a year doesn't seem like a lot when trying to pay off 500k+ debt and support a family)

I don't think 400k is possible being an associate. There is potential to make over 400k being an owner but there is also potential to make that much being a GP owner. I don't think ortho owners make that much more than GP owners personally... because it's all in how you want to run the practice. I think ortho associates make a lot more than GP associates.

Ortho does make good money but if you really want to make $$$$ then the top specialties are OMFS, pediatrics, and endodontics in today's day and age. But I like that there is less stress and happier people in ortho, and for me, that is worth the pay difference. I wouldn't choose ortho solely for the money. It's up to you for what you want to prioritize.

 

[P7898]

Hi HiloH -

I wanted to comment since I was in the same position as you. I ended up pursuing orthodontics and am so happy I did. I recommend shadowing both specialties a bit more in depth, and shadow in residency too. Talk to residents - ask them why they are there and what they love and hate. Sit in both specialty's case discussions and see which one you relate to more. Imagine yourself in the OR - does that energize you or give you stress? You'll feel your heart leaning towards one specialty after doing this.

Both orthodontics and OMFS can have that lifestyle that you want because you can do private practice and make your own hours. OMFS definitely makes a lot more, but you can a good salary as an orthodontist as well. I have been talking to orthodontic graduates and residents since I started my program and everyone said to me that they make min. of $1000 a day. Working 5 days a week - that is $250,000 as an associate. Dentists make a min of $550 a day starting salary so you have potential to double your salary as ortho. You have to travel to offices and work multiple part time jobs though, which can be hard to find because you have to balance out the days. I think that is why most people feel worried about the salary but it is very much attainable. Maybe others can chime in on this salary aspect of ortho as well.

Hope that helps, happy to answer any other questions. Good luck!

Tread lightly. Ortho is now a 3 year residency. A dentist with a solid AEGD (1 year) and 2 years of practice = 3 years makes a healthy living. Do not do it based off money - do what you love.