OMFS vs Ortho

[charlestweed]

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how do you document your visits (i.e. how the hell do you write any notes)? do you have a scribe or something or write notes at home because that many notes in the OMFS world would give me diarrhea.

Here is a sample of how I write my note at a corp office. It takes me less than 30 seconds to write all these. I love paper charts…quick and simple. The entire 2-year tx can be summarized in 1 sheet of paper.

1. Today’s date
2. Powerchain upper 6-6. Single tie (S/T) the lower arch. OHI was given.
3. Oral hygiene is poor.
4. Elastic size: 3/16 Heavy
5. Class II vector.
6. New upper 16x22ss wire.
7. Assistant’s signature
8. My Signature.
9. Next visit: change lower wire to 16x22ss wire.
10. Next appointment date: 4/30 (in 4 weeks….30-minute appointment).

 

[Daniel Schruth]

The problem with Ortho is you don’t get much exposure to it in d school so it’s hard to know if you like it. Either way you will be just fine, but if you like doing extractions I wouldn’t ignore that. The job market is much better for OS than Ortho so I would also definitely weigh that into your consideration - it is a fact.


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[CaliDDS1986]

The problem with Ortho is you don’t get much exposure to it in d school so it’s hard to know if you like it. Either way you will be just fine, but if you like doing extractions I wouldn’t ignore that. The job market is much better for OS than Ortho so I would also definitely weigh that into your consideration - it is a fact.


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The question shouldn’t be OS vs Ortho. The question should be GP vs Ortho. OS by and far make more than ortho, and the job market is so much better. The real question is is the job market better for an ortho after going to residency 2-3 years longer than a GP for possibly more debt. Does the ROI make sense?

 

[2TH MVR]

The question shouldn’t be OS vs Ortho. The question should be GP vs Ortho. OS by and far make more than ortho, and the job market is so much better. The real question is is the job market better for an ortho after going to residency 2-3 years longer than a GP for possibly more debt. Does the ROI make sense?

Everything works in cycles. 20 years ago .... Orthos made as much if not more than OS. The current cycle has the OS out front. Who knows what lies ahead.

 

[Medin2017]

.

 

[011110]

Everything works in cycles. 20 years ago .... Orthos made as much if not more than OS. The current cycle has the OS out front. Who knows what lies ahead.

It feels like ortho has been in a bad cycle for a long while now. Ever since 2008 when the recession hit, there’s been lots of doom and gloom about ortho. Not very many positive things have been said about ortho since 2008, 10 years ago.

 

[2TH MVR]

It feels like ortho has been in a bad cycle for a long while now. Ever since 2008 when the recession hit, there’s been lots of doom and gloom about ortho. Not very many positive things have been said about ortho since 2008, 10 years ago.

Yep. I agree. Do you blame the recession? Partly, but if true .... then this downturn is temporary for orthos. Do you blame aligners? Yes, but aligners cannot treat every malocclusion. I believe a large part is that there are too many orthodontists. 10-15 years ago, in the yellow pages (you know .... the out-dated, square looking yellow book that you had to manually open with your hands complete with ads and listings of dentists, etc. etc.) there were 3-4 FULL pages of Orthodontists and maybe a 1/4 page of OMFS. Talk about over-saturation in the city. 23 years ago ... I found a new area in Phoenix that was destined to grow. I decided to build a new satellite ortho office there. The nearest ortho to me was 2 miles away. I did great there. Now? At least 15 orthodontists are practicing WITHIN that 2 mile radius. Some corporate. Some private. Some working out of GP offices. The new patient pie can only be divided so many times.

As a cycle works ... there will be fewer people going into ortho and at some point there will be a shortage of ortho. Right now ...everyone wants to go into OMFS. 10 years from now .... we may be talking about the over-supply of OMFS. Supply and demand.

 

[Biffster]

Yep. I agree. Do you blame the recession? Partly, but if true .... then this downturn is temporary for orthos. Do you blame aligners? Yes, but aligners cannot treat every malocclusion. I believe a large part is that there are too many orthodontists. 10-15 years ago, in the yellow pages (you know .... the out-dated, square looking yellow book that you had to manually open with your hands complete with ads and listings of dentists, etc. etc.) there were 3-4 FULL pages of Orthodontists and maybe a 1/4 page of OMFS. Talk about over-saturation in the city. 23 years ago ... I found a new area in Phoenix that was destined to grow. I decided to build a new satellite ortho office there. The nearest ortho to me was 2 miles away. I did great there. Now? At least

The problem is that supply and demand is distorted in the case of orthodontists. This isn’t like a classic economics problem of supply and demand.

Supply is determined by the folks who want to open ortho residency programs. They don’t necessarily respond to an oversupply of orthodontists the way an oil producer might respond to an oversupply of oil. In fact, it seems to be the opposite. Did we really need Georgia School of Ortho? Is America that desperate for more orthdontists? It’s difficult to imagine there will be a time when there won’t be enough applicants for them to be able to fill their residency positions. In the meantime there is no good mechanism in place to match up supply with actual demand or need. General dentists keeping more and more ortho “in house” only adds to the supply problem.

In other words, we’re screwed.

 

[Drifter_]

New technologies make it easier to do ortho. Older and established orthodontists don't retire.

 

[Biffster]

New technologies make it easier to do ortho. Older and established orthodontists don't retire.

Even more screwed.

It’s not as easy to start up an OMFS program. Those guys are looking good for the foreseeable future.

 

[schmoob]

The problem is that supply and demand is distorted in the case of orthodontists. This isn’t like a classic economics problem of supply and demand.

Supply is determined by the folks who want to open ortho residency programs. They don’t necessarily respond to an oversupply of orthodontists the way an oil producer might respond to an oversupply of oil. In fact, it seems to be the opposite. Did we really need Georgia School of Ortho? Is America that desperate for more orthdontists? It’s difficult to imagine there will be a time when there won’t be enough applicants for them to be able to fill their residency positions. In the meantime there is no good mechanism in place to match up supply with actual demand or need. General dentists keeping more and more ortho “in house” only adds to the supply problem.

In other words, we’re screwed.

Georgia's program is insane.

 

[011110]

Yep. I agree. Do you blame the recession? Partly, but if true .... then this downturn is temporary for orthos. Do you blame aligners? Yes, but aligners cannot treat every malocclusion. I believe a large part is that there are too many orthodontists. 10-15 years ago, in the yellow pages (you know .... the out-dated, square looking yellow book that you had to manually open with your hands complete with ads and listings of dentists, etc. etc.) there were 3-4 FULL pages of Orthodontists and maybe a 1/4 page of OMFS. Talk about over-saturation in the city. 23 years ago ... I found a new area in Phoenix that was destined to grow. I decided to build a new satellite ortho office there. The nearest ortho to me was 2 miles away. I did great there. Now? At least 15 orthodontists are practicing WITHIN that 2 mile radius. Some corporate. Some private. Some working out of GP offices. The new patient pie can only be divided so many times.

As a cycle works ... there will be fewer people going into ortho and at some point there will be a shortage of ortho. Right now ...everyone wants to go into OMFS. 10 years from now .... we may be talking about the over-supply of OMFS. Supply and demand.

I guess supply and demand, but there will always be GPs applying to ortho since it is an easier job despite decreasing pay. It will take a long time for Ortho residencies to close and the trend to switch. I think what you will start to see is not supply and demand in ortho, but survival of the fittest. This may mean lowering fees to $3000 to drive patients in or the era of a super dentist where an orthodontist will do general dentistry as well to supplement a decreasing income.

 

[Medin2017]

Yep. I agree. Do you blame the recession? Partly, but if true .... then this downturn is temporary for orthos. Do you blame aligners? Yes, but aligners cannot treat every malocclusion. I believe a large part is that there are too many orthodontists. 10-15 years ago, in the yellow pages (you know .... the out-dated, square looking yellow book that you had to manually open with your hands complete with ads and listings of dentists, etc. etc.) there were 3-4 FULL pages of Orthodontists and maybe a 1/4 page of OMFS. Talk about over-saturation in the city. 23 years ago ... I found a new area in Phoenix that was destined to grow. I decided to build a new satellite ortho office there. The nearest ortho to me was 2 miles away. I did great there. Now? At least 15 orthodontists are practicing WITHIN that 2 mile radius. Some corporate. Some private. Some working out of GP offices. The new patient pie can only be divided so many times.

As a cycle works ... there will be fewer people going into ortho and at some point there will be a shortage of ortho. Right now ...everyone wants to go into OMFS. 10 years from now .... we may be talking about the over-supply of OMFS. Supply and demand.

Nah omfs are in actual hospitals and actually pay stipends. Not exactly supply and demand problems like those tuition charging Ortho programs that accept people desperate to become orthos because they heard orthos are all rich 20 years ago.

 

[321931]

I guess supply and demand, but there will always be GPs applying to ortho since it is an easier job despite decreasing pay. It will take a long time for Ortho residencies to close and the trend to switch. I think what you will start to see is not supply and demand in ortho, but survival of the fittest. This may mean lowering fees to $3000 to drive patients in or the era of a super dentist where an orthodontist will do general dentistry as well to supplement a decreasing income.

Guarantee you if orthodontist does restorative in office that they will never see any patient referalls from normal gps and go bankrupt. Guarantee it.

 

[011110]

Guarantee you if orthodontist does restorative in office that they will never see any patient referalls from normal gps and go bankrupt. Guarantee it.

GPs don’t refer anyway anymore. They won’t go bankrupt they will just have to run the business like a GP except they do Ortho as well.

 

[schmoob]

GPs don’t refer anyway anymore. They won’t go bankrupt they will just have to run the business like a GP except they do Ortho as well.

Are you serious?

 

[321931]

GPs don’t refer anyway anymore. They won’t go bankrupt they will just have to run the business like a GP except they do Ortho as well.

Lol. I don’t know how to even respond to this. What planet are you from?

 

[321931]

The amount of BS on this site astounds me...really? you are making the argument that ortho's have increased 15 fold? Here are some facts... It's stayed relatively consistent over the last 8 years. Ortho is still a GREAT field to get in. It has GREAT income potential. It has GREAT work/life balance and you won't kill your body doing it. Yes, your business model may not be the same as it once was, but adjust a bit and you will be just fine...

Wow you do know 2th mover has been an orthodontist for probably longer then you have been alive? I wouldn’t discredit him. No offense to anyone but I think the whole dental field is hurting. Some specialities more then others. I think ortho and perio are hurting more as time goes on. If you want a bigger picture on ortho go look on Dentaltown.

The fact that people are debating whether ortho is in the pits is not a good thing. I don’t see that with omfs or endo. Generally good discussions... but discussions concerning ortho and whether it’s worth it? That brings up the question why do people feel this way and therein lies 2th lovers experience.

I somewhat agree with what he said but I don’t think it with be cyclical. I think it will continually decline because of the technology allowing gps to keep things in house, dsos, and competition from established orthos.

 

[011110]

Lol. I don’t know how to even respond to this. What planet are you from?

Earth

 

[011110]

The amount of BS on this site astounds me...really? you are making the argument that ortho's have increased 15 fold? Here are some facts... It's stayed relatively consistent over the last 8 years. Ortho is still a GREAT field to get in. It has GREAT income potential. It has GREAT work/life balance and you won't kill your body doing it. Yes, your business model may not be the same as it once was, but adjust a bit and you will be just fine...

Fact: that chart only shows match positions, which have stayed constant. Non-match positions including Jacksonville, Georgia, etc have grown exponentially the last 10 years.

Listen to @2TH MVR

And to all those that say I’m crazy because orthodontists may need to do GP work in the future, it’s already happening. Any orthodontist who is crazy enough to only rely on referrals from GPs will take 20 years to grow a business. A lot of them are seeing the way to grow the practice faster is drop your fees to bring in volume, or do that bonding/cosmetic on your patients. The traditional ortho model is dead. There’s a huge scramble right now in Ortho to figure out which new business model is the best to succeed. Open with a pedo? Start a GP office and build the ortho from within? Drop your fees to $3000? Only time will tell which model is the best, but the old model of waiting for referrals is DEAD.

 

[2TH MVR]

The amount of BS on this site astounds me...really? you are making the argument that ortho's have increased 15 fold? Here are some facts... It's stayed relatively consistent over the last 8 years. Ortho is still a GREAT field to get in. It has GREAT income potential. It has GREAT work/life balance and you won't kill your body doing it. Yes, your business model may not be the same as it once was, but adjust a bit and you will be just fine...

I see reading comprehension is not your strong point. That's okay. To elaborate ... where I started a satellite practice .... there was only 2 orthos (myself and this other older ortho) there for a few years. As time went on ... in THAT particular spot .... 15 more orthos decided to practice in the SAME 2 mile area. Now, I can't cite references .... but over the last 26 year of private practice .... I can anecdotally cite that the numbers of orthos have been increasing. At least in the Phx metro area.

I fully agree with your other comments. Ortho has a GREAT work/life balance and still does. Easy on the body. I was fortunate enough to experience the great income potential early on, but as you correctly state .... the ortho business strategy has to change. What that new model is .... I do not know. Every model that I see currently seems to cheapen orthodontic treatment and make it into a commodity.

 

[Str82th]

Lol. I don’t know how to even respond to this. What planet are you from?

I agree with what he said. GP referrals are down. Eventually referrals will be such a small factor that it won’t matter if an ortho drops their specialty and becomes a “super GP.” It would be unfortunate, but that seems the way it is going.

I certainly would never cut preps or do GP work again, but imagine an ortho practice that offers free cleanings and prevention as well as gingivectomies and lateral buildups. They would be loss leaders, but would have people banging down the door. Patients aren’t loyal, they’ll take two years of free care over long time relationships.

If it weren’t for student debt, corporations and competition, this wouldn’t even be an issue. With the increase in these things, ortho referrals decrease.

 

[321931]

I agree with what he said. GP referrals are down. Eventually referrals will be such a small factor that it won’t matter if an ortho drops their specialty and becomes a “super GP.” It would be unfortunate, but that seems the way it is going.

I certainly would never cut preps or do GP work again, but imagine an ortho practice that offers free cleanings and prevention as well as gingivectomies and lateral buildups. They would be loss leaders, but would have people banging down the door. Patients aren’t loyal, they’ll take two years of free care over long time relationships.

If it weren’t for student debt, corporations and competition, this wouldn’t even be an issue. With the increase in these things, ortho referrals decrease.

I see. If what the poster meant was that Ortho practices would eventually become a mixture of pedo/ortho/gp partnership/dso. I can agree with that. There will always be a market for a private practice Ortho. I'm a solo practitioner and I would never refer to a mixture of pedo/ortho/gp partnership/dso. There will always be an ortho around that will cater towards solo practitioners. And likewise there will always be solo practitioners that will exist. To say that it's going to be partnerships all the way is a bit ludacris. Business is hard as it is, it's not that easy to just form a partnership and make a big ol keep in house practice. There will always be room for solo/the old way.

But I do agree that the new ortho practices are going to have a tough time, and that the "old" images of what ortho "used" to be like is long gone.

I would personally recommend OMFS wayyyyyy over ortho.

 

[Str82th]

There will always be room for solo/the old way. - Yes, I sure hope so.

But I do agree that the new ortho practices are going to have a tough time, and that the "old" images of what ortho "used" to be like is long gone. Long gone.

I would personally recommend OMFS wayyyyyy over ortho. like has been said before, it should come down to what lifestyle you want. OMFS income is certainly greater, job security likely higher, but the lifestyles are different. I don’t know what I would recommend, but do know I do not regret my decision

 

[Medin2017]

lol the old "Omfs always on call and work like academic surgeons" belief. It's nice people actually believe this. Makes the field have less "gunners" despite the fact that many (if not most) private practice OMFS work less than 40-45 hours a week. Shadowed 4 different OMFS in undergrad and they all had half of friday off and worked 9-5 m-thurs. Just google searched 10+ OMFS, and not a single one worked more than 45 hours a week. Most even had a half day off.

If you want the lifestyle of a dentist, all the dental specialties are fair game.

 

[Str82th]

lol the old "Omfs always on call and work like academic surgeons" belief. It's nice people actually believe this. Makes the field have less "gunners" despite the fact that many (if not most) private practice OMFS work less than 40-45 hours a week. Shadowed 4 different OMFS in undergrad and they all had half of friday off and worked 9-5 m-thurs. Just google searched 10+ OMFS, and not a single one worked more than 45 hours a week. Most even had a half day off.

If you want the lifestyle of a dentist, all the dental specialties are fair game.

Sometimes your ignorance is obnoxious.

 

[Awarara]

lol the old "Omfs always on call and work like academic surgeons" belief. It's nice people actually believe this. Makes the field have less "gunners" despite the fact that many (if not most) private practice OMFS work less than 40-45 hours a week. Shadowed 4 different OMFS in undergrad and they all had half of friday off and worked 9-5 m-thurs. Just google searched 10+ OMFS, and not a single one worked more than 45 hours a week. Most even had a half day off.

If you want the lifestyle of a dentist, all the dental specialties are fair game.

man can you limit your posting in the dentist and residents forum. all i see are your posts that dominate these discussions even though you're a student. your posts makes it seem as if you are already in practice as an oral surgeon and arguing with actual practicing orthodontists and oral surgeons. it can misguide other potential students interested in omfs or other specialties. if i were you, i would be asking questions and absorbing information, not stating your opinion on private practice oral surgeons in every thread that deals with omfs.

 

[Bereno]

Hmmm. As I sit here reading these posts it occurs to me that people can often lose sight of the forest for looking at the trees. Perspective is easily lost on these forums. One thing is certain: times are changing. For good or for bad is hard to say. The fact is some people will be having a hard time with their practice while others will be having prosperous times. Unfortunately, human nature predisposes people to vocalize hard times to a greater extent than they would for equally good times. I would speculate that for every person who is struggling vocally on here there are at least as many, if not more who are silently doing quite well. This is still true even in this environment of change. If you keep an open mind, listen before you speak, and think about what people are saying, I would imagine that the prospects for ortho are still quite rich. If you have a sound head on your shoulders and solid interpersonal skills, you will likely succeed. This is just as true today as it was 20 years ago during those rumored "golden years" for ortho. Now, take what I say with a grain of salt. I am just an OMS resident after all.

 

[Medin2017]

man can you limit your posting in the dentist and residents forum. all i see are your posts that dominate these discussions even though you're a student. your posts makes it seem as if you are already in practice as an oral surgeon and arguing with actual practicing orthodontists and oral surgeons. it can misguide other potential students interested in omfs or other specialties. if i were you, i would be asking questions and absorbing information, not stating your opinion on private practice oral surgeons in every thread that deals with omfs.

Haven't argued with a single omfs since they aren't making random statements like Ortho is cyclical and will somehow rise despite all trends saying they won't. Feel free to ignore my posts.

And 10+ omfs working 9-5 isn't an opinion by the way. An opinion would be saying the omfs lifestyle is hard.

Would also like to throw out that an Ortho who was killing it in the golden times would be more misleading if a bunch of dental students expected the same thing in today's time based on what they say, right? Or is it just me

 

[Van Der Woude]

Haven't argued with a single omfs since they aren't making random statements like Ortho is cyclical and will somehow rise despite all trends saying they won't. Feel free to ignore my posts.

And 10+ omfs working 9-5 isn't an opinion by the way. An opinion would be saying the omfs lifestyle is hard.

Would also like to throw out that an Ortho who was killing it in the golden times would be more misleading if a bunch of dental students expected the same thing in today's time based on what they say, right? Or is it just me

Its just you. Go learn how to drop the box b/c the only thing dropping right now is your credibility and every OMFS opinion about you, Mr. only in it for the money.

 

[Medin2017]

Its just you. Go learn how to drop the box b/c the only thing dropping right now is your credibility.

I never said I had credibility. People don't need to believe anything I say just like I don't believe an Ortho that thinks the future is bright. And if this truly becomes a must verify resident/dentist forum, I'll just come back in a few years once I'm in residency.

Just saw your edit about money. Sorry, but I'm not going to work hard for years to not be fairly compensated. If that makes someone upset, good for them.

 

[Wingie]

 

[kingme23]

I never said I had credibility. People don't need to believe anything I say just like I don't believe an Ortho that thinks the future is bright. And if this truly becomes a must verify resident/dentist forum, I'll just come back in a few years once I'm in residency.

Just saw your edit about money. Sorry, but I'm not going to work hard for years to not be fairly compensated. If that makes someone upset, good for them.

You’ll be “fairly compensated” no matter what specialty or discipline you enter. If you make smart choices, work hard, and can relate to people you will be successful. Do you feel that oral surgeons are the only dentists that are fairly compensated?

 

[Medin2017]

You’ll be “fairly compensated” no matter what specialty or discipline you enter. If you make smart choices, work hard, and can relate to people you will be successful. Do you feel that oral surgeons are the only dentists that are fairly compensated?

I'll be real. I switched to dentistry in my junior year of undergrad from premed because I read how many hours they worked and overall dissatisfaction. I then read around here and found dentists and specialists enjoy their jobs and do well. All the specialties and general dentistry looked phenomenal. But when I got in, I started seeing more and more things about how tough things were out there. How dentists work crazy hours in corporate or for a boss that doesn't give a damn about them. And when I finally saw how even Ortho was getting supersaturated and limited, I felt pigeonholed into the only specialty I perceived would confirm my belief that my choice in switching was right. Maybe I say the things I do to bolster my choice of switching from medicine to dentistry so late in my undergrad years. Because it would kill any motivation or desire to succeed if even omfs ended up like my perceived vision of general and Ortho in terms of saturation and other aspects.

I'll probably not post in a while and work on my inherent insecurities instead of trying to motivate myself with a "pot of gold at the end of the rainbow" belief and spouting things about 400k and 40 hr weeks. I can't find the motivation at the moment to succeed otherwise, and I was never very passionate about anything really.

Not to turn this into a confession of some sorts. Continue on with the thread topic

 

[Awarara]

I'll be real. I switched to dentistry in my junior year of undergrad from premed because I read how many hours they worked and overall dissatisfaction. I then read around here and found dentists and specialists enjoy their jobs and do well. All the specialties and general dentistry looked phenomenal. But when I got in, I started seeing more and more things about how tough things were out there. How dentists work crazy hours in corporate or for a boss that doesn't give a damn about them. And when I finally saw how even Ortho was getting supersaturated and limited, I felt pigeonholed into the only specialty I perceived would confirm my belief that my choice in switching was right. Maybe I say the things I do to bolster my choice of switching from medicine to dentistry so late in my undergrad years. Because it would kill any motivation or desire to succeed if even omfs ended up like my perceived vision of general and Ortho in terms of saturation and other aspects.

I'll probably not post in a while and work on my inherent insecurities instead of trying to motivate myself with a "pot of gold at the end of the rainbow" belief and spouting things about 400k and 40 hr weeks. I can't find the motivation at the moment to succeed otherwise, and I was never very passionate about anything really.

Not to turn this into a confession of some sorts. Continue on with the thread topic

it's great that you're so enthusiastic and you already know you want to do oms. you know that you will make good money from it. you don't have to convince us or others about it. just keep working hard during dental school and achieve your dream, it's a long grind, but it will pay off in the end. good luck man. if you have any questions about applying or residency, we will help you out, but i'm sure you found most of your questions already answered here like a lot of us did.

 

[321931]

Back on topic. Just watched a youtube video and saw an ad video for "smile direct club" for my music video. 60% less then an orthodontist and don't have to go visit a dentist. Race to bottom of the barrel. Just my 2 cents.

 

[2TH MVR]

Back on topic. Just watched a youtube video and saw an ad video for "smile direct club" for my music video. 60% less then an orthodontist and don't have to go visit a dentist. Race to bottom of the barrel. Just my 2 cents.

I always get the warm and fuzzies when I read Rainee's posts in the morning. 🙂

 

[321931]

I always get the warm and fuzzies when I read Rainee's posts in the morning. 🙂

Lol. Honestly what do you think about the model? Many millennials don't have savings, buy stuff on credit, and want it "easy and quick." They are more concerned about closing 8/9 and don't care about their terminal dentition. The cost savings are great. Literally 50-60% less than an orthodontist.

 

[2TH MVR]

Lol. Honestly what do you think about the model? Many millennials don't have savings, buy stuff on credit, and want it "easy and quick." They are more concerned about closing 8/9 and don't care about their terminal dentition. The cost savings are great. Literally 50-60% less than an orthodontist.

Well, I already have a poor opinion about Invisalign so you can imagine what I feel about SDC. They are not purchasing quality. They are purchasing convenience. Ultimately ... the brief correction will not last without addressing the real cause of the malocclusion. As you know .... a space between 8/9 cannot be closed in the presence of a deep OB with simple aligners. In a deep OB ... the aligners will FORCE space closure leading to an anterior premature contact leading to incisal wear and forcing the mandible posteriorly causing TMJ.

But hey .... it was cheap and quick. 😉

 

[Xtract]

Hello everyone. Hate to bring this thread back to life, but I'm currently entering my D2 year, and having a similar dilemma. I am conflicted between the two, I love several aspects of both; despite them being really different from one another. I like the low-strain ortho has on your body, the overall cleanliness of procedures, the generally happy population. For OMFS, I like the fact that it pushes your limits (inner gunner mentality coming out), you're making an instant difference in people's lives, and lastly there is a more sound future for OMFS in my opinion.

However, what pushed me to apply to dental school was seeing my orthodontist's office and lifestyle, and how stress free I was visiting him. Now that I'm in dental school, I'm aware that ortho is changing, and I don't know how severe the impact will be by the time I finish residency. My loans will be high, and I feel like I'll only have so much potential of earning income the first 5-10 years as an orthodontist, due to the difficulty of building a patient base, 3rd party companies, GPs starting to do more bread and butter cases. If anyone feels free to chime in I'd appreciate it.

 

[321931]

Hello everyone. Hate to bring this thread back to life, but I'm currently entering my D2 year, and having a similar dilemma. I am conflicted between the two, I love several aspects of both; despite them being really different from one another. I like the low-strain ortho has on your body, the overall cleanliness of procedures, the generally happy population. For OMFS, I like the fact that it pushes your limits (inner gunner mentality coming out), you're making an instant difference in people's lives, and lastly there is a more sound future for OMFS in my opinion.

However, what pushed me to apply to dental school was seeing my orthodontist's office and lifestyle, and how stress free I was visiting him. Now that I'm in dental school, I'm aware that ortho is changing, and I don't know how severe the impact will be by the time I finish residency. My loans will be high, and I feel like I'll only have so much potential of earning income the first 5-10 years as an orthodontist, due to the difficulty of building a patient base, 3rd party companies, GPs starting to do more bread and butter cases. If anyone feels free to chime in I'd appreciate it.

Go make friends with new grad orthos/omfs to get the big picture of how things are today. I'm talking about dentists who are 1-5 years out of their respective residencies with today's debt loads. Not old timers who made their money and can work when they feel like it/close when they feel like it, and have 5 million in their portfolios and have enough money in dividends that they can work 2 days a week living that ortho lifestyle. Nothing wrong with that- but that won't be YOU and your career in today's day and age.

 

[2TH MVR]

I'm biased in that I have zero regrets about being an orthodontist. Knowing what I know now .... I would still choose to be an ortho over an OMFS. Not to disappoint @Rainee , but I do not have 5M in the bank. 🙁 The 1st half of my career was excellent. 2nd half ...right after 2008 .... not so much, but still adequate. But I attribute that to the increasing ortho saturation of where I was practicing and the fact that my business model was not evolving for the times.

Ortho is not going anywhere. There is more to ortho than correcting some easy lower incisor crowding. Our title is Orthodontics and DENTOFACIAL Orthopedics. Can't treat skeletal disharmonies with aligners. Plenty of kids and adults need quality treatment.

So .... if your dream is to be an ortho. And you can get it done without too much debt (key point), can consider working in less saturated markets, than go for it.

 

[charlestweed]

However, what pushed me to apply to dental school was seeing my orthodontist's office and lifestyle, and how stress free I was visiting him. Now that I'm in dental school, I'm aware that ortho is changing, and I don't know how severe the impact will be by the time I finish residency. My loans will be high, and I feel like I'll only have so much potential of earning income the first 5-10 years as an orthodontist, due to the difficulty of building a patient base, 3rd party companies, GPs starting to do more bread and butter cases. If anyone feels free to chime in I'd appreciate it.

For this orthodontist to have the stress free lifestyle, I am sure he has had to work very hard to get to this point. He probably had to borrow additional loan to build his office and worked hard to pay it off. He had to go door to door (and continues to do so) to meet the GPs and to offer them gifts. He must do good work in order to continue to get more referrals from general dentists and patients. He probably had to work part time for the corp to support his struggling office at the beginning etc. There were lot of hard work behind the scene that you didn't see. Spending 2-3 extra years to earn an ortho certificate doesn't guarantee anything. There are a lot of successfull orthodontists like the one you shadowed but there are also a lot of orthodontists, who are struggling to make a living. Some said they make less than the general dentists.

Compare to general dentistry and OS, ortho is a much easier job. I am 47 and have practiced ortho for 15+ years. That's only half way. I can continue to work like this 18-20 more years if I want to....that's because the job doesn't put any strain on my hands and back. I get sore thumbs not from work but from playing games on the cell phone.

 

[Xtract]

For this orthodontist to have the stress free lifestyle, I am sure he has had to work very hard to get to this point. He probably had to borrow additional loan to build his office and worked hard to pay it off. He had to go door to door (and continues to do so) to meet the GPs and to offer them gifts. He must do good work in order to continue to get more referrals from general dentists and patients. He probably had to work part time for the corp to support his struggling office at the beginning etc. There were lot of hard work behind the scene that you didn't see. Spending 2-3 extra years to earn an ortho certificate doesn't guarantee anything. There are a lot of successfull orthodontists like the one you shadowed but there are also a lot of orthodontists, who are struggling to make a living. Some said they make less than the general dentists.

Compare to general dentistry and OS, ortho is a much easier job. I am 47 and have practiced ortho for 15+ years. That's only half way. I can continue to work like this 18-20 more years if I want to....that's because the job doesn't put any strain on my hands and back. I get sore thumbs not from work but from playing games on the cell phone.

For sure. I did talk to him and he told me the beginning of his career was the most stressful - living on bare minimum and working longer hours. However, my main concern was the direction orthodontics was heading in the next 10-15 years. As long as there is potential for there to be a correlation of hard work to income I will be happy in terms of orthodontics. I dont want there to be a low cap on what I can earn as an orthodontist (150-200k/yr) because of third party companies and more general practitioners doing invisalign. I don't care to be rich but I don't want to struggle paying off 500k+ debt while supporting a family.

 

[charlestweed]

For sure. I did talk to him and he told me the beginning of his career was the most stressful - living on bare minimum and working longer hours. However, my main concern was the direction orthodontics was heading in the next 10-15 years. As long as there is potential for there to be a correlation of hard work to income I will be happy in terms of orthodontics. I dont want there to be a low cap on what I can earn as an orthodontist (150-200k/yr) because of third party companies and more general practitioners doing invisalign. I don't care to be rich but I don't want to struggle paying off 500k+ debt while supporting a family.

1. Are you willing travel long distance to multiple offices so you can have 22-28 days/month work schedule?

2. Are you ok with working for a general dentist (or dentists) as an in-house orthodontist and agree to get paid the % of the production? This means that at the beginning, you will make nothing....you will do mostly free consultations and only get paid when the patient start paying the owner dentist. Are you OK with working with inexperienced assistants at the GP offices.....and train them?

3. When you start your own office, are you ok with doing most of the work (ie mopping the floor, cleaning the chair after patient treatment, sterilizing the instruments, changing the wires etc) by yourself? With low overhead for not having to hire assistants, you can pass on the low cost tx to your patients.... to help increase tx acceptance from patients.

4. With 500k student loan debt, are you ok with living with your parents to save on rents and food?

5. Will you be able find a future spouse, who thinks like you and works hard like you? Having double income is always better.

6. Are you ok with going door to door to kiss the GPs' asses?

7. Are you ok with treating low income patients? Most orthos are still charging $5k per case. This means that most of them only target the top 20% income earners....and ignore the rest. There are just not enough top 20% income earners out there to keep your office busy.

If you say yes to most of these, I don't see any reason why you cannot pay back the $500k student loan.... and in a couple of years, you should have the same good lifestyle that the orthodontist, whom you admire, currently has.

 

[2TH MVR]

Hey. @charlestweed , we're looking at this all wrong. We gotta start telling everyone that ORTHO SUCKS. Go into OMFS. **** my back is killing me while I write this. Maybe if we can convince everyone not to go into Ortho .... fewer orthos ..... less saturation ..... better for us.

DO NOT GO INTO ORTHO. 😉 😀

 

[mmc12]

Hey. @charlestweed , we're looking at this all wrong. We gotta start telling everyone that ORTHO SUCKS. Go into OMFS. **** my back is killing me while I write this. Maybe if we can convince everyone not to go into Ortho .... fewer orthos ..... less saturation ..... better for us.

DO NOT GO INTO ORTHO. 😉 😀

Lets also say that Smile Direct Club will solve everything and orthodontists will become extinct!

 

[2TH MVR]

Lets also say that Smile Direct Club will solve everything and orthodontists will become extinct!

Well ... When you or your children or future children are "treated" with sdc .... Please let us know how it all turns out.

 

[toothsucker]

Yep. I agree. Do you blame the recession? Partly, but if true .... then this downturn is temporary for orthos. Do you blame aligners? Yes, but aligners cannot treat every malocclusion. I believe a large part is that there are too many orthodontists. 10-15 years ago, in the yellow pages (you know .... the out-dated, square looking yellow book that you had to manually open with your hands complete with ads and listings of dentists, etc. etc.) there were 3-4 FULL pages of Orthodontists and maybe a 1/4 page of OMFS. Talk about over-saturation in the city. 23 years ago ... I found a new area in Phoenix that was destined to grow. I decided to build a new satellite ortho office there. The nearest ortho to me was 2 miles away. I did great there. Now? At least 15 orthodontists are practicing WITHIN that 2 mile radius. Some corporate. Some private. Some working out of GP offices. The new patient pie can only be divided so many times.

As a cycle works ... there will be fewer people going into ortho and at some point there will be a shortage of ortho. Right now ...everyone wants to go into OMFS. 10 years from now .... we may be talking about the over-supply of OMFS. Supply and demand.

I hate to comment on something posted so long ago, but the benefit of OMFS is that it is regulated by ACGME. Meaning that the residency is paid. Meaning that it needs to be associated with a hospital so that OMFS training can include aspects of anesthesia, gen med, ENT, etc. But most importantly, meaning that you cannot have predatory for-profit organizations charging crazy tuition and adding tons of new OMFS to the working pool. The supply is way more tightly controlled than ortho.

 

[Xtract]

Hey. @charlestweed , we're looking at this all wrong. We gotta start telling everyone that ORTHO SUCKS. Go into OMFS. **** my back is killing me while I write this. Maybe if we can convince everyone not to go into Ortho .... fewer orthos ..... less saturation ..... better for us.

DO NOT GO INTO ORTHO. 😉 😀

This sarcasm oddly increased my desire to go into ortho, appreciate it 😎