OMT and Chiropractics

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1. The more experience one has treating patients with illnesses, the more adept one becomes at recognizing illness, serious or minor, atypical or otherwise.

2. Medical doctors, NP's and PA's have more experience treating patients with illnesses than chiropractors.

3. MD's, DO's, NP's and PA's are more likely to recognize illness in a patient (serious or otherwise, atypical or otherwise) than a chiropractor.

4. The chances of a patient with serious illness (atypical or otherwise) presenting to a chiropractor is much less than if they were to present to a medical doctor. Therefore, the absolute number of missed serious illnesses is lower than compared to physicians.

5. The relative risk (ie. the odds) of a missed illness (serious or otherwise, atypical or otherwise) is greater in a chiropractor than a medical doctor, NP or PA.

6. This is not a theoretical situation. It occurs and can be found in the literature and legal records.

6.5. This is not a moot point. The possibility of a missed diagnosis is always present. However, the risk is different between the two professions.

7. Please show me a disease by which the chiropractic treatment is more efficacious and safer than the corresponding medical treatment.

8. You do not know what happens when interns and residents have been up for 36 hours straight. You have never been a resident and have never been on call in the hospital for 36 hours straight. You are not aware of both the risks as well as the benefits of long call duties.

9. Do I think that chiros should shut down their practice? For some, yes. Others, no.

10. Do I think that anyone who has an illness and wants to see a chiro should also see their PCP? Yes.
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Finally, page 9. I was so tired of waiting for page 8 to load. On to business.

I bow to your overwhelming expertise. I can't argue the same thing over and over again. My head is going to explode. You're absoultely right, medical doctors rule on all fronts and Chiros have absoultely no business seeing patients. What was I thinking? What were my patients thinking? Those silly, live-on-the-edge, MD-defying loonies.

Regardless of where you stand on the issue, however, we will still continue to see patients, and will continue to provide a service where none exists in certain areas of healthcare. Fortunately you don't make the laws, and hopefully you never will. We'll never be under the MD domain, and after talking with you, I support Chiropractic's continued fight for autonomy. I see that nothing has changed in the medical community and it appears that you will not be happy until all healthcare professions are under your control, but, it ain't gonna happen.

Please show me a disease by which the chiropractic treatment is more efficacious and safer than the corresponding medical treatment.

First off, most things that we do are safer than medical tx. Need I remind you that every drug has a side effect, some potentially lethal. Be that as it may. You seem to avoid those issues rather pointently. Ok, sciatica, lumablgia, CTS, cervicalgia, whiplash, sacral segmental dysfunction, facet syndrome, thoracic outlet syndrome, and any other pain syndrome that can be helped through manipulation over medicine.

You do not know what happens when interns and residents have been up for 36 hours straight. You have never been a resident and have never been on call in the hospital for 36 hours straight. You are not aware of both the risks as well as the benefits of long call duties.

It's amazing how you have such an awareness of my life and professional experiences. I'll chalk that one up to the MD omnipotence too. And yes there is a big difference between DO's and MD's. You'll just never see it.
 
1. Wow, great idea. Side step the simple step-wise argument with more rhetoric and sarcasm. Then totally ignore point number 10. That makes for great discussion! I laid out every point that I had to make. Which one do you not agree with?

2. Did I say I wanted to control all areas of healthcare? Did I ever say I wanted to control chiros? Did I?

3. I didn't know that chiropractic was efficacious for thoracic outlet syndrome. Next time I see my patient with lymphoma (who presented with thoracic outlet syndrome), I'll tell her to stop chemo and get herself adjusted. Oh, before I do that, could I get that little thing called evidence? (please, well-controlled, blinded studies with comparisons to medical therapies).

4. You're right, I made an assumption about you and your professional life. I was totally mistaken into thinking that since you had not yet gone to medical school, that you could not have previously been a resident or even a sub-intern. Please tell me where and when you have functioned at a medical resident level and I will rescind my comment.

5. You didn't even notice I was an MD student until I brought it up. Apparently, this big difference was lost on you as well.
 
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Okay, we are getting nowhere all over again. Egos are getting inflamed, and things are being taken personally because we are thinking these are personal attacks. Time for a deep cleansing breath! :) Now, Ponyboy, I think the whole different perspectives conversation has been completely lost on you. The chances for missed disease are not greater in a chiros office because we are not likely to see these patients. Period. You are talking chances which are based on statistics, and statistically speaking, it's not likely to happen. If and when it does, I am confident any properly trained chiro (that paid attention in basic science classes, not just in philosophy) will be able to pick up on these signs and symptoms. We are trained to look at patients from a different angle, and it's amazing what you can learn when you get a group of people together with different educations looking at the same problem. As long as you respect the other persons perspective of course. Second of all, you asked what diseases are better helped with chiropractic care (which has been stated NUMEROUS times on this forum that our scope of practice is focused on musculoskeletal diagnoses), and Trey listed off specific diseases and you throw back a lymphoma case which presented as thoracic outlet syndrome and made it seem like Trey was suggesting that he adjust to make her cancer *poof* go away. That is not what was stated, and you know it. If a patient HAS thoracic outlet syndrome, he or she can definitely benefit from chiro care. That's all that was asked, that's all that was answered. It's easy to get caught up in pointing fingers...but this is just getting stupid. I just have to ask you, do you think that chiropractic, in general, is a valid form of treatment? Do you plan to refer any patients to a chiropractor who may benefit from treatment? Or are you just going to prescribe really strong NSAIDS? (after all, that's what I took for my LBP before I went to a chiro). What do you want to gain from this discussion?
 
1. You're confusing your statistics. I agreed the absolute number would be low. However, the relative risk would be higher.

2. The chances of patient presenting to a DC with an illness are increased when you go around telling people that you are PCP's (and yes, both of you have posted that on this board).

3. I'm glad you are confident in your pre-clinical training. However, you will soon find that there is a large difference between what you learn in books and what you learn in the hospital.

4. Thoracic outlet syndrome (like all syndromes) is a constellation of signs and symptoms that are caused by an underlying disease. If anything, chiropractic may provide symptomatic relief but does not treat the underlying illness. To say that chiropractic is more efficacious in treating thoracic outlet syndrome than medical therapy is shortsighted. That's like saying that tylenol is more effective than antibiotics at treating pneumonia because it brings down the fever.

5. If I had a patient who could benefit from chiropractic treatment, I would send them to a reputable chiropractor.

Off to work. More later.
 
For now,
The only thing I have ever said is that we are better adjusters than DO's, and, in my experience, I have seen some pretty awesome diagnoses made by a DC. We can diagnose. It's not like we don't get any clinical experince, we do. Just not as much as allopaths. You all make it seem like they arm us with a "how to diagnose" text and turn us loose with all of our patients, praying we don't miss something. We have more experience than that. This taken into account, if you go to a good chiro, the relative risk is not higher that they'll miss something. But, alas, I don't have the much needed research, so I really don't know. I'm speaking solely from experience.
 
Jen made excellent points. Glad to get some perspective here. And you're right, the reason that the AMSA is trying to cut the number of residency hours in a row down from 36 to 24 is becaue 36 hours is much SAFER than 24. Come on, Pony, don't insult my intelligence. The reasearch shows that after being up for 24 hours, your awareness level is similar to a BAC of .1%, which is over the legal BAC in Indiana.

And, I've never gone around telling anyone I was a PCP. I tell people I'm a Chiropractor. Who have you been talking to? You didn't have to say you wanted to control Chiros but you seem to know exactly what our competency level is without having any practical Chiro experience or training. Sounds like you're doing the same things you accused me of...and I quote:

You're right, I made an assumption about you and your professional life. I was totally mistaken into thinking that since you had not yet gone to medical school, that you could not have previously been a resident or even a sub-intern. Please tell me where and when you have functioned at a medical resident level and I will rescind my comment.

Good old medical double standard.

No, I didn't know you were an MD student until you mentioned it. Up until then I thought you were a sefl-hating DO. It makes more sense now.

Thoracic outlet syndrome (like all syndromes) is a constellation of signs and symptoms that are caused by an underlying disease.

Let me be more specific....costoclavicular syndrome, which I 've treated successfully many times after their MD's diagnosed it as CTS. Yes, adjustments alone won't do it until the patient makes some lifestyle changes that lower their risk of reinjury. That's true of most MSK conditions.
 
Do I think that anyone who has an illness and wants to see a chiro should also see their
PCP? yes

For the 1,576,298th time, we don't treat illnesses, so yes, if a person has an illness, they should see their PCP. What part of that is not registering?

Also, you always seem to avoid the point that there are many more medical mishaps and injuries in medicine than in Chiropractic.
Would you agree? Simple yes or no....no modifiers with your answer. I made it in bold and italic so you wouldn't miss it this time.

Which one of is more likely to miss a diagnosis or cause a patient serious injury due to mismanagement? Should I dig up the stats on medical mishaps and deaths or maimings from drug interactions or surgical blunders (i.e. cutting off the wrong leg or taking out the wrong side of a patients brain.) These are extreme examples that obviously don't represent the majority of doctors, yet you still choose to use an extreme example to represent Chiropractic. Does that seem like a fair way to make a point to you?? That tells me that you have no interest in reaching a middle ground. And by the way, are you going to be the judge over which Chiros are competent and which ones aren't? By what method? Do you know our scope of practice? Do you know our protocal that you can make these judement calls?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I'm trying to understand how you would make these distinctions within a profession you don't know much about.
 
1. Re: telling people or believing that chiros are PCP's:
It is GREAT to be a chiro and now matter how much you think we can't be primary care providers, we are.
Posted by you on this discussion board. It just doesn't make any sense. I mean we are agreed that sick people should see their PCP. But first you say you are a PCP, then you say you're not. I'm confused. So what is it? Are you a PCP or not? Do I know your scope of practice? Here's a better question: Do you know your scope of practice?

2. Did I say that I wanted to control chiros? Did I say that I wanted to accredit the competencies of chiros? I simply stated the opinion that I thought some chiros should not practice and that some should. Just like I think some doctors should be in practice and some shouldn't.

3. I suppose that working with a chiro for 3 years is no practical experience? And I have never said that I know the competencies of chiros. I simply said that NP's, PA's and MD/DO's have more training treating illnesses than DC's. As such, they are more adept at recognizing and treating illnesses than DC's. If for some reason you don't agree, I'll outline my argument and you can show me which point you disagree with:

4. The more experience one has treating patients with illnesses, the more adept one becomes at recognizing illness, serious or minor, atypical or otherwise.

5. Medical doctors, NP's and PA's have more experience treating patients with illnesses than chiropractors.

6. MD's, DO's, NP's and PA's are more likely to recognize illness in a patient (serious or otherwise, atypical or otherwise) than a chiropractor.

7. Which part of points 4,5, and 6 do you not agree with?

8. I'll repeat, I'm not making any judgements about chiropractor competencies other than their ability to recognize illness is not comparable to NP's, PA's and MD/DO's. So, don't you think that patients deserve the best health surveillance possible? Do you not think that if someone tries to enter into the healthcare system through a DC, that they should also be screened for preventative health measures by the most qualified person?

9. You're right, I made an assumption about the training of DC's in comparison to medical training without any actual chiro training myself. Please show me where DC's interview and examine patients with all types of pathology, admit to a hospital, write orders, prescribe, perform surgery, order and interpret all forms of diagnostic tests at a level comparable to medical trainees and I will rescind my comments. Because I have never seen nor heard of a DC or DC student do any of the above, I assumed that DC's do not have as much training treating illnesses as medical professionals. Please show me otherwise.

10. The reason why I am not answering the question whether there are more mishaps in medicine than in chiropractic is because the question is ridiculous. You are comparing two treatments that are radically different. First, the number of patients treated by physicians and DC's are much different. Secondly, the therapies used in medicine are much more varied than chiropractic. Third, the medical patient population is more acute, varied and serious than the chiropractic population. Fourth, because the patient population is much sicker in medicine, there are many more ethical and therapeutic dilemnas to be faced as well. Fifth, because the patient population is sicker in medicine, smaller errors have much more dire consequences. Sixth, because the patient population is sicker, the therapies involved are more aggressive than chiropractic. Seventh, aside from neck manipulation and other questionable practices, chiropractic is a relatively innocuous therapy (ie. much like PT) and as such, any mistakes that are made are likely to have very little effect on an otherwise healthy patient. Eighth, there is no mention about effectiveness of either treatment for any specific disease. Wow. Off the top of my head, that's seven confounding variables and one question pertaining to the relevance that make this question ridiculous. Why not ask me if there are more associated deaths from medicine as compared to giving healthy children Vitamin C? Why not compare the morbidity and mortality of gardening and medicine?

11. Where have I ever stated that I hated DO's?

12. Again, the benefits and the risks involved with cutting down on-call duties is more involved than you think. The research that suggests that sleep deprivation is equal to a BAC of 0.1% is flawed and a poor comparison to being on call. While 36 hours is a bit much, the AMSA is a student society with it's head in the clouds.

13. JenMac, I'm sure that you do get clinical experience but what experience is this? Are you in the hospital, caring for any patient that walks in, regardless of the nature of the complaint? Are you performing head-to-toe physicals, medical histories, ordering every kind of drug under the sun, interpretting any and all tests that you order? Do you see and treat dozens of cases of URTI's, COPD, strokes, diabetes and any other of the thousands of diseases out there?

14. Jen, I'm assuming that the question to number 13 will be no. That being said, who do you think is more likely to miss a diagnosis: the second year medical student who has read about the disease and maybe even seen a few cases in his limited clinical activities or the second year resident who has read more about the disease, seen maybe hundreds of cases and has treated probably the same number of cases.

15. Jen, if you want to know my stance on chiros, it's this:

16. Spinal manipulation, including chiropractic, OMM and deep tissue massage, has been shown to be an effective second-line therapy for lower back pain.

17. Manipulation has not been shown to be effective for the treatment of any other ailment.

18. There is an association between neck manipulation and vertebral artery stroke. The association has not been fully quantified but it is established that the risk of stroke is increased with neck manipulation.

19. If I had a patient with lower back pain that was unamenable to first-line therapy, I would send him to a DC whom I trust. I would warn my patient to avoid neck manipulation and that I would like to check up on him/her at regular intervals.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Ponyboy:

4. The more experience one has treating patients with illnesses, the more adept one becomes at recognizing illness, serious or minor, atypical or otherwise.

5. Medical doctors, NP's and PA's have more experience treating patients with illnesses than chiropractors.

6. MD's, DO's, NP's and PA's are more likely to recognize illness in a patient (serious or otherwise, atypical or otherwise) than a chiropractor.••••Very good points. I have never disagreed with them. I was just introducing the fact that DC's can do it too. On your level? No. Because we don't get as much training. I know this. Is our training rigorous? Yes. Is it as intense as a medical students in this aspect? No. We concentrate on adjusting and manipulation technique more than pharmatoxicology and pathology. But we do learn it.

•••quote:•••10. The reason why I am not answering the question whether there are more mishaps in medicine than in chiropractic is because the question is ridiculous. You are comparing two treatments that are radically different. First, the number of patients treated by physicians and DC's are much different.••••There are DC's out there that treat up to 300 patients A DAY. Do I advocate this? Hell no! But I think they are more apt to miss something even though most of their patients are there for wellness visits. (it just doesn't seem right!)

•••quote:•••Secondly, the therapies used in medicine are much more varied than chiropractic. Third, the medical patient population is more acute, varied and serious than the chiropractic population. Fourth, because the patient population is much sicker in medicine, there are many more ethical and therapeutic dilemnas to be faced as well. Fifth, because the patient population is sicker in medicine, smaller errors have much more dire consequences. Sixth, because the patient population is sicker, the therapies involved are more aggressive than chiropractic. Seventh, aside from neck manipulation and other questionable practices, chiropractic is a relatively innocuous therapy (ie. much like PT) and as such, any mistakes that are made are likely to have very little effect on an otherwise healthy patient. Eighth, there is no mention about effectiveness of either treatment for any specific disease.••••You are absolutely right. I think you just made all of our points. Chiropractic is a much more conservative form of treatment, and therefore we have fewer accidents and mistakes. (How'd this get tied together....it's not making sense.) Either that, or I'm talking myself into a corner...I hate when that happens! Don't get me wrong, I am all for aggressive treatment if necessary, but I think it is used too often. No, I have no research by my side to back me up, that's just my opinion.

•••quote:•••12. Again, the benefits and the risks involved with cutting down on-call duties is more involved than you think. The research that suggests that sleep deprivation is equal to a BAC of 0.1% is flawed and a poor comparison to being on call. While 36 hours is a bit much, the AMSA is a student society with it's head in the clouds.••••Again, I think this is more of a common sense kind of thing. Doesn't everyone who has been up for forever feel a bit loopy, slow to respond, not quite as aware? Also, that schedule promotes bad health habits such as caffeine addictions....now, I like my chai tea like anyone else, but I don't rely on it to keep me going. I think it's so weird that to get to be a doctor, you have to lead such an unhealthy lifestyle (if only on the lack of sleep thing alone). Even if you are caffeine free, the amount of adrenaline and cortisone levels in your body to keep you on top of things has got to be wearing too. How do you guys do it? Seriously, just asking....that would be the hardest thing for me.

•••quote:•••13. JenMac, I'm sure that you do get clinical experience but what experience is this? Are you in the hospital, caring for any patient that walks in, regardless of the nature of the complaint? Are you performing head-to-toe physicals, medical histories, ordering every kind of drug under the sun, interpretting any and all tests that you order? Do you see and treat dozens of cases of URTI's, COPD, strokes, diabetes and any other of the thousands of diseases out there?••••Our clinical experience comes from the time we spend in clinic in our last year (which is a 12 month time period). People from the community come in and we treat them. We take full historys. Of course we don't see every major complaint. Would you go to a chiro if you had just accidentally cut off one of your fingers? He he he, of course not! But we have already acknowledged that. Oh wait, I already addressed this comment above. We don't have as much experience as allopaths in diagnosing illnesses. But we do have enough experience to do it. And of course we don't order drugs! But we do know their effects (targeted and side) on the body, and often, get people to get off of them. In fact, we see all kinds of cases. Even if the patient has not come to see us for that condition, often it is a musculoskeletal complication of that condition, we can help them out. Take diabetes, for example, and this is just an example. A lot of doctors don't have time to advise the patient on their disease. They prescribe some meds, give them some pamphlets, and tell them to monitor their blood glucose level. When they come to a good DC, we can advise them on how to make lifestyle changes, help them make goals, advise them on better nutrition habits, and encourage them to regularly monitor blood glucose levels, and the proper ways, times, and methods to do this. This takes a lot of time, and that seems to be the sole reason that MD's don't get credit for that process. That is our role in treating diabetes. We aren't only a resource, we are a support system. And then we treat their musculoskeletal complaints too, and continue to comanage with their PCP. It's just an example, I'm not saying it happens like that all the time, but it does happen. We do work with all kinds of patients. And more recently, DC's are doing rotations and even residencies.

•••quote:•••14. Jen, I'm assuming that the question to number 13 will be no. That being said, who do you think is more likely to miss a diagnosis: the second year medical student who has read about the disease and maybe even seen a few cases in his limited clinical activities or the second year resident who has read more about the disease, seen maybe hundreds of cases and has treated probably the same number of cases.••••Well, you know what happens when you assume...
But, I can't argue anymore. I never said we were better. I just said we could do it. I also said we were good.

•••quote:•••15. Jen, if you want to know my stance on chiros, it's this:

16. Spinal manipulation, including chiropractic, OMM and deep tissue massage, has been shown to be an effective second-line therapy for lower back pain. ••••Thank you, and we are working on research that shows that chiropractic care is effective for more than just the low back.

•••quote:•••18. There is an association between neck manipulation and vertebral artery stroke. The association has not been fully quantified but it is established that the risk of stroke is increased with neck manipulation.••••Like your lack of sleep study, this is a poor association. This person who wrote this association was very anti-chiro and therefore biased. When looked into, the cases that were stated to have had a stroke immediatly after a cervical manipulation, it was rarely the case. One happened in a barber shop, one was performed by a wife on her husband (she wasn't trained), one was a week after the adjustment. One happened when the person was in the waiting room for an adjustment! The protocol was very shoddy and basicly just asked the people if their stroke occured within a weeks time period of a cervical adjustment. Most often, it is just an accident waiting to happen, and any rotation/extension movement will trigger the stroke. It is now estimated that the risks are 1 in a million. It has even been estimated at 1 in 5.6 million. Either way, you are more likely to get hit by lightning. I will still probably inform the patient that there is a risk (as it is a material risk, and ethically, I think I should), however, I am extremely confident that I won't run into any problems.

•••quote:•••19. If I had a patient with lower back pain that was unamenable to first-line therapy, I would send him to a DC whom I trust. I would warn my patient to avoid neck manipulation and that I would like to check up on him/her at regular intervals.[/QB]••••And that's definitely an MD talking. I don't mean that in a condescending way, but that just seems to be the attitude towards chiropractic in general. I think it's good that you are at least open to the idea, as many MD's are not.
Have a good one!
 
1. The seven confounding factors and one question of relevance were listed to show the silliness of TB's question. Why not compare the mortality of medicine versus stretching exercises in healthy adults? Or medicine versus model airplane building?

2. I never said the chiropractic allows one to make fewer mistakes. It's just that any mistakes that are made are less likely to result in serious harm because of chiropractic's weak effects in comparison to medical therapy as well as the sicker patient population in medicine.

3. Yes, chiropractic (excluding neck manipulation) is a conservative therapy. It's also an ineffective therapy for everything except LBP.

4. The safety of a therapy is useless if the therapy is ineffective. Orange juice is one of the safest methods of treatment of pulmonary embolism. However, it is also one of the most ineffective treatments of PE.

5. Working long hours is part of the training. After the first month, you get used to thinking quickly when you're tired and you get used to functioning well on little sleep. By the third month of rotations, it's not much of a consideration.

6. Do you really try to get people off drugs on your own? Which ones? Do you consult the PCP before you start messing with a patient's beta-blocker?

7. Your diabetic picture paints MD's without any time and DC's with an abundance time. This is somewhat hard for me to comprehend, especially after you mention DC's that see 300 patients per day. Anyone in an office, be it a DC or an MD, must see patients at a rate quick enough to pay for the upkeep of the office and to earn a living. To tell me that DC's spend more time with their patients is a gross generalization that is entirely unfounded. BTW, for a patient to go through the diabetic clinic at my hospital, an entire morning is booked off and the patient spends half an hour with the MD, the Nurse Advisor and the dietician individually.

8. I've read about these "residencies" and they are nothing compared to a medical residency (and I suspect, they do not compare with the latter half of medical school). However, they allow DCs to call themselves, family practioners and internists, which is very misleading and might lead a lay person to believe they were seeing a medical professional.

9. There has been more than one study associating stroke with neck manipulation. The American Heart Association is one of them and not what I would call an anti-chiro association. The "estimations" that are quoted are vague and often estimations from chiropractors. Biased? I wonder. Regardless, estimations are just that: estimations. Several studies point to a risk and while it's unquantifiable now, it is still a present risk.

10. The risk of stroke with neck manipulation should be a moot point because neck manipulation has not been proven to be effective for the treatment of any disease. Why would a patient want a treatment with an unquantified risk, if it has not been proven to be effective for anything?

11. Maybe it's an MD thing but I will only refer to people I trust. Whether they be surgeons, psychologists or DC's. The welfare of my patients comes first and I will not send them to anyone I would not go to myself.

12. Maybe DC's can function at some level of health supervision and maybe some of them are good. However, they do not compare with trained medical professionals. The question is not whether they can do it but whether it is in the patients best interest to be seen by a DC or by someone with more training and experience at recognizing and treating illnesses.
 
Jen is a little more tactful than me, but I agree with what she's said, esp. about the cervical manipulation/stroke study. Talk about a sloppy, usless study that the medical profession LOVES to quote. Should Chiros be PCP...no. I recind my earlier remark. Should we still be primary for MSK conditons that aren't medical emergencies? In my opinon, absolutely yes. Primary treatment, not secondary, but, that's a difference in perspective that we will never agree on. But, like Jen said, at least you're willing to keep a slightly ajar mind, which is more than some.

Seventh, aside from neck manipulation and other questionable practices, chiropractic is a relatively innocuous therapy (ie. much like PT) and as such, any mistakes that are made are likely to have very little effect on an otherwise healthy patient.

Isn't that a good thing? Wouldn't that be one more reason to try conservative treatment options before trying something with the potential for side effects, the feeling one gets from being on meds (i.e. feeling loopy, as Jen puts it, and not being able to function), or further injury sustained when people mask their pain and overdo activities that cause more harm in the long run??? If you truly want what's best for the patient than try something conservative, non-invasive before running to the meds.

Cervical manipulation is not questionable, by the way, it's actually very effective. Now I'm sure you'll argue this b/c you seem to find fault in EVERYTHING positive I say about Chiropractic, but thousands of Chiros give cervicalgia, whiplash, headache, CTS, and TOS relief to patients every day, regardless of the studies that prove or disprove it. That's a fact. I don't need a study to tell me that. Chiros have been doing it for 100 years and if it were that dangerous, it would have died out a long time ago instead of flourishing and growing. That must give some evidence of it's worth. It's called supply and demand. Again, I use the example of aspirin.

There is an association between neck manipulation and vertebral artery stroke. The association has not been fully quantified but it is established that the risk of stroke is increased with neck manipulation.

It is estimated to be between 1 in 1 - 3 million. That is statistically insignificant. Pure chance, and the examples that are used in studies are so pathetic as to be laughable. No direct cause and effect.
 
Here we go with the condescending, holier-than-thou, medical God complex again. Let's make sure we beat everyone else down so you feel more important. Just a little overcompensation there? Whatever. Since you can't seem to keep an opne mind for more than a millisecond, my conversation with you is over and maybe we'll be lucky enough NOT to cross paths someday.
 
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Thanks Trey.
Hey Ponyboy, thanks for taking what I said out of context again. RIGHT after I used DC's as a bad example for seeing 300 pts/day, I said there was no way a good DC pratices that way, most of the patients go there for wellness visits, and that I would never practice that way. As for the time issue, I was referring to the changing politics between medical care and insurance companies. More and more, I hear that patients have to reschedule with thier PCP (family practice, internal medicine) because they don't have time to answer their questions. I have heard that this is because the insurance cos are paying them crap in a crap contract, so they have to see more patients, and do more paperwork.....ya know, I really don't know. I have just heard it over and over and over again from patients coming to see their DC.
 
Oh yeah, we do consult with the PCP before any drug interaction...part of that whole comanagement thing....it's not a goal of the DC, it sometimes works out to be an added bonus for the patient, and only when necessary. I think I'm with Trey though...I don't know why I keep arguing with you. I'm not changing your mind, I'm not even planting a seed, and you're not changing mine. What is the point of this again?
 
Hey for all of you that are freaked out about Chiropractors as primary care providers. Check out this info from the Bastyr University web on the scope of practice of Naturopathic Doctors, N.D.

<a href="http://www.bastyr.edu/academic/naturopath/pizzorno.asp" target="_blank">http://www.bastyr.edu/academic/naturopath/pizzorno.asp</a>

What is an ND legally authorized to do?

Naturopathic physicians have complete diagnostic rights and complete prescriptive rights for all natural medicines and prescription rights for specific legend drugs.

Naturopathic physicians can also perform office surgery and vaccinations, have the authority to direct RNs, and are approved by the public health office to issue birth and death certificates.

Which states license NDs?

As of December 1999, naturopathic physicians are licensed as primary health care providers in Alaska, Arizona, Connecticut, Hawaii, Maine, Montana, New Hampshire, Oregon, Utah, Vermont and Washington. In the District of Columbia, naturopathic physicians must register in order to practice. Legal provisions allow the practice of naturopathic medicine in most other states. Naturopathic physicians are also recognized in Alberta, British Columbia, Manitoba, Ontario and Saskatchewan.
 
And they do manipulation!! LOL

<a href="http://www.bastyr.edu/catalog/translate.asp?linkpage=courses/default.asp?PID=PM" target="_blank">http://www.bastyr.edu/catalog/translate.asp?linkpage=courses/default.asp?PID=PM</a>

Naturopathic Manipulation 1-4 1 credit
This four (4) course sequence in naturopathic manipulation emphasizes structure and gait analysis, evaluation of musculoskeletal conditions, differential diagnosis, assessment and treatment. A comprehensive approach to therapeutic protocols utilizing appropriate physical medicine modalities is emphasized.
Prerequisites: PM5304

PM6300 Naturopathic Manipulation 1 2 credits
See description above. This course includes structural analysis and gait analysis. Students are introduced to various forms of soft tissue manipulation, such as muscle energy, strain/counterstrain, trigger point therapy, and craniosacral manipulation.
Prerequisites: BC5127, PM5300

PM7301 Naturopathic Manipulation 2 3 credits
See description preceding PM6300. Evaluation of soft tissue pathologies, differential diagnoses and rationale for use of soft tissue manipulation are covered. Soft tissue treatment?primarily strain/counterstrain, neuromuscular technique, muscle energy and therapeutic massage. Osseous manipulation is introduced.
Prerequisites: PM6300

PM7302 Naturopathic Manipulation 3 3 credits
See description preceding PM6300. General osseous manipulation in uncomplicated cases is covered. The course focuses primarily on spinal manipulation. Treatment protocols emphasize a well-rounded approach, including the appropriate use of osseous and soft tissue manipulation, physiotherapy and hydrotherapy.
Prerequisites: PM7301
 
"Wouldn't that be one more reason to try conservative treatment options before trying something with the potential for side effects, the feeling one gets from being on meds (i.e. feeling loopy, as Jen puts it, and not being able to function), or further injury sustained when people mask their pain and overdo activities that cause more harm in the long run??? If you truly want what's best for the patient than try something conservative, non-invasive before running to the meds."

What part of "ineffective" and "unproven" do you not understand? I will only prescribe treatment that has been proven to work. Yes, that's pretty closed minded but it's also very effective.

"Cervical manipulation is not questionable, by the way, it's actually very effective. Now I'm sure you'll argue this b/c you seem to find fault in EVERYTHING positive I say about Chiropractic, but thousands of Chiros give cervicalgia, whiplash, headache, CTS, and TOS relief to patients every day, regardless of the studies that prove or disprove it. That's a fact. I don't need a study to tell me that. Chiros have been doing it for 100 years and if it were that dangerous, it would have died out a long time ago instead of flourishing and growing. That must give some evidence of it's worth. It's called supply and demand. Again, I use the example of aspirin."

I don't know how you like to care for your patients but I treat them with something I like to call "evidence-based medicine". When my patients present with an illness, I give them the first line therapy. Why do I do that? Because research has shown first-line therapy to be better than second-line therapy and I want the best for my patients. If you don't need a study to prove that it's effective, then you go right ahead and treat them as you see fit. However, I will treat them by what's proven to be effective. (God complex? I'm not the one who thinks that they know better than research substantiated guidelines.)

Like I said before, there has been more than one study; although you seem closed-minded about the possibility of there being more than one study. 1 in 1-3 million is your (and other DC's) estimation of the risk. Others have estimated it to be as low as 1 in 100, 000. You don't know the actual risk, neither do I. However, because I have no evidence to prove that it is beneficial, I will not recommend it to my patients.

Jen, the comment about the DC seeing 300 patients/day was a facetious comment. I take it back. However, you are making a gross and innaccurate generalization about doctors and their interactions with their patients.

Listen, if you think that I'm being closed minded, so be it. However, I want what's best for my patients. If I think that they're wasting their money and time on unproven therapies, I will tell them. I will not suggest that they submit to therapies that have no proven use and have the possibility of harm. If you (or anyone else) says that method X works, I say maybe. Before I'm going to prescribe it, I want proof. Maybe I'm stubborn, maybe I'm closed-minded but you had better believe that I will keep my patients welfare at the top of my priorities. If you think that it's a God complex that makes me want my patients to see the most qualified person for health surveillance, then that's fine with me. If you think it's a holier-than-thou attitude that makes me not recommend unproven treatment, so be it. I could care less what you think, as long as my patients get the best care possible.

Is this conversation over? Aww. It was just starting to get fun. Oh well. I guess it works out cuz I'm going on vacation! TB, maybe we'll never cross paths, maybe we'll see each other in passing, maybe I'll be your resident! Wouldn't that be fun? Think of all the interesting conversations we might have!
Jen, it's been a pleasure.
 
Stillfocused, are you thinking about going this route? I've heard of ND's but didn't know anything about what they do. Thanks for the website, I'll check it out. Maybe we can into a discussion about ND's so Ponyboy can slam them too. No, I'm sorry, so he can "keep my patients welfare at the top of my priorities"....cuz "I could care less what you think, as long as my patients get the best care possible." Hippocrates reincarnate.
 
Wow, more rhetoric, sarcasm and some thinly veiled personal insults without addressing any points. Now, who would have expected that from TB?

Have a good summer. Med school starts soon.
 
You too, Ponyboy. Yea, maybe you'll be my senior resident someday. That would definately make for an interesting residency.
 
Originally posted by Treybird:
[QB]In Texas, you can get into chiropractic school with 60 hours of college and a pulse

And that's different from Lake Erie Osteopathic College how???]

I'm a Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine student. I would like to clarify that NO ONE has been or will be accepted into the D.O. program with just 60 hours of undergraduate work.

There are two accelerated 3+4 programs with Gannon University/LECOM and Penn State University/LECOM. I know of only one person out of 200 in the 2005 class who is part of this accelerated program.
Click to expand...
 
I am not thinking about ND at all. But, I am a bit suprised by their scope of practice, especially when compared with DCs.
 
Hey stillfocused, why does this surprise you? Actually I was surprised when I heard they do manipulation too, but I just wanted to know what exactly was surprising. I had no idea their scope was so broad either....
Good luck Ponyboy. One day we'll have that RCT research to prove the efficacy of adjustments beyond the low back (even in extremities!), for now we have to settle with clinical experience and case reports. (No sarcasm intended, it's just not widely accepted as proof....as you obviously know!) Have a good vacation everyone, I am outta here for a few too
 
Wow this is STILL going on?? I left town a week ago and I think this debate is going nowhere...personally, the ND crud should be discussed and exposed.
 
I always envisioned the title of DOCTOR of anything to be a high-level academic achievement. How is it that DC's call themselves doctors rather than technicians? NP's and PA's don't call themselves doctor with the same or more hours of trainng. That would be like a BS or MS student in a university setting trying to pass him or her self off as a full professor (Doctor of) to the students, when there is really no comparison between the levels of education. It seems that anyone with knowledge of all the periphery of medicine can hang a shingle and call him or her self doctor without having to bother with all the important and often obscure details. This is troubling on many fronts and we should fight it with vigor. Agreed?
 
Slingblade the Surgeon wrote:

How is it that DC's call themselves doctors rather than technicians? NP's and PA's don't call themselves doctor with the same or more hours of trainng.

Mr. Slingblade,

How many years of training do DC's, NP's, and PA's have? Why don't you look that up somewhere and report back to us.
And if you become a D.O., please do the Osteopathic profession a favor--research a topic before write about it--don't display your ignorance in a public forum.
 
To become a PA, you must have a 4 year undergrad degree. Not 60 college credits. After completing a 4 year degree, a PA goes to 3 years of PA school. All together, if you go to school full time with no breaks in between, it takes 7 years to become a PA. Some may be able to do it in 6 if they really bust their behinds.
On another note, my undergrad college had a program where you attend their college for 2 years as a Bio major, and then go to New York Chiropractic College for another 2 years. After that, you spend 1 year doing an apprentice sort of thing with another chiro. If you entered this program, you could become a chiropractor in 4-5 years! If you would like to learn more about this program, I will give you the info on my undergrad college gladly.
So I think a very good point was made. We don't call PA's by doctor, yet it takes more time and education to earn a PA degree.
 
Hi Jersey Girl,

Hmmm, I guess the U.S. Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics is wrong. According to them:

RE: Physician's Assistant--The typical physician assistant program lasts about 2 years and usually requires at least 2 years of college and some healthcare experience for admission.

<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos081.htm" target="_blank">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos081.htm</a>

RE: Chiropractors--Most State boards require at least 2 years of undergraduate education, and an increasing number require a 4-year bachelor's degree. All boards require completion of a 4-year chiropractic college course at an accredited program leading to the Doctor of Chiropractic degree.

For licensure, most State boards recognize either all or part of the four-part test administered by the National Board of Chiropractic Examiners. State examinations may supplement the National Board tests, depending on State requirements.

<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos071.htm" target="_blank">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos071.htm</a>
 
<a href="http://www.medicine.uiowa.edu/pa/PAWebNew/admissio.htm" target="_blank">http://www.medicine.uiowa.edu/pa/PAWebNew/admissio.htm</a>

<a href="http://www.medinfo.ufl.edu/pa/program/admit.htm" target="_blank">http://www.medinfo.ufl.edu/pa/program/admit.htm</a>

<a href="http://pa.mc.duke.edu/s_admiss_prereq.asp" target="_blank">http://pa.mc.duke.edu/s_admiss_prereq.asp</a>

<a href="http://www.ohsu.edu/pa/prereq.html" target="_blank">http://www.ohsu.edu/pa/prereq.html</a>

<a href="http://www2.umdnj.edu/paweb/overview.html" target="_blank">http://www2.umdnj.edu/paweb/overview.html</a>

Yes, that internet link is innaccurate. If you look at the above links I have posted, you will find the admissions requirements for 5 PA schools which I randomly found by doing a simple Yahoo search. There may be some PA schools which only require 2 years of undergrad education. However,I could not find any. If there are, it makes the amount of education a PA recieves ( in only some instances) equal to that of a chiropractor. Yet, a PA does not have Dr. in front of his or her name and a chiropractor does. And then what about all of the PA's who have had 6-7 years of education as illustrated in the links I provided? They don't have Dr. in front of their name, yet they have had far more education than Chiro's.
 
Here's a P.A. program that appears as though you only need a highschool diploma or GED to enter their 2 year P.A. program.

Admission requirments:

<a href="http://www.mdcc.edu/medical/PA/pa_req.htm" target="_blank">http://www.mdcc.edu/medical/PA/pa_req.htm</a>

Curriculum:

<a href="http://www.mdcc.edu/medical/PA/pa_curr.htm" target="_blank">http://www.mdcc.edu/medical/PA/pa_curr.htm</a>

I realize that this probably does not represent a the majority of the licensed P.A.s out there, but I think that it is significatly less education than any chiropractic program. There are no associate DC programs that I'm aware of.
 
But you are missing the take home point. The take home point is, there are many, many PA's out there who have spent 6 and 7 years getting their education in an academic setting, not clinical setting. That is 6-7 years spent in a classroom. It does not take that long to become a chiropractor. For the most part, 60 college credits are required, and then 2 maybe 3 years of chiro school. The main point here is that there are many PA's out there with more education than Chiro's, yet we do not call them doctor. So you found 2 instances where they have the same amount of education, they still aren't called dr. and chiro's are. The same thing happens here with Nurse Practicioners. They are not called Dr. iether, yet you have to have a BSN (4yr degree)and then after receiving a BSN you can go to school to become an NP which is another few years. In light of this, how do you explain Chiropractors deserving to have dr. in front of their name, when an NP or PA (like I have illustrated) does not?
 
<a href="http://www.parkercc.edu/admissions/prerequisites.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.parkercc.edu/admissions/prerequisites.shtml</a>

<a href="http://www.clevelandchiropractic.edu/Admissions/req_dc_program.htm" target="_blank">http://www.clevelandchiropractic.edu/Admissions/req_dc_program.htm</a>

<a href="http://www.nwhealth.edu/admit/require/chiro.html" target="_blank">http://www.nwhealth.edu/admit/require/chiro.html</a>

<a href="http://www.bridgeport.edu/chiro/" target="_blank">http://www.bridgeport.edu/chiro/</a>

I went and looked up four chiro colleges. None require a Bachelors degree. They require 90 semester hour credits. So in a previous post, I gave you 5 PA schools which require a Bachelors degree, and GRE score, and here I gave you 4 chiro schools which only require 90 credits and nothing else.
 
Jersey Girl wrote:

But you are missing the take home point. The take home point is, there are many, many PA's out there who have spent 6 and 7 years getting their education in an academic setting, not clinical setting. That is 6-7 years spent in a classroom. It does not take that long to become a chiropractor. For the most part, 60 college credits are required, and then 2 maybe 3 years of chiro school.

Jersey Girl, I'm afraid you're grossly mistaken.
Every chiropractic college has a four year curriculum at least. Most require at least 90 hours of college credit, but from what I understand, a majority of the students have a B.A. or B.S. before they start chiro school. That means it takes a MINIMUM of 6 years of school to become a chiropractor, but most students probably have at least 8 years.

In contrast, there are many associate P.A. degree programs available (from what I've seen on the internet) so you can actually get a P.A. degree in 4 years of school. You cannot get a D.C. degree in four years.

So in summary,
the MINIMUM amount of school to obtain a chiropractic degree is 6 years.
The MINIMUM amount of school to obtain a P.A. degree is 4 years.

and 6 &gt; 4 , correct?

So that makes this part of your statement incorrect---&gt; It does not take that long to become a chiropractor. For the most part, 60 college credits are required, and then 2 maybe 3 years of chiro school

I know there are probably MANY PAs out there with more than 4 years (and probably 6-7 years as you stated) but there ARE some with only 4 years.

I'm not bashing PAs or trying to glorify DCs; I'm just trying to get the facts straight.

By the way, there are also Allopathic medicine degree programs that can be completed in 6 years:

<a href="http://www.med.umkc.edu/redirect/prospective_default.html" target="_blank">http://www.med.umkc.edu/redirect/prospective_default.html</a>

P.S. I will going out of town for a while, so I will have to let someone else take over this argument if it continues. Take care.
 
It's not worth discussing, you are still missing the point. You obviously didn't read the links I provided.
 
So, Jersey Girl returns. Thanks for the return e-mail I never received after sending you a very nice one. It just shows me that you have no interest in looking at this objectively, which is par for the course in the forum. Just to let you know, I had 9 years of school to become a Chiro. Four years of undergrad, getting my BS in Exercise Phys, and 5 years at Palmer. Palmer Chiro College is a 10 semester program. It's amazing how you really try and minimize our education.
I don't know how many times this needs to be said before it starts to sink in. We call ourselves Doctors of Chiropractic, not Doctors of Medicine. It sounds like you PA's, and surgeons apparently, have a big chip on your shoulders. Don't whine about what you don't have. If you feel you should be called Doctors of Medical Assisting, than go fight for it. You don't need to slam everyone else to feel better. Did you expect Dmon to just say, "Yea, JG, you're right we're just not as good as you...we're sorry. We'll just call ourselves Doctors of Being Less Than PA's." We're talking about two DIFFERENT healthcare fields. You're trying to compare apples and oranges.
 
I just wanted to add some more support for dmon and Treybird--

I've got quite a few friends in chiropractic school, so I asked around about what it takes to get admitted. Although their school publishes that a minimum of 90 credits is required, in their class 98% of them have received their BSc degree prior to being accepted. Many students have also completed MSc degrees as well.

Just because someone meets the minimum requirements, it does not guarantee acceptance--far from it! So, because chiropractic school is 4 years long, add that to a 4 year BSc and you really get a minimum of of 8 years of education to become a chiropractor.

In my opinion, a chiropractor deserves the respect of being called a Doctor of Chiropractic. I've seen the coursework required in the program, and it's pretty intense. My friends really know their stuff, and I'd trust them with any kind of musculoskeletal diagnosis.

I don't believe a PA or NP has the depth of knowledge (of medicine, as with DOs/MDs, or of musculoskeletal anatomy/biomechanics, etc., as with DCs) required to earn the title of "Doctor." Don't get me wrong, though--I really appreciate and understand the valuable roles PAs and NPs play in patient care. I just don't believe they should be called doctors.

Just my 2 cents. :)
 
Solie, you're welcome in my clinic any day. Thanks for the support and, more importantly, an objective opinion.
 
My bad then...I didn't realize that chiros had to have finished a BA/BS... My info came from a friend who has been a chiro for 25+ years and had only gotten 60 hours undergrad before going to chiro school. I think the requirements have changed. The new breed of chiro is apparently more educated.

"Most State boards require at least 2 years of undergraduate education, and an increasing number require a 4-year bachelor's degree. All boards require completion of a 4-year chiropractic college course at an accredited program leading to the Doctor of Chiropractic degree."

"All required applicants to have at least 60 semester hours of undergraduate study leading toward a bachelor's degree, including courses in English, the social sciences or humanities, organic and inorganic chemistry, biology, physics, and psychology. Many applicants have a bachelor's degree, which may eventually become the minimum entry requirement."

<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos071.htm#training" target="_blank">Occupational outlook handbook Chiropractic</a>

Objective Smobjective! No one has to be objective when their scarcasm can be protected by distance and relative anonymity as in an internet forum. I certainly would not allow someone to stand in front of me in person and use some of the inflamatory and scarcastic language I've seen on these forums directed toward people.

For example: "And if you become a D.O., please do the Osteopathic profession a favor--research a topic before write about it--don't display your ignorance in a public forum."

I don't play those silly word games and calling me ignorant in person would most likely get you b|tch-slapped...However, in this forum I suppose you feel it is acceptable behavior. I don't care how you define ignorant or even how you meant it...the simple fact is that you feel safe enough to insult me directly because you are behind a keyboard somewhere in cyberland. I believe that is why these forums sometimes get so out of hand with the name-calling, etc. If people were face-to-face where they could be held personally accountable for their malicious rhetoric, conversations would be much more productive and much less childish.

As an aside...I used to do phone technical support and I can say that people get pret-ty brave talking smack on the phone too, but the big picture is that if people were even half as domineering or "tough" as their online/phone personas there would be so many face-to-face clashes that no one would ever get anything done for fighting.

Hehehe cool that turned into a long post. <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />

Seriously though, look around you. People don't talk like that to each other in real life when they're discussing something unless they're trying to start an argument. So lets not make enemies unnecessarily by using accusatory and/or inflammatory language toward one another. You wouldn't take that in person from a stranger and neither would I.
 
My bad then...I didn't realize that chiros had to have finished a BA/BS... My info came from a friend who has been a chiro for 25+ years and had only gotten 60 hours undergrad before going to chiro school. I think the requirements have changed. The new breed of chiro is apparently more educated.

FINALLY!! Someone from the medical profession who actually has the balls to admit that things have changed in Chiropractic and realizes it's not like it was even 20 years ago. That to me is the sign of an excellent doctor. Someone who has the flexibility and open-mindedness, when faced with proof, to change his or her mind and admit they were wrong.

Are you in med school or out practicing? What specialty in surgery do you want to go into, or are in?

TB
 
I am not a PA. I just finished up undergrad with a dual BS in Chemistry and Biology. By the way,Georgian Court College in Lakewood NJ has an affiliation with New York Chiropractic College. 2 years at Georgian Court, 3 years at New York Chiropractic College. Completion of 5 years total = DC. I have friends who went through this program. I have friends who became PA's and are spending 7 years to do so. Oh, and Treybird, I never got your e-mail. If I had, I would have read it. I Don't know what you are talking about.
I don't want to participate in this discussion any longer. You guys get so hung up on the minor details, that you miss the big picture.
 
Funny that JG should point out that WE'RE missing the big picture. I apologize if you never got my e-mail, JG, but I used the one that you have listed on this forum so you may want to check that again. And I thought you were so disgusted with Chiropractors that you just couldn't bring yourself to read anymore of this forum or associate with Chiros in general. Now you have friends that are Chiros?? Hmmm, some friend you are. Maybe you could show your friends some support, or just get your story straight in general.

As for combined programs, Rutgers and UMDNJ have a combined 6 year BS/MD program. And let's get this straight once and for all, it is a 3 year program that runs all year round...10 semesters, which is 5 academic years. Once again, JG, get the facts straight. That makes it a combined 7 year program, not 5.
 
wwwoowwww! This is a very nasty, angry thread. Can I add something? A professor at our school said something I try to keep in mind (I said try): That you will never do yourself or anyone else any good by insulting or criticizing a colleague-he was directly refering to other MDs/DOs but I think I applies equally to all health professions and even outside our health professions.

We are all professionals or studying to be so...could everyone take a deep breath and accept that the public benefits when we work as a health care team. I'm going to be a DO but if I go into a specialty my musculoskeletal pts are going to a DO, DC, or PT and to whoever I think does a good job regardless or the letters after their name. Every profession has its quacks and thats not the profession's fault-but it is the responsibility of that profession to recognize those people and deal with them.

I come from a chiropractic family and find it humorous when I hear people slam D.C.'s. My mother and I have very different training and we will be doing very different jobs. The manip training we recieve is very good at my school-some students come out with excellent skills and some do not (because they do not practice, etc.) at a chiro school the classes are different and of course, your specialty (generally speaking) is predecided. DO students do not have to make a living with their hands if they do not want to (although I believe thats a shame). I do not think its worthwhile to compare the two groups (DO/DC) because patients will choose what works for them and we can only try to serve them as well as we can.

Also- I wanted to add that my mom sees a lot of 'sick' pts (cancer, etc.) and her treatments provide them with a lot of relief. She has also diagnosed a lot of things that other docs missed b/c she uses her head and pays attention to her pts. also-there was a post earlier that stated that manip was a second line therapy for LBP, I believe the current guidelines say its first line. (federal guidelines)

I do not want to stir up any beehives so if something I said above irks you, I'll be happy to talk about it...but no insults please.
 
Very well put and I agree with you 100%. We all have our specialties and we all have something to add to the field of healthcare. You sound very well adjusted (pun intended).
 
Treybird,
I just want to ask you something - what made you think that LECOM only requires 60 college credits? You think everyone else on this board is so misinformed, what about you?

I'm not getting into the whole DO vs. chiropractic discussion because I know chiropractors are good at what they do and can be very helpful for patients. I just want to know where you got such clearly incorrect information.
 
OH MY GOD! We have support Trey! I'm so sorry I missed the past few days! JG, like we said before, most schools only require 90 prereq university hours. If your school provides a co program with NYCC, more power to them. However, a lot of students don't necessarily know what they want to do with their Bachelors when going thru undergrad (I went back and forth from PT, to DC, to DO...to ....massage therapist....) A lot of people have their bachelors, no matter what the minimum requirement is. We are very well educated, I promise you!
dmon, thanks for backing up the chiro sector while we were away. You rock! macman, you rock too, it looks like we are getting some more diverse perspectives in here. It's all I ever wanted! People with open minds!!! (no offense Ponyboy :p ) I really think this could turn into something....good? Maybe?
Like someone said (and I forget who said it....sorry!) if you respect others in the healthcare profession, their is no limit to what we can accomplish for the patient. We are all trained differently, we look at each case slightly differently and each have something to offer the patient. (in most cases anyway!!!)
oh, Ponyboy, btw, sorry if I grossly misjudged time spent with patients on the MD's part, it was purely hearsay, and not always the case. have a good night all!
 
that was macman who said that (above quote from my previous post)....well put!!!
 
and thanks for jumping in solie!
oh, and Happy...no, this thread will NEVER DIE! I thought it might a few times, but no, we just keep reviving it....
 
DOtobe: I apologize if I underreported the number of hours for LECOM. I was repeating what a DO resident had said to me. My bad.
 
No problem Treybird! :D
 
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