Oregon BOP's take on the DEA forwarding issue

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Lnsean said:
Of course, you were just salty af about this whole debate, so you decided to take bits and pieces of Loren's presentation on a completely different issue to defame her integrity on our current issue being debated. There was no way for you to defend yourself against Loren's letter response to the NABP, stating that the DEA does not allow the transfer of unfilled controls, so you're trying to attack her now.



So? What does her presentation on changes to CII prescriptions have to do anything with what were debating? Oh right, you're personally attacking her integrity...I see...even after she has explicitly told you that what's in her presentation does not establish legal standards. Maybe someone here should email her / DEA and cite your claim and ask her why she did that...otherwise you don't know why she did that.



What you need to understand is that, unless you have unquestionable evidence, you should not be telling people to break laws or regulations. You should not be making dubious claims, inferences on matters of law; you don't have the authority to do any of this. You got caught misquoting the DEA, misquoting a presentation in an effort to defame the presenter and her integrity on an unrelated issue....just so you could win an argument. What does her presentation on changes in CII prescription have to do anything with our debate on transferring unfilled controlled scripts? You are merely attacking her character/integrity at this point.

Look, if you're going after Loren's character and integrity then you should find someone else to debate that. Make another thread and talk it over with your buddies. I don't want to be involved in any of these immature, low-ball, unprofessional and shady af tactics.
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Hahahah, incredible.

"You tricked me into pointing out that my Ultimate Source of Information is unreliable by simply quoting his presentation, so now I'm going to go on a tirade attacking your character.

I am upset because I l realize how contradictory this is"

-Lnsean


Please quote and bold the part of my posts that are out of context.

Also please quote and bold the "misquoted" section of my post.
 
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"I am going to simultaneously claim that Loren's email to nabp is legal advisement and her presentation stating the same thing is a totally different thing"
-lnsean


Can you please quote and bold the specific sections where I am defaming her
 
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CetiAlphaFive said:
"I am going to simultaneously claim that Loren's email to nabp is legal advisement and her presentation stating the same thing is a totally different thing"
-lnsean


Can you please quote and bold the specific sections where I am defaming her
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What does her presentation on CII changes have to do with transferring unfilled controls though? It seems you're trying to change the subject...lol.
 
CetiAlphaFive said:
Hahahah, incredible.

"You tricked me into pointing out that my Ultimate Source of Information is unreliable by simply quoting his presentation, so now I'm going to go on a tirade attacking your character.

I am upset because I l realize how contradictory this is"

-Lnsean


Please quote and bold the part of my posts that are out of context.

Also please quote and bold the "misquoted" section of my post.
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Again, what does her presentation on CII changes have to do with transferring unfilled controlled substances? It seems you're trying to change the subject...lol.

Please quote and bold the part of my posts that are out of context.

Also please quote and bold the "misquoted" section of my post.
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That's easy. You are quoting a presentation. So where is the link to the audio/video?
 
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LOREN IS NOT A FEMALE NAME. Loren is a male. Please refer to him as such.
 
Lnsean said:
What does her presentation on CII changes have to do with transferring unfilled controls though? It seems you're trying to change the subject...lol.
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It was meant to illustrate that you're a reactionary person incapable of critical thought.

I rightly assumed that you'd take criticism of the person you're appealing to as an authority figure as a personal attack.
You can't think or interpret law for yourself, so you find it offensive when others attempt to.

That is why you're incapable of quoting specific parts of my posts.
You're reacting without reasoning.

That's why you're defending Loren and not the slide itself.

The slide is clearly wrong.

What do you expect the context or audio/video to be?
"Please completely ignore this slide, it's totally wrong."

Seriously, articulate what the "context" could possibly be. Don't just say it's out of context, provide potential reasonable context.
 
CetiAlphaFive said:
It was meant to illustrate that you're a reactionary person incapable of critical thought.


What do you expect the context or audio/video to be?
"Please completely ignore this slide, it's totally wrong."

Seriously, articulate what the "context" could possibly be. Don't just say it's out of context, provide potential reasonable context.
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That's up to me and everyone else to decide for our own. You are quoting a presentation, you should link the video so that everyone can be the judge of that. Why are you hiding that? Did the presentation even happen? Was Loren the one presenting? You are taking his slides out of context.
 
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Lnsean said:
That's up to me and everyone else to decide for our own. You are quoting a presentation, you should link the video so that everyone can be the judge of that. Why are you hiding that? Did the presentation even happen? Was Loren the one presenting? You are taking his slides out of context.
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Lnsean said:
That's up to me and everyone else to decide for our own. You are quoting a presentation, you should link the video so that everyone can be the judge of that. Why are you hiding that? Did the presentation even happen? Was Loren the one presenting? You are taking his slides out of context.
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This is truly your magnum opus.

I received the notification that you replied and instantly started hearing Gregorian chants and vocalizations.

I am not worthy to reply to this
 
CetiAlphaFive said:
This is truly your magnum opus.

I received the notification that you replied and instantly started hearing Gregorian chants and vocalizations.

I am not worthy to reply to this
Click to expand...

Bro, you are making one of the most tremendous claims in pharmacy practice: that the DEA does not allow changes to CII prescriptions. You have cited an oral presentation by DEA official Loren Miller that was given in December that he was the one that said this. You are claiming that he said this based on 2-3 slides from his deck despite his legal disclaimer. You should provide the sources and link for the video so that every pharmacist can watch and verify this information. I am a law abiding pharmacist, and I need to know for sure as to what I can and cannot do tomorrow at work regarding this issue.

Please link the video of the presentation so everyone here can watch it.
 
zelman said:
I believe it is actually true. It was a flub by the DEA while writing the preamble to the proposed regulation to allow a prescribed to issue multiple C2 prescriptions to be filled sequentially. I don’t know if they ever fixed it (though they said they intended to back in 2007 when it happened)

https://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/mtgs/drug_chemical/2011/gallagher.pdf
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Sources on the presentation and links to the video please...this is industry-changing. His slide decks has a legal disclaimer at the beginning, so it's conflicting. Also, this was Dec 2017...just a couple months ago...not 2007...and that's the wrong slide deck you're quoting....lol...like come on man...I know they have the same color scheme but they're not the same decks.
 
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This is just too funny. How is it when a person who sends a letter out with the following after their name: Associate Section Chief Liaison and Policy Section Diversion Control Division Drug Enforcement Administration, represents the DEA and what they say is the law but when they give a presentation, it doesn't? You either know the law or you don't.



This is not actually a question and I do not want a response.
 
wagrxm2000 said:
This is just too funny. How is it when a person who sends a letter out with the following after their name: Associate Section Chief Liaison and Policy Section Diversion Control Division Drug Enforcement Administration, represents the DEA and what they say is the law but when they give a presentation, it doesn't? You either know the law or you don't.



This is not actually a question and I do not want a response.
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Ummm because he specifically had a slide with a legal disclaimer saying that what is in his slides are not law? Like do you even read?

That's why I am asking for the video, so we'll know for sure if he showed people the legal disclaimer or not. Please provide the source for this. If you are quoting a presentation then it is expected that you have the video for this. Please hurry, this has major implication on current practicing guidelines and my next shift is coming up soon. I want to know if I can make changes to CII scripts.

So I'll turn this question back on you, how is it that you can quote from a presentation someone gave, but you cannot provide the video or don't want to provide it?

Provide the video so that everyone here can watch it together and we can discuss it. All I'm asking is for you to back up your claims with evidence.
 
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This just in:


In bird law, if you provide a disclaimer, it means everything you say or write should be interpreted to mean the opposite of what you very clearly wrote.
 
CetiAlphaFive said:
This just in:


In bird law, if you provide a disclaimer, it means everything you say or write should be interpreted to mean the opposite of what you very clearly wrote.
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Could you provide the video to the presentation that you're quoting from and what you claim he said? Let's get the basics down first before we discuss legal disclaimers and stuff. I want to see if the man even gave the presentation and what he said.
 
Lnsean said:
Could you provide the video to the presentation that you're quoting from and what you claim he said? Let's get the basics down first before we discuss legal disclaimers and stuff. I want to see if the man even gave the presentation and what he said.
Click to expand...

Advanced bird law:

In order for a written statement to be valid, someone has to video tape you while you say the words.
 
CetiAlphaFive said:
Advanced bird law:

In order for a written statement to be valid, someone has to video tape you while you say the words.
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You made a claim, I just want the sources. This is very very basic stuff. You said Loren Miller gave a presentation in December where he said the DEA does not allow changes to CII prescriptions. This has major implications on the way we practice; I want the video...not just for me...but for all the pharmacists practicing out there. This is your claim, not mine.

Like why are you hiding the video? I know you have it. Is it because it wasn't him? He never gave the presentation? It was someone else? Did he skip over some slides and not others? Maybe he foresaw you discrediting him 3 months later and decided not to use slides at all. So many questions that can be answered if you would just release it.
 
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I suppose we should disregard the Gettysburg address since we don’t have video of Abraham Lincoln giving it. No one should ever quote it again unless they can produce the video. Otherwise it is out of context.

Do you see how crazy this sounds? And we don’t even have the power point slides from Gettysburg!
 
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owlegrad said:
I suppose we should disregard the Gettysburg address since we don’t have video of Abraham Lincoln giving it. No one should ever quote it again unless they can produce the video. Otherwise it is out of context.

Do you see how crazy this sounds? And we don’t even have the power point slides from Gettysburg!
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They didn't have the capability back then, and to be honest, your buddy's reputation isn't on the same line as Lincoln's....lol. Like, how you even compared your friend's integrity to that of Lincoln is beyond me. Your friend had been caught lying and misquoting people/DEA before. I know your buddy has the video to Loren's presentation but is refusing to link it because the actual presentation doesn't support his claims. I hear that Loren didn't even use that slide deck.

I mean...this is his claim...he is attacking Loren's character, so he should provide the sources when asked. The problem is that...he's an amateur debater who felt in the trap of quoting a presentation. That's why they teach you in school to avoid quoting presentations. LOL. I have already won both arguments; I'm just playing with my food at this point really...it's amusing to me.
 
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owlegrad said:
I suppose we should disregard the Gettysburg address since we don’t have video of Abraham Lincoln giving it. No one should ever quote it again unless they can produce the video. Otherwise it is out of context.

Do you see how crazy this sounds? And we don’t even have the power point slides from Gettysburg!
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I think it's safe to say...... Thread over, check and mate:biglove::banana::zip::bow::highfive::soexcited::clap:👍
 
wagrxm2000 said:
I think it's safe to say...... Thread over, check and mate:biglove::banana::zip::bow::highfive::soexcited::clap:👍
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lol...spoken like a 5 year old...don't come out yet...it's not safe. There's still conflict here; i'll tell you when it's safe to come out.
 
Lnsean said:
They didn't have the capability back then, and to be honest, your buddy's reputation isn't on the same line as Lincoln's....lol. Like, how you even compared your friend's integrity to that of Lincoln is beyond me. Your friend had been caught lying and misquoting people/DEA before. I know your buddy has the video to Loren's presentation but is refusing to link it because the actual presentation doesn't support his claims. I hear that Loren didn't even use that slide deck.

I mean...this is his claim...he is attacking Loren's character, so he should provide the sources when asked. The problem is that...he's an amateur debater who felt in the trap of quoting a presentation. That's why they teach you in school to avoid quoting presentations. LOL. I have already won both arguments; I'm just playing with my food at this point really...it's amusing to me.
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How dare you ultralibel turboslander me on the bird record.

Why are you hiding the video footage of me typing these posts you claim I made.
 
CetiAlphaFive said:
How dare you ultralibel turboslander me on the bird record.

Why are you hiding the video footage of me typing these posts you claim I made.
Click to expand...

I wasn't the one that quoted from a presentation, you did...lol. Bro, you made a claim. I'm just asking for the full sources. I had to link the entire slide deck for you last time because you conveniently left out the legal disclaimer. Why are you hiding the video though..I know you have it.
 
The Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), Office of Diversion Control, sponsored the 23rd DEA National Conference on Pharmaceutical and Chemical Diversion, December 12 – 13, 2017 in Dallas, Texas. Attendees included approximately 96 representatives from various federal, state and local government law enforcement and regulatory agencies. The purpose of this national conference is to educate federal, state and local regulatory and law enforcement personnel on current trends and issues involving pharmaceutical controlled substances and DEA regulated (listed) chemicals. Federal, state and local representatives also had an opportunity to interact with DEA representatives to discuss issues or concerns on behalf of their federal agency, state or region. This conference is held on an annual basis and is one of the mechanisms used by the Diversion Control Division to foster communication and cooperation with its state and local counterparts.

Seems like a legit presentation
 
wagrxm2000 said:
The Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), Office of Diversion Control, sponsored the 23rd DEA National Conference on Pharmaceutical and Chemical Diversion, December 12 – 13, 2017 in Dallas, Texas. Attendees included approximately 96 representatives from various federal, state and local government law enforcement and regulatory agencies. The purpose of this national conference is to educate federal, state and local regulatory and law enforcement personnel on current trends and issues involving pharmaceutical controlled substances and DEA regulated (listed) chemicals. Federal, state and local representatives also had an opportunity to interact with DEA representatives to discuss issues or concerns on behalf of their federal agency, state or region. This conference is held on an annual basis and is one of the mechanisms used by the Diversion Control Division to foster communication and cooperation with its state and local counterparts.

Seems like a legit presentation
Click to expand...

You’re taking that out of context.
 
wagrxm2000 said:
The Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), Office of Diversion Control, sponsored the 23rd DEA National Conference on Pharmaceutical and Chemical Diversion, December 12 – 13, 2017 in Dallas, Texas. Attendees included approximately 96 representatives from various federal, state and local government law enforcement and regulatory agencies. The purpose of this national conference is to educate federal, state and local regulatory and law enforcement personnel on current trends and issues involving pharmaceutical controlled substances and DEA regulated (listed) chemicals. Federal, state and local representatives also had an opportunity to interact with DEA representatives to discuss issues or concerns on behalf of their federal agency, state or region. This conference is held on an annual basis and is one of the mechanisms used by the Diversion Control Division to foster communication and cooperation with its state and local counterparts.

Seems like a legit presentation
Click to expand...


It says nothing in there about Loren making a presentation or using that slide deck or what was said. Your friend quoted from a presentation, not a description of one. He needs to link the full slide deck AND the source video for the actual presentation, so we can all watch and come to that conclusion ourselves.
 
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owlegrad said:
You’re taking that out of context.
Click to expand...

I shouldn't have to explain myself just to get sources for what your friend is claiming. All he needs to do is link the full slide deck and the source video for the presentation so everyone can watch it. It's pretty simple. He's being dishonest by hiding the video.

IF you cannot provide complete sources, then retract your statement. Simple.
 
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owlegrad said:
Why do you think you have to record a presentation for it to count? It saddens me to post this but here is that the MLA has to say about citing a presentation (you will notice that there is nothing about including the full slide deck or providing a video, elements that Lnsean has made up out of think air): How do I cite an image from a slide presentation on the Web or from a lecture I attend? – The MLA Style Center
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Game set and match, the show is over folks.

:hello:

I'm done with this thread unless something new comes up. It's clear Loren is not a legitimate source.

To everyone, transfer if you want but don't if your company says not to.

(See signature)
 
If I thought the slightest chance of getting a sane answer existed, I'd ask why he "knows" I have the video footage.

owlegrad said:
Why do you think you have to record a presentation for it to count? It saddens me to post this but here is that the MLA has to say about citing a presentation (you will notice that there is nothing about including the full slide deck or providing a video, elements that Lnsean has made up out of think air): How do I cite an image from a slide presentation on the Web or from a lecture I attend? – The MLA Style Center
Click to expand...
 
owlegrad said:
Why do you think you have to record a presentation for it to count?
Click to expand...

That's never for you to decide. As someone presenting a claim, you are obligated to present the sources for your claims. If you are citing someone's presentation, you should provide the sources to the slide deck as well as the presentation itself. You are claiming that Loren Miller gave this presentation and told everyone that the DEA does not allow changes to CII prescriptions despite the legal disclaimer in the slide deck; then you should provide the sources for that.

What's sad is that you guys don't have the sources or are not willing to share it because it contradicts your claim. That's probably why.

owlegrad said:
How do I cite an image from a slide presentation on the Web or from a lecture I attend? – The MLA Style Center
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This tells you how to format your citations...it doesn't excuse you from providing your sources on a claim when someone is requesting it. I couldn't care less if you don't properly cite it...lol...I just need a link to the presentation....lol....no bibliography page needed okay? Just a link to the video of the presentation will do.
 
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Lnsean said:
That's never for you to decide.
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Actually you are the one for whom it is not yours to decide. There is no obligation to provide a video when citing a presentation. If there was no presentation given before the advent of video recording could be cited.

You are being silly and you are just factually incorrect. Can you show me one reputable source that claims presentations must be recorded in order to be cited?
 
owlegrad said:
Actually you are the one for whom it is not yours to decide. There is no obligation to provide a video when citing a presentation. If there was no presentation given before the advent of video recording could be cited.

You are being silly and you are just factually incorrect. Can you show me one reputable source that claims presentations must be recorded in order to be cited?
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There is an obligation. How do I know that Loren Miller gave that presentation and that slide deck? You made the claim. The obligation rests on you to prove it. It is never my duty to make the argument for you. LOL.
 
BenJammin said:
Principal Deputy Administrator of the DEA
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We should bring in Loren Miller too...so he can defend himself. I'm sure one of you lurkers have his email or something.
 
Guys stop. Lnsean declared themselves the winner and therefore they win. It's no use continuing to debate this. He is clearly the master debater while the rest of you are just amateurs.
 
Niosh said:
Guys stop. Lnsean declared themselves the winner and therefore they win. It's no use continuing to debate this. He is clearly the master debater while the rest of you are just amateurs.
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Thanks. I take that title very lightly. IT's not that i'm a masterbatordebator but it's because they're noobs...they started arguing about unfilled scripts and then transitioned to arguing CII changes and now MLA citations. lol
 
If any of you has Loren Miller's contacts...link him this thread so he can come in here and defend himself against some of the people that are calling him out on his slides...the people that took him out of context...ignored his legal disclaimer...and only cited 3 slides out of his deck. I tried my best to defend his honor.
 
I yield. I can't argue with someone who unironicly claims that presentations cannot be cited without video and stands by that answer even after being shown that MLA allows for that exact type of citation.
 
owlegrad said:
I yield. I can't argue with someone who unironicly claims that presentations cannot be cited without video and stands by that answer even after being shown that MLA allows for that exact type of citation.
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I never said they cannot be cited. I said it doesn't prove that he gave the presentation and that specific deck. I asked you for the video source to prove that he gave the presentation, that he said what you claimed he said. He may have used another deck, told everyone that these statements are wrong...we don't know. I am asking you one more time for all the sources. Make it transparent so everyone here can watch the presentation and compare. This is your obligation.

You spend some much time trying not to provide the sources when all it takes is one link to settle all of this. Post the video and let everyone watch and judge for themselves OR someone here with Loren's contacts...link him this thread so he can come in here himself.
 
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I don't have a link to a video of that presentation. What now?! If only I could cite a presentation without having the video. Oh wait, that's right, I can.

There is no obligation to provide video for a presentation. If there was no presentation given before video cameras were invented could be cited. MLA is one of the definitive authorities on citing sources and they permit presentations to be cited without video. Why should I trust some random internet poster over the MLA? Are you an authority on citing sources now? Or are you just pretending to be an expert?
 
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