ortho attending AMA

Burrell College of Osteopathic Medicine
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Thank you for being so active on this forum and helping us all out! My husband had back surgery when he was in his late teens (this is nearly 20 years ago at this point), and his surgeon was an orthopedic surgeon who specializes in pediatrics - particularly spina bifida, club feet, trauma, and limb deformity. I am interested in similar pediatric orthopedics and was wondering how I would eventually get involved in this type of subspecialty. I'm matriculating this year, so I am just now starting to explore possible specialties.
 
OrthoTraumaMD said:
@Winged Scapula
Can you help? Is this possible? To sticky something within a thread? Specifically the word documents posted on 3/31?


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ekmf27050 said:
I can email the originals or put them somewhere else, whatever is easiest and makes the most sense
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Would it be okay to wait on this for a while? I have an idea on what to do but it may take some time. It will also address the minimum number of stickies needed for the forum.
 
Lawper said:
Would it be okay to wait on this for a while? I have an idea on what to do but it may take some time. It will also address the minimum number of stickies needed for the forum.
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Of course. Anytime.
@Winged Scapula, I don’t necessarily think a separate thread or sticky is necessary. I was just curious. Thank you for the help though.


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DBC03 said:
Thank you for being so active on this forum and helping us all out! My husband had back surgery when he was in his late teens (this is nearly 20 years ago at this point), and his surgeon was an orthopedic surgeon who specializes in pediatrics - particularly spina bifida, club feet, trauma, and limb deformity. I am interested in similar pediatric orthopedics and was wondering how I would eventually get involved in this type of subspecialty. I'm matriculating this year, so I am just now starting to explore possible specialties.
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You can do a pediatric orthopaedic fellowship after ortho residency. It is one of the subspecialties within our field. But you need to do an ortho residency first. Like all of our subspecialties, it is a match, which takes place in your fourth year of residency.


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Lawper said:
Would it be okay to wait on this for a while? I have an idea on what to do but it may take some time. It will also address the minimum number of stickies needed for the forum.
Click to expand...
Just let me know if you need anything in a different format 🙂

@OrthoTraumaMD I did end up leaving this Q/A out, I apologize if it compromises valuable information.

cbrons said:
Ur a female in ortho?

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OrthoTraumaMD said:
Yes.
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ekmf27050 said:
Just let me know if you need anything in a different format 🙂

@OrthoTraumaMD I did end up leaving this Q/A out, I apologize if it compromises valuable information.
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Damn, you left out the most liked of my posts, and possibly the most interesting thing about me... jk jk


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Hello!

An interesting topic during a post-match panel came up about questions to students during interviews on where they were applying and ranking programs. The NRMP seems to allow students to volunteer this information, but they prohibit programs from asking applicants (Policy FAQs: Applicant - The Match, National Resident Matching Program).
I understand that information is crucial during the match process for programs in addition to students, but when asked "So where are we on your rank list," would it be bad to not want to disclose any information about your rank list? I have heard from recently matched students that saying "I am ranking your program very highly" often means "you are not #1" to program directors, which could send you lower on their list.

I've also heard of a program chairman personally contacting an applicant just before rank lists were due to ask if the applicant was ranking their program #1. The applicant told them "yes" (which was truthful) but didn't match there.

Can you talk a little about your thoughts on this and possibly some advice for students applying in future cycles? I apologize if this has been answered before. I am currently reading through this AMA, but have not read all of it yet.

Thank you in advance.
 
jahn019 said:
Hello!

An interesting topic during a post-match panel came up about questions to students during interviews on where they were applying and ranking programs. The NRMP seems to allow students to volunteer this information, but they prohibit programs from asking applicants (Policy FAQs: Applicant - The Match, National Resident Matching Program).
I understand that information is crucial during the match process for programs in addition to students, but when asked "So where are we on your rank list," would it be bad to not want to disclose any information about your rank list? I have heard from recently matched students that saying "I am ranking your program very highly" often means "you are not #1" to program directors, which could send you lower on their list.

I've also heard of a program chairman personally contacting an applicant just before rank lists were due to ask if the applicant was ranking their program #1. The applicant told them "yes" (which was truthful) but didn't match there.

Can you talk a little about your thoughts on this and possibly some advice for students applying in future cycles? I apologize if this has been answered before. I am currently reading through this AMA, but have not read all of it yet.

Thank you in advance.
Click to expand...

Right above on this same page are a few documents that have been compiled by one of the members of her answers. Check there rather than searching everything.
 
jahn019 said:
Hello!

An interesting topic during a post-match panel came up about questions to students during interviews on where they were applying and ranking programs. The NRMP seems to allow students to volunteer this information, but they prohibit programs from asking applicants (Policy FAQs: Applicant - The Match, National Resident Matching Program).
I understand that information is crucial during the match process for programs in addition to students, but when asked "So where are we on your rank list," would it be bad to not want to disclose any information about your rank list? I have heard from recently matched students that saying "I am ranking your program very highly" often means "you are not #1" to program directors, which could send you lower on their list.

I've also heard of a program chairman personally contacting an applicant just before rank lists were due to ask if the applicant was ranking their program #1. The applicant told them "yes" (which was truthful) but didn't match there.

Can you talk a little about your thoughts on this and possibly some advice for students applying in future cycles? I apologize if this has been answered before. I am currently reading through this AMA, but have not read all of it yet.

Thank you in advance.
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Those questions are illegal. I’ve never heard of a program asking the applicant where they ranked. And if they have, they could be seriously burned for it. I would not answer that kind of question, at all. And in terms of the chairman calling, that’s terrible. Nothing is set in stone until you get that contract, don’t trust any phone call.


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OrthoTraumaMD said:
Those questions are illegal. I’ve never heard of a program asking the applicant where they ranked. And if they have, they could be seriously burned for it. I would not answer that kind of question, at all. And in terms of the chairman calling, that’s terrible. Nothing is set in stone until you get that contract, don’t trust any phone call.


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I've heard of this happening too. Why do you they do this? Is it to get the best applicants?
 
Hello again,

Ive been to a few morning reports at my home ortho program, and I noticed that the trauma attendings would often ask "Who did that reduction?" after seeing a post-reduction film. Do you consider the quality of fracture reductions done by residents to be one of the big ways that set them apart for you? If so, Im assuming that it would be valuable to learn how to reduce fractures well as a med student before going on aways. Would you recommend that?

Thank you in advance.
 
jahn019 said:
Hello again,

Ive been to a few morning reports at my home ortho program, and I noticed that the trauma attendings would often ask "Who did that reduction?" after seeing a post-reduction film. Do you consider the quality of fracture reductions done by residents to be one of the big ways that set them apart for you? If so, Im assuming that it would be valuable to learn how to reduce fractures well as a med student before going on aways. Would you recommend that?

Thank you in advance.
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Yes good reductions matter, because in the distal radius for example, it can keep you from getting surgery. It doesn’t “set a resident apart” unless they’re consistently bad at it. I expect them to be bad initially, but they should become better with time.
You learn how to reduce fractures when you’re a resident. As a med student, I doubt you will be allowed to do any.


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A resident was asked why OB/GYN on the med school sub. This was part of his response:

"It's very physical. Ortho nerds have deluded themselves into thinking they're the jock specialty--reality of it is nothing in ortho comes to the physicality of a tough delivery, managing patients in labor, or vaginal and pelvic surgery"

What do you think about this? Lol.
 
Fracture said:
A resident was asked why OB/GYN on the med school sub. This was part of his response:

"It's very physical. Ortho nerds have deluded themselves into thinking they're the jock specialty--reality of it is nothing in ortho comes to the physicality of a tough delivery, managing patients in labor, or vaginal and pelvic surgery"

What do you think about this? Lol.
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Translation:
1) I didn’t have the grades to get into ortho, so now I stare at vaginas all day, and I can’t even f*** them.
2) I’m doing a job that literally consists of watching a natural process that happened for centuries without a doctor’s involvement.
3) I don’t know what orthopaedic surgeons do, or that they actually perform pelvic surgery.

I’d love to see this guy try to reduce a hip dislocation. I’ll wait.

Edit: this only serves to strengthen my opinion that most obgyn residents are absolute b***es. Even the dudes, apparently.


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Last edited:
OrthoTraumaMD said:
Translation:
1) I didn’t have the grades to get into ortho, so now I stare at vaginas all day, and I can’t even f*** them.
2) I’m doing a job that literally consists of watching a natural process that happened for centuries without a doctor’s involvement.
3) I don’t know what orthopaedic surgeons do, or that they actually perform pelvic surgery.

I’d love to see this guy try to reduce a hip dislocation. I’ll wait.

Edit: this only serves to strengthen my opinion that most obgyn residents are absolute b***es. Even the dudes, apparently.


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Click to expand...

Lol! Thanks for your response. It was more or less what I was expecting. This is great, lol.
 
Fracture said:
A resident was asked why OB/GYN on the med school sub. This was part of his response:

"It's very physical. Ortho nerds have deluded themselves into thinking they're the jock specialty--reality of it is nothing in ortho comes to the physicality of a tough delivery, managing patients in labor, or vaginal and pelvic surgery"

What do you think about this? Lol.
Click to expand...

That dude can have fun with that.

I’ll take my peds reductions and deadlif... err... posterior hip reductions any day.
 
Dires said:
That dude can have fun with that.

I’ll take my peds reductions and deadlif... err... posterior hip reductions any day.
Click to expand...

Screaming “push, push” at a delivering mother doesn’t count as exercise.

But seriously, the poor guy is just bitter and jealous cause most of his superiors are women and he’s getting whipped all day long. No wonder he wants to portray himself as a “jock.” It’s typical defensive behavior. Real tough guys don’t have to prove anything to anyone.


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Fracture said:
A resident was asked why OB/GYN on the med school sub. This was part of his response:

"It's very physical. Ortho nerds have deluded themselves into thinking they're the jock specialty--reality of it is nothing in ortho comes to the physicality of a tough delivery, managing patients in labor, or vaginal and pelvic surgery"

What do you think about this? Lol.
Click to expand...

Lol, dude’s been emasculated.

I thought about doing Ob/Gyn for like a day, omg, what a disaster that would have been. No thanks.
 
At a Q and A panel recently, I got asked what three things i thought were the most important in helping me make it through residency and fellowship. It was a fun question and I thought I would share:
1. My then-boyfriend, now husband. It’s a tough process for anyone, but to go through it alone is brutal. If you have an SO who cares about you and makes an effort to understand what you’re going through, even if they can’t understand it all, it lessens the burden just a bit. They can also keep you from devolving into a douchey shell of a person who only cares about themselves. Everyone will develop defensiveness with the increased amount of stress in residency, and burnout is a real and terrible thing that can sneak up on you and affect your relationship. It takes a strong partner to say, “listen, you’re being a jerk. I know you’re stressed, but you need to act like a human being.”

Agreed, although at times I felt like I couldn't be a good significant other and or a good resident. I felt bad either way, whether spending more time at home with SO, or working/studying too much. It does give you perspective on things though and keeps you grounded as you said.

2. A hobby. Usually in a surgical residency, you only have time for one, but doing something non work related that you enjoy, every day, even if you’re tired, can help remind you that there is a life outside of residency, one that you will someday rejoin.

Couldn't agree more

3. Keeping your eye on the prize. The weeks can seem so long, and the exhaustion and lack of sleep can break even the toughest of us. But remembering there is an end, and at the end of that road is independence, makes the road itself much easier. I used to tell myself during the bad times, “X months down, Y months to go.” Lord knows it helped during night float, haha. And yes we did night float for months at a time...shudder.

I don't know, I may be in minority here. I can honestly say I truly enjoyed my residency. There wasn't a day, outside of my spine rotation, that I didn't look forward to going to work. Yeah, days were long, but it was a lot of fun learning, taking care of patients, and fixing bones. My coresidents were great people, I loved working with them. It's almost to the finish line here, and while it definitely feels great to be finishing, I will miss being a resident, believe it or not.
 
DarkHorizon said:
I don't know, I may be in minority here. I can honestly say I truly enjoyed my residency. There wasn't a day, outside of my spine rotation, that I didn't look forward to going to work. Yeah, days were long, but it was a lot of fun learning, taking care of patients, and fixing bones. My coresidents were great people, I loved working with them. It's almost to the finish line here, and while it definitely feels great to be finishing, I will miss being a resident, believe it or not.
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Oh, don’t get me wrong, I loved my residency. But as you know well, some are more strenuous than others, and within a residency, some rotations are worse than others (haha agree on spine there). I had to do in house call even as a chief, we were incredibly busy and it got real old real quick. So during the really exhausting months, it was a nice thing to tell myself, that someday I wouldn’t have to do that anymore.


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I’m sorry if this sounds silly because I’m sure there’s a lot of variables involved but I’d rather ask for peace of mind. I’m an MSI and I have an interest in surgery but I also suffer from back problems / pain ever since I was 18 y/o. Sometimes I go stretches where it’s really good and sometimes I hurt my back while boxing, etc. Do you know of any residents who have suffered through a residency with some form of chronic back pain? My biggest issue is usually sitting down when my back flares up. Any insight is appreciated, thank you.
 
jcorpsmanMD said:
I’m sorry if this sounds silly because I’m sure there’s a lot of variables involved but I’d rather ask for peace of mind. I’m an MSI and I have an interest in surgery but I also suffer from back problems / pain ever since I was 18 y/o. Sometimes I go stretches where it’s really good and sometimes I hurt my back while boxing, etc. Do you know of any residents who have suffered through a residency with some form of chronic back pain? My biggest issue is usually sitting down when my back flares up. Any insight is appreciated, thank you.
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Yes. As long as you’re not taking narcotics or something like that, you adapt. But I would make sure you limit the activities that make your pain flare up when you are in residency, because you don’t want to be calling off and leaving work for your classmates to pick up.


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I know that you're a traumatologist, but another ortho attending on here said that peds ortho tends to have a "not so good" lifestyle. Do you think that this is true for the most part? If it is, why? Would it be due to parents always calling because of questions/concerns?
 
Hello OrthoTraumaMD,
How much microsurgery do you do as an orthopedic surgeon in training and beyond? Are there minimum requirements in residency? If its dependent on the subspecialty, which are microsurgery heavy and which are less so? Again, appreciate you taking the time to do this!
 
Fracture said:
I know that you're a traumatologist, but another ortho attending on here said that peds ortho tends to have a "not so good" lifestyle. Do you think that this is true for the most part? If it is, why? Would it be due to parents always calling because of questions/concerns?
Click to expand...

No. Pediatrics has an excellent lifestyle. As long as you can handle dealing with parents.


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hopeful123456789 said:
Hello OrthoTraumaMD,
How much microsurgery do you do as an orthopedic surgeon in training and beyond? Are there minimum requirements in residency? If its dependent on the subspecialty, which are microsurgery heavy and which are less so? Again, appreciate you taking the time to do this!
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I do not do any. I did very little in my residency. If you train in a place that has microsurgery, you do it during your hand rotation. As it is, only hand surgeons do it, and even then, not all of them.


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OrthoTraumaMD said:
No. Pediatrics has an excellent lifestyle. As long as you can handle dealing with parents.


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By excellent lifestyle do you mean 60 hours/week on average versus 80? lol just asking because I’ve been exploring ortho as an option lately and really enjoyed shadowing pedi ortho, but am worried about the lifestyle since I’m not the workaholic type. Thank you for this thread OrthoTraumaMD!
 
premed1234567891011 said:
By excellent lifestyle do you mean 60 hours/week on average versus 80? lol just asking because I’ve been exploring ortho as an option lately and really enjoyed shadowing pedi ortho, but am worried about the lifestyle since I’m not the workaholic type. Thank you for this thread OrthoTraumaMD!
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No. More like 50-60. The pediatric orthopedic surgeons I know, especially who are in private practice, are doing just fine. That is why most females go either into hand or pediatrics. It allows time for family.


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halfwaycrooks said:
Hi @OrthoTraumaMD
What are 5 of the highest yield trauma related topics you expect sub i’s to know before setting foot in the OR a side from anatomy related to the case? Fracture classifications or anything like that?
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Anatomy is enough. If you know classifications it’s okay but not necessary. Basic things like open fracture grading, and potential complications like PE and compartment syndrome.


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OrthoTraumaMD said:
Anatomy is enough. If you know classifications it’s okay but not necessary. Basic things like open fracture grading, and potential complications like PE and compartment syndrome.


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If someone is super knowledgeable does that increase their chance at matching you think? Might seem like a dumb question but just curious if those people who gotten to know more ortho through extra rotations before aways have a significant advantage or if it's just about the same in how you appear to attendings.

We dont really get much ortho exposure here until it's about time to do aways meanwhile a buddy of mine gets to essentially do a full rotation with his institution before his actual Sub-I or any aways.
 
halfwaycrooks said:
Hi @OrthoTraumaMD
What are 5 of the highest yield trauma related topics you expect sub i’s to know before setting foot in the OR a side from anatomy related to the case? Fracture classifications or anything like that?
Click to expand...

If you’re super motivated, hip fractures, ankle fractures, tibia/femur Frsctures, distal radius fractures, and proximal humerus fractures. Get handbook of fractures and read these topics, understand the classifications and treatment indications. If you’re feeling even more motivated, get on orthobullets, read the above mentioned topics, and do the questions at the bottom to really solidify your knowledge.
 
pbrocks15 said:
If someone is super knowledgeable does that increase their chance at matching you think? Might seem like a dumb question but just curious if those people who gotten to know more ortho through extra rotations before aways have a significant advantage or if it's just about the same in how you appear to attendings.

We dont really get much ortho exposure here until it's about time to do aways meanwhile a buddy of mine gets to essentially do a full rotation with his institution before his actual Sub-I or any aways.
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No. I don’t care how much you know at baseline. I care about your enthusiasm in gaining that knowledge. I want to see preparedness and interest… If you know the answers to questions, that is great, but I place much more emphasis on hard work and honesty.


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OrthoTraumaMD said:
No. I don’t care how much you know at baseline. I care about your enthusiasm in gaining that knowledge. I want to see preparedness and interest… If you know the answers to questions, that is great, but I place much more emphasis on hard work and honesty.


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Click to expand...

Thanks! This makes me feel a little better, of course I'll do my best to prepare but there are definitely students out there that I've run into that have a higher baseline already.
 
OrthoTraumaMD said:
Translation:
1) I didn’t have the grades to get into ortho, so now I stare at vaginas all day, and I can’t even f*** them.
2) I’m doing a job that literally consists of watching a natural process that happened for centuries without a doctor’s involvement.
3) I don’t know what orthopaedic surgeons do, or that they actually perform pelvic surgery.

I’d love to see this guy try to reduce a hip dislocation. I’ll wait.

Edit: this only serves to strengthen my opinion that most obgyn residents are absolute b***es. Even the dudes, apparently.


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Click to expand...

Oh god. I rolled so hard at this. Straight gems. Why have I never read this thread?!

Commence guilty procrastination to read the entirety of this thread.


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pbrocks15 said:
Thanks! This makes me feel a little better, of course I'll do my best to prepare but there are definitely students out there that I've run into that have a higher baseline already.
Click to expand...

That’s okay. The vast majority of students know so little that it’s silly to see them trying to compete with each other as to who knows more about ortho. It’s like, on a 1-100 scale, they’re worrying about if they know 5%, while the student with the higher baseline only knows 7%. Ortho is so vast that you don’t even know how large the iceberg is until you enter residency. Even funnier are the students who did a year of ortho research and think they’re experts. Dunning-Kruger effect...


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Why do you think away rotations matter so much in ortho compared to other surgical subs? For example, in ENT it seems to be controversial about whether you should even do aways or not because of the chance of you not looking better than you do on paper.

I imagine that it's because there is such a high value placed on being a hard worker and likeability in ortho, so it must be demonstrated on away rotations. The letters that come out of them will speak to this, of course.
 
Fracture said:
Why do you think away rotations matter so much in ortho compared to other surgical subs? For example, in ENT it seems to be controversial about whether you should even do aways or not because of the chance of you not looking better than you do on paper.

I imagine that it's because there is such a high value placed on being a hard worker and likeability in ortho, so it must be demonstrated on away rotations. The letters that come out of them will speak to this, of course.
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Yes. It’s exactly for that reason. It is easy to fake your personality for 15 minutes during an interview. Much more difficult to do it in a full-fledged rotation. Auditioning matters in ortho, because the consequences of having even one bad resident are very severe. It is difficult to make up for that using the other residents. Consults come in, and if a crappy resident does poor reductions, is lazy, leaves stuff undone, it is much more difficult to make that up. So we place a lot of emphasis on seeing how the person actually functions.


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OrthoTraumaMD said:
Yes. It’s exactly for that reason. It is easy to fake your personality for 15 minutes during an interview. Much more difficult to do it in a full-fledged rotation. Auditioning matters in ortho, because the consequences of having even one bad resident are very severe. It is difficult to make up for that using the other residents. Consults come in, and if a crappy resident does poor reductions, is lazy, leaves stuff undone, it is much more difficult to make that up. So we place a lot of emphasis on seeing how the person actually functions.


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Click to expand...
So if someone doesn’t rotate at your program, is it still possible for them to match there? What makes an applicant stand out on paper since obviously you can’t rotate at every program you are interested in?
 
WPmed0209 said:
So if someone doesn’t rotate at your program, is it still possible for them to match there? What makes an applicant stand out on paper since obviously you can’t rotate at every program you are interested in?
Click to expand...

Absolutely possible. I myself was a non-rotator match.
As for what makes an applicant stand out on paper: letters of rec, especially if they are ones from people we know. It’s a small world. Many of us know one another.


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This may have been asked already, but do you feel it is hard to "fit in" in the ortho world if you're not super excited about sports? I don't dislike sports, but don't really watch them on a regular basis or anything... Many of the research projects available out there at my school are focused around sports, but that's not the part of ortho that excites me.
 
premed1234567891011 said:
This may have been asked already, but do you feel it is hard to "fit in" in the ortho world if you're not super excited about sports? I don't dislike sports, but don't really watch them on a regular basis or anything... Many of the research projects available out there at my school are focused around sports, but that's not the part of ortho that excites me.
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Yes, it was asked before in some form… The sports thing is a stereotype that does not apply to all of us. I have never followed sports, and I did not have a problem. You just have to be upfront about yourself, and what you like. This is not high school.


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How do you guys look at DO applicants with semi low scores in the ortho world (~230/560)? Do publications and good letters make a big diff? What advice would you give to someone interested in ortho applying from DO schools ?
 
DrGainzzz said:
How do you guys look at DO applicants with semi low scores in the ortho world (~230/560)? Do publications and good letters make a big diff? What advice would you give to someone interested in ortho applying from DO schools ?
Click to expand...

Look into DO programs or newly accredited Programs that were historically DO. Will be an uphill battle otherwise.
 
I was asked the following question on PM:

"I was hoping you might be able to give me some advice as I'll be starting medical school this fall. Orthopedics was the reason I wanted to become a doctor in the first place, but I have a wide range of interests, so I think I would be satisfied in a variety of specialties. Knowing the competitiveness of ortho and that the earlier I get started exploring the field, the better, I was looking at research opportunities at my school. Is it also competitive to get involved in ortho-related research, that you know if? Would it be obnoxious for me to contact people with projects that interest me now (...before school has even started), or should hold my horses and wait until I'm actually on campus in August to get in touch? What is the best way to communicate my interest in a project (e.g. how about something like "I'm interested in exploring orthopedics. Are there opportunities to become involved with [project name]? If not, do your or any residents need help on any other projects that I could assist with?") What would be a good game plan to stay competitive for ortho while allowing myself to "smell the other specialties"? (Thinking I should find a couple orthopedic surgeons to shadow during my first two years would be helpful, along with other specialists in fields of interest."

To answer:

The competitiveness of research in ortho depends on how academically active/productive your department is, and how many students want to do ortho at any given time. If there is one guy doing research and a ton of students who want to work with him, chances are it will be tough.

I would wait until you are actually a student to become involved with projects. Mostly because you may not even know the kind of research you want to do, and also because chances are you will be helping with data collection, and you cannot access data without having access to the EMR. The way you wrote out the "communicating interest" sentence is fine.

In terms of staying competitive, it again depends on your school and situation. I think shadowing is a good idea to keep you in a person's mind, but that becomes more important in third year as your match gets closer. If you do a few projects but then get involved in something else for a while, it's okay. As long as you keep the lines of communication open.
 
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