Professionalism?

[The new guy]

Since starting school, I've noticed the administration really emphasizes avoiding "being unprofessional" but they never give any concrete examples of what that means. What are some ways a med student might act unprofessionally? I mean besides the obvious examples of showing up drunk to class, etc.

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[EMDO2018]

poppin champagne in class,

 

[colbgw02]

And now it's time for the airing of the grievances.

 

[DermViser]

And now it's time for the airing of the grievances.

 

[The new guy]

And now it's time for the airing of the grievances.

I would love to hear from students who have been accused of unprofessionalism...because I have no idea what it means. I'm starting to wonder if it's just a catch all term for "I don't like you."

 

[Winged Scapula]

Here's my real life example of a lack of professionalism:

I have a 4th year student scheduled to rotate with me starting this week. I emailed him over 2 weeks ago, welcoming him to our practice, and provided a document about the rotation, suggested readings, etc and advised him that since I was out of the country, to contact my office before 4 pm on Friday 11/14 to confirm my schedule for 11/17 and where we would meet Monday morning. I resent the email last week when I hadn't heard from him and my office also stated that had no contact from him.

In preparation for students, I take less patients to allow time to teach, book cases for longer times to allow for student suturing and do not book surgical assistants. I make less money those months but because I enjoy teaching feel it's worth it.

Friday my office gets a FAX from the medical student coordinator that the student will not be doing the rotation with me; because I am out of the country, I don't find out about it until Monday am when I call the office to find out where the student is and they call the med ed office. I explain to them that I am disappointed in the lack of notice and was informed that they too were informed last minute by the student that they had decided to do another rotation (non surgical) during interview season because he felt it would allow for more time off. Apparently he had arranged the rotation with a different department and felt that since it was an approved elective, he didn't need to give anyone notice, including me or the Med Ed dept.

So I am concerned about the students lack of professionalism to not email me back, to not let me know they had changed their mind about the rotation and to let their school know as well. Maybe not a big deal to some and it's not on par with some other accusations of professional misconduct but it's this sort of thing that gets noticed negatively. Since the med Ed office agreed, this student will be talked to by them about professional behavior.

 

[DermViser]

Since starting school, I've noticed the administration really emphasizes avoiding "being unprofessional" but they never give any concrete examples of what that means. What are some ways a med student might act unprofessionally? I mean besides the obvious examples of showing up drunk to class, etc.

This might help with respect to your question on specific behaviors that are categorized as "unprofessional". I believe she's one of the people who first correlated unprofessional behaviors in medical school (looking at the Dean's letter) with future medical license action by state medical boards, which is why medical schools now emphasize this a lot.

 

[Ismet]

I would love to hear from students who have been accused of unprofessionalism...because I have no idea what it means. I'm starting to wonder if it's just a catch all term for "I don't like you."

I've never been accused of unprofessionalism, but a few examples I've heard:
1) Not replying to emails from faculty/administration in a timely fashion or at all
2) Showing up late to clinical duties, skipping required things
3) Unprofessional attire or grooming for clinical duties
4) Telling patients things you have no business telling them, or otherwise negatively affecting patient care
5) Social media stuff can get you in trouble too if it is related back to the med school or hospital. We're not allowed to post pics from social outings and stuff on our class FB page. I heard someone got in trouble one year for posting a picture taken in our library to "asians sleeping in the library" tumblr.

 

[PL198]

Here's my real life example of a lack of professionalism:

I have a 4th year student scheduled to rotate with me starting this week. I emailed him over 2 weeks ago, welcoming him to our practice, and provided a document about the rotation, suggested readings, etc and advised him that since I was out of the country, to contact my office before 4 pm on Friday 11/14 to confirm my schedule for 11/17 and where we would meet Monday morning. I resent the email last week when I hadn't heard from him and my office also stated that had no contact from him.

In preparation for students, I take less patients to allow time to teach, book cases for longer times to allow for student suturing and do not book surgical assistants. I make less money those months but because I enjoy teaching feel it's worth it.

Friday my office gets a FAX from the medical student coordinator that the student will not be doing the rotation with me; because I am out of the country, I don't find out about it until Monday am when I call the office to find out where the student is and they call the med ed office. I explain to them that I am disappointed in the lack of notice and was informed that they too were informed last minute by the student that they had decided to do another rotation (non surgical) during interview season because he felt it would allow for more time off. Apparently he had arranged the rotation with a different department and felt that since it was an approved elective, he didn't need to give anyone notice, including me or the Med Ed dept.

So I am concerned about the students lack of professionalism to not email me back, to not let me know they had changed their mind about the rotation and to let their school know as well. Maybe not a big deal to some and it's not on par with some other accusations of professional misconduct but it's this sort of thing that gets noticed negatively. Since the med Ed office agreed, this student will be talked to by them about professional behavior.

This is an example of a real professionalism problem.

However during pre-clinical years, professionalism basically means you don't do anything the administration doesn't want you to do. IE you don't openly ruffle feathers. Thats a 1 way ticket to punishment, regardless of how good of a student you are. It's funny because they get pissed about stuff like that, yet when people show up late to interviews multiple times ( stuff happens, I understand), no one bats an eye. Same thing for people that literally don't understand how to whisper, so from 50 feet away I can hear them talking and can't hear the panel that is also 50 feet from me with a mic.

It's good to be held accountable for what WS said, but from what I've seen, it gets played by school administrators 10x more than it does by actual physicians who have a true problem with a student.

 

[DermViser]

Here's my real life example of a lack of professionalism:

I have a 4th year student scheduled to rotate with me starting this week. I emailed him over 2 weeks ago, welcoming him to our practice, and provided a document about the rotation, suggested readings, etc and advised him that since I was out of the country, to contact my office before 4 pm on Friday 11/14 to confirm my schedule for 11/17 and where we would meet Monday morning. I resent the email last week when I hadn't heard from him and my office also stated that had no contact from him.

In preparation for students, I take less patients to allow time to teach, book cases for longer times to allow for student suturing and do not book surgical assistants. I make less money those months but because I enjoy teaching feel it's worth it.

Friday my office gets a FAX from the medical student coordinator that the student will not be doing the rotation with me; because I am out of the country, I don't find out about it until Monday am when I call the office to find out where the student is and they call the med ed office. I explain to them that I am disappointed in the lack of notice and was informed that they too were informed last minute by the student that they had decided to do another rotation (non surgical) during interview season because he felt it would allow for more time off. Apparently he had arranged the rotation with a different department and felt that since it was an approved elective, he didn't need to give anyone notice, including me or the Med Ed dept.

So I am concerned about the students lack of professionalism to not email me back, to not let me know they had changed their mind about the rotation and to let their school know as well. Maybe not a big deal to some and it's not on par with some other accusations of professional misconduct but it's this sort of thing that gets noticed negatively. Since the med Ed office agreed, this student will be talked to by them about professional behavior.

This is definitely tame in comparison to what usually students are accused of when it comes to unprofessionalism. Usually most schools have policies that in order to change a rotation, you have to have submitted the form at least 4 weeks in advance of the month. Not to put the onus on you (bc it's not your job at all - esp. in an elective situation), but did anyone from your office phone call him?

 

[DermViser]

I've never been accused of unprofessionalism, but a few examples I've heard:
1) Not replying to emails from faculty/administration in a timely fashion or at all
2) Showing up late to clinical duties, skipping required things
3) Unprofessional attire or grooming for clinical duties
4) Telling patients things you have no business telling them, or otherwise negatively affecting patient care
5) Social media stuff can get you in trouble too if it is related back to the med school or hospital. We're not allowed to post pics from social outings and stuff on our class FB page. I heard someone got in trouble one year for posting a picture taken in our library to "asians sleeping in the library" tumblr.

6) Not filling out course/clerkship evaluations

 

[The new guy]

Here's my real life example of a lack of professionalism:

I have a 4th year student scheduled to rotate with me starting this week. I emailed him over 2 weeks ago, welcoming him to our practice, and provided a document about the rotation, suggested readings, etc and advised him that since I was out of the country, to contact my office before 4 pm on Friday 11/14 to confirm my schedule for 11/17 and where we would meet Monday morning. I resent the email last week when I hadn't heard from him and my office also stated that had no contact from him.

In preparation for students, I take less patients to allow time to teach, book cases for longer times to allow for student suturing and do not book surgical assistants. I make less money those months but because I enjoy teaching feel it's worth it.

Friday my office gets a FAX from the medical student coordinator that the student will not be doing the rotation with me; because I am out of the country, I don't find out about it until Monday am when I call the office to find out where the student is and they call the med ed office. I explain to them that I am disappointed in the lack of notice and was informed that they too were informed last minute by the student that they had decided to do another rotation (non surgical) during interview season because he felt it would allow for more time off. Apparently he had arranged the rotation with a different department and felt that since it was an approved elective, he didn't need to give anyone notice, including me or the Med Ed dept.

So I am concerned about the students lack of professionalism to not email me back, to not let me know they had changed their mind about the rotation and to let their school know as well. Maybe not a big deal to some and it's not on par with some other accusations of professional misconduct but it's this sort of thing that gets noticed negatively. Since the med Ed office agreed, this student will be talked to by them about professional behavior.

This is interesting. I agree that is unprofessional on the student's part. But I also bet he had no idea that you change your own schedule in order to accommodate teaching a student. As a student myself, that would never have occurred to me. I always assume that attendings do their own thing, whether a student is there or not.

 

[Winged Scapula]

This is definitely tame in comparison to what usually students are accused of when it comes to unprofessionalism. Usually most schools have policies that in order to change a rotation, you have to have submitted the form at least 4 weeks in advance of the month. Not to put the onus on you (bc it's not your job at all - esp. in an elective situation), but did anyone from your office phone call him?

No, why would my office call him? I'm doing him the favor not the other way around.

I had his phone number in my office but since I was out of the country, it wasn't available to me or my office staff. I suppose if I was his babysitter I could have instructed my staff to call the med Ed office on Friday to inquire about him, but figured he would simply show up or call Monday.

 

[circulus vitios]

Since starting school, I've noticed the administration really emphasizes avoiding "being unprofessional" but they never give any concrete examples of what that means. What are some ways a med student might act unprofessionally? I mean besides the obvious examples of showing up drunk to class, etc.

Professionalism within the context of pre-clinical medical school is a subjective measure that is (ab)used for the purposes of controlling students. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[PL198]

This is definitely tame in comparison to what usually students are accused of when it comes to unprofessionalism. Usually most schools have policies that in order to change a rotation, you have to have submitted the form at least 4 weeks in advance of the month. Not to put the onus on you (bc it's not your job at all - esp. in an elective situation), but did anyone from your office phone call him?

Isn't WS in PP? I don't really know anything about scheduling rotations but I'd be about 10x more on the ball and double checking stuff if I was doing stuff with a PP doc

 

[DermViser]

Isn't WS in PP? I don't really know anything about scheduling rotations but I'd be about 10x more on the ball and double checking stuff if I was doing stuff with a PP doc

Yes, I realized that as it didn't click at first. I'm sure in school in-house electives, people switch out all the time last minute, but this can vary based on school policy.

 

[Winged Scapula]

This is interesting. I agree that is unprofessional on the student's part. But I also bet he had no idea that you change your own schedule in order to accommodate teaching a student. As a student myself, that would never have occurred to me. I always assume that attendings do their own thing, whether a student is there or not.

Perhaps some attendings do (their own thing) but I feel a responsibility to give adequate time to teach during rotations. That's why I see fewer patients and do fewer cases. In PP that means I make less money; some of my partners will not take students or residents because they do not care to slow down their practice. In a pure academic employed position, the attendings may not care how many patients they see or change their schedule.

The bigger issue is the lack of response on the students part; I can build my schedule back up in a few days so am less concerned about that aspect.

 

[Ismet]

This is interesting. I agree that is unprofessional on the student's part. But I also bet he had no idea that you change your own schedule in order to accommodate teaching a student. As a student myself, that would never have occurred to me. I always assume that attendings do their own thing, whether a student is there or not.

A med student is often a big time (and money, since time=money) burden, especially in PP. Unless you're just being a shadow, which a 3rd or 4th year med student is not, a resident/attending takes extra time to teach (if there wasn't a med student they wouldn't have to take that time and could see more patients) and also allows extra time in clinic or in the OR because a med student moves slower or needs more time to get and present the H&P, rather than just the attending going in and doing everything.

Although I like to think we can be assets too. Especially in the ED when an extra set of eyes and hands can be beneficial to a resident juggling 8 patients.

 

[DermViser]

This is an example of a real professionalism problem.

However during pre-clinical years, professionalism basically means you don't do anything the administration doesn't want you to do. IE you don't openly ruffle feathers. Thats a 1 way ticket to punishment, regardless of how good of a student you are. It's funny because they get pissed about stuff like that, yet when people show up late to interviews multiple times ( stuff happens, I understand), no one bats an eye. Same thing for people that literally don't understand how to whisper, so from 50 feet away I can hear them talking and can't hear the panel that is also 50 feet from me with a mic.

It's good to be held accountable for what WS said, but from what I've seen, it gets played by school administrators 10x more than it does by actual physicians who have a true problem with a student.

Professionalism within the context of pre-clinical medical school is a subjective measure that is (ab)used for the purposes of controlling students. Nothing more, nothing less.

You are correct. There are some medical schools who use professionalism as sort of a weapon against students. It can definitely be used to silence any dissent - i.e. complaints about courses, curriculum, etc. What happens is essentially the definition balloons to where med school admins make anything they don't like and label it as "unprofessional" which then makes the term lose value and can destroy a student's career.

Also, a lot of times the "unprofessionalism" grenade can only be thrown one way: intern/resident/attending ---> student and not vice-versa. It's interesting bc if you look at the video, at UCSF it can go both ways, and a faculty member being unprofessional as a pattern is also dealt with. That being said, it is UCSF (enough said) which has the resources and capabilities to deal with losing faculty who are unprofessional, unlike other institutions.

 

[PL198]

A med student is often a big time (and money, since time=money) burden, especially in PP. Unless you're just being a shadow, which a 3rd or 4th year med student is not, a resident/attending takes extra time to teach (if there wasn't a med student they wouldn't have to take that time and could see more patients) and also allows extra time in clinic or in the OR because a med student moves slower or needs more time to get and present the H&P, rather than just the attending going in and doing everything.

Although I like to think we can be assets too. Especially in the ED when an extra set of eyes and hands can be beneficial to a resident juggling 8 patients.

People in my class don't understand this at all. Today they had a cry session about " WHY CANT WE BE IN THE HOSPITAL 1st and 2nd YEAR?" Well..... 3rd and 4th years slow down stuff enough and the government has to literally pay hospitals to take residents, so if we want docs to be able to see 2 patients a day, allowing m1s in there sounds like a great idea to me.

 

[DermViser]

poppin champagne in class,

What are you even talking about?

 

[DermViser]

I've never been accused of unprofessionalism, but a few examples I've heard:
5) Social media stuff can get you in trouble too if it is related back to the med school or hospital. We're not allowed to post pics from social outings and stuff on our class FB page. I heard someone got in trouble one year for posting a picture taken in our library to "asians sleeping in the library" tumblr.

WTF?!!? But posting medical school parody skits on Youtube is perfectly ok?

 

[Ismet]

People in my class don't understand this at all. Today they had a cry session about " WHY CANT WE BE IN THE HOSPITAL 1st and 2nd YEAR?" Well..... 3rd and 4th years slow down stuff enough and the government has to literally pay hospitals to take residents, so if we want docs to be able to see 2 patients a day, allowing m1s in there sounds like a great idea to me.

We go to the hospital during MS1 and MS2, but these are once weekly sessions with specific faculty who sign up for these teaching sessions and therefore already account for the time burden that afternoon. They basically find us one patient in the hospital who is willing to speak to a med student, we're given 20-30 minutes to do a full H&P, then we present to the attending and submit a written H&P.

 

[DermViser]

People in my class don't understand this at all. Today they had a cry session about " WHY CANT WE BE IN THE HOSPITAL 1st and 2nd YEAR?" Well..... 3rd and 4th years slow down stuff enough and the government has to literally pay hospitals to take residents, so if we want docs to be able to see 2 patients a day, allowing m1s in there sounds like a great idea to me.

Bc MS-3s nd MS-4s are already annoying enough to have on the wards. MS-1s and MS-2s would be unbearable. If you want to shadow, do it on your own time. It's not your med school's job to make it an official part of the curriculum.

 

[Ismet]

WTF?!!? But posting medical school parody skits on Youtube is perfectly ok?

By "social outings" I mean like bars and drinking and stuff. Aka things that you wouldn't want your patients to see should not be posted on social media.

 

[DermViser]

Not blaming you. Just saying it's hypocritical - unless the argument they'll make is they have intellectual property rights and can thus post them online, but it's not ok for you to do the same.

 

[The new guy]

Bc MS-3s nd MS-4s are already annoying enough to have on the wards. MS-1s and MS-2s would be unbearable. If you want to shadow, do it on your own time. It's not your med school's job to make it an official part of the curriculum.

Lol, this is an official part of my schools curriculum. I hope I'm not too unbearable...

 

[DermViser]

By "social outings" I mean like bars and drinking and stuff. Aka things that you wouldn't want your patients to see should not be posted on social media.

You mean to the group Facebook page or your own personal Facebook page?

 

[PL198]

Bc MS-3s nd MS-4s are already annoying enough to have on the wards. MS-1s and MS-2s would be unbearable. If you want to shadow, do it on your own time. It's not your med school's job to make it an official part of the curriculum.

they think standardized patients are below them. I'm like " dude you can't even make a differential for more than 2 things when someone presents as being SOB and you want them to let you have access to real people?"

 

[DermViser]

Lol, this is an official part of my schools curriculum. I hope I'm not too unbearable...

I'm more referring to MS-1s/MS-2s tagging along on required inpatient clerkships. Your intern already has to babysit the MS-3s enough as it is along with doing the **** they have to do.

 

[EMDO2018]

Bc MS-3s nd MS-4s are already annoying enough to have on the wards. MS-1s and MS-2s would be unbearable. If you want to shadow, do it on your own time. It's not your med school's job to make it an official part of the curriculum.

1st and 2nd year are a huge waste of time, paying all that tuition just to relearn crap most of us learned in undergrad.

 

[DermViser]

1st and 2nd year are a huge waste of time, paying all that tuition just to relearn crap most of us learned in undergrad.

You're an MS-1, in your first semester. MS-2 is not a rehash of undergrad.

 

[DermViser]

they think standardized patients are below them. I'm like " dude you can't even make a differential for more than 2 things when someone presents as being SOB and you want them to let you have access to real people?"

You hit on the exact reason why MS-1s/MS-2s aren't allowed on the wards just yet. They are utterly useless in terms of knowledge base and they haven't even finished their physical diagnosis course. A social worker who plns for disposition is more useful than they are.

 

[PL198]

1st and 2nd year are a huge waste of time, paying all that tuition just to relearn crap most of us learned in undergrad.

man if you learned path in undergrad you're a freaking baller. I've never even heard of an undergrad path class

 

[DermViser]

I would love to hear from students who have been accused of unprofessionalism...because I have no idea what it means. I'm starting to wonder if it's just a catch all term for "I don't like you."

It can be if you're on your med school's **** list or are labeled a troublemaker.

 

[Ismet]

You mean to the group Facebook page or your own personal Facebook page?

Group. We also had a lecture in MS1 about posting that stuff to our own personal page. And as far as I know no one from the school checks or anything, but people don't post questionable stuff to the group page in order to avoid any possible honor code problem.

 

[Ismet]

1st and 2nd year are a huge waste of time, paying all that tuition just to relearn crap most of us learned in undergrad.

My eyes got tired of rolling so here are some emoticons:

 

[DermViser]

Group. We also had a lecture in MS1 about posting that stuff to our own personal page. And as far as I know no one from the school checks or anything, but people don't post questionable stuff to the group page in order to avoid any possible honor code problem.

I can't believe your school would actually check your Facebook group page which is usually student run and which people need permission to join to check for photos , esp. when all they have to do is go to another social media site: Instagram, etc.. Of course they usually find out bc a student complains anyways.

 

[DermViser]

My eyes got tired of rolling so here are some emoticons:

Consistent with his comment on how to deal with nurses.

 

[circulus vitios]

Group. We also had a lecture in MS1 about posting that stuff to our own personal page. And as far as I know no one from the school checks or anything, but people don't post questionable stuff to the group page in order to avoid any possible honor code problem.

Wow. I'd be tempted to create a troll FB account just to f with them.

 

[EMDO2018]

I can't believe your school would actually check your Facebook group page which is usually student run and which people need permission to join to check for photos , esp. when all they have to do is go to another social media site: Instagram, etc.. Of course they usually find out bc a student complains anyways.

We kicked all the professors, deans, and admins out of our Facebook group, then we started poppin champagne.

 

[DermViser]

We kicked all the professors, deans, and admins out of our Facebook group, then we started poppin champagne.

Again, what does that even mean?

 

[circulus vitios]

Again, what does that even mean?

 

[Ismet]

I can't believe your school would actually check your Facebook group page which is usually student run and which people need permission to join to check for photos , esp. when all they have to do is go to another social media site: Instagram, etc.. Of course they usually find out bc a student complains anyways.

I didn't say they check, and none ask to join. I think the concern is that a student can report another student, so why not just avoid it by not posting anything questionable on the group page.

 

[DermViser]

I thought he meant this: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Poppin+Champagne

 

[DermViser]

I didn't say they check, and none ask to join. I think the concern is that a student can report another student, so why not just avoid it by not posting anything questionable on the group page.

Yeah, there are always a few douches in the class I'm sure. God forbid people post pictures of themselves having fun at a party.

 

[Ismet]

Yeah, there are always a few douches in the class I'm sure. God forbid people post pictures of themselves having fun at a party.

Meh, it's kinda weird to post that on the group page anyway. You can post whatever you want on your personal page, there are enough privacy settings at this point that as long as your FB cover photo and profile pic aren't you plastered with a 40 in your hand, no one who is not your FB friend will see it.

I don't think anyone in my class would actually report anyone else about something from FB. I dunno...we just had a semester-long class on ethics and professionalism in MS1 and had a 2 hour lecture where all this was covered. I think it just makes us more cautious of what is posted.

 

[EMDO2018]

Meh, it's kinda weird to post that on the group page anyway. You can post whatever you want on your personal page, there are enough privacy settings at this point that as long as your FB cover photo and profile pic aren't you plastered with a 40 in your hand, no one who is not your FB friend will see it.

I don't think anyone in my class would actually report anyone else about something from FB. I dunno...we just had a semester-long class on ethics and professionalism in MS1 and had a 2 hour lecture where all this was covered. I think it just makes us more cautious of what is posted.

aren't you an ms4?

 

[Mad Jack]

We kicked all the professors, deans, and admins out of our Facebook group, then we started poppin champagne.

 

[Ismet]

aren't you an ms4?

MS-3.