Quadriplegic acceptance into medical school: please help!

[45408]

Speaking of condescension...

So clever...

Now might be time for me to check out that new ignore feature.

Does humor elude you?

If you ask a silly question....

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[SoCalGirl]

If you ask a silly question....

I didn't ask a question, I made a statement. Reading comprehension is a great skill. Look into it.

 

[SoCalGirl]

Does humor elude you?

No, it doesn't. You're just not humorous. Give me something I can work with.

 

[bfg9000]

So I've been stalking this forum for several years now, and I've finally been lured out of anonymity by this thread. While I agree with all those saying that surmounting the physical obstacles will be extraordinarily difficult, it's also important to consider what the OP will be bringing to the profession. It's the perspective. And it's unique and very beneficial.

I'm going to be un-PC and say that being disabled makes you different more than just physically. You have an understanding about being a patient, physical shortcomings, the body's limitations, sympathy, compassion, etc. In most professions, this probably doesn't matter as much. But in medicine, it's vital.

Someone in the OP's position has a viewpoint that can only come from experience. Discussing quality of life issues with his patients, pros and cons of treatments, possible options... He's been through it himself, and he asks himself those questions all the time. It's not something that only quads deal with, of course, but I'm hard-pressed to find another group that has that acute, almost-omnipresent sense of the mind-body connection more than the disabled.

The best people in medicine aren't there because they can run an IV or perform CPR in an emergency. Yes, things like a physical exam are huge, and I'm not sure how they'd be dealt with in the OP's situation. But I wouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater. There are thousands of medical students who can suture to perfection. But there are very few with the background and mindset the OP has. If I were a medical school, I'd take the chance and give someone like him the accommodations. Provided of course that he can convince me why he deserves it (like any other applicant has to do).

OP, go for it! I wish you the best of luck. In speaking with the schools, I'd emphasize all the good qualities you'd be bringing to the profession by virtue of having your disability. It's not just about asking for "pity." It's being given accommodations in the short-run (or even the medium-run) and in return giving medicine a unique perspective that may prove valuable with patients in the long-run. The school isn't doing you a "favor" so you can live your dream. They're investing in someone who may be able to benefit society in a way that his peers may not.

 

[MichiganEMTInt]

Walderness:
Unfortunately I can't really contribute to the discussion as far as advice or experience but I have found this thread and your story very interesting. I honestly admire people who pursue their ambitions and your dedication is very inspiring and admirable. It's people like you that make great doctors, the people who will go through anything because of their passion for medicine, and I seriously hope you get what you want someday. Best of luck.

 

[ACSurgeon]

Sorry, but I have to take issue with this statement.. What's the implication here--that people with physical disabilities are somehow less capable of intellectual ability and academic success? As someone who has always been noticably disabled, I've often dealt with the annoying, hurtful assumption that physical disability=cognitive disability/mental ******ation... I don't think that's what you're implying here, but... actually, what ARE you implying?

I think posters are doing well to ask the hard questions here, as I think they have a place. Personally, I've often wondered if I have what it takes to complete the physical requirements of med school/residency and if I would truly be able to be a good attending. Honestly, I don't know. I'd like to think I can, but I won't want to go to med school if I didn't feel I could be a good, competent physician, and it's hard to get a straight answer on that. Like the OP said, they're tough questions because no one will really give you trial run, and while you do want to be realistic, you don't want to needlessly shut perfectly viable doors, either. People tend to be two-faced on this issue, which makes it harder... The only one-faced people seem to be Drs. who have physical disabilities themselves, in my experience.

That was not my implication at all. I do realize that physical and mental abilities are not directly related. However, I asked these questions because adapting to a new disability can be a full time job right there, let alone trying to hit a 36 on your MCAT. Also, can you argue that being mobile doesn't help get things done faster? Med school is a huge time crunch. I didn't mean to offend anyone, and I am still NOT saying that people with physical disabilities are intellectually inferior. What I AM saying is that people with physical disabilities might have a harder time getting through the material or other tasks in a timely manner. I realize that people with life long disabilities can overcome such problems ADAPT in way to become faster at studying than a fully able person. However, those with recent injuries may still be adapting, and previous success isn't as telling to what they can or can't do in the future. I hope this cleared up the confusion.

 

[MichiganEMTInt]

So I've been stalking this forum for several years now, and I've finally been lured out of anonymity by this thread. While I agree with all those saying that surmounting the physical obstacles will be extraordinarily difficult, it's also important to consider what the OP will be bringing to the profession. It's the perspective. And it's unique and very beneficial.

I'm going to be un-PC and say that being disabled makes you different more than just physically. You have an understanding about being a patient, physical shortcomings, the body's limitations, sympathy, compassion, etc. In most professions, this probably doesn't matter as much. But in medicine, it's vital.

Someone in the OP's position has a viewpoint that can only come from experience. Discussing quality of life issues with his patients, pros and cons of treatments, possible options... He's been through it himself, and he asks himself those questions all the time. It's not something that only quads deal with, of course, but I'm hard-pressed to find another group that has that acute, almost-omnipresent sense of the mind-body connection more than the disabled.

The best people in medicine aren't there because they can run an IV or perform CPR in an emergency. Yes, things like a physical exam are huge, and I'm not sure how they'd be dealt with in the OP's situation. But I wouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater. There are thousands of medical students who can suture to perfection. But there are very few with the background and mindset the OP has. If I were a medical school, I'd take the chance and give someone like him the accommodations. Provided of course that he can convince me why he deserves it (like any other applicant has to do).

OP, go for it! I wish you the best of luck. In speaking with the schools, I'd emphasize all the good qualities you'd be bringing to the profession by virtue of having your disability. It's not just about asking for "pity." It's being given accommodations in the short-run (or even the medium-run) and in return giving medicine a unique perspective that may prove valuable with patients in the long-run. The school isn't doing you a "favor" so you can live your dream. They're investing in someone who may be able to benefit society in a way that his peers may not.

Absolutely true.

 

[elwademd]

It's up to medical educators and schools to determine what defines a physician and whether a quadriplegic doctor is beneficial or harmful to society not us SDNers (although it is fun to debate). It's the OPs decision whether he/she wants to invest their time and money in something that may be difficult for them to obtain.

I'd say being able to do H&Ps is vital to every doctors existence but the value of procedures is highly variable. Is a pathologist harmful to their patients because they're not the best at delivering babies? Is an immunologist with poor suture skills a detriment to society? Is a psychologist worse off if they can't preform a proper cricothyrotomy? You're saying that these skills define the essence of a physician and I'd say they are secondary to a physicians ability to properly diagnosis and create treatment plans for their patients. The big question, I think is how is the OP going to be able to preform a physical without help? Since there are doctors out there who practice with similar disabilities...it's apparently a surmountable obstacle.

I am surprised by how important and critical everyone makes medical school to be. If you don't put in a chest tube or even an IV during medical school, the world will keep turning. Sure, there is some element of "work" during clinical rotations, but completing school is not some grand achievement like the commencement speeches make it out to be.

Maybe some places are hugely understaffed by students and residents and they actually "need" you to put in that chest tube, but I doubt it. In my experience the "workload" is just an illusion. I have never seen a code where the transitional resident going into PM&R is the only person there and has to "save the patient's life." There are plenty of residents around (surgery, ER, Anes, etc.) who actually need to learn vital procedures for their career.

I believe 100% that a person with disabilities like this could do an excellent physical exam, but I'm sorry for even commenting. As has been said numerous times, the OP is not interested in critique of his plan just advice on where to apply.

So there are essentially two different debates going on here. I know it's pointless to try to clarify... do you or do you not need to do a physical examination in order to complete medical school?


Do you or do you not have to master and demonstrate proficiency in clinical skills in order to graduate from medical school?

Can a quadraplegic perform a physical examination?

Can a quadraplegic perform clinical skills?

I'm seriously asking, I have no idea.

Is the student providing an assistant to help with tasks that he cannot perform?

Can one bypass the physically demanding elements of medical school to specialize in a specific field?

It just seems like L2 and the resident are bringing up arguments about medical school and residency and the other posters are countering with arguments about practicing physicians in specific specialties.
I don't see those as comparable.

usmle step 2cs. the "powers that be" feel that it's important, so much so that it's a requirement in order to become a licensed physician. some medical schools require it in order to even graduate, whereas others do not.

so, passing medical school classes can be done, but if you can't pass this exam (step 2cs), where does this leave you? it's one thing to be a unlicensed physician (by virtue of obtaining an md or do) awaiting to obtain licensure, it's another to be an unlicensed physician without prospects of obtaining a license, as that means not practicing. from the way the thread was started, it would seem that the op wants to be a practicing physician. so, getting answers in regards to step 2cs now is absolutely a huge deal.

are accomodations made for step 2cs? if so, what are they? how far do the accomodations go?

again, it's these sort of questions that need to be asked by the op to the appropriate people.

sh**, JACO in the ED all day and I'm too tired to really contribute.

jcaho, not jaco.

 

[decafplease]

I guess it's helpful when you're an intern and the hospital dumps the scut work on you, but my point is that when you're an attending you won't be doing most of these hands-on things pre-meds dream about but are done by nurses in real life. Who would have an easier time starting an IV? The nurse whose been doing it daily for 5 yrs of the physician who hasn't started one since they were a resident 5 yrs ago? My PCP barely knows how to give a shot because his nurses always do it for him. In the two years I spent working in the ED, I never saw a physician do compressions or start lines on a coding patient because that was the nurses/paramedics job.

My point is that from the point of being a source of slave labor for the hospital, they're essential skills, but from the point of view of a physicians they're activities not essential because they are rarely encountered.

Off the subject but... seriously? In the year I've been in a Level 1 trauma center, I've seen the docs start lines on a crashing patient, jump on the table and do compressions and trim off clothing. Did your ED docs seriously just stand there and let the paramedics trim off the clothes and start the line before they stepped in? I think most of the ED docs found that the less cooks in the kitchen, the better. That and they knew they were fast and good at it.

 

[45408]

I didn't ask a question, I made a statement. Reading comprehension is a great skill. Look into it.

edit - n/m

 

[AmoryBlaine]

The OP stated that he's been doing research on this matter so I'm sure he's already getting a critique of his plan. My comment was geared towards those who are acting like they are the ultimate authority on this subject when they clearly are not.

And none of us are actually claiming to be.

Prowler, L2D, TinMan and I have nothing personally invested in whether or not the OP gets into/completes medical school. I would actually be inspired by a colleague with such severe disabilities who could discharge his duties well. We are just trying to point out 3 simple facts.

1. Medical education is what it is and as it currently stands it demands physical activity that the OP will be unable to perform. If a school decides to waive all of those physical activities then I question whether the final product of that education is truly a physician.

2. The point that some specialists do not often manual dexterity does not mean that you can jump to that directly from your second year of medical school. Everyone is supposed to deliver a baby, start and IV, learn how to sew, hold retractors, scrub, learn sterile technique etc etc.

3. There is a huge difference between someone who has a disability and someone who is tetra/quadraplegic in terms of their ability to discharge their medical duties. The OP has told us several times that he does not have the use of his hands. The optomistic SDN pre-med crowd can say whatever they want but those us who have been through/are in the wringer know the color of reality.

 

[GreenShirt]

Off the subject but... seriously? In the year I've been in a Level 1 trauma center, I've seen the docs start lines on a crashing patient, jump on the table and do compressions and trim off clothing. Did your ED docs seriously just stand there and let the paramedics trim off the clothes and start the line before they stepped in? I think most of the ED docs found that the less cooks in the kitchen, the better. That and they knew they were fast and good at it.

Yeah, at the place where I worked and the places I rotated through as an EMT, the physician would be casually propped up against the wall as far away from the action as possible calling out the appropriate drugs to push (which the nurses sometimes new better since they learn ACLS too). It was surprising to me because I always had the image of the physician throwing themselves on the patient cutting off clothes, doing compressions, shouting out orders that you see on TV. None of the places were a level I trauma center though, maybe it's a different ball game.

In general the ER docs I worked with spent about 80% of their time on their butts at the nurses station typing reports, ordering tests, waiting for consulting physicians to call, etc. It was more cerebral (or more paper work oriented) than procedural. I thought ER medicine would be a good career choice because I didn't want a desk job, but it was very much a desk job.

I know I digress from the OP question, but I'm just trying to point out that a doctor's job isn't as procedural as premeds think, it really is more of a filling out paperwork job in many ways. In the end, if there are qaud. docs out there who are allowed to keep their licenses, then it should be possible (although extremely difficult) for the OP.

 

[Ludicolo]

Hello

Rehab Medicine Attending here.

I normally stay out of pre-allo, but this thread hits home for obvious reasons. First – this has been an excellent (and for the most part, civil) discussion. All sides have valid points. There are numerous MD/DO's out there with a wide variety of disabilities practicing medicine in some capacity. Within PM&R (as well as other specialties) there are board certified, practicing physicians with spinal cord injuries, CP, upper limb amputations, neuromuscular disorders, etc., with varying degrees of impaired hand function. They all completed med school, internship and residency so these are not insurmountable obstacles. But they are very real.

To clarify on function: sounds like the OP is a C7 ASIA A tetraplegic. Has preserved shoulder, elbow and wrist function. Through tenodesis, he/she should be able to generate a pincer grip, which could be enhanced with a tenodesis splint. Will this be sufficient to wield a needle, reflex hammer, catheter? Do a standard physical examination? With practice and depending on the individual – yes. The individual’s technique may be different than their colleagues, but there’s more than one way to hurt a patient . These are learned skills, and both the able bodied and the disabled resident will have to learn them – in their own manner. Law2Doc and friends do bring up some valid, practical observations about possible barriers that the OP and his/her allies should not address with emotion. I don’t think they are discouraging the OP – in fact I think that all of us are deep down rooting for him/her. We like inspirational stories in rehab!

My advice to the OP (and I know this has nothing to do with your original question) – try as best as you can to overcome these barriers yourself. Through your own experience with rehab you have become skilled at problem solving and adapting. Find a mentor early – and use them to find resources to help you. You are already ahead of the game, getting in touch with people like Dr. DeLisa. As someone previously stated (tritely), “where there’s a will there’s a way”. It is WAY easier for you to adapt than to expect everyone else to adapt to you. Still, there are some not unreasonable accommodations that could be met – like using the elevator for “walking rounds”. But you will (and probably already have) learn that what is reasonable for some is not reasonable for others. Try to anticipate and identify potential problems, and address them sooner, rather than later.

Sorry for intruding. Carry on.

jcaho, not jaco.

BTW – it’s now “the Joint Commission”, not JCAHO. But a PITA by any other name...

 

[SirGecko]

It is WAY easier for you to adapt than to expect everyone else to adapt to you.

See, and I think that is the main idea behind the points made by Law2Doc and the others. There is no reason why the OP cannot be a doctor, as long as he can find ways to adapt to the curriculum. It is just unreasonable to expect the curriculum to be drastically changed for one person. (not that accommodation cannot be made, just on small stuff like using an elevator instead of stairs; the op will just need to learn how to do some things differently)

 

[tncekm]

I've heard what you guys are saying many times before, trust me.

What gets to me is that when I ask for advice on what med schools will make accommodations, I get in return a million reasons why they shouldn't accept quadriplegics. This was not the intent of my question.

Yeah, that seems a bit ridiculous to me. I can see the need for someone to throw it out there once that many schools won't be able to accommodate you, but after that its kind of like beating a dead horse.

I'm sorry I can't help, but I think you may just have to spend an entire summer working your ass off calling various schools, and just going through with the application process as planned.

IMHO there will be some school that would be absolutely THRILLED to have you there and that will also have the means to accommodate you.

 

[Law2Doc]

See, and I think that is the main idea behind the points made by Law2Doc and the others. There is no reason why the OP cannot be a doctor, as long as he can find ways to adapt to the curriculum. It is just unreasonable to expect the curriculum to be drastically changed for one person. (not that accommodation cannot be made, just on small stuff like using an elevator instead of stairs; the op will just need to learn how to do some things differently)

Yeah, if the OP can actually find a way to do the things expected of a med student during the clinical years, I don't think anyone has any issues. It's when folks absolutely cannot physically do the things required of a med student that you have to throw out the "where there's a will there's a way" feel good message and look at reality.

I think this is a useful thread not just as it relates to the OPs personal issues, but also it seems like a lot of premeds on here have absolutely no notion of what the clinical years will entail. Medicine is not 90% cerebral. And the clinical years are in many ways more about doing than thinking. It ceases to be about lecture based learning after the second year and becomes more of an apprenticeship -- you will be learning a trade from folks more senior than you. Not just hearing about it. Actually participating.

 

[tncekm]

I love reading L2D's posts ...

This one encapsulates better than any that I have (or could) the issue. Someone with such a large disability who wants to become a physician is not just looking for appropriate accomadation -- they are asking a medical school to redefine its training program to suit one person. Someone with such a large disability who wishes to enter a particular speciality is not just asking for accomadation -- they are asking a residency program to create a custom spot just for them.

100% true. However, given the fact that the OP says he's worked with quad physicians before, I think its very reasonable to assume that there will be a program somewhere that won't just be willing to make these adjustments, but may actually want to make these adjustments so that they can graduate someone just like him.

 

[Noeljan]

Perhaps I'm misreading you or wasn't clear (both highly possible)... The issue with the physical requirements is my main stumbling block when thinking about med school... I believe (perhaps naively or incorrectly) that I could fulfill the academic side of a medical education welll (and you have already proven that you can ), so the question for me lies in "can I do this, physically?" and if so, I would pursue the academics.



Oh, you will, sadly. You'll run across people who will support you to your face and knock you behind your back and people who will just flat insult you to your face. You'll face this and things like this a billion times, especially if you decide to pursue medicine.

For example, last semester I applied for a fairly non-physical job, a TA for an intro class. I had a great app (per my interviewer's comment), great interview (again, per his comment), previous TA experience, and a "glowing" (again, according to my interviewer) rec from the prrof who I TA'ed for. After my interview with him, I got an email from the professor doing the hiring/interviewing, saying that I was an outstanding candidate but that he really didn't want to hire a TA with a disability because he doubted my ability to collect papers, lecture, etc, and worried I would be a "burden" on my professor despite my previous sucessful experience. He said that had it not been for my disability, he would have hired me in a second. I wrote him back and addressed his concerns point by point and held my breath. In the end, I got the position, but it took a lot of extra fight, and medicine will take even more so. Being physically disabled isn't all bad, but it makes everything harder--it takes a lot of fight, and especially something like medicine--I wonder if I have that degree of fight in me, myself.

hey biogirl
I just want to commend you. You seem like a very strong person in what can be a very tough cruel world sometimes. keep pushing on!!

 

[Law2Doc]

I guess it's helpful when you're an intern and the hospital dumps the scut work on you, but my point is that when you're an attending you won't be doing most of these hands-on things pre-meds dream about but are done by nurses in real life. Who would have an easier time starting an IV? The nurse whose been doing it daily for 5 yrs of the physician who hasn't started one since they were a resident 5 yrs ago? My PCP barely knows how to give a shot because his nurses always do it for him. In the two years I spent working in the ED, I never saw a physician do compressions or start lines on a coding patient because that was the nurses/paramedics job.

My point is that from the point of being a source of slave labor for the hospital, they're essential skills, but from the point of view of a physicians they're activities not essential because they are rarely encountered.

Most clinicians I have met agree that the internship/residency year(s) you are "slave labor for the hospital" are the years where you actually learn how to be a "doctor". You don't get to vault over this like it's insignificant. It isn't. It is probably the most important part of your training.

 

[walderness]

I'm going to proceed with an unseemly pulling-of-rank here. The fact that you as a pre-med student think that you have a better grasp than I do of what exactly a complete physical exam entails is just laughable. You are a college student who has seen focused parts of it done by mentors. I have learned it head to toe and performed it hundred of times.

You also suggest (again laughably) that despite graduating from a well-respected medical school I have no idea about the nature of spinal cord injury. This does not even deserve further comment.

You shouldn't be worried that they allowed me to graduate, because despite disagreeing with you on an anonymous internet forum I am not a terrible person or clinician.

You said its impossible for someone with 1 arm to perform a physical exam. Unless its a hemisection injury, which are exceedingly rare, most cases of sci are not that assymetrical. Someone that knows about sci should also know that...i'm not an amputee. And besides, I made the clarification of my functional level previously.

I was appalled that you came out SO strongly about something when you did not have the facts straight. And then you come back with this!

Youre angry, thats very apparent. So are others on here. Since I will have plenty of time to discuss requirements,etc with faculty and residencies, I would like to shift the focus of this thread to something you guys know more about:

Why does this issue spark such outrage, passion, and recoil amongst medical students?

 

[AmoryBlaine]

Yeah, if the OP can actually find a way to do the things expected of a med student during the clinical years, I don't think anyone has any issues. It's when folks absolutely cannot physically do the things required of a med student that you have to throw out the "where there's a will there's a way" feel good message and look at reality.

I think this is a useful thread not just as it relates to the OPs personal issues, but also it seems like a lot of premeds on here have absolutely no notion of what the clinical years will entail. Medicine is not 90% cerebral. And the clinical years are in many ways more about doing than thinking. It ceases to be about lecture based learning after the second year and becomes more of an apprenticeship -- you will be learning a trade from folks more senior than you. Not just hearing about it. Actually participating.

A good point but I think the biggest issue here is not that "medicine is not that physical" but that you don't get to be a doctor just by wanting it really badly.

 

[Law2Doc]

A good point but I think the biggest issue here is not that "medicine is not that physical" but that you don't get to be a doctor just by wanting it really badly.

Sure. It's like the 50% of all applicants who won't get into med school this year. I suspect they all wanted it pretty badly. But they won't get to become a doctor (at least not through this cycle). It isn't about want or passion. It's about convincing med schools that you would be a good fit for their incoming class.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

You said its impossible for someone with 1 arm to perform a physical exam. Unless its a hemisection injury, which are exceedingly rare, most cases of sci are not that assymetrical. Someone that knows about sci should also know that...i'm not an amputee. And besides, I made the clarification of my functional level previously.

I was appalled that you came out SO strongly about something when you did not have the facts straight. And then you come back with this!

Youre angry, thats very apparent. So are others on here. Since I will have plenty of time to discuss requirements,etc with faculty and residencies, I would like to shift the focus of this thread to something you guys know more about:

Why does this issue spark such outrage, passion, and recoil amongst medical students?

1. A laughable misrepresentation of my statement. Let me use my copy/paste skills to replicate out interchange. Italics are mine.

walderness: " ... i talked to a c7 doc 2 days ago, he started the site disaboom.com. amazing guy. he said he conducts a better physical exam than most other docs in his med group ..."

AmoryBlaine: "Impossible. Wait until you learn the actual steps of the physical exam and then tell me if someone with only one arm could be a master of it. I'm not saying your mentor/friend isn't competant, but that's a pretty bold and entirely subjective statement to make about his colleagues."

Please expalin to me if you can where I said that a person with one arm could not perform a physical exam. You tried to make the fatuous argument that a severely disabled physician was the superior of his group at performing physical exams and I disagreed with that argument.

2. I would argue that my "anger" about this topic is not apparent in any of my posts -- this is large due to its nonexistence. If you came to SDN expecting no discussion/debate then you should have lurked a little bit longer before you posted.

Just because people raise and then support some of the SERIOUS arguments against your case dose not mean they are outraged by it. Like I said before man, if you can pull this off than bully for you. It affects me so slightly in the real world so as not even to register.

 

[tncekm]

Sure. It's like the 50% of all applicants who won't get into med school this year. I suspect they all wanted it pretty badly. But they won't get to become a doctor (at least not through this cycle). It isn't about want or passion. It's about convincing med schools that you would be a good fit for their incoming class.

Yeah, and add to that the huge number that won't apply b/c their MCAT scores were so bad. I'm pretty sure the number of people taking the MCAT is between 70-80k/yr now

 

[walderness]

1. A laughable misrepresentation of my statement. Let me use my copy/paste skills to replicate out interchange. Italics are mine.

walderness: " ... i talked to a c7 doc 2 days ago, he started the site disaboom.com. amazing guy. he said he conducts a better physical exam than most other docs in his med group ..."

AmoryBlaine: "Impossible. Wait until you learn the actual steps of the physical exam and then tell me if someone with only one arm could be a master of it. I'm not saying your mentor/friend isn't competant, but that's a pretty bold and entirely subjective statement to make about his colleagues."

Please expalin to me if you can where I said that a person with one arm could not perform a physical exam. You tried to make the fatuous argument that a severely disabled physician was the superior of his group at performing physical exams and I disagreed with that argument.

2. I would argue that my "anger" about this topic is not apparent in any of my posts -- this is large due to its nonexistence. If you came to SDN expecting no discussion/debate then you should have lurked a little bit longer before you posted.

Just because people raise and then support some of the SERIOUS arguments against your case dose not mean they are outraged by it. Like I said before man, if you can pull this off than bully for you. It affects me so slightly in the real world so as not even to register.

There are some dots here that are not connecting in your head. I was not addressing a nuanced point of impossibility of exam v. quality of exam, my concern is that you think the doc with a c7 injury = 1 arm. You are consequently not analyzing the situation with all the correct facts.

I have full arm movement, a good pinch, some finger movement...probably could suture well but I would hesitate getting near a patient.

Its statements like these:

I would argue that my "anger" about this topic is not apparent in any of my posts -- this is large due to its nonexistence.

I mean theyre dripping with contempt. Honestly, no offense, but I dont get you. I'm confused.

 

[BoredMD]

Its statements like these:

I would argue that my "anger" about this topic is not apparent in any of my posts -- this is large due to its nonexistence.

I mean theyre dripping with contempt. Honestly, no offense, but I dont get you. I'm confused.

I agree with you about this. It's fine to bring up points as the others have, but AmoryBlaine, you come across as insensitive, angry and arrogant. Calm down, dude. Whether that's your intent or not, that's how you're coming off to others.

Btw, walderness, there's a thread going on in PM&R that you might want to check out.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=530681

 

[Law2Doc]

I mean theyre dripping with contempt. Honestly, no offense, but I dont get you. I'm confused.

You might want to ease up on the martyr complex. I think you are reading a lot of contempt, passion etc into his posts (and perhaps mine) where none exist. This is a discussion board. You raised an interesting topic to discuss. It's personal to you, but for the rest of us, your own situation is just a stepping off point for the discussion. We all wish you well in your endeavor, but offer up our own experience as to probable hurdles you are going to hit.

And offer up some counter-arguments to the cheerleaders on this board.

 

[walderness]

Btw, walderness, there's a thread going on in PM&R that you might want to check out.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=530681

thanks! great thread.

 

[BoredMD]

thanks! great thread.

No prob! People there seem much more knowledgeable about this matter so you should be able to get a better assessment of your situation.

 

[ACSurgeon]

Walderness:
Unfortunately I can't really contribute to the discussion as far as advice or experience but I have found this thread and your story very interesting. I honestly admire people who pursue their ambitions and your dedication is very inspiring and admirable. It's people like you that make great doctors, the people who will go through anything because of their passion for medicine, and I seriously hope you get what you want someday. Best of luck.

And you know that based on...?

 

[cbrons]

Sorry if I'm beating this to death, but I just wanted to add something.

I'm a Berkeley graduate, 3.77 GPA, 36Q MCAT, worked my butt off to get all applications in for the 2007 season. Then I woke up from a coma as a quadriplegic. I believe I will still make a very valuable Dr. even if I have to force people to make accommodations for me. I'll have the med school bend their rules, I'll have my residency bend the rules, I'll have the physiatry board bend the rules. Having a doctor advise you when you have the same injury is valuable.

If you woke up tomorrow as a quadriplegic, and really put yourself there, don't compartmentalize it, how would you react?

Sorry, just a little passionate about this issue.

Well I don't know how medical school or residency is.. this i admit... but I for one really hope you get in. Other patients with similar disabilities (especially if they are newly acquired) will likely be very uplifted by the simple fact that their doctor, the one caring for them in their time of need, suffers from the same ailment and is still able to carry on with life and pursue his dreams.

 

[ACSurgeon]

A good point but I think the biggest issue here is not that "medicine is not that physical" but that you don't get to be a doctor just by wanting it really badly.

That's what it comes down to... too many people think that just because you really want to, everybody should just cheer, despite the facts.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

There are some dots here that are not connecting in your head. I was not addressing a nuanced point of impossibility of exam v. quality of exam, my concern is that you think the doc with a c7 injury = 1 arm. You are consequently not analyzing the situation with all the correct facts.

I have full arm movement, a good pinch, some finger movement...probably could suture well but I would hesitate getting near a patient.

Its statements like these:

I would argue that my "anger" about this topic is not apparent in any of my posts -- this is large due to its nonexistence.

I mean theyre dripping with contempt. Honestly, no offense, but I dont get you. I'm confused.

1. Ok you are correct on one thing. Earlier you had said you had only recovered the functionality of your right tricep. This led me to the incorrect view that you could only use one arm.

This led me to assume the physician you were talking about also had the use of only one arm. I went back and reviewed the thread and realized that I did make a mistake back their in characterizing your friend's disability.

I maintain, however, that if people without the use of their hands (or with minimal use of them) claim to be superior to their non-disabled colleagues in performing a good PE than I will doubt it.

 

[Haemulon]

Edit: I erased my original post. It was just wondering about specifically what kind of accomodations would be needed to get through day to day med school activities, cause I thought of a number that seem problematic. But since I have no direct info to answer the thread's original question, I'd probably better to steer clear. Best of luck everyone.

 

[Law2Doc]

Well I don't know how medical school or residency is.. this i admit...

I actually think this is an important area for future discussion on this board. This thread has made it patently obvious that lots on here don't know what is in store for them. Probably important for folks on here to know before telling others what is realistically going to be expected of them. But even more important for the folks to know for themselves.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

There are some dots here that are not connecting in your head. I was not addressing a nuanced point of impossibility of exam v. quality of exam, my concern is that you think the doc with a c7 injury = 1 arm. You are consequently not analyzing the situation with all the correct facts.

I have full arm movement, a good pinch, some finger movement...probably could suture well but I would hesitate getting near a patient.
Its statements like these:

I would argue that my "anger" about this topic is not apparent in any of my posts -- this is large due to its nonexistence.

I mean theyre dripping with contempt. Honestly, no offense, but I dont get you. I'm confused.

1. "I am a perfect candidate except the fact that I am a quadriplegic "
2. "I am a C7 quadriplegic, meaning I only have missing hand function but full arm function."
3. "The only return I have gotten is my right tricep, bumping me from a C6 to a C7."
4. "I have the full use of my arms."
5. "everyone realizes that i'm a para but have minimal hand function, right? i can pick things up with tenodesis, etc so my hands are good for most everyday things. still is a big deficit for medicine"
6. "I can write in charts (after much practice) and use stickers--my hands are pretty nimble for most tasks, just not when a patient's well-being is in question."
7. "I have full arm movement, a good pinch, some finger movement...probably could suture well but I would hesitate getting near a patient."

|
|
V

"I only have missing hand function."
"everyone realizes have minimal hand function."
"my hands are good for most everyday things."
"my hands are pretty numble for most tasks."
"I have some finger movement ... probably could suture well."


I am also confused.

 

[walderness]

1. "I am a perfect candidate except the fact that I am a quadriplegic "
2. "I am a C7 quadriplegic, meaning I only have missing hand function but full arm function."
3. "The only return I have gotten is my right tricep, bumping me from a C6 to a C7."
4. "I have the full use of my arms."
5. "everyone realizes that i'm a para but have minimal hand function, right? i can pick things up with tenodesis, etc so my hands are good for most everyday things. still is a big deficit for medicine"
6. "I can write in charts (after much practice) and use stickers--my hands are pretty nimble for most tasks, just not when a patient's well-being is in question."
7. "I have full arm movement, a good pinch, some finger movement...probably could suture well but I would hesitate getting near a patient."

|
|
V

"I only have missing hand function."
"everyone realizes have minimal hand function."
"my hands are good for most everyday things."
"my hands are pretty numble for most tasks."
"I have some finger movement ... probably could suture well."


I am also confused.

The fact I had to repeat myself that many times and you still thought i had 1 arm is astounding...

I refuse to engage your ignorance. See the post from the pm&r attending.

 

[Dazedinvt]

jcaho, not jaco.

told you I was tired

 

[Tin Man]

I have full arm movement, a good pinch, some finger movement...probably could suture well but I would hesitate getting near a patient.

Oops.

Wrong thing to say.

If your disabilities leave you doubting your ability to perform basic medical tasks on patients, then it's time to rethink your job aspirations.

And, complete offense intended, I think that your disabilities aren't going to be the only thing that keeps you out of medical school if you talk to anyone who give you criticism (especially people who are, you know, IN medical school) like they're idiots and have no idea what they're talking about.

You seem to have this idea that if YOU believe it's true, then it is true. If YOU believe that you can make it past medical school, despite what the medical students are actually guessing, then you can. If YOU believe that we're idiots for disagreeing with you, then it must be true.

Dude... you can't make up reality... it's a common defense mechanism (psychology training coming out), but you need to learn to face what you are and are not capable of doing. I'm (again) not saying that you shouldn't give it a go if you think you can overcome these obstacles, but I can guarentee you that if you refuse to acknowledge that there are any obstacles in between you and medical school except "ignorant" people like me, Amory, and Law2Doc, you're going to be in for a world of disappointment.

And before you start, let me go ahead and make your next post for you:

"you're condescending... have no idea what an sci is... so angry... what did i ever do to you... am not looking for anyone to talk except those who agree with me... you're ignorant... pity me..."

Okay. So skip that part and move on to the part where you admit that there might be some truth in what we're telling you.

 

[walderness]

Oops.

Wrong thing to say.

If your disabilities leave you doubting your ability to perform basic medical tasks on patients, then it's time to rethink your job aspirations.

Again, see the pm&r attending post. He/she has the most complete perspective.

And, complete offense intended, I think that your disabilities aren't going to be the only thing that keeps you out of medical school if you talk to anyone who give you criticism (especially people who are, you know, IN medical school) like they're idiots and have no idea what they're talking about.

When L2D started giving me critique, I responded as follows:

Its helpful to hear the nuances like this to bring them up to the disabled drs. who have done it. and also, for instance, the usmle requirements from the other poster. these are things you wouldnt necessarily think of unless youve been thru it. so anything else you can think of would be great and i'll list them out and ask...i'm gonna start putting together a list "causes of concern"...would be a good analysis tool i think.

I NEVER brought up ignorance in reference to med school requirements and suggestions. I did bring up ignorance when people started trying to tell me what my disability means and how it will limit me. In the last post, Amory was trying to insinuate that I was inconsistent about what hand function I had. It was clear from earlier posts that you learn to compensate...whereas i couldnt pick up a fork in the beginning, I now use tenodesis to easily grab it.

You guys may be med school experts but im the expert on my disability. To crudely analyze how my disability will limit me in ABSOLUTE terms is obnoxious. A constructive way to do so is to provide required tasks that may be of issue and allow me to walk through alternatives if possible.

You really have no idea what capabilities I have, and, to be honest, neither do I to the full extent. I never thought I'd be able to sterile cath myself in the beginning but now its easy. The pm&r post emphasized this point.

You seem to have this idea that if YOU believe it's true, then it is true. If YOU believe that you can make it past medical school, despite what the medical students are actually guessing, then you can. If YOU believe that we're idiots for disagreeing with you, then it must be true.

Not idiots for disagreeing, I've gained valuable knowledge from constructive disagreements, but idiots for assuming you know better than all the successful but disabled doctors out there. Drs. who sacrificed a lot to get where they are and are getting debased by the likes of med school students and residents.

And before you start, let me go ahead and make your next post for you:

"you're condescending... have no idea what an sci is... so angry... what did i ever do to you... am not looking for anyone to talk except those who agree with me... you're ignorant... pity me..."

show me where ive ever illustrated those sentiments. yes, theres an emotional component to this but Ive never fell back to that argument.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

The fact I had to repeat myself that many times and you still thought i had 1 arm is astounding...

I refuse to engage your ignorance. See the post from the pm&r attending.

1. I never, never, never suggested that you had one arm. I misread one statement on your recovery of triceps function to mean that was all you had recovered. Any objective person can read my posts on this thread and see that you are just making up this accusation. Instead of just making groundless accusations why don't you quote a sentence from one of my posts to back up this nonsense?

2. Why do you reply to a series of direct, copied & pasted quotes from threads you posted by saying that you refuse to engage MY ingnorance. I went back, read my posts, and realized I had misread on of your statements. It wasn't really ignorance but confusion brought on by your inconsistency as to the level of your disability. In one post you have no use of your hands, in another you are pretty sure you could suture. In one thread you have minimal use of your hands, in another you can write in charts and use stickers.


I'm not pulling this stuff out of thin air man, go back and read your posts. Pardon me (and us) if we are having a bit of a hard time understanding your exact situation here. When you refuse to acknowledge and explain inconsistencies in your statements you don't strengthen your case. You can respond to this by saying I'm angry, contemptuous, and ignorant -- but that does not erase your inconsistencies. Doing so only makes them seem more glaring.

 

[45408]

You said its impossible for someone with 1 arm to perform a physical exam. Unless its a hemisection injury, which are exceedingly rare, most cases of sci are not that assymetrical. Someone that knows about sci should also know that...i'm not an amputee. And besides, I made the clarification of my functional level previously.

I was appalled that you came out SO strongly about something when you did not have the facts straight. And then you come back with this!

Youre angry, thats very apparent. So are others on here. Since I will have plenty of time to discuss requirements,etc with faculty and residencies, I would like to shift the focus of this thread to something you guys know more about:

Why does this issue spark such outrage, passion, and recoil amongst medical students?

Let's be clear here - you're certainly not concealing your obvious anger here either.

 

[walderness]

Your air of condescension is not going to help you. No one here has told you not to apply, so go ahead and do so. We're not holding you back.

my condescension was only regarding his assumption that sci means you lose an arm. Hemisection injuries are rare. its concerning when somebody thinks a spinal cord injury is akin to an amputation. If he is critiquing my abilities, I only want to make sure he or she has the facts straight first. especially when its done in such a condescending fashion.

 

[45408]

show me where ive ever illustrated those sentiments. yes, theres an emotional component to this but Ive never fell back to that argument.

Right here:

The fact I had to repeat myself that many times and you still thought i had 1 arm is astounding...

I refuse to engage your ignorance. See the post from the pm&r attending.

"I refuse to engage your ignorance"? Are you serious?

 

[AmoryBlaine]

I NEVER brought up ignorance in reference to med school requirements and suggestions. I did bring up ignorance when people started trying to tell me what my disability means and how it will limit me. In the last post, Amory was trying to insinuate that I was inconsistent about what hand function I had. It was clear from earlier posts that you learn to compensate...whereas i couldnt pick up a fork in the beginning, I now use tenodesis to easily grab it
.

1. No, I wasn't insinuating that, I was stating it loudly and clearly. Unless you mean that I "insinuated" this point by providing 7 direct quotes from your post. I actually added nothing to the post in question except italics and a fancy little arrow.

2. No, that was not at all clear. But I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not trying to suggest that your inconsistent statements are the result of compensation that you have learned over the last few weeks.

 

[walderness]

Right here:


"I refuse to engage your ignorance"? Are you serious?

Ignorance regarding a disability you have no knowledge of.

You guys arent worth this to tell you the truth. Its just giving me a headache and i'm embarassed that i let you drag me into this nonsense. Were not accomplishing anything. peace.

 

[Tin Man]

Ignorance regarding a disability you have no knowledge of.

You guys arent worth this to tell you the truth. Its just giving me a headache and i'm embarassed that i let you drag me into this nonsense. Were not accomplishing anything. peace.

It's a basic defense mechanism. Argue what you can, justify what you can't, and ignore anything that beats your argument. It really does demonstrate the passion for getting into medical school, but unfortunately, it also demonstrates that, if you have to rely on such bogus logic, you know how slim your chances are.

Best of luck.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

Ignorance regarding a disability you have no knowledge of.

You guys arent worth this to tell you the truth. Its just giving me a headache and i'm embarassed that i let you drag me into this nonsense. Were not accomplishing anything. peace.

I predicted this response in my earlier post. This is what happens when walderness is asked to speak to direct contradictions he made in his previous posts.

Nice try though.

 

[45408]

Ignorance regarding a disability you have no knowledge of.

You guys arent worth this to tell you the truth. Its just giving me a headache and i'm embarassed that i let you drag me into this nonsense. Were not accomplishing anything. peace.

The only nonsense here is the nonsense you created.

 

[Haemulon]

Even though this thread has strayed from the OP's original post, there are still some usefull points of discussion if we can go at this a different way. Perhaps focusing on hypothetical scenarios and more general discussions of medical training/practice and disabilities would help? I know that I am interested in the topic. However, anytime a discussion starts to focus around one's personal situation the discussion can become hazardous. Then again, perhaps the topic has already burnt out, which makes it a moot point.