Real numbers

Discussion in 'Caribbean' started by oldpro, May 14, 2008.

  1. oldpro

    oldpro MS IV

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,619
    Likes Received:
    9
    Status:
    Medical Student
    Ok we talk about You should go to a us school, fine but getting into one is darn hard take the University of Maryland

    and

    And then this


    All the university of Maryland

    less then 10% that apply get accepted

    So you are going to tell a person with a 3.0 and 26 MCAT to what? Keep trying to get in US schools? Do you see why I post and play devils advocate here?

    The min requirements make it look like there is a shot for some of these people but what the average accepted student above says volumes to me, it says that no way will a 3.0 and 26 get into a US school,

    This is just one school and example but I could with time prove the case that the cards are greatly stacked against getting into a US school unless you have an awesome undergrad.

    Yes a post bac can help but only if the undergrad is 3.0 ish or better.

    Thats why I believe sometimes that the caribbean is the answer.
     
  2. Thread continues after this sponsor message. SDN Members do not see this ad.

  3. Top Gun

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2007
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    206
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    The Caribbean is a great option for those with somewhat a lower GPA (like 3.0) and lower MCAT scores (like 24 or 26), I agree. Certain Caribbean schools do in fact provide an education comparable to those of US schools, particularly SGU, Ross, and AUC. But, I still encourage those with a lower GPA and MCAT to do everything possible to improve their scores and then reapply to US med schools because grads from US med schools not only have a higher likelihood of matching into residency, but are also more likely to obtain a residency in the specialty of their choice. Of course, some people may have families and do not want to waste more time, so in these cases, Caribbean might be a better option. However,while it is certainly not impossible for a Caribbean grad to match, if you go to the Caribbean, you have to work harder to get the residency you want.
     
  4. oldpro

    oldpro MS IV

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,619
    Likes Received:
    9
    Status:
    Medical Student
    Good Post! Yes I may attend a School other then these but I also think these 3 are the best choice, I do not think one is so much better then the other I think they are close to equal...............
     
  5. Top Gun

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2007
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    206
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Didn't mean to imply that your school wasn't good, by the way. I'm just not familiar with St. James. I'm sure its better than a lot of other Caribbean schools, though.
     
  6. oldpro

    oldpro MS IV

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,619
    Likes Received:
    9
    Status:
    Medical Student
    Oh its ok, SJSM is well the last ditch, last chance schools of the legit schools.

    They do take people with low GPA's ( like 2.1 but I only know of 2 or 3 out of 400) They also work with us in MD4 before clinicals with physical Diagnosis class, we use Bates. As for the USMLE, they tell all of us to take Kaplan or another course and I think that is wise but its my opinion.

    Really SGU, ROSS and AUC are more like US schools and may still accept lower GPA's at times but hey thats what these schools are here for IMHO to give all who really desire to study medicine a shot. I do not see it as a sin.
     
  7. Top Gun

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2007
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    206
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Oh, neither do I, believe me. As I mentioned before, if you have tried at least twice to get into US schools and have done everything you can to boost your credentials, the Caribbean is a great option. The problem is that there are so many premeds and US med students who have a rather snobbish attitude toward the Caribbean and look down on us. Not to mention the fact that residency directors favor applicants from US med schools.
     
  8. Terpskins99

    Terpskins99 Fear... The Stig

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2005
    Messages:
    3,437
    Likes Received:
    7
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    No offense, but why wouldn't they?

    Many of those applicants from US med schools have never faced any degree of academic failure in their life. It only makes sense that if you go the Caribbean route, you would be expected to exceed the average performance of american graduates in order to return. Otherwise the only difference between you and an american grad that perform comparably on boards is the fact that you slipped up earlier in your academic career.
     
  9. Top Gun

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2007
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    206
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    So a Caribbean grad slipped up earlier in their academic career. Big deal. If they've turned it around in med school, and performed as well as any US med student, including on the USMLE, why should it make a difference? They weren't necessarily incapable of performing well in college. It could be that at the time they weren't as mature and didn't know how to deal with the workload. But if they end up doing well in med school, and performing comparably to US med students, that shows that they've changed and proven that they were capable. If they didn't perform as well as US med students, then there would be a good reason to favor US med students applying for residency. But if they are performing at basically the same level as most US med students, then why should their earlier slipups haunt them for the rest of their natural life? What if a student who had been a slacker in high school, but managed to obtain a 3.7 in college and a 34 on the MCAT was applying to med school? Should he be denied admission because of his poor high school record?
    Here's another thing, there are US med students who slip up along the way, and they manage to get into US schools. Some may have a misdemeanor conviction, or a history of drug abuse, and they still get in. Then most of them manage to get into residency.
     
  10. Top Gun

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2007
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    206
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Oh, and for the record, I already matched into an internship for this year. I start in 3 weeks. So I'm certainly not complaining about higher standards for Caribbean residency applicants because of failure to match into a residency.
     
  11. Terpskins99

    Terpskins99 Fear... The Stig

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2005
    Messages:
    3,437
    Likes Received:
    7
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    It makes a difference BECAUSE its a difference. Thats the whole point. If you perform equally as well as an american grad, then the only thing to distinguish you from them is the fact that you screwed up in college. So when a residency director has a your application with your one blemish in college, and a stack of other applications that do not have that blemish... of course they're going to chose the other students. If you think thats harsh, well thats life.

    Not getting accepted to an american medical school isn't a punishment. Just how not getting selected for residency isn't a punishment. With residency, it is the residency director comparing all the applications of people sent to him, and deciding which applicant carries the most promise as well as the least risk. In their eyes, the risk that someone will screw up again is more likely with someone with a history of doing so as opposed to someone that has never screwed up to begin with.

    Well if every other applicant likewise had a 3.7 GPA and a 34 on their MCAT but didn't have any baggage of any kind, then yes he should get passed over. You are making the assumption that your high school performance shouldn't matter. I am saying that all other things being equal, the non-screw up will and should get the slot.

    It just means that their GPA/MCAT/extracurriculars/LORs (whatever) were that much stronger to overcome their black marks. And that is my whole point about the caribbean graduates (not implying that anyone went to the caribbean because of legal problems, of course). You go to the caribb schools because you weren't as qualified to get into an american medical school... in the residencies eyes, you automatically will have to make yourself that much better of a candidate in order to be seen as an "equivalent candidate" to the american grad.

    I don't think you disagree with this. The only point of contention is how MUCH your undergraduate record should matter. Frankly, I don't have an opinion either way. But I know that many of the competitive residencies look at the caribbean programs very negatively. People that choose to go to the caribbean need to accept that, otherwise don't go.
     
  12. oldpro

    oldpro MS IV

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,619
    Likes Received:
    9
    Status:
    Medical Student
    A lot of us have good records and "Qualify for US schools" The problem many times on the these boards and in some programs there is a lumping together of all of the FMG grads and very BIAS lumping at that. There is no real study to say that FMG practicing Doctors are any better or worse then US Grad Practicing Doctors, this is based on Opinion not facts. (Please no Board scores that is not what I'm talking about)


    I think this can not really be backed up well, I know of people with below 3.0 undergrad that did a masters and did get into a US school DO or MD, so these things really are very argumentative.


    Well not so many times, US students some have poor undergrad and had some kind of luck getting somewhere, ( a few cases of "Money talks too" or "Politics" Look at the Florida school). How do you explain the US students who take the USMLE 2 and 3 times? I know of a few ( I will not give names sorry you can say I'm making it up but I'm not they had issues)


    No for the most part except my comments I think you have somethings there are true, a lot of Caribbean students do have poorer stats and I agree you should be content with lesser residencies but as far as undergraduate record matter? No it should not undergrad has nothing to really do with your practicing of Medicine. (In my Opinion) :cool:
     
  13. BrainBuff

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,407
    Likes Received:
    55
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    yea right...and that's the reason why you "chose" to go to the caribbean. I know, I know, great school and you can not beat the beach!

    I can see that this is just turning into the same old argument, with some of the same old usual players.

    Terpskins99, you are right on the money. Unfortunately, some people on this forum are always on major denial..
     
  14. oldpro

    oldpro MS IV

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,619
    Likes Received:
    9
    Status:
    Medical Student
    Like you Brain Buff...........you always think you know everything! LOL

    If you do not like the Caribbean forum you are welcomed to ignore it and not post here then.

    I make valid points in your world do not count.

    In your world Caribbean students should shut up and bow to you since we are second rate and are lucky to even get a medical degree.

    Must be lonely in your world? I live in reality.
     
  15. Top Gun

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2007
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    206
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Brain Buff, as a child were you severely abused by a Caribbean med student? Oldpro is right. I had several classmates with great GPA's and MCAT's who still couldn't get into a US school simply because there wasn't enough room for them.

    Even if you had lower stats at the beginning, what is most important is:
    1.) making it through a Caribbean med school in a timely manner
    2.) sucessfully completing Step 1 and Step 2
    3.) matching into a residency

    After completing all three of the above, your undergrad record is, for all intents and purposes, history. Once you have landed a residency, your college record becomes a thing of the past. As a Caribbean grad, I have completed all three of the above steps and am now looking forward to starting residency in less than three weeks. So has oldpro. And so have most of the students from my graduating class.

    So, to tell you the truth, your comments mean nothing to us. You got into a US med school? Good for you, congratulations, that's wonderful. Do you want a long, slow, round of applause? Or shall all of us Caribbean med students and grads kowtow to you?
     
  16. Thread continues after this sponsor message. SDN Members do not see this ad.

  17. Top Gun

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2007
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    206
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Brain Buff, as a child were you severely abused by a Caribbean med student? Oldpro is right. I had several classmates with great GPA's and MCAT's who still couldn't get into a US school simply because there wasn't enough room for them.

    Even if you had lower stats at the beginning, what is most important is:
    1.) making it through a Caribbean med school in a timely manner
    2.) sucessfully completing Step 1 and Step 2
    3.) matching into a residency

    After completing all three of the above, your undergrad record is, for all intents and purposes, history. Once you have landed a residency, your college record becomes a thing of the past. As a Caribbean grad, I have completed all three of the above steps and am now looking forward to starting residency in less than three weeks. So has oldpro. And so have most of the students from my graduating class.

    So, to tell you the truth, your comments mean nothing to us. You got into a US med school? Good for you, congratulations, that's wonderful. Do you want a long, slow, round of applause? Or shall all of us Caribbean med students and grads kowtow to you?
     
  18. BrainBuff

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,407
    Likes Received:
    55
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    ^^^ No, I have never been abused. Try to stick to the discussion and do not digress with personal attacks and innuendos.

    There was a point, very well made by Terpskins99, that as usual in this forum, you two are not able to debate rationally. This has nothing to do with liking or disliking the caribbean nor this has nothing to do with ever being abused by someone or not.

    This has to do with the following statement: "A lot of us have good records and "Qualify for US schools"

    No, you don't. Because if you had qualified for any US schools, you would be attending one right now or would have graduated from one. No spinning can hide that and it looks extremely foolish to try to portrait otherwise.

    Notice how the rest of your posts have nothing to do with the fact in question.

    Now, let's just talk about something else,...please.
     
  19. oldpro

    oldpro MS IV

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,619
    Likes Received:
    9
    Status:
    Medical Student
    The qualification for just about any US medical school is

    3.0 GPA
    MCAT taken
    3 years (90 credits ) of undergrad with
    1yr of each
    Bio
    Chem
    Ochem
    Physics


    I can now quote these requirements from an Mid level Medical School University of Maryland
    http://medschool.umaryland.edu/admissions/AppReq.asp


    You see Brain Buff once again I can post the reality and facts

    The above says that the Admissions standard are not considered as high as I are you want to believe, it is because it is competitive and students are selected ( different from qualified) to be given a seat, that the GPA and MCAT requirements are higher.

    According to the above if you are within this range then you are qualified for medical school. No BS this is straight from University of Maryland School of medicine. I can go on and on I have read these standardsat many of the US schools.:smuggrin:
     
  20. Instatewaiter

    Instatewaiter But... there's a troponin

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2006
    Messages:
    5,892
    Likes Received:
    1,801
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    we're just talking semantics now...

    qualifying to apply and qualifying to get in are two separate things.
     
  21. oldpro

    oldpro MS IV

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,619
    Likes Received:
    9
    Status:
    Medical Student
    No thats not true, when the school Admin wants a certain person admitted to the Medical school (Like in Florida) the lowest criteria can be used by the school Admin.

    It happens at all schools, anytime this is pushed. It can also be pushed by the Adcom when they have someone they really liked but the GPA and MCAT are under the competition at the school, they still accept them since it is still above the basic requirements.

    It is not semantics, the law is practiced in this way, it is they way things are done.

    ANyway I'm not the one who wants to fight and put others down all the time just point out the hypocrisy of the USA where a Nurse can become a DNP and expect to be called DOCTOR in the clinical setting................I'm a southern rebel at heart!
     
  22. Instatewaiter

    Instatewaiter But... there's a troponin

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2006
    Messages:
    5,892
    Likes Received:
    1,801
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    You keep talking about that one instance in florida as though it were a regular occurence. You have yet to provide me with any other examples... wonder why.

    Again, this has nothing to do with the law but, yes, law is essentially an exercise in semantics if you ask me.

    There are multiple people in my class whose raw GPA are sub 3.0 yet they spent years in graduate school to prove they belong. I assure you they belong. There is quite a bit more to an application than MCAT and GPA. While those two metrics are important, so are ECs, humanitarian efforts, personality, compassion and a whole host of other things.
     
  23. Instatewaiter

    Instatewaiter But... there's a troponin

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2006
    Messages:
    5,892
    Likes Received:
    1,801
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Really what does this have to do with anything? DNPs have yet be inserted into the mainstream much less any hospital from what I understand. The difference in education will either become clearly apparent and you will see a backlash or it wont be and you will see them filling a gap in the US healthcare system.

    For better or worse, midlevels have served a vital role and perhaps DNPs will too. Or maybe not... who knows.

    Southern rebel... ? What?
     
  24. oldpro

    oldpro MS IV

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,619
    Likes Received:
    9
    Status:
    Medical Student
    There is a recent article, intention, design as well as current students in DNP programs that this is NP taken to this level, DNP stands for Doctor of Nurse Practice it is intended at the Care giver level.

    Read up on it and you will see what is going on and why those of us who understand this are alarmed, the Purpose behind the DNP is to replace Family Practice and Pediatricians in Primary Care settings.

    As far as Hypocrisy in the USA, its real

    We have DNP, Dr of PA now, and Natural Pathic Doctors in AZ as primary care, this is not improving the level of care of People,

    On the other end we have this Bias by some towards FMG MD's that I cannot understand, its silly when we have real issues with primary care.

    The Medical Profession needs to wake up, FMG's are far from the Problem

    We have to pass all three Steps and do at least a 3 year residency, we are well tested and trained to practice, these DNP, Dr PA, and Natural Pathic Doctors are not prepared nor trained as such and are the real threat.

    You see I point out the Hypocrisy in the USA and there are a few on here who think telling me it does not exist and at times insult me in public (Like calling me a fool) are not helping anyone, I point these things out to help others, I REBEL at a system with problems and does not work as well as it should, if medical education worked as well as it should in the USA there would not be such a huge shortage and there would be less attending the Caribbean Schools to meet the need, Residency programs would have been increased by now to help meet the need, yet we are in this mess. I decided to go to a Caribbean school because of this screwed up MCAT/GPA/every grade counts system in the USA. A system that makes some of us go to school for more then a few extra years to just get a shot at studying medicine. I say FOrget them! One can go to the Caribbean and study medicine. It does not mean I'm not just as Qualified it just means I do not have forever in my life to go to school.( 44 at present)

    Believe what you want but good students go to Caribbean schools each year and some are more Qualified then those at US medical Schools. This is a fact that can be backed up and it is reality.

    Deal with it.
     

Share This Page