Ross University School of Medicine MATCH 2016 Results!

[Law2Doc]

What ought to be focused on is not the couple of good matches but the 20+ people who just got prelim years (esp prelim surgery) and are basically going to have to try again next year. A lot of these spots are potentially dead end. This is the real travesty with offshore schools -- not that nobody makes it --but that between a high attrition rate and lots of dead ends, lots of people will spend years of their lives and hundreds of thousands of dollars and still not become a doctor. And this is at one of the big three -- the other competitors in this group don't even fare as well.

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[pacman2018]

damn, i wan't some of the kool aid y'all are drinking down there...

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Do not feed the respawned troll:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/help-please-sgu-vs-ross.1113324/page-5

 

[673441]

Do not feed the respawned troll:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/help-please-sgu-vs-ross.1113324/page-5

Ya that's it, I'm a troll.


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[673441]

Based on your sense of humor, you're either 4 years old or bipolar going through a manic episode.

Why don't you grow a spine or something and stop being so damn uptight.


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[673441]

Call me delusional, out of touch or what have you, I didn't come here for your opinions on my decision to attend a Caribbean program. I came here to show that we got some prestigious slots this year but you all seem to focus on the attrition, the prelim that probably DO match the following year (and if they don't that's a risk they take) and all this bureaucratic red tape you all so vehemently think is going to prevent me from matching. I had 8 close friends enter this match having come from the big 3 and all matched their first choice programs. 5/8 were at educational institutions such as Wayne, NYU, FSU, WMU (and they just opened a medical school). Might I add that 3/8 were categorical surgery positions. You all operate on what you hear from people who were never qualified to be in the game and generalize that to the rest of us. That's fine, everyone does it. But we see what hard work is because we live it daily and we WILL reap what we sow.

In hind sight it was probably a bad decision to start this thread since I forgot what type of judgmental, closed-minded and down-right rude people inhabit this forum.


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[DrDarce]

OP I just want to say that you must have expected this when you posted it here. That's probably why they are calling you a troll. People on SDN get overly crazy about Caribbean schools (whether warranted or unwarranted). The truth is that the match list could be 100 percent and into competitive specialties and people here will find fault in it. Hell, there was a neurosurgery match from Ross which impresses me and people were saying how that isn't impressive. I don't know the numbers for DO schools and neurosurgery but it's my understanding that it's very scarce for them as well.

 

[673441]

OP I just want to say that you must have expected this when you posted it here. That's probably why they are calling you a troll. People on SDN get overly crazy about Caribbean schools (whether warranted or unwarranted). The truth is that the match list could be 100 percent and into competitive specialties and people here will find fault in it. Hell, there was a neurosurgery match from Ross which impresses me and people were saying how that isn't impressive. I don't know the numbers for DO schools and neurosurgery but it's my understanding that it's very scarce for them as well.

Not a troll. Just had a lapse in judgement.


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[mimelim]

#1 Reading too much into match lists anywhere is pretty silly. General trends are obviously important when considering where people should apply for medical school, but a tremendous amount of caution is obviously warranted when people try to divine much more than that.

#2 I don't know why they can't figure out how to publish their match results without blatant errors and inconsistencies. It just makes it look like they are making it up. Why some specialties include locations and others don't, why some are "Primary" and others not makes no sense. I also didn't believe one of the matches, so I asked one of my friends at the program in question and they offered a prelim spot to the person, not a categorical spot. So, again, all of this is assuming that Ross didn't just make up stuff left and right...

That having been said, basic numbers analysis because nobody has posted it yet:

735 Total Matches
253 Family Med
227 Internal Med
60 Pediatrics
29 Psychiatry
26 Anesthesiology
24 Radiology
19 General Surgery
19 OBGyn
18 Emergency Medicine
6 Neurology
5 Med-Peds
5 PMR
2 Dermatology
1 Child Neurology
1 Emergency/Family Med
1 Neurosurgery

24 Prelim Surgery
10 Prelim Medicine

I'm sure that I missed a couple of things again because of the ****ty formatting that they used for this and I'm not going to spend the time to go line by line and double check things.

I don't think that the following is really up for dispute:

#1 Caribbean schools attract students that for the most part could not get into a US based program. Thus, on average they are far weaker academically than their USMD counter parts.
#2 Attrition is variable among the schools, but is somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-25%, even for the 'best' schools.
#3 People match every year out of the Caribbean into US programs. They help fill in many less desirable programs across the country, especially in primary care.
#4 Not all competitive specialty spots are particularly competitive. There are bad programs out there. There are very undesirable programs out there. Additionally, sometimes programs simply interview poorly, invite the wrong people, etc. and even end up going unmatched or matching their 20th choice. This is especially true in specialties where only 1-3 residents are taken each year.
#5 As with everything, the cream rises to the top. Good students that push through end up doing fine. The problem is of course that the students are academically weaker on average.

 

[Goro]

Cue for Argus to come in sputtering "but, but NRMP!!!"

What ought to be focused on is not the couple of good matches but the 20+ people who just got prelim years (esp prelim surgery) and are basically going to have to try again next year. A lot of these spots are potentially dead end. This is the real travesty with offshore schools -- not that nobody makes it --but that between a high attrition rate and lots of dead ends, lots of people will spend years of their lives and hundreds of thousands of dollars and still not become a doctor. And this is at one of the big three -- the other competitors in this group don't even fare as well.

 

[Goro]

To add to my learned colleague's words, I quote the venerable gyngyn:

"The pool of US applicants from the Caribbean is viewed differently by Program Directors. The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior. This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are. Some PD's are in a position where they need to, or can afford to take risks too! So, some do get interviews.

Bad grades and scores are the least of the deficits from a PD's standpoint. A strong academic showing in a Caribbean medical school does not erase this stigma. It fact it increases the perception that the reason for the choice was on the above-mentioned list!

Just about everyone from a Caribbean school has one or more of these problems and PDs know it. That's why their grads are the last choice even with a high Step 1 score.

There was a time when folks whose only flaw was being a late bloomer went Carib, but those days are gone. There are a number of spots at US schools with grade replacement for these candidates."

I don't think that the following is really up for dispute:

#1 Caribbean schools attract students that for the most part could not get into a US based program. Thus, on average they are far weaker academically than their USMD counter parts.
#2 Attrition is variable among the schools, but is somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-25%, even for the 'best' schools.
#3 People match every year out of the Caribbean into US programs. They help fill in many less desirable programs across the country, especially in primary care.
#4 Not all competitive specialty spots are particularly competitive. There are bad programs out there. There are very undesirable programs out there. Additionally, sometimes programs simply interview poorly, invite the wrong people, etc. and even end up going unmatched or matching their 20th choice. This is especially true in specialties where only 1-3 residents are taken each year.
#5 As with everything, the cream rises to the top. Good students that push through end up doing fine. The problem is of course that the students are academically weaker on average.

 

[tymont12]

Call me delusional, out of touch or what have you, I didn't come here for your opinions on my decision to attend a Caribbean program. I came here to show that we got some prestigious slots this year but you all seem to focus on the attrition, the prelim that probably DO match the following year (and if they don't that's a risk they take) and all this bureaucratic red tape you all so vehemently think is going to prevent me from matching. I had 8 close friends enter this match having come from the big 3 and all matched their first choice programs. 5/8 were at educational institutions such as Wayne, NYU, FSU, WMU (and they just opened a medical school). Might I add that 3/8 were categorical surgery positions. You all operate on what you hear from people who were never qualified to be in the game and generalize that to the rest of us. That's fine, everyone does it. But we see what hard work is because we live it daily and we WILL reap what we sow.

In hind sight it was probably a bad decision to start this thread since I forgot what type of judgmental, closed-minded and down-right rude people inhabit this forum.

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People focus on the attrition, prelim dead-ends and red tape because that is THE NORM based on school and match statistics. You can't claim that the prestigious 2/735 matches is a trend. The trend is FM, IM, prelim or no match at all. You can include being kicked out if you count the whole initial class as well. This is called being realistic, not negative.

You seem to have a pair of unremovable blinders on. I get it though, you're in the Caribbean so you gotta drink the Kool-aid. But stop pulling the underdog card.

 

[673441]

People focus on the attrition, prelim dead-ends and red tape because that is THE NORM based on school and match statistics. You can't claim that the prestigious 2/735 matches is a trend. The trend is FM, IM, prelim or no match at all. You can include being kicked out if you count the whole initial class as well. This is called being realistic, not negative.

You seem to have a pair of unremovable blinders on. I get it though, you're in the Caribbean so you gotta drink the Kool-aid. But stop pulling the underdog card.

The other option for myself and others in my situation was no med school if it wasn't for Ross.


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[673441]

You all make this generally inaccurate assumption that people who choose the Caribbean can improve their application and try again successfully later not bearing in mind the extraneous factors. Mimelim mentioned a few but he missed the financial aspect of non-upward motility so to speak.


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[WingedOx]

OP I just want to say that you must have expected this when you posted it here. That's probably why they are calling you a troll. People on SDN get overly crazy about Caribbean schools (whether warranted or unwarranted). The truth is that the match list could be 100 percent and into competitive specialties and people here will find fault in it. Hell, there was a neurosurgery match from Ross which impresses me and people were saying how that isn't impressive. I don't know the numbers for DO schools and neurosurgery but it's my understanding that it's very scarce for them as well.

So let's translate the bolded: "I'm not actually familiar with the process that programs go through to select candidates, but I have an opinion that I'm going to spurt off despite the fact that it goes against what more experienced posters who actually have worked in the selection process are saying and have intimate knowledge of the programs in question on this and previous years' lists."

@mimelim's point #4 is especially important.Just because you see a match in Integrated Vascular from a Carib school doesn't mean that the programs intended to match that person.

You all make this generally inaccurate assumption that people who choose the Caribbean can improve their application and try again successfully later not bearing in mind the extraneous factors. Mimelim mentioned a few but he missed the financial aspect of non-upward motility so to speak.

wut?

 

[673441]

So let's translate the bolded: "I'm not actually familiar with the process that programs go through to select candidates, but I have an opinion that I'm going to spurt off despite the fact that it goes against what more experienced posters who actually have worked in the selection process are saying and have intimate knowledge of the programs in question on this and previous years' lists."

@mimelim's point #4 is especially important.Just because you see a match in Integrated Vascular from a Carib school doesn't mean that the programs intended to match that person.

wut?

Lol, not doing ****.


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[WingedOx]

Another little bonus for those of you looking at the list: There are a lot of Central Michigan matches on that list. CMU essentially took over and nudged out Ross from their clinical sites (which Ross used heavily... a lot of their M3s used to end up in Saginaw for clinicals) when Central established their med school three years ago. Expect those doors to slam shut to Ross grads once CMU graduates its first class next year

 

[Goro]

This won't be the only instance of this happening. I expect Arrowhead will also squeeze out their Carib MS3s for their own once the new schools gets on the ground.

Another little bonus for those of you looking at the list: There are a lot of Central Michigan matches on that list. CMU essentially took over and nudged out Ross from their clinical sites (which Ross used heavily... a lot of their M3s used to end up in Saginaw for clinicals) when Central established their med school three years ago. Expect those doors to slam shut to Ross grads once CMU graduates its first class next year

 

[Anicetus]

I'm going to back up the Caribbean student here and say that those attrition rates are overly blown when people try to use them in context. MOST of those students who fail out of the Caribbean medical schools are people who honestly don't know their anus from a hole in the ground and got in because let's face it, these schools aren't hard to get accepted to. The MAJORITY of students who had the ability to get into DO with so so stats (27 Mcat, 3.1 gpa) have a very high chance of graduating and matching back in the U.S...

N=7 but every single person I know from my state undergrad who went to Caribbean matched successfully in the U.S. So honestly people shouldn't think they will be part of that 1/3 who fail out if they were generally average U.S. College graduates because the people you're competing against, a huge chunk of them have barely opened a textbook in their entire lives.

 

[midwestisbest]

You all make this generally inaccurate assumption that people who choose the Caribbean can improve their application and try again successfully later not bearing in mind the extraneous factors. Mimelim mentioned a few but he missed the financial aspect of non-upward motility so to speak.


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When twenty people hold one opinion, and one person holds a different one, Occam's Razor suggests that it's more likely that one person is wrong than twenty. You could counter with a point about popular politics, and I'd say this is a forum with generally informed participants.

To any premeds reading, it is possible to match a good program out of the Caribbean, but it's one hell of a risk. Investing 4 years and $200,000 plus interest with a not-insignificant chance of not making it through school or not matching? No thanks.

 

[673441]

The same tired old tune is played and has been played since the inception of SDN. "Caribbeans got about 5 years max before they are pushed out of the picture... " -says every SDN'er ever! It's getting old... Just accept those who are IMG for their knowledge and acumen, not their place of graduation. Enough already with this 2-bit discrimination tactic.

Edit:
Also, Devry in all of their glory is a very smart business. They don't eff around with their money. Granted they have pending litigation for other universities, but look at this way, would a for profit college continue investments into an offshore, high-risk asset if they didn't think long term recuperation was possible? Also, this is highly political whether others want to acknowledge this or not. To protect their asset they have a very nice budget for those good old lobbyists in Washington. Why do you think Texas is currently being sued for their lock out of IMGs? Ross continues getting hefty investments from Devry evidenced by their newly built 20M student center. I would be worried if investment was not taking place and their was no TP in their restrooms. Then I would start to worry.


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[673441]

When twenty people hold one opinion, and one person holds a different one, Occam's Razor suggests that it's more likely that one person is wrong than twenty. You could counter with a point about popular politics, and I'd say this is a forum with generally informed participants.

To any premeds reading, it is possible to match a good program out of the Caribbean, but it's one hell of a risk. Investing 4 years and $200,000 plus interest with a not-insignificant chance of not making it through school or not matching? No thanks.

Lemme see... Has anyone gone to Ross? I would be 99.9% sure that no one commenting has any experience having gone to Ross (not any other school). Yes, some may be former PDs or consultants on boards for programs or whatever... But if they were at top 10 programs, that plays a big role in how the Caribbean grads faired. Occam's razor is a lazy mans way to explain a complex process. This is definitely a complex one with many facets that need to be considered.


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[673441]

This won't be the only instance of this happening. I expect Arrowhead will also squeeze out their Carib MS3s for their own once the new schools gets on the ground.

There will always be others to take their place. Ross added 2 clinical rotation sites this year as part of their track programs.
http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/academics/hospital.cfm

 

[midwestisbest]

Lemme see... Has anyone gone to Ross? I would be 99.9% sure that no one commenting has any experience having gone to Ross (not any other school). Yes, some may be former PDs or consultants on boards for programs or whatever... But if they were at top 10 programs, that plays a big role in how the Caribbean grads faired. Occam's razor is a lazy mans way to explain a complex process. This is definitely a complex one with many facets that need to be considered.


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That was the kindest way I could think to say that you're wrong and frankly delusional. I absolutely trust the word of the faculty/adcom/residency PDs who post here regularly when it comes to match list importance and relative ease of matching from and risk of attending Caribbean schools over the word of a random M2 with a chip on his/her shoulder.

By all means, work hard and earn your residency spot, but I think it's irresponsible to tout this path as a reasonable option, and you can fully expect to get pushback when you post about it here.

 

[673441]

That was the kindest way I could think to say that you're wrong and frankly delusional. I absolutely trust the word of the faculty/adcom/residency PDs who post here regularly when it comes to match list importance and relative ease of matching from and risk of attending Caribbean schools over the word of a random M2 with a chip on his/her shoulder.

By all means, work hard and earn your residency spot, but I think it's irresponsible to tout this as a reasonable path, and you can fully expect to get pushback when you post about it here.

If you read the entire dialogue I had with others who commented on this thread you will know that I do NOT condone this as a first choice. If you are merely not willing to wait or have good enough stats for DO programs and really want an MD instead, don't take this route. I have reiterated that already. Stop putting words in my mouth as if I am on here advertising for new students. I am here to prove that the students who come out of here have moxy, work-ethic and INTELLIGENCE rivaling (if not better in some circumstances) our AMG counterparts. That has been my sole intent from the beginning of this thread. However, the usual suspects just feel the need to publicly lambast anyone who differs with their opinion on a public forum. The RD's (I have no idea who they are) who commented on this thread stating that I have no chance or the end is near, need a reality check. I never denied it was going to be difficult. The difference was I knew the risk going in and I understand the importance of my performance on board exams and excelling in clinical rotations. You people just want to make medicine an all AMG club, that just is NOT going to happen.

 

[WingedOx]

Also, Devry in all of their glory is a very smart business. They don't eff around with their money.

You mean the company whose stock has lost 50% of its value in the last 12 months?

/honestly we need to sticky this thread in Pre-allo to serve as a warning about the bad arguments made by cheerleaders of schools like Ross and AUC.

 

[sloop]

Nobody said you were going to be a terrible doctor . . .

But since you brought it up, I will bring this up: my experience with grads of Caribbean schools has been entirely hit or miss. I've rotated through a few programs that were quite populated with them so I have some experience. A good half or more are totally competent people who are nice and easy to be around. A lot of them, however are insecure to an extreme: at two separate programs in two separate specialties I have experienced residents who try to show off to the attendings by intercepting questions clearly fielded at the med students before giving them a chance to answer. There is also a not insignificant minority of them that is scary incompetent: One neuro resident rotating through psych who couldn't do an "is this postpartum depression?" consult to save her life, one family medicine intern in the second part of the year who kept asking me what she should put for the HPI in the H&P because she legitimately didn't know what she should write, etc.

I have no doubt that there are people who graduate from Caribbean schools who become excellent doctors. I've met some that I admire a lot. Still, you're being foolish if you think that, as a group, they are on par with AMGs. They're just not.

 

[673441]

Nobody said you were going to be a terrible doctor . . .

But since you brought it up, I will bring this up: my experience with grads of Caribbean schools has been entirely hit or miss. I've rotated through a few programs that were quite populated with them so I have some experience. A good half or more are totally competent people who are nice and easy to be around. A lot of them, however are insecure to an extreme: at two separate programs in two separate specialties I have experienced residents who try to show off to the attendings by intercepting questions clearly fielded at the med students before giving them a chance to answer. There is also a not insignificant minority of them that is scary incompetent: One neuro resident rotating through psych who couldn't do an "is this postpartum depression?" consult to save her life, one family medicine intern in the second part of the year who kept asking me what she should put for the HPI in the H&P because she legitimately didn't know what she should write, etc.

I have no doubt that there are people who graduate from Caribbean schools who become excellent doctors. I've met some that I admire a lot. Still, you're being foolish if you think that, as a group, they are on par with AMGs. They're just not.

The education we get is mirrored off of the AMG system. What aspect of AMG education produces a better doctor? Just curious about your 2-cents here... Also, were they Ross grads? My entire argument is framed around Ross and only Ross... Not SGU, not SABA, not even AUC (which is owned by DeVry).

You mean the company whose stock has lost 50% of its value in the last 12 months?

/honestly we need to sticky this thread in Pre-allo to serve as a warning about the bad arguments made by cheerleaders of schools like Ross and AUC.

Dude. They are being SUED for another university that they own. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with Ross. Their net worth is still in the billions and they still are a viable business. The point you make is because they take a dip in their stock then they are not business savvy anymore. Seems legit. Also, we can just agree to disagree and you can go on your way. Let pre-meds make their own decision with facts in hand. All you and others commenting on this thread just demonstrated was how defensive you are about being outshadowed. Understandable. My little 3 year old nephew hates when other 3 year olds take his toys.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I'm going to back up the Caribbean student here and say that those attrition rates are overly blown when people try to use them in context. MOST of those students who fail out of the Caribbean medical schools are people who honestly don't know their anus from a hole in the ground and got in because let's face it, these schools aren't hard to get accepted to. The MAJORITY of students who had the ability to get into DO with so so stats (27 Mcat, 3.1 gpa) have a very high chance of graduating and matching back in the U.S...

N=7 but every single person I know from my state undergrad who went to Caribbean matched successfully in the U.S. So honestly people shouldn't think they will be part of that 1/3 who fail out if they were generally average U.S. College graduates because the people you're competing against, a huge chunk of them have barely opened a textbook in their entire lives.

I have to disagree here and will use a post that I made countering a similar statement.

I disagree with the big 4 being good option. One could go to a DO school with average MCATs of 24-25, they would still have lower attrition (<8%) and a far better placement rate (98-100%). If one attends Ross, there will be a 20% loss during the first two years, then another loss in 3rd/4th years, then you have your placement rate at 88%. This means at most a 70% placement rate from start to finish attending Ross versus 90%+ start to finish from a DO school.

Also those matches into Mayo were 2 at the Florida hospital (not flagship) and 1 at Minnesota (flagship but surgery prelim). The only impressive matches were the 2 derm and 1 neurosurgery. This still doesn't change the whole safety issue of attending the caribbean.

All the Ross match shows is the status quo with an extremely small amount of good matches versus the previous year. We will only start seeing the numbers truly decrease 5-10 years down the line. Its not a safe choice in comparison to a DO school.

 

[NontradCA]

Wait you're an M2, you haven't even taken step 1 yet? Please GTFO, you'll be lucky to match anywhere if you even make it to that point. Please post to this thread in a couple years when you are 400k in debt with no options, or only a crappy prelim match with no option for advancement

There's no need to be such a dick.

 

[sloop]

The education we get is mirrored off of the AMG system. What aspect of AMG education produces a better doctor? Just curious about your 2-cents here... Also, were they Ross grads? My entire argument is framed around Ross and only Ross... Not SGU, not SABA, not even AUC (which is owned by DeVry).

At least 2 of the residents I mentioned above I know were Ross grads. One was SGU and the other I have no idea and didn't ask.

As for the part that makes better doctors: it's the part that more particularly screens for people demonstrating that they are well-adjusted, high-performing people and have been for most of their adult lives. You can't try to forge a sword out of lead and expect it to perform the same as a steel one. Even if the process is exactly the same, the materials aren't.

 

[673441]

At least 2 of the residents I mentioned above I know were Ross grads. One was SGU and the other I have no idea and didn't ask.

As for the part that makes better doctors: it's the part that more particularly screens for people demonstrating that they are well-adjusted, high-performing people and have been for most of their adult lives. You can't try to forge a sword out of lead and expect it to perform the same as a steel one. Even if the process is exactly the same, the materials aren't.

Oh that has to be the most insanely ridiculous generalization I have ever heard in my life... You are assuming that the process for entry into medical school in the states is NOT political, it is. Is not based on demographic, it is. Is not based on favoritism, it is. You're absolutely WRONG to assume the process of medical school admission is an accurate indicator of success as a physician. So misguided in that statement it boils my blood.

 

[sloop]

Oh that has to be the most insanely ridiculous generalization I have ever heard in my life... You are assuming that the process for entry into medical school in the states is NOT political, it is. Is not based on demographic, it is. Is not based on favoritism, it is. You're absolutely WRONG to assume the process of medical school admission is an accurate indicator of success as a physician. So misguided in that statement it boils my blood.

Alright, dude. Whatever you want to believe. If we can't agree that people who have performed better in the past are more likely to perform better in the future, then this is clearly a futile discussion.

 

[673441]

Alright, dude. Whatever you want to believe. If we can't agree that people who have performed better in the past are more likely to perform better in the future, then this is clearly a futile discussion.

Oh so my 3.1 because of full time work and supporting of my family with a 26 MCAT precludes me from being a better doctor? Consider my situation and compare me to the rich kid with mommy and daddy catering to their every need who got a 3.8 and a 30 MCAT. The rich kid gets in because his numbers look better but I don't and my situation is irrelevant. But you're right, this discussion is definitely a dead-end since the culture of down-right intellectual discrimination is rampant in this forum.

 

[username456789]

The other option for myself and others in my situation was no med school if it wasn't for Ross.


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And a lot of the times "no Med school" is the correct option in those instances.

 

[piii]

Oh so my 3.1 because of full time work and supporting of my family with a 26 MCAT precludes me from being a better doctor? Consider my situation and compare me to the rich kid with mommy and daddy catering to their every need who got a 3.8 and a 30 MCAT. The rich kid gets in because his numbers look better but I don't and my situation is irrelevant. But you're right, this discussion is definitely a dead-end since the culture of down-right intellectual discrimination is rampant in this forum.

Wow you sound incredibly bitter. You realize you are just as judgmental in this post about "rich applicants" as other people in this thread are about carib grads? There are tens of thousands of applicants who had the same responsibilities and life situations as you who still maintained high GPA, MCATs, and ECs. Not saying this about you specifically, but not everyone should be a doctor just cause they want to.

 

[username456789]

The same tired old tune is played and has been played since the inception of SDN....

... Just accept those who are IMG for their knowledge and acumen

We have been, since the inception of SDN, and that's the reason we are where we are now.

 

[psychMDhopefully]

Oh so my 3.1 because of full time work and supporting of my family with a 26 MCAT precludes me from being a better doctor? Consider my situation and compare me to the rich kid with mommy and daddy catering to their every need who got a 3.8 and a 30 MCAT. The rich kid gets in because his numbers look better but I don't and my situation is irrelevant. But you're right, this discussion is definitely a dead-end since the culture of down-right intellectual discrimination is rampant in this forum.

The saddest part about this is, if your stats are true, a few retakes and you would have been competitive for some DO schools with a fairly decent chance at matching, instead of hoping for a hail mary at a carib school.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

US schools produce similar if not WORSE match stats then what was produced above.

As someone who has gone through the match process, I can clearly say that your statement is full of ****. You're an uninformed M2 and you clearly do not know what you're talking about. That or you're delusional. Looking at the radiology match (because it's my field), it's full of undesirable community and academic programs that have had their fair share of problems (exception: Yale, which is a good program IMO). I looked at all the other match lists in the other thread; Ross, by far, has the worst radiology match. I can assume the same for all other fields. Do you think Ross students wanted to match into those programs specifically? If they had the option, they would aim higher, but the glass ceiling of being an IMG holds them down. Look, I've spoken to radiology chairmen who have explicitly said they would resort to picking up IMGs only if they didn't have a good shot at getting a full match of US MD/DOs. (Notable exception: WashU at St. Louis, arguably the best radiology training program, seems to pick up an FMG every year, but the candidate is likely a super-stellar candidate.)

Anyone want to take bets on when this thread will be closed?

 

[Biochemistry2014]

The 5 Stages of Grief:

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

We have already seen OP move from stage 1 to stage 2. Lets see if we can make it all the way to stage 5 before the thread closes.

 

[Law2Doc]

... If we can't agree that people who have performed better in the past are more likely to perform better in the future, then this is clearly a futile discussion.

To be fair, the whole foundation of offshore schools is premised on the notion of slow starters/ underachievers who are looking for one last Hail Mary opportunity to turn things around. And some absolutely do. And will mostly populate some of the less desirable primary care spots as this match list shows. And probably become very good doctors because they have to overachieve just to not be known as "that Caribbean grad". But many do fail out along the way, and others end up in dead end surgery prelims (as this match list also shows).

And as mentioned above, some of the offshore schools often manage to "mistakenly" list prelim spots as categorical, or lump small unimpressive community hospital residencies under the names of their more prestigious affiliated academic institutions, or count people from a prior year's class who (finally) matched this year into this year's match list, etc-- there is no auditing so they can polish the list to look the best it can. Makes it very hard to evaluate.

Finally, If there's 1-3 markedly more prestigious matches in a list of 700, not only is that an insignificant percentage, but it screams people with amazing connections - you won't be able to follow that guy into Derm or neurosurgery.

 

[673441]

The saddest part about this is, if your stats are true, a few retakes and you would have been competitive for some DO schools with a fairly decent chance at matching, instead of hoping for a hail mary at a carib school.

Your "expert" opinion and speculation is not relevant, nor did I ask for it.

Wow you sound incredibly bitter. You realize you are just as judgmental in this post about "rich applicants" as other people in this thread are about carib grads? There are tens of thousands of applicants who had the same responsibilities and life situations as you who still maintained high GPA, MCATs, and ECs. Not saying this about you specifically, but not everyone should be a doctor just cause they want to.

What? I make a general statement about the circumstances that enable some of these kids to get such high marks and you think I'm bitter? I am not complaining about this decision. I still stand by my choice and I will get a good residency spot when the time comes whether you all think its true or not.

We have been, since the inception of SDN, and that's the reason we are where we are now.

What?

As someone who has gone through the match process, I can clearly say that your statement is full of ****. You're an uninformed M2 and you clearly do not know what you're talking about. That or you're delusional. Looking at the radiology match (because it's my field), it's full of undesirable community and academic programs that have had their fair share of problems (exception: Yale, which is a good program IMO). I looked at all the other match lists in the other thread; Ross, by far, has the worst radiology match. I can assume the same for all other fields. Do you think Ross students wanted to match into those programs specifically? If they had the option, they would aim higher, but the glass ceiling of being an IMG holds them down. Look, I've spoken to radiology chairmen who have explicitly said they would resort to picking up IMGs only if they didn't have a good shot at getting a full match of US MD/DOs. (Notable exception: WashU at St. Louis, arguably the best radiology training program, seems to pick up an FMG every year, but the candidate is likely a super-stellar candidate.)

Anyone want to take bets on when this thread will be closed?

This doesn't concern me. I am looking for IM, and to reiterate what I have already said, what other caribbean students strive for doesn't concern me.

 

[673441]

The 5 Stages of Grief:

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

We have already seen OP move from stage 1 to stage 2. Lets see if we can make it all the way to stage 5 before the thread closes.

Ok. Since you can totally sense that I am angered through a computer screen.

To be fair, the whole foundation of offshore schools is premised on the notion of slow starters/ underachievers who are looking for one last Hail Mary opportunity to turn things around. And some absolutely do. And will mostly populate some of the less desirable primary care spots as this match list shows. And probably become very good doctors because they have to overachieve just to not be known as "that Caribbean grad". But many do fail out along the way, and others end up in dead end surgery prelims (as this match list also shows).

And as mentioned above, some of the offshore schools often manage to "mistakenly" list prelim spots as categorical, or lump small unimpressive community hospital residencies under the names of their more prestigious affiliated academic institutions, or count people from a prior year's class who (finally) matched this year into this year's match list, etc-- there is no auditing so they can polish the list to look the best it can. Makes it very hard to evaluate.

Finally, If there's 1-3 markedly more prestigious matches in a list of 700, not only is that an insignificant percentage, but it screams people with amazing connections - you won't be able to follow that guy into Derm or neurosurgery.

See above. I don't care what others get matched into as long as I see IM being matched I'm fine.

 

[Goro]

Taken from a post by the wise gonnif in the pre-Allo forum. This bus is coming.

http://www.ecfmg.org/about/initiatives-accreditation-requirement.html
Medical School Accreditation Requirement for ECFMG Certification

ECFMG® has announced that, effective in 2023, physicians applying for ECFMG Certification will be required to graduate from a medical school that has been appropriately accredited. To satisfy this requirement, the physician’s medical school must be accredited through a formal process that uses criteria comparable to those established for U.S. medical schools by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) or that uses other globally accepted criteria.

 

[673441]

Taken from a post by the wise gonnif in the pre-Allo forum. This bus is coming.

http://www.ecfmg.org/about/initiatives-accreditation-requirement.html
Medical School Accreditation Requirement for ECFMG Certification

ECFMG® has announced that, effective in 2023, physicians applying for ECFMG Certification will be required to graduate from a medical school that has been appropriately accredited. To satisfy this requirement, the physician’s medical school must be accredited through a formal process that uses criteria comparable to those established for U.S. medical schools by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) or that uses other globally accepted criteria.

Ross, AUC, St. Georges, SABA and alot of other schools already have ECFMG certification. This is not new to us, and Ross has changed some things around effective this semester to try to accommodate more changes by the ECFMG. This is not new at all... Who this law affects is the off-shore no name schools that sprout like candida in the oral cavity of an HIV patient.

 

[Bryan O’Blivion]

Oh so my 3.1 because of full time work and supporting of my family with a 26 MCAT precludes me from being a better doctor? Consider my situation and compare me to the rich kid with mommy and daddy catering to their every need who got a 3.8 and a 30 MCAT. The rich kid gets in because his numbers look better but I don't and my situation is irrelevant. But you're right, this discussion is definitely a dead-end since the culture of down-right intellectual discrimination is rampant in this forum.

I understand your frustration, but this is a generalization. Yes, obviously people with access to more resources are often able to perform better on many of the objective metrics of admission, and it is much more difficult to achieve competitive numbers while taking care of other responsibilities. This is not lost on most people, including admission committees.

There are many non-trad applicants who have had personal responsibilities, and still managed to perform well enough to be competitive with the "rich kid" stereotype that you refer to.

Unfortunately, grade inflation in undergraduate institutions has become pretty rampant, and students often receive B's with a very weak grasp of the fundamental sciences, so when someone has a soft GPA and below median MCAT, an evaluator has to consider the possibility that they may be very poorly prepared to start medical school and start assimilating information at the rate that is expected and required to complete the course of training on time. Accepting a person in this situation does a disservice to everybody involved, especially the applicant.

The attrition rate from your institution that you report speaks to the admission committee at your school poorly addressing this concern.

Good luck, I hope that you complete your medical education and match in an IM program that you thrive in.

Some advice: Spend less time arguing on message boards and more time studying. You will find, particularly as you progress, that time is a luxury you have less and less of, and time spent mastering the M1-M2 material will serve you well later. Defending a match list to anonymous strangers will get you nothing. The past is the past, you are where you are. Make the most of it.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

This doesn't concern me. I am looking for IM, and to reiterate what I have already said, what other caribbean students strive for doesn't concern me.

If you don't mind matching into a place with inferior IM training or even perhaps a malignant reputation, fine, that's your prerogative.

Based on my interviews for preliminary medicine, those places do exist and are heavily populated with IMG/FMG residents because the fact of the matter is that they didn't have as many options. It's not about you as it is about premeds potentially choosing a Caribbean school over waiting it out and reapplying given the opportunity.

Regardless, I hope you match into the IM program of your dreams.

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

Oh so my 3.1 because of full time work and supporting of my family with a 26 MCAT precludes me from being a better doctor? Consider my situation and compare me to the rich kid with mommy and daddy catering to their every need who got a 3.8 and a 30 MCAT. The rich kid gets in because his numbers look better but I don't and my situation is irrelevant. But you're right, this discussion is definitely a dead-end since the culture of down-right intellectual discrimination is rampant in this forum.

I'm curious: why is it ok to discriminate based on step one and not ok to discriminate by mcat or gpa?

 

[sloop]

To be fair, the whole foundation of offshore schools is premised on the notion of slow starters/ underachievers who are looking for one last Hail Mary opportunity to turn things around. And some absolutely do. And will mostly populate some of the less desirable primary care spots as this match list shows. And probably become very good doctors because they have to overachieve just to not be known as "that Caribbean grad". But many do fail out along the way, and others end up in dead end surgery prelims (as this match list also shows).

And as mentioned above, some of the offshore schools often manage to "mistakenly" list prelim spots as categorical, or lump small unimpressive community hospital residencies under the names of their more prestigious affiliated academic institutions, or count people from a prior year's class who (finally) matched this year into this year's match list, etc-- there is no auditing so they can polish the list to look the best it can. Makes it very hard to evaluate.

Finally, If there's 1-3 markedly more prestigious matches in a list of 700, not only is that an insignificant percentage, but it screams people with amazing connections - you won't be able to follow that guy into Derm or neurosurgery.

Understood. I don't deny that many offshore schools produce great doctors.

I'm just saying that it doesn't make any sense to claim that, on average, doctors who trained at these places are just as good as doctors who trained in American med schools. There's just a difference in the characteristics of the students. Of course individual people have individual reasons for being there, but, on average, students at offshore schools are probably just not as capable as their counterparts in the U.S.

The people who deny this irritate me because it smacks of this ridiculous, insecure mindset of "I simply don't accept that different groups of people might be different with regards to intelligence, capability, etc. We're all in med school, so we're all equally awesome!"

 

[psychMDhopefully]

At this point I'm getting a strong wiff of personality disorder coming from this dude delusional/ narcissistic. Most likely why he's in the carib.