Should i become a dentist or a doctor?

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I really cannot prove that they are inflated, however from my experience and the experience of others around me, unless you are willing to go 2 hours outside of a major metro/desirable area then the numbers are inflated. I am not saying they are impossible, but that they are unlikely.

My wife and I have a pretty good pulse on the pharmacy and dental economy, and honestly if we could move I would to a secure a high income practice. She worried about finding full time work/as high paying work if we move though.

As for for what an oral surgeon earns, I have only handful of experiences to really guess from. I would wager they are making about 300K+ I do not believe they are making half a million dollars unless they have a packed schedule and are working at a blistering pace.

Again all my knowledge in anecdotal to my situation and what I can see and this is the internet so take everything with a grain of salt.

Thanks for your posts. A oral surgeon should easily eclipse 500K if they work in private practice as an owner or a partner. If they do academia or some form of hospital work, this figure will drop.

The best source of income figures is to look at P&L statements of dental practices. Check with some dental CPAs to get a better idea of regional markets.

Congratulations on graduating and wishing you success in finding a good private to purchase!

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that's odd since most people said ADA is underestimating income not overestimating. @Cold Front @TanMan do you guys know any peers or classmates doing this poorly?
I graduated in 2010; I have classmates who finished 6 years OS residency last year, some who still live with their parents, some finally opening a practice, others still associating or teach at a dental school, couple of girls became full time housives after becoming trophy wives to their high earner spouses, some still in the navy, my roommate from dental school works in a hospital and teaches at a medical school (he was 2nd to the class valedictorian), some bought practices, some built solo practices from scratch, but I think I was the only one who ended up with 3 practices in last 7 years (first practice opened 6 months after I graduated). That's the picture so far. On average, I think my class falls within the ADA stats range.

How do I know all this? Facebook!
 
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You're also forgetting that a prestigious dental school means little to nothing to most people.
 
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I graduated in 2010; I have classmates who finished 6 years OS residency last year, some who still live with their parents, some finally opening a practice, others still associating or teach at a dental school, couple of girls became full time housives after becoming trophy wives to their high earner spouses, some still in the navy, my roommate from dental school works in a hospital and teaches at a medical school (he was 2nd to the class valedictorian), some bought practices, some built solo practices from scratch, but I think I was the only one who ended up with 3 practices in last 7 years (first practice opened 6 months after I graduated). That's the picture so far. On average, I think my class falls within the ADA stats range.

How do I know all this? Facebook!

Through FB you know how much your class makes? :p

And what % of those people you stay in touch with are still in the navy/startup/associating/early purchase acquisition stage - perhaps when everyone is a bit more settled in say 10 years, they will be on average quite a bit above the ADA stats?
 
Thanks for your posts. A oral surgeon should easily eclipse 500K if they work in private practice as an owner or a partner. If they do academia or some form of hospital work, this figure will drop.

The best source of income figures is to look at P&L statements of dental practices. Check with some dental CPAs to get a better idea of regional markets.

Congratulations on graduating and wishing you success in finding a good private to purchase!
traveling omfs make this or more but is questionable in ethics according to some omfs. Also corporate omfs make buttloads (according to the omfs in the thread I posted) but again some consider it questionable while others have a good system going (I believe localnative either does corporate 1 or 2 days a week or travels to dental clinics and has a good thing going on). I honestly can't see why 400+ would be too hard to obtain if you're in a more T&T based thing and money is a goal. On /r/dentistry OMFS also agree that saturation isn't too big a deal (unless you're in center of like a major major city) and that things are looking good. Also dentists on dentaltown say something similar. The thread I posted had at least 3 omfs all saying 350 is pretty easy and you can make what you want. Who knows though
 
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I graduated in 2010; I have classmates who finished 6 years OS residency last year, some who still live with their parents, some finally opening a practice, others still associating or teach at a dental school, couple of girls became full time housives after becoming trophy wives to their high earner spouses, some still in the navy, my roommate from dental school works in a hospital and teaches at a medical school (he was 2nd to the class valedictorian), some bought practices, some built solo practices from scratch, but I think I was the only one who ended up with 3 practices in last 7 years (first practice opened 6 months after I graduated). That's the picture so far. On average, I think my class falls within the ADA stats range.

How do I know all this? Facebook!
Yea if I went into general I would hope to be more like you than a 120k associate for years or living in the boonies, but we can't know that until the future. The ones in 6 year omfs probably aren't thinking of money as much (access omfs has an article about the 1 million dollar sacrifice or whatever to get MD) and teaching at schools would be a pretty low cash gig.

I think overall IF you landed an omfs residency it's much easier to make 500k+ than for a dentist to replicate what you have done (or even reach 300k+). I'm a lowly entering D1 but just looking around /r/dentistry, dentaltown, posts (like the one from leather ITT), dentists around me, I know at least this much. Not to mention OMS are paid during residency (60k?) for 4 years so if you're a gd starting at the average of like 120k out of school for a few years you would be maybe like 300-400k ahead (assuming you reach 160/180k by the 4th year). Not to mention the things that haunt predents and dental students and new grads these days (saturation + dental therapists + corporation) don't touch omfs as much as gd for sure.

I will admit if you want to get a tanman or coldfront kind of thing going on general dental may be your best bet, but I feel like they are extreme outliers. Or else these forums+dtown+reddit+dentists in my town would all be much more optimistic, and everyone would say "yes go to the 400k dental school because you can make 300k per year working 35 hrs a week like me". Alas this doesn't seem to be the case in a majority of the dental pop and even less as the field gets more saturated.

I know you gotta take risks in business to succeed, but in my opinion you also have to look at the worst case scenario and the median/average (seeing as you don't know how good you're gonna be at certain things or whatever in the future).
-Worst case scenario imo that's still realistic is graduate 350k+ debt, make 120k for a year or 2, then 140k, then after like 5-10 years you're making 180k. I believe leather? itt said he thinks the median is 150 among him and classmates he knows and stuff like that. Actually worst case could be taking on even more debt opening a practice and having it fail. And a good case scenario for general dent would be making like 120k for a year (or fewer amount of time) and opening a practice then doing well for years while working <40 hours per week and making like 200-300k after a few years. But this seems to be so much harder now since people are saying saturation is everywhere (and by the time I graduate it will be 2021 so it will only be worse).

Whereas on the other hand I feel a worst case scenario for an omfs is doing academic because you want to making like <200k or something but average case going private practice making <300k for first year or 2 then comfortably being at like 350-750 in the future with still a gd lifestyle. Then again this depends on if I can even get good grades in dental school which is a BIG IF since I never felt I was a genius.
 
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My last post of the night and the first few I've made in 5 years! (Trying to convince my wifey to get an account)

I think income will largely come down to where you practice. I again operate in a major metro of 1 million plus people, which may be affecting my income. I do think Tanman, Cold, and the 500k OMFS are exceptional practitioners. Given how negative dentaltown is (Especially GPs), I am glad to see a few dentites living the dream.
 
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Yea if I went into general I would hope to be more like you than a 120k associate for years or living in the boonies, but we can't know that until the future. The ones in 6 year omfs probably aren't thinking of money as much (access omfs has an article about the 1 million dollar sacrifice or whatever to get MD) and teaching at schools would be a pretty low cash gig.

I think overall IF you landed an omfs residency it's much easier to make 500k+ than for a dentist to replicate what you have done (or even reach 300k+). I'm a lowly entering D1 but just looking around /r/dentistry, dentaltown, posts (like the one from leather ITT), dentists around me, I know at least this much. Not to mention OMS are paid during residency (60k?) for 4 years so if you're a gd starting at the average of like 120k out of school for a few years you would be maybe like 300-400k ahead (assuming you reach 160/180k by the 4th year). Not to mention the things that haunt predents and dental students and new grads these days (saturation + dental therapists + corporation) don't touch omfs as much as gd for sure.

I will admit if you want to get a tanman or coldfront kind of thing going on general dental may be your best bet, but I feel like they are extreme outliers. Or else these forums+dtown+reddit+dentists in my town would all be much more optimistic, and everyone would say "yes go to the 400k dental school because you can make 300k per year working 35 hrs a week like me". Alas this doesn't seem to be the case in a majority of the dental pop and even less as the field gets more saturated.

If you reached 160/180K by year 4 (seems like a conservative estimate, I feel like it could be higher tbh), and you did the same level of production as an owner, you will make more. If we say 25% of a practice's production is hygiene (that's pretty fair, 25% is the average I believe), then you'd be doing 210-240 by doing the same level of production as you were as an associate. Not to mention the owner makes a bit of income from you as the associate so you would be able to cash flow more of your own production as an owner. Let's say you get 10% more on top of the 160-180 (feels pretty fair), you're looking at 225-260K with the hygiene income.

But there's more. As an owner you get to have some business writeoffs. You can also reduce taxes through depreciation, amortization, and practice loan interest expenses. Income splitting with your spouse. Other S-corp benefits. It's going to feel quite a bit more than 225-260K.

Once again, these are just conservative estimates based on your post.
 
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If you reached 160/180K by year 4 (seems like a conservative estimate, I feel like it could be higher tbh), and you did the same level of production as an owner, you will make more. If we say 25% of a practice's production is hygiene (that's pretty fair, 25% is the average I believe), then you'd be doing 210-240 by doing the same level of production as you were as an associate. Not to mention the owner makes a bit of income from you as the associate so you would be able to cash flow more of your own production as an owner. Let's say you get 10% more on top of the 160-180 (feels pretty fair), you're looking at 225-260K with the hygiene income.

But there's more. As an owner you get to have some business writeoffs. You can also reduce taxes through depreciation, amortization, and practice loan interest expenses. Income splitting with your spouse. Other S-corp benefits. It's going to feel quite a bit more than 225-260K.

Once again, these are just conservative estimates based on your post.
I feel like the odds of doing this are just getting lower is all since everyone is yelling out saturation at the top of their lungs on literally EVERY forum I see. And there are even people saying they regret going into dentistry now and wouldn't touch dental with 300k loans (which isn't even as much as some schools out there). And I feel you need to factor in buying a practice which could be 500k+ no? Then you would be in even more debt to be making 250k if you're lucky. Plus theleatherwalle who is a very recent graduate is believing 150k is the median among practicing dentists and says starting is 120 or less. And that's still not considering the fact that there exists practices that fail. And I'm sure those dentists buying or starting practices that eventually failed were not people with potatoes for brains. It could be any of us. Finally we still aren't considering dental therapists or other bs that could affect us in the future. If general dental was easy as 130k for 1-2 years, 180k next 2, then 250+ for the rest of your life on a <40 hour work week, I would never consider specializing or be apprehensive about the future. But there are too many cases (including theleatherguy, SDN, dtown, reddit, dentists I know) of that not being the case. And again: the future is not going to be up (please correct me if I'm wrong). The rise of corporation/saturation is not gonna stop for no reason. Finally, general practitioners income went down in recent (past 5?) years while specialists was on the rise.

Disclaimer: I am a person who looks at worst case scenarios and average a lot more than an optimist looking at say top 25% scenarios or best case scenarios. It has to do with me being pretty self-critical and also a somewhat pragmatic and slightly cynical person. I know risk taking is important for business skills but I am also in some ways a take the safe route kinda guy and would choose a 90% chance at 350k+ with a hell of a lot more blood,sweat, and tears to get in over a 10% chance at 350k+ with a not as difficult entry fee. I'm also like I said only an entering D1 who by all means may not have what it takes to specialize, so I'm only speaking in hypotheticals.
 
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I feel like the odds of doing this are just getting lower is all since everyone is yelling out saturation at the top of their lungs on literally EVERY forum I see. And there are even people saying they regret going into dentistry now and wouldn't touch dental with 300k loans (which isn't even as much as some schools out there). And I feel you need to factor in buying a practice which could be 500k+ no? Then you would be in even more debt to be making 250k if you're lucky. Plus theleatherwalle who is a very recent graduate is believing 150k is the median among practicing dentists and says starting is 120 or less. And that's still not considering the fact that there exists practices that fail. And I'm sure those dentists buying or starting practices that eventually failed were not people with potatoes for brains. It could be any of us. Finally we still aren't considering dental therapists or other bs that could affect us in the future. If general dental was easy as 130k for 1-2 years, 180k next 2, then 250+ for the rest of your life on a <40 hour work week, I would never consider specializing or be apprehensive about the future. But there are too many cases (including theleatherguy, SDN, dtown, reddit, dentists I know) of that not being the case. And again: the future is not going to be up (please correct me if I'm wrong). The rise of corporation/saturation is not gonna stop for no reason. Finally, general practitioners income went down in recent (past 5?) years while specialists was on the rise.

Disclaimer: I am a person who looks at worst case scenarios and average a lot more than an optimist looking at say top 25% scenarios or best case scenarios. It has to do with me being pretty self-critical and also a somewhat pragmatic and slightly cynical person. I know risk taking is important for business skills but I am also in some ways a take the safe route kinda guy and would choose a 90% chance at 350k+ with a hell of a lot more blood,sweat, and tears to get in over a 10% chance at 350k+ with a not as difficult entry fee. I'm also like I said only an entering D1 who by all means may not have what it takes to specialize, so I'm only speaking in hypotheticals.

I tend to look at P&L statements of dental practices more than ADA/BSL because I'm not sure what these organizations are reporting? Just W-2? Dentists typically only report W-2 salaries they take that are "reasonable incomes" (they are advised to take about 150K) and leave the rest in their S-corp. For me, net income is cash flow. If you're using cash flow to pay off a practice loan, that's still income - you're just redirecting it to pay off an asset you can sell in the future.

Yes there are dental practices that "fail". But fail is a pretty subjective term. And the default rate is 1% according to banks.

Here is a question that is rhetorical. If you're an associate that does 120K by year 1 or 2 (there was another post on SDN by someone in BC, Canada taking home 15-16K/month in year 1 so it depends on where you're looking TBH), wouldn't you be looking to do more than 150K as an owner? Something doesn't add up does it?
 
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I tend to look at P&L statements of dental practices more than ADA/BSL because I'm not sure what these organizations are reporting? Just W-2? Dentists typically only report W-2 salaries they take that are "reasonable incomes" (they are advised to take about 150K) and leave the rest in their S-corp. For me, net income is cash flow. If you're using cash flow to pay off a practice loan, that's still income - you're just redirecting it to pay off an asset you can sell in the future.

Yes there are dental practices that "fail". But fail is a pretty subjective term. And the default rate is 1% according to banks.

Here is a question that is rhetorical. If you're an associate that does 120K by year 1 or 2 (there was another post on SDN by someone in BC, Canada taking home 15-16K/month in year 1 so it depends on where you're looking TBH), wouldn't you be looking to do more than 150K as an owner? Something doesn't add up does it?
Agreed but wouldn't you say it's harder to even become an owner now let alone a successful one? Dtown has a post up this very minute with people talking about how single doc private practice is getting harder to do and corporation/group practices are being more common. If the statement was hey you make 120k as an associate but you buy practice and guaranteed 150+ then I would be agreeing more with you but associating is a 100% thing while ownership is not.

You definitely know a lot more about me than this probably (idk what a P&L is atm or W-2) and I appreciate your knowledge and more positive outlook.
 
I feel like the odds of doing this are just getting lower is all since everyone is yelling out saturation at the top of their lungs on literally EVERY forum I see. And there are even people saying they regret going into dentistry now and wouldn't touch dental with 300k loans (which isn't even as much as some schools out there). And I feel you need to factor in buying a practice which could be 500k+ no? Then you would be in even more debt to be making 250k if you're lucky. Plus theleatherwalle who is a very recent graduate is believing 150k is the median among practicing dentists and says starting is 120 or less. And that's still not considering the fact that there exists practices that fail. And I'm sure those dentists buying or starting practices that eventually failed were not people with potatoes for brains. It could be any of us. Finally we still aren't considering dental therapists or other bs that could affect us in the future. If general dental was easy as 130k for 1-2 years, 180k next 2, then 250+ for the rest of your life on a <40 hour work week, I would never consider specializing or be apprehensive about the future. But there are too many cases (including theleatherguy, SDN, dtown, reddit, dentists I know) of that not being the case. And again: the future is not going to be up (please correct me if I'm wrong). The rise of corporation/saturation is not gonna stop for no reason. Finally, general practitioners income went down in recent (past 5?) years while specialists was on the rise.

Disclaimer: I am a person who looks at worst case scenarios and average a lot more than an optimist looking at say top 25% scenarios or best case scenarios. It has to do with me being pretty self-critical and also a somewhat pragmatic and slightly cynical person. I know risk taking is important for business skills but I am also in some ways a take the safe route kinda guy and would choose a 90% chance at 350k+ with a hell of a lot more blood,sweat, and tears to get in over a 10% chance at 350k+ with a not as difficult entry fee. I'm also like I said only an entering D1 who by all means may not have what it takes to specialize, so I'm only speaking in hypotheticals.

Well, I guess I lied about my last post for the night.

1. Let no one distract you from your goal.
2. Doing your HW on what is financially prudent is a smart idea. (I know people in SoCal who can't even crack 90k a year and went to USC)
3. That goldmine is out there! It just may not be in a hip city. Everyone always screams to go practice in Texas, but everyone wants to practice in Houstin, Austin or Dallas. From one of my classmates experiences, Houston is saturated beyond belief.
5. Practices are expensive, but not that expensive from my look around in my area. Find a seller who is not emotionally attached or be willing to let go of some of the fancy toys in your practice. I might honestly start my AMA about practice buying since I am on the hunt.
6. Stop saying you will work under 40 hours. I've never met anyone successful who works under 40 hours.

I do believe the numbers Steins posted are insanely optimistic, but man money isn't everything.

I live in a great city, in a fantastic part of town, Combined with my wife were prolly right under or slightly over 300k, we're in the 1 percent, and we're under 30.

Keep your head up. Talk of corporations, saturation, and lower insurance reimbursement will be had for the next 10 years (trust me my wife is a pharmy, and i know she deals with it on a daily basis with her coworkers)

My only complaint is that my wife complains about her feet and I complain about my hands.

We've strayed pretty far from the original posters question, but I don't want to keep necroing this thread.

Go out there and become whatever you wish to be!
 
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Well, I guess I lied about my last post for the night.

1. Let no one distract you from your goal.
2. Doing your HW on what is financially prudent is a smart idea. (I know people in SoCal who can't even crack 90k a year and went to USC)
3. That goldmine is out there! It just may not be in a hip city. Everyone always screams to go practice in Texas, but everyone wants to practice in Houstin, Austin or Dallas. From one of my classmates experiences, Houston is saturated beyond belief.
5. Practices are expensive, but not that expensive from my look around in my area. Find a seller who is not emotionally attached or be willing to let go of some of the fancy toys in your practice. I might honestly start my AMA about practice buying since I am on the hunt.
6. Stop saying you will work under 40 hours. I've never met anyone successful who works under 40 hours.

I do believe the numbers Steins posted are insanely optimistic, but man money isn't everything.

I live in a great city, in a fantastic part of town, Combined with my wife were prolly right under or slightly over 300k, we're in the 1 percent, and we're under 30.

Keep your head up. Talk of corporations, saturation, and lower insurance reimbursement will be had for the next 10 years (trust me my wife is a pharmy, and i know she deals with it on a daily basis with her coworkers)

My only complaint is that my wife complains about her feet and I complain about my hands.

We've strayed pretty far from the original posters question, but I don't want to keep necroing this thread.

Go out there and become whatever you wish to be!
yea my <40 hrs is just according to ADA and what a dental school dean told me (and specialist report i believe average <40 hours). I will definitely do more than that early on no matter what kind of dentistry I'm practicing (why work <40 hrs when you don't have jack as a fresh grad)?

This is very on topic for this thread imo: the op and lurkers who are concerned about med vs dent would benefit greatly from a view of dentistry and specialties (they can just compare and contrast with what's on the med forum if they want, although this is a small sample size either way).

Thanks a lot for the positive look and advice. Dentists make this forum very valuable, especially recent grads who provide a very realistic outlook.
 
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Not overly optimistic.

I'll break it down in another manner.

3.5K prod/day is more than reasonable as an owner. 250 days/year = 875K prod/year. Let's say 92% collection rate (in Canada we're almost at 100%) = 805K collections. 35% of 805K (65% OH is average, let's say) = $281K and you still need to add 10-15% for tax benefits of being an owner + business writeoffs of meals/entertainment/car/gas/phone/etc.

Okay let's say you have a 700K prod office. Let's run the numbers again. $245K. 600K prod office? $210K.
 
Through FB you know how much your class makes? :p

And what % of those people you stay in touch with are still in the navy/startup/associating/early purchase acquisition stage - perhaps when everyone is a bit more settled in say 10 years, they will be on average quite a bit above the ADA stats?
I didn't say I know how much my classmates make, but they do share where they work, which shows if they are associates v practice owners. They also share photos of the houses they live in, the cars they drive, the trips they go to, the construction of their new offices, etc. a very good friend of mine has a practice in Bay Area of California, and he told me most of his paycheck goes towards his home.

Future doctors should know that making $100-200k today versus 20 years or so ago is not the same. I have said in previous posts, cost of living and other expenses have increased at a high rate compared to the stagnant dental income (fee schedules/insurance reimbursements). Starting salary for a dentist has barely changed the last 15-20 years.

A recent study showed the least stressed out group of dentists are they young dentists, because they have no reference point of how difficult or challenging the profession has become the past 15-20 years. The most 2 stressed out groups are the people at the height of their career (aged 40-55), because they remember the good times before the 2008 economic recession, when patients had more disposable income for their oral health treatment and the dental insurances were easier to work with because patients had great plan so theought their employers, relative to cost of living and office overhead. Dentists at age 55-65+ are also stressed out because their savings have been hit hard by the recession and many were forced to work beyond retirement age in an environment where they are not investing in new technologies and equipment (and why should they spend that extra money when the have a decade or so left of their career, when there is a good chance the office might not sell because many of their dentist colleagues at the same age will retire also as one of the largest block by age in the workforce).

It's easy for a D1 to D4's to get excited about how much money is waiting at the end of the tunnel. Truth is, many young dentists have already mentally committed to a certain lifestyle as a result of that income the ADA or other practicing dentists tell them. I remember when I offered $140k to an associate of mine when he finished school. He was over the moon. He was turning 29 at the time. I asked him 3 years later what his thoughts were of that offer, and he said he grossly underestimated his lifestyle expenses and as a result barely made a dent on his student loans and no real savings.

In any case, this trend of rising inflation and the unchanged dental insurance reimbursements will continue to be an obstacle at a higher level than today in the future. New dentists who will get their first job offers 10-20 years from now will still be excited as much as their colleagues who finished school today at that $120-140k starting salary, but they won't realize (and I should really say they don't ask) what personal and business expense challenges awaits for such income.

The average net income for a single new dentist after taxes is about $8k. Their average student loans personal expenses is about $6k. If they ever make twice that down the road, their expenses will also rise (marriage, mortgage, kids, pets, more traveling, more inflation and so on). It's the reason why I moved more into real estate and other businesses as a safety net and move away from dentistry towards retirement.
 
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I didn't say I know how much my classmates make, but they do share where they work, which shows if they are associates v practice owners. They also share photos of the houses they live in, the cars they drive, the trips they go to, the construction of their new offices, etc. a very good friend of mine has a practice in Bay Area of California, and he told me most of his paycheck goes towards his home.

Future doctors should know that making $100-200k today versus 20 years or so ago is not the same. I have said in previous posts, cost of living and other expenses have increased at a high rate compared to the stagnant dental income (fee schedules/insurance reimbursements). Starting salary for a dentist has barely changed the last 15-20 years.

A recent study showed the least stressed out group of dentists are they young dentists, because they have no reference point of how difficult or challenging the profession has become the past 15-20 years. The most 2 stressed out groups are the people at the height of their career (aged 40-55), because they remember the good times before the 2008 economic recession, when patients had more disposable income for their oral health treatment and the dental insurances were easier to work with because patients had great plan so theought their employers, relative to cost of living and office overhead. Dentists at age 55-65+ are also stressed out because their savings have been hit hard by the recession and many were forced to work beyond retirement age in an environment where they are not investing in new technologies and equipment (and why should they spend that extra money when the have a decade or so left of their career, when there is a good chance the office might not sell because many of their dentist colleagues at the same age will retire also as one of the largest block by age in the workforce).

It's easy for a D1 to D4's to get excited about how much money is waiting at the end of the tunnel. Truth is, many young dentists have already mentally committed to a certain lifestyle as a result of that income the ADA or other practicing dentists tell them. I remember when I offered $140k to an associate of mine when he finished school. He was over the moon. He was turning 29 at the time. I asked him 3 years later what his thoughts were of that offer, and he said he grossly underestimated his lifestyle expenses and as a result barely made a dent on his student loans and no real savings.

In any case, this trend of rising inflation and the unchanged dental insurance reimbursements will continue to be an obstacle at a higher level than today in the future. New dentists who will get their first job offers 10-20 years from now will still be excited as much as their colleagues who finished school today at that $120-140k starting salary, but they won't realize (and I should really say they don't ask) what personal and business expense challenges awaits for such income.

The average net income for a single new dentist after taxes is about $8k. Their average student loans personal expenses is about $6k. If they ever make twice that down the road, their expenses will also rise (marriage, mortgage, kids, pets, more traveling, more inflation and so on). It's the reason why I moved more into real estate and other businesses as a safety net and move away from dentistry towards retirement.

First half of my comment was actually tongue-in-cheek aha.

Can't speak for US. In Canada, our fee guide does increase every few years but just not at the rate of inflation.
I don't have dental school debt, which is why I was comfortable with choosing dentistry and entering D1 this fall. I plan on living frugally first 10 years out of D school. I've lived frugally all my life, it's how I was raised.
 
Not overly optimistic.

I'll break it down in another manner.

3.5K prod/day is more than reasonable as an owner. 250 days/year = 875K prod/year. Let's say 92% collection rate (in Canada we're almost at 100%) = 805K collections. 35% of 805K (65% OH is average, let's say) = $281K and you still need to add 10-15% for tax benefits of being an owner + business writeoffs of meals/entertainment/car/gas/phone/etc.

Okay let's say you have a 700K prod office. Let's run the numbers again. $245K. 600K prod office? $210K.

I'll be completely honest, I am no where near these numbers. I have a few questions.

1. 3.5K production- Is that actual production or adjusted production

I am closer to 2k going off adjusted production

2. Do you really only take 10 days off a year not counting weekends

I already take off at least 3 weeks total during year

3. How many patients do you see a day and how many hours do you work a week or per day, I may simply be slower than you as recent grad without GPR

I believe I see less than 12 patients a day (this may be wrong it all blurs together) and work around 45 hours a week. I believe I am scheduled 40, but usually something happens

4. Is your office FFS, PPO, HMO, Medicaid (I know your canadian so things might be different up north)

My office is essentially all PPO and some medicaid. FFS is dead in this area and no one I know takes HMO unless they simply want to grow the practice

5. Where do you practice? A big city like Toronto or Vancouver or somewhere out in the great beyond.
 
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I'll be completely honest, I am no where near these numbers. I have a few questions.

1. 3.5K production- Is that actual production or adjusted production
I am closer to 2k going off adjusted production
2. Do you really only take 10 days off a year not counting weekends

3. How many patients do you see a day and how many hours do you work a week or per day, I may simply be slower than you as recent grad without GPR
4. Is your office FFS, PPO, HMO, Medicaid (I know your canadian so things might be different up north)

5. Where do you practice? A big city like Toronto or Vancouver or somewhere out in the great beyond.

I'm just stating hypotheticals. There are no PPO, HMO, or Medicaid in Canada. We are mostly FFS.

You are a second year associate, is that correct? When I say 3.5K production, I'm saying actual production and then a conservative estimate of 92% collections (in Canada we are almost 100%). Could be less than 92 but I'm just saying something conservative. 2K is not bad at all for adjusted production. If you are an owner with 25% of overall production as hygiene, you would be doing ~2.7K adjusted production per day. I am assuming you will increase your speed in the next few years... I don't see 3.5K adjusted production/day as an owner an issue for you at all.
 
I'm just stating hypotheticals. There are no PPO, HMO, or Medicaid in Canada. We are mostly FFS.

You are a second year associate, is that correct? When I say 3.5K production, I'm saying actual production and then a conservative estimate of 92% collections (in Canada we are almost 100%). Could be less than 92 but I'm just saying something conservative. 2K is not bad at all for adjusted production. If you are an owner with 25% of overall production as hygiene, you would be doing ~2.7K adjusted production per day. I am assuming you will increase your speed in the next few years... I don't see 3.5K adjusted production/day as an owner an issue for you at all.
hopefully he updates us in a few years then
 
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I'll be completely honest, I am no where near these numbers. I have a few questions.

1. 3.5K production- Is that actual production or adjusted production

I am closer to 2k going off adjusted production

2. Do you really only take 10 days off a year not counting weekends

I already take off at least 3 weeks total during year

3. How many patients do you see a day and how many hours do you work a week or per day, I may simply be slower than you as recent grad without GPR

I believe I see less than 12 patients a day (this may be wrong it all blurs together) and work around 45 hours a week. I believe I am scheduled 40, but usually something happens

4. Is your office FFS, PPO, HMO, Medicaid (I know your canadian so things might be different up north)

My office is essentially all PPO and some medicaid. FFS is dead in this area and no one I know takes HMO unless they simply want to grow the practice

5. Where do you practice? A big city like Toronto or Vancouver or somewhere out in the great beyond.

What are the terms of your contract? 30% of adjusted production? 35% of collections? About 600 pretax income/day? How many days do you work?

600*5 days/week*48 weeks/year = $144K?
 
A patient canceled so here we are!

500 base guaranteed. 33% collection (this counts as part of our base) and 25% of whenever we go over our daily goal, but you have to be a certain percentage over. I think I am making a little over or little under 130k. I work 5 days a week about 9 hours a day.

I haven't seen anyone get 600 a day unless you're about an hour outside the metro.

I would generally says most associates are making 25-30% production or 28-33% collections. Basically, you take a home a third of what you produce. It might be different where you are.

I do plan to give everyone here an update in a few years if I stop posting again! Hopefully, I'll have a good story to tell.
 
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Ahh I see. Any benefits?

In Canada 40% of production is the norm. 35% is worst case.
 
130K 5 days a week is not bad for 2nd year. When are you planning to transition into ownership? How big of a practice are you looking to purchase?
 
Yea if I went into general I would hope to be more like you than a 120k associate for years or living in the boonies, but we can't know that until the future. The ones in 6 year omfs probably aren't thinking of money as much (access omfs has an article about the 1 million dollar sacrifice or whatever to get MD) and teaching at schools would be a pretty low cash gig.

I think overall IF you landed an omfs residency it's much easier to make 500k+ than for a dentist to replicate what you have done (or even reach 300k+). I'm a lowly entering D1 but just looking around /r/dentistry, dentaltown, posts (like the one from leather ITT), dentists around me, I know at least this much. Not to mention OMS are paid during residency (60k?) for 4 years so if you're a gd starting at the average of like 120k out of school for a few years you would be maybe like 300-400k ahead (assuming you reach 160/180k by the 4th year). Not to mention the things that haunt predents and dental students and new grads these days (saturation + dental therapists + corporation) don't touch omfs as much as gd for sure.

I will admit if you want to get a tanman or coldfront kind of thing going on general dental may be your best bet, but I feel like they are extreme outliers. Or else these forums+dtown+reddit+dentists in my town would all be much more optimistic, and everyone would say "yes go to the 400k dental school because you can make 300k per year working 35 hrs a week like me". Alas this doesn't seem to be the case in a majority of the dental pop and even less as the field gets more saturated.

I know you gotta take risks in business to succeed, but in my opinion you also have to look at the worst case scenario and the median/average (seeing as you don't know how good you're gonna be at certain things or whatever in the future).
-Worst case scenario imo that's still realistic is graduate 350k+ debt, make 120k for a year or 2, then 140k, then after like 5-10 years you're making 180k. I believe leather? itt said he thinks the median is 150 among him and classmates he knows and stuff like that. Actually worst case could be taking on even more debt opening a practice and having it fail. And a good case scenario for general dent would be making like 120k for a year (or fewer amount of time) and opening a practice then doing well for years while working <40 hours per week and making like 200-300k after a few years. But this seems to be so much harder now since people are saying saturation is everywhere (and by the time I graduate it will be 2021 so it will only be worse).

Whereas on the other hand I feel a worst case scenario for an omfs is doing academic because you want to making like <200k or something but average case going private practice making <300k for first year or 2 then comfortably being at like 350-750 in the future with still a gd lifestyle. Then again this depends on if I can even get good grades in dental school which is a BIG IF since I never felt I was a genius.
OMFS on average make more than average GPs. Top 1% of all dentists (including OMFS) are all GPs.
 
OMFS on average make more than average GPs. Top 1% of all dentists (including OMFS) are all GPs.
agreed. But I'd prefer not to gamble my entire future on being in the top 1% of dentists when making 500k as an omfs working good hours would not be that much worse than making a bit more as a general dentist. Not to mention you make a large chunk of your income from real estate investing correct? Making 400k+ as an omfs already puts me above literally every medical specialty given the low hours. I can increase it further by investing wisely and such, but why risk being a dentist that's not doing well (or even the average dentist making <200k)?

It's like saying the top .5% of all earners are actors. I wouldn't want to risk my entire future betting I'll be in the 1% of actors when I can do dentistry and be in the top 1-5% of American earners as a dentist and have a much higher probability of doing so.
 
Ahh I see. Any benefits?

In Canada 40% of production is the norm. 35% is worst case.

3 weeks vacation+health/malpractice/life insurance+some other random benefits.

They have a 401k match. 4%? I think. I haven't been investing any due to aggressive loan repayment.

As for the practice, I am going to set up with a dental CPA and see what exactly is the best route to take. Whatever has the lowest overhead with the greatest access to patients will win. I'd be fine with shack and 3 ops
 
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3 weeks vacation+health/malpractice/life insurance+some other random benefits.

They have a 401k match. 4%? I think. I haven't been investing any due to aggressive loan repayment.

As for the practice, I am going to set up with a dental CPA and see what exactly is the best route to take. Whatever has the lowest overhead with the greatest access to patients will win. I'd be fine with shack and 3 ops

Overall happy with dentistry so far? Would you go back in time to do medicine, as this thread is asking?
 
Yes and No...

Dentistry does get repetitive-Every case is different, but sometimes I want to pull my hair out.

I have to play salesman and clinician and that can be rather annoying.-honestly this is the most annoying part about my job. Unless the patient is in acute pain, then my clinical expertise will be treated as advice along with what aunt sally said.

I do love having good hours and making decent money. I also enjoy the fact that when I go home I am done for the day.

I do believe medicine would be more interesting in the long run and more money, but more headache as well.

I really think people should shadow and see what they prefer. Whether you want to be a physician, dentist, pharmacist, engineer, accountant, music composer, chef. Go see what they do and look at multiple ways people practice.
 
Yes and No...

Dentistry does get repetitive-Every case is different, but sometimes I want to pull my hair out.

I have to play salesman and clinician and that can be rather annoying.-honestly this is the most annoying part about my job. Unless the patient is in acute pain, then my clinical expertise will be treated as advice along with what aunt sally said.

I do love having good hours and making decent money. I also enjoy the fact that when I go home I am done for the day.

I do believe medicine would be more interesting in the long run and more money, but more headache as well.

I really think people should shadow and see what they prefer. Whether you want to be a physician, dentist, pharmacist, engineer, accountant, music composer, chef. Go see what they do and look at multiple ways people practice.

Thanks for your contributions! Come back and check in with us in a few years when you're a bit more established into ownership - I'm sure we will all want to hear from you then :)
 
You're in a dental forum. Your answers maybe more biased towards dentistry. I'll give you a +1 on dentistry.

Reasons:
1. More autonomy.
2. More entrepreneurial opportunities
3. Less time on school, more time to practice and build wealth (and family time if that's a priority)
4. Lifestyle

You have to like talking to people, being friendly or at least acting friendly. Your hand skills are not as important as how you treat the patient. If you have a terrible attitude and demeanor + you are rough on the patient, your patients will probably not come back to you. There's always the debate whether a physician or dentist makes more money. Instead of looking at the yearly income, look at the lifetime income and the income potential of having a headstart over your physician counterparts. As dentists, we make the bulk of our wealth through non-dental means.

Besides that, if you can do what I mentioned above, you should do dentistry. Those ADA stats are grossly underinflated.
 
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This is somewhat of an unverifiable statement. what is your reasoning, evidence, etc?
All corporate dental chains (now approaching 30-40% of all offices) were started and owned/co-owned by general dentists. Specialists make a high income and lead a great lifestyle, but that's where they usually stop. General dentistry in the biggest dental market within dentistry, so it takes a general dentist to be at the top at the top 1% of all dentists.

No need to verify it. Just look at as an example all the big dental companies:

1. Ultradent - Dr. Dan Fisher. He is a general dentist who started a company that sells composites to whitening products, and even ortho supplies.

2. Heartland Dental - Dr. Rick Workman. Shouldn't need an introduction. He is a general dentist, who started a network that has 750+ offices in over 34 states.

3. Comfort Dental - Dr. Rick Kushner. Franchise guru and a general dentist. Over 100 locations so far in 15 states

4. DentalTown - Dr. Howard Farran, a general dentist and a founder of the same magazine - which mails to over 120,000 dentists in 43 countries. Dr. Farran was someone I looked upto when I was in dental school, he holds a MBA too.

5. Net32.com - Dr. Patrick Cassidy, a general dentist, and co-founder of the Amazon version of dental supplies, which I happen to order supplies for all my offices.

I can keep going and won't get to a specialist that is in the same league of these higher earning general dentists.

It takes business skills to be at the top, not just being a general dentist or a specialist.
 
Yes and No...

Dentistry does get repetitive-Every case is different, but sometimes I want to pull my hair out.

I have to play salesman and clinician and that can be rather annoying.-honestly this is the most annoying part about my job. Unless the patient is in acute pain, then my clinical expertise will be treated as advice along with what aunt sally said.

I do love having good hours and making decent money. I also enjoy the fact that when I go home I am done for the day.

I do believe medicine would be more interesting in the long run and more money, but more headache as well.

I really think people should shadow and see what they prefer. Whether you want to be a physician, dentist, pharmacist, engineer, accountant, music composer, chef. Go see what they do and look at multiple ways people practice.
Did you ever consider specializing? Why did you decide not to do a GPR and are you happy with your decision?
 
I don't care much about money. I just need to make enough to pay bills and buy a reliable car.
maybe some money for my future kids' college if I get to have a family.

This guy is my role model. An 100-year-old Oral Surgeon at MGH.

 
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All corporate dental chains (now approaching 30-40% of all offices) were started and owned/co-owned by general dentists. Specialists make a high income and lead a great lifestyle, but that's where they usually stop. General dentistry in the biggest dental market within dentistry, so it takes a general dentist to be at the top at the top 1% of all dentists.

No need to verify it. Just look at as an example all the big dental companies:

1. Ultradent - Dr. Dan Fisher. He is a general dentist who started a company that sells composites to whitening products, and even ortho supplies.

2. Heartland Dental - Dr. Rick Workman. Shouldn't need an introduction. He is a general dentist, who started a network that has 750+ offices in over 34 states.

3. Comfort Dental - Dr. Rick Kushner. Franchise guru and a general dentist. Over 100 locations so far in 15 states

4. DentalTown - Dr. Howard Farran, a general dentist and a founder of the same magazine - which mails to over 120,000 dentists in 43 countries. Dr. Farran was someone I looked upto when I was in dental school, he holds a MBA too.

5. Net32.com - Dr. Patrick Cassidy, a general dentist, and co-founder of the Amazon version of dental supplies, which I happen to order supplies for all my offices.

I can keep going and won't get to a specialist that is in the same league of these higher earning general dentists.

It takes business skills to be at the top, not just being a general dentist or a specialist.

This may be true, but it on average an OMFS will usually beat a GP.

Did you ever consider specializing? Why did you decide not to do a GPR and are you happy with your decision?

I did not find a GPR to be an attractive option. I had 300k of debt (Counting interest) from my instate school that I had to pay back. My gf had just gotten a job making 120k, and I wanted to join the work force. She also had half my debt and comparing the numbers just made me want to vomit. I also did not have the grades to really specialize. I was a middle of the pack student who didn't do much outside of school. I would not recommend a GPR unless you want to specialize and just need a boost. You will quickly pick up speed and comfort in procedures as the DMOs/CORPs will push you to produce and do a variety of procedure. It will be obvious to you what you will refer out, and what you will want to keep in house.

As for the student who wants to retire by 35, good luck buddy.
 
This is somewhat of an unverifiable statement. what is your reasoning, evidence, etc?
This may be true, but it on average an OMFS will usually beat a GP.



I did not find a GPR to be an attractive option. I had 300k of debt (Counting interest) from my instate school that I had to pay back. My gf had just gotten a job making 120k, and I wanted to join the work force. She also had half my debt and comparing the numbers just made me want to vomit. I also did not have the grades to really specialize. I was a middle of the pack student who didn't do much outside of school. I would not recommend a GPR unless you want to specialize and just need a boost. You will quickly pick up speed and comfort in procedures as the DMOs/CORPs will push you to produce and do a variety of procedure. It will be obvious to you what you will refer out, and what you will want to keep in house.

As for the student who wants to retire by 35, good luck buddy.
yea it's like a guarantee to be in the top 1% of American incomes and like top 5% of dental incomes. I don't see why I would take a much greater risk (provided I have the grades) to choose general dent over omfs to have a long shot of being a top .5% of American incomes or something. Wouldn't make a big difference to me and would be much riskier.
 
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This may be true, but it on average an OMFS will usually beat a GP.
It's not "may be true", it is "true". Also, keyword here is "average", there are many dentists making less than OMFS, and many who are make more than OMFS.

Out of the active 200,000 active dentists in the US, only 9,000 are oral surgeons and about 130,000 are general dentists.

The per patient cost for average GP is about $500, for average specialist it's about $1,200. Again, "average" holds true for this comparison.

But when it comes to the "top tier" of each group, general dentists > OMFS income by miles. Name one OMFS who makes $5M+, there are easily 100's of GPS who make that number (I have already mentioned 5 of them in my earlier post, and they are widely known names).

If you consider yourself an "average" dentist, then you will make less than the "average" OMFS. If not, you will make more than OMFS.
 
It's not "may be true", it is "true". Also, keyword here is "average", there are many dentists making less than OMFS, and many who are make more than OMFS.

Out of the active 200,000 active dentists in the US, only 9,000 are oral surgeons and about 130,000 are general dentists.

The per patient cost for average GP is about $500, for average specialist it's about $1,200. Again, "average" holds true for this comparison.

But when it comes to the "top tier" of each group, general dentists > OMFS income by mile.

If you consider yourself an "average" dentist, then you will make less than the "average" OMFS. If not, you will make more than OMFS.
We can only speculate on percents, but I'd say you have to be quite above "average" to make as much as an average omfs. Not even counting omfs who are above "average" omfs's.
 
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The bell-curve for GPs is much wider, so that's the basics of the whole debate. It's just obvious statistics.
Was just trying to add to your statement of "if you're an average dentist you will make less than an average omfs but if not average you will do better". You have to do a hell of a lot better as a general dentist to exceed the income of an omfs (if we follow the ADA's average of OMFS at 460k but again I think you stated that ADA is usually an underestimate due to dentists paying themselves their own salary or not replying to it). ADA is unreliable as you've said in the past, but it's the one that gives the highest average/quartile income of dentists.

You would agree to exceed the 460 of an omfs you would either have to have an insanely successful practice or strategically buy a bunch of others and not have them fail correct? These are such bigger ifs than private practice OMFS (not even including corporate or traveling omfs).

But again both dentists and omfs are doing well out there. My apprehension of gd comes more from what I read about the future than it does from an absolute income number (seeing as you won't be poor on 160+ for <40 hr weeks as an average or below average mid career dentist).
 
Was just trying to add to your statement of "if you're an average dentist you will make less than an average omfs but if not average you will do better". You have to do a hell of a lot better as a general dentist to exceed the income of an omfs (if we follow the ADA's average of OMFS at 460k but again I think you stated that ADA is usually an underestimate due to dentists paying themselves their own salary or not replying to it). ADA is unreliable as you've said in the past, but it's the one that gives the highest average/quartile income of dentists.
Yes, you have to do lot better as a GP to climb in the high income ranks.

I view OMFS more in line with medical specialist income, as oppose to general dentistry income.

I have a younger brother who is doing a cardio-anesthesiology fellowship now, and he is getting offers for $500k base income. He went to school as long as 6 years oral surgeons to get there, and if he becomes a partner with a group of his peers, he will not exceed $700-800k income. The same is true for Oral Surgeons, they heavily rely on being a solo or partner in private practice, however, almost all OMFS won't ever be able to run 5+ practices like a GP could. That's where GP's potential income dwarfs the OMFS doctors income, but on an apple to apple scale, OMFS make more. GPs can switch to orange if they choose, and as you said will have to work for

How many GPs are running multiple clinics (5+), probably far more than ADA or anyone's guess. Ever been to a national dental conference, and run into one of these GP doctors and his fleet of staff? I did.

Look up Scott Leune of the Breakway seminars. He coaches GP's to be in the top 1%.
Breakaway Practice Dental Seminars | Dentist Marketing, Support Services
 
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Yes, you have to do lot better as a GP to climb in the high income ranks.

I view OMFS more in line with medical specialist income, as oppose to general dentistry income.

I have a younger brother who is doing a cardio-anesthesiology fellowship now, and he is getting offers for $500k base income. He went to school as long as 6 years oral surgeons to get there, and if he becomes a partner with a group of his peers, he will not exceed $700-800k income. The same is true for Oral Surgeons, they heavily rely on being a solo or partner in private practice, however, almost all OMFS won't ever be able to run 5+ practices like a GP could. That's where GP's potential income dwarfs the OMFS doctors income, but on an apple to apple scale, OMFS make more. GPs can switch to orange if they choose, and as you said will have to work for

How many GPs are running multiple clinics (5+), probably far more than ADA or anyone's guess. Ever been to a national dental conference, and run into one of these GP doctors and his fleet of staff? I did.

Look up Scott Leune of the Breakway seminars. He coaches GP's to be in the top 1%.
Breakaway Practice Dental Seminars | Dentist Marketing, Support Services
Yea you're right I agree there are gp's out there killing it. I like how omfs is in line with medical specialist income but with a superior lifestyle by far. Derm averages 390k and has 40 hr weeks so omfs even beats that (with fewer hours as of now). Would you say the extra offices added lots of stress though? Once read on this forum that some dentists open an extra office but find they spread themselves thin and/or their additional offices aren't as successful as expected. Also a speaker came to our predent society a year or 2 back saying corporate will grow bigger and bigger and single private practice docs won't be as common in the future (and since I'm an entering D1, that's definitely not a good thing to hear). Also you don't need to get specific, but do you live in a pretty rural area or not?
 
Yea you're right I agree there are gp's out there killing it. I like how omfs is in line with medical specialist income but with a superior lifestyle by far. Derm averages 390k and has 40 hr weeks so omfs even beats that (with fewer hours as of now). Would you say the extra offices added lots of stress though? Once read on this forum that some dentists open an extra office but find they spread themselves thin and/or their additional offices aren't as successful as expected. Also a speaker came to our predent society a year or 2 back saying corporate will grow bigger and bigger and single private practice docs won't be as common in the future (and since I'm an entering D1, that's definitely not a good thing to hear). Also you don't need to get specific, but do you live in a pretty rural area or not?
My MD specialist brother will work 55 hours a week to make that income, but he was in school for a very very long long time just as OMFS. Plus his residency hours were insane like OMFS.

I live in 2 million people sized city, so by no means it's not rural.

I did 3 practices, and franchised 2. I was well aware of making myself thin, but I had a plan to get around that issue (including getting into real estate). A GP can work and make themselves thin for a short period and let others manage his or her offices.

Corporate dentistry is like global warming. Many dentists believe that the profession is doomed and they will take over, others are not worried and will open an office across the street from a corporate office. Time will tell, and when it does, it will be either too late or a somewhat a hoax!
 
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My MD specialist brother will work 55 hours a week to make that income, but he was in school for a very very long long time just as OMFS. Plus his residency hours were insane like OMFS.

I live in 2 million people sized city, so by no means it's not rural.

I did 3 practices, and franchised 2. I was well aware of making myself thin, but I had a plan to get around that issue (including getting into real estate). A GP can work and make themselves thin for a short period and let others manage his or her offices.

Corporate dentistry is like global warming. Many dentists believe that the profession is doomed and they will take over, others are not worried and will open an office across the street from a corporate office. Time will tell, and when it does, it will be either too late or a somewhat a hoax!
Were your practices all close to one another? I'm curious on how the commute works and all that
 
Were your practices all close to one another? I'm curious on how the commute works and all that
5 miles apart from each other. Highly dense areas, 50,000-200,000 residents within 5 miles radius for each. Traffic is heavy, so patients are not willing to commute beyond 5 miles from their homes/where they shop.

The commute for me and the staff were fine, but being close to the patients and their activity centers was the goal. Traditionally, older dentists opened practices in what worked best for the dentist (and their staff), so they were destination offices. I did the opposite, retail centers on high traffic streets.
 
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Comparing omfs income with these cooperate owners is meaningless. Only comparing their salaries is meaningful. These big name GPs invested their earnings into more and more practices gradually. While omfs invested their earnings into other things like real estate, stock, becoming entrepreneurs. Who earns more is depend on how much money they invested, and who has better business sense.


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I tend to agree. Apples to Apples an OMFS will far out earn a GP. Nothing is stopping an OMFS from also developing his own OMFS branches or investing.

If money and a safety net are your thing Medlin2017, then I would be a an OMFS. I already see a swarm of Brazilian and Indian dentists who are coming here in droves and will work for less. If dental corps continue taking over (I believe they're at 30-40% of all offices now), you an still work for a corp and be paid handsomely for it and not worry about managing a business.
 
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Comparing omfs income with these cooperate owners is meaningless. Only comparing their salaries is meaningful. These big name GPs invested their earnings into more and more practices gradually. While omfs invested their earnings into other things like real estate, stock, becoming entrepreneurs. Who earns more is depend on how much money they invested, and who has better business sense.


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Many GPs own large group practices, in fact there are GPs who work in heavy hygiene recall practices and do a lot of speciality procedures in house (I don't refer our endo and refer only 5-10% of 3rd molar cases) and make much more than any specialist.

Yes, successful dentists invested their earnings into more offices, and as a result consolidated much of their office expenses to lower overhead for each offices (i.e. 1 supplies account, 1 accountant, 1 payroll account, 1 office cleaner, and so on).

OMFS are NOT the only dentists investing in real estate, stocks, and being entrepreneurs. Anyone who makes ton of money (dentist or not) invests in markets and tangible assets, or they should fire their accountant.

It is true your clinical skills alone won't get you to be in the top high income brackets, you need to be good at how you position yourself and capitalize on the dental service market with your set of clinical skills. The big name GPs are businessmen more than dentists, so if we are just comparing GP business(wo)man to OMFS business(wo)man, knowing 80% of the market are GP related services, it's common sense to see who would have the potential to earn more.

Many GPs don't understand their income
potential, and are not business savvy, so they just want that 9-5 job and go home and enjoy life. On the other hand, a business minded GP can climb up in income fairly quickly if he or she identifies their markets, while it would take a specialist slower pace to be established than a GP and eventually have a unique set of limitations (maybe not going beyond 1-3 offices) than a GP.

Most of the people commenting on this debate are students, and don't have real word business experience in dentistry, yet!. I have been there, and I was wrong about a lot things I thought I knew as a student vs. practitioner vs. businessman.

One should enjoy doing what they love doing, GP or OMFS, or how to make a lot of money. You could be an electrician or plumber and start a business and make a lot of money if you have better business skills than a dentist. It's lot harder, but it can be done. No one said becoming a dentist or OMFS was easy either.
 
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Ivy dents and some toptier state dental schools are tougher than low tier MD or Established DO schools(pcom, msu). But they are never tougher than midtier med schools or above. 25 on DAT is roughly equivalent to 31 on old MCAT.
[/QUOTE]

Aren't DO schools much more lenient on retake for classes then Dental schools?
 
Ivy dents and some toptier state dental schools are tougher than low tier MD or Established DO schools(pcom, msu). But they are never tougher than midtier med schools or above. 25 on DAT is roughly equivalent to 31 on old MCAT.

Aren't DO schools much more lenient on retake for classes then Dental schools?[/QUOTE]

They've canceled grade forgiveness policy this year.
 
This may be true, but it on average an OMFS will usually beat a GP.



I did not find a GPR to be an attractive option. I had 300k of debt (Counting interest) from my instate school that I had to pay back. My gf had just gotten a job making 120k, and I wanted to join the work force. She also had half my debt and comparing the numbers just made me want to vomit. I also did not have the grades to really specialize. I was a middle of the pack student who didn't do much outside of school. I would not recommend a GPR unless you want to specialize and just need a boost. You will quickly pick up speed and comfort in procedures as the DMOs/CORPs will push you to produce and do a variety of procedure. It will be obvious to you what you will refer out, and what you will want to keep in house.

As for the student who wants to retire by 35, good luck buddy.

Retiring by 35 is realistic if you start at around 25/26. That's already 10 years of working as a dentist.
 
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