should I just give up??

[Dsmoody23]

Now the easy part...

Getting the A's.

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[DaniFanny]

Wow, thats a big course load! I hope it all works out for you, how's it going so far? I loved ochem and tutored it during my undergrad. I found it was so helpful in my more difficult classes to get a really good study group (which can be difficult to come by), and talk through everything and quiz each other. Helping someone else to learn the material helped me learn it too. Happy studying

 

[LetItSnow]

I just recieved an F in organic chemistry I and a D in molecular genetics... it was a difficult semester I am not going to lie... and I will need to retake these classes... and I will be retaking Ochem in spring... but molecular genetics I have to wait till summer...

What you should do is very clear: First, you should decide not to give up (if you really want into veterinary medicine). Second, you should do whatever it takes to start improving your grades. Change your study habits? Start some study groups? Meet with an academic counselor? Talk to a teacher?

Let me give you some perspective. I was thrown out of school twice when I was in my first go-around (19, 20, whatever). My GPA coming out of that experience was 1.7 or 1.8 or ... I don't remember now. It was bad.

Now I'm applying at the U of MN, have an interview, and have 4.0 GPAs for both of the two GPAs that UMN calculates.

Sure, you don't want to wait until you're my age to go back to school and whatnot, but my point is that you can take a bad situation and turn it around (in fact, that's one of the more common behavioral interview questions).

So don't despair about yesterday; just work on changing tomorrow.

 

[VetDoctor]

PerkyPup, here's my advice. Briefly, all is not lost. But it will take some work. The following also largely applies to most others trying to get into vet school, particularly if you're hoping to de-emphasize certain parts of your application (e.g. undergrad grades).

First thing, your goal now is to make a good story of your life, one that you can explain in your future application essays. For example, you'll have to talk about how you made silly mistakes in the past, but you learned a lot about life, maturity, dedication, blah, blah, blah.

Second, you probably need to start thinking about a long-term plan. In other words, I strongly suggest thinking about getting a master's degree in a hard science after undergrad. By doing this you can wipe away a lot of your undergrad career...in fact, this part of your life won't matter much after a few years. Get your master's degree from a reputable place (not unknown online places, if possible). And do really, really well there. This is what I did, actually. I didn't do too hot either in undergrad but I got an online graduate degree from Johns Hopkins (http://advanced.jhu.edu/), and this really impressed every admission's committee. You don't have to have great grades to get into these distance programs, and many great schools have them. It'll cost you about 20K (nothing after vet loans!) and will take a couple years, but it may be worth it to you. I strongly believe this will be a successful approach for you, given your concerns that your undergrad career isn't in good shape. Only about 10% of an incoming (accepted) class will have advanced degrees, so this will set you apart.

Third, get involved in a research lab, and for the love of pete, get your name on some research papers! As many papers as you can, which means finding a very productive lab that rapidly churns out papers. I can't adequately express the importance of this. If you do this you'll have a huge advantage in your vet school applications. It'll take you working in a lab, but don't just get stuck washing dishes. Find a lab where you can actually help with the research, which will get your name on papers. You may actually find that you like research through this process, and the veterinary profession needs researchers (BTW, admission's committees love people interested in becoming a research vet).

Fourth, ace your GRE. Don't settle for 1100 (which by all accounts is a good score, but perhaps not good enough to overshadow low grades). Get a 1400 or better. This is entirely possible for anyone if you put your mind to it. After all, the GRE is mostly memorizing vocabulary and learning a few basic math tricks; you can do this! Start working on it now and you'll get it. You need to have a steady and dedicated approach to the GRE. Start working on vocab now (doing well on the verbal section will help you stand out comparatively). There's no secrete to the GRE; it just takes time and practice. For vocab, try the free website http://wordsmith.org/awad/ to start and also pick up some books (get more advanced books, not just the simple ones).

You may not have to do everything I suggested above, but I virtually guarantee it will get you into vet school. To review, 1. turn your life into a great story of personal transformation, 2. get a graduate degree (master's degree in the biosciences), 3. do biological research in a lab and publish, 4. ace the GRE. Shadowing vets is important too, but this is assumed of everyone, and I don't think it's as important as people talk about (I shadowed for 8 hours before applying to vet school). You can do these things. It just takes dedication and time (~2-3 years after undergrad, which is nothing in the grand scheme). If you have the dedication, then you'll absolutely find your way into vet school. For what it's worth, I followed the above plan and got into 11 vet schools. I didn't have the grades to get in right away, but so be it. Now I'm the top student in my vet class with one year until graduation, so I promise you can achieve your goals if you are dedicated to righting the ship.

The animals need you, and it sounds like you need the animals too. Best of luck to you.

 

[LetItSnow]

Shadowing vets is important too, but this is assumed of everyone, and I don't think it's as important as people talk about (I shadowed for 8 hours before applying to vet school)

I think it's more likely that it's contextual. It's probably not correct to say shadowing is important OR unimportant, all by itself.

I would guess you need to show strength HERE to cover a weakness THERE. If you've got an amazing story of numerous research papers, and your personal statement somehow indicates that your goal is to pursue research, then sure, shadowing isn't going to need to be a big part. If you aren't as interested in research, then you darn well better have some other area that you can show you've put time into.

After I didn't get in last year (my goal is companion animal), I met with an admissions director. She pointed out a number of ways to improve my application, but over and over she kept coming back to "Get more experience. Shadow every minute you can."

 

[sumstorm]

Out of curiosity, VetDoctor, where are you attending?

If you only had 8 hours of vet experience, your app wouldn't have been reviewed at several schools. NCSU requires a minimum of 400 hours, with a preference for at least 3 areas of vet med.

The point of shadowing isn't just to gain experience with the skills sets needed by a vet; it is to develope a genuine understanding of the profession, good and bad. In a profession that has some of the highest suicide rates, we should all make sure we are able to face and deal with the worst aspects of the profession before expending a lot of time, energy, and money to obtain a DVM. There are folks who are more than smart and able enough to be DVMs, but got in it for the wrong reasons, or didn't examine at the parts they disliked, or just ignored reality. I know a vet who LOVED every minute of vet school, but hates being a vet. She loved learning but putting knowledge into action isn't something she enjoys and the owners drive her nuts. She spends most days angry at her clients and resentful of her debt. I know others that just never imagined that money could ever really prevent them from taking proper care of an animal in distress, or that the hours can be so incredibly long that it impacts thier marriages/families.

I personally think that even if you don't have to get a lot of shadowing experience for a particular school, it is wise for you to do so for your own future equilibrium. This isn't a career that you want to be 'suprised' by negative aspects after graduation (with debt)...and a lot of folks head into vet med because they really like some key features, without considering the negaties...or because it has been the dream since childhood.

 

[spicykimchi]

Out of curiosity, VetDoctor, where are you attending?

If you only had 8 hours of vet experience, your app wouldn't have been reviewed at several schools. NCSU requires a minimum of 400 hours, with a preference for at least 3 areas of vet med.

The point of shadowing isn't just to gain experience with the skills sets needed by a vet; it is to develope a genuine understanding of the profession, good and bad. In a profession that has some of the highest suicide rates, we should all make sure we are able to face and deal with the worst aspects of the profession before expending a lot of time, energy, and money to obtain a DVM. There are folks who are more than smart and able enough to be DVMs, but got in it for the wrong reasons, or didn't examine at the parts they disliked, or just ignored reality. I know a vet who LOVED every minute of vet school, but hates being a vet. She loved learning but putting knowledge into action isn't something she enjoys and the owners drive her nuts. She spends most days angry at her clients and resentful of her debt. I know others that just never imagined that money could ever really prevent them from taking proper care of an animal in distress, or that the hours can be so incredibly long that it impacts thier marriages/families.

I personally think that even if you don't have to get a lot of shadowing experience for a particular school, it is wise for you to do so for your own future equilibrium. This isn't a career that you want to be 'suprised' by negative aspects after graduation (with debt)...and a lot of folks head into vet med because they really like some key features, without considering the negaties...or because it has been the dream since childhood.

Whoa, whoa, suicide rates? Vets have high suicide rates? Where did you hear this?

 

[Coquette22]

Whoa, whoa, suicide rates? Vets have high suicide rates? Where did you hear this?

Depression and Suicide Rates High Among Veterinarians

It's a British study, but it's not hard to imagine that vet med can be a very emotionally taxing profession (euthanasia, animal abuse, etc).

 

[spicykimchi]

I'm surprised yet...not surprised....considering the emotional/mental/physical torture vets go through just to become a vets not to mention how the actual job must feel like.

I always thought what vets go through was emotionally/mentally unhealthy but I never knew it drove some to take their own lives.

So sad.

 

[VetDoctor]

Sumstorm, without mentioning the exact school I'm at, it's in the upper midwest (Big 10). Good point about the requirements at NCSU; I specifically didn't apply there for just that reason (and to get out of the triangle for a change). I called and asked them if it was really a big deal regarding shadowing hours and they said it was. However, I called a few other schools and it turned out not to be a hard requirement. Many of these "requirements" are loose. For instance, I took the GRE a month after the deadline for my current school...they didn't mind. Some schools say they require interviews on campus...I cancelled interviews after a while and got in to several anyway. These are just normal people making decisions...they're often not as finicky as the requirements suggest, which is something I found out afterwards. But they most definitely are looking for unique applications, so I urge people to really consider what I suggested previously, particularly if you're having a tough time getting in or need to de-emphasize poor undergrad grades.

And Sumstorm, those are very wise comments regarding one of the purposes of shadowing. For what it's worth, I knew I wanted to be a vet so I didn't need to shadow to make my decision, but in general, making sure it's what you want to do is a very good reason to put in your shadowing hours. However, after you accumulate sufficient experience to know if it's what you want to do, spend the rest of your time making yourself look unique. Shadowing 2000 versus 3000 hours isn't going to make a slightest difference to the admissions committees. Use that time instead to prepare like a fiend for the GRE or get involved in research. And doing research is not simply to become a researcher in a secluded lab; it will make you a better clinician. This is why it's very attractive to admissions committees. Many of these people are proud research veterinarians and truly understand the benefits of research experience. I can't emphasize this enough: make yourself look unique! Get your shadowing hours in, but don't do that to the exclusion of other things that would greatly bolster your applications because it sets you aside from the masses of applications (my current school had 1100 applications this year--can you imagine how the evaluators' eyes must glaze over from reading the same application over and over again?) Research. GRE. Grad degree (this last one is primarily for those hoping to overshadow poor early grades, but it's very effective for anyone; get A's, all A's in the grad program if possible). If you just can't get into vet school or don't think you have a shot because of poor grades really think about this plan: 2-3 years of working in a research lab during the day and getting your grad degree at night/weekends via online programs, like the one I mentioned previously. In the meantime, and throughout the 2-3 years, prepare diligently for the GRE by learning every vocab word you can. This plan takes a lot of time and money, but I strongly believe in it if you're absolutely determined to get into vet school. Another couple years of solely shadowing won't make nearly the difference in your applications because it doesn't compensate for poor grades and it doesn't set you apart from the masses. However, follow whatever path you decide is best; this is solely my advice. I just really believe in it because it worked so surprisingly well for me (I was told by my vet advisor that I wouldn't get into vet school on my first attempt because of my lack of shadowing and apparent lack of direction, but despite her I knew that I could actually make this happen if I made myself unique to admissions committees, and 11/13 successful applications bolsters my belief that this should be a critical aim in your applications). But again, please also consider the well-reasoned advice of others here.

Regarding the suicide issue, it's probably multifactorial. Yes, the vet business can be very depressing at times, and it's important to be cognizant of dangerous thought patterns. There are also always the general (non-veterinary) vicissitudes of life that can lead to depression as well. The unique thing about veterinary medicine is that you have the possession and knowledge of lethal drugs. Although many people become clinically depressed at some point in their lives, vets are relatively unique in having a dangerous armamentarium at their fingertips, which can lead to very unfortunate consequences.

 

[sumstorm]

I'm going to disagree with VetDoctor with the caveat that it will depend on your school and your own profile.

I do know folks who had better GPA's and more extensive research than I do that did not get in. And an attitude of playing fast and lose with the requirements can just as easily have you ruled out as boost your admissions. There is SOME level of arrogance to the concept of 'I know I want to be a vet' and assuming that means nothing could ever change that, or that you really know what that means if you haven't explored it and/or don't have enough life experience to really know what all you can deal with (and some folks have that much life experience by their early teens, and others never gain it in thier entire life.) I know quite a few folks who wanted to be vets....until they graduated and were in the work force for a couple of years...or even a decade.

I agree that you need to be a unique candidate and that for some folks an MS might help, but in other situations, it will not be highly considered (and may not be considered with GPA.) That will vary a lot from school to school and personal situation. And there are other ways to make yourself a unique applicant.

Also, what works for me, or VetDoctor, or any other applicant may not work for you. Ad comms changes, socio-political pressures change, group dynamics change, priorities change. You have to find the right path for you, give it your best, and put it out there with confidence. All any of us can do is find our best path, and put our best effort in.

BTW- what's with the fear of sharing location/school?

 

[sumstorm]

The unique thing about veterinary medicine is that you have the possession and knowledge of lethal drugs. Although many people become clinically depressed at some point in their lives, vets are relatively unique in having a dangerous armamentarium at their fingertips, which can lead to very unfortunate consequences.

Really? My husband is ex military; we have lots of firearms....pretty sure they would work for suicide. If it is just access to lethal drugs, doctors, nurses, dentists, EMTs, researchers with access, etc should have similar rates.

I am not suggesting there is a single component issue, but it certainly isn't just access to materials to commit suicide with. I don't think it is just the depressing components of vet med..... it may be the comprehension that euthanaisa is acceptable for our beloved creatures, or the realization that student debt eats away more than one imagined, or lack of oppurtunities to improve one's career situation without internship/residency (which worsens one's fiscal situation and may not be viable these days), or it may be dealing with the things that aren't generally trained in vet education like handling violent or manipulative clients...... As you said, multifactorial.

 

[LMMS]

Hiya. Although you propose some wonderful advice to folks, I'm sorry to say that it won't help everyone. Not to poo-poo you, because it's obvious that it worked for you. But, as someone who did not gain acceptance I would like to share some 'stats' about myself in regard to your fail safe plain. Also, I would like to share my 'two cents' on your 'use research to get into school' plan...

First thing, your goal now is to make a good story of your life, one that you can explain in your future application essays. For example, you'll have to talk about how you made silly mistakes in the past, but you learned a lot about life, maturity, dedication, blah, blah, blah.

I've been told that my 'story' reads like a good novel. Phoenix rising from the ashes, the whole nine yards. I actually had one ad com person tell me that my 'explanation section' on VMCAS brought tears to his eyes when I did an app review last cycle.

Second, you probably need to start thinking about a long-term plan. In other words, I strongly suggest thinking about getting a master's degree in a hard science after undergrad. By doing this you can wipe away a lot of your undergrad career...in fact, this part of your life won't matter much after a few years. Get your master's degree from a reputable place (not unknown online places, if possible). And do really, really well there. This is what I did, actually. I didn't do too hot either in undergrad but I got an online graduate degree from Johns Hopkins (http://advanced.jhu.edu/), and this really impressed every admission's committee. You don't have to have great grades to get into these distance programs, and many great schools have them. It'll cost you about 20K (nothing after vet loans!) and will take a couple years, but it may be worth it to you. I strongly believe this will be a successful approach for you, given your concerns that your undergrad career isn't in good shape. Only about 10% of an incoming (accepted) class will have advanced degrees, so this will set you apart.

Have a masters... Thesis based, known school, 3.8 GPA. I went to classroom classes, performed four biomedical research projects, had a departmental assistanceship which paid for my full tuition, 'won' a kick ass internship, TA'ed, and worked a part time job.

Third, get involved in a research lab, and for the love of pete, get your name on some research papers! As many papers as you can, which means finding a very productive lab that rapidly churns out papers. I can't adequately express the importance of this. If you do this you'll have a huge advantage in your vet school applications. It'll take you working in a lab, but don't just get stuck washing dishes. Find a lab where you can actually help with the research, which will get your name on papers. You may actually find that you like research through this process, and the veterinary profession needs researchers (BTW, admission's committees love people interested in becoming a research vet).

Done. Have 12 peer reviewed publications - 6 of which I am first or second author. I've designed projects, been in charge of the research, wrote grants, cared for the critters, and managed labs. My first goal was lab animal medicine, but I have since moved forward to public health after working in government veterinary medicine for a while. Do tell - are you planning on going into LAM?

Fourth, ace your GRE. Don't settle for 1100 (which by all accounts is a good score, but perhaps not good enough to overshadow low grades). Get a 1400 or better. This is entirely possible for anyone if you put your mind to it. After all, the GRE is mostly memorizing vocabulary and learning a few basic math tricks; you can do this! Start working on it now and you'll get it. You need to have a steady and dedicated approach to the GRE. Start working on vocab now (doing well on the verbal section will help you stand out comparatively). There's no secrete to the GRE; it just takes time and practice. For vocab, try the free website http://wordsmith.org/awad/ to start and also pick up some books (get more advanced books, not just the simple ones).

OK, you've got me here. I have a measly 1140.

You may not have to do everything I suggested above, but I virtually guarantee it will get you into vet school. To review, 1. turn your life into a great story of personal transformation, 2. get a graduate degree (master's degree in the biosciences), 3. do biological research in a lab and publish, 4. ace the GRE.

So, with this, I may assume that my GRE is what kept me out?

Shadowing vets is important too, but this is assumed of everyone, and I don't think it's as important as people talk about (I shadowed for 8 hours before applying to vet school).

Perhaps that was my problem. I've done too much!! I've shadowed for over 100 hours and have had paid veterinary based jobs totaling more than 20,000 hours over the past 10 years.

You can do these things. It just takes dedication and time (~2-3 years after undergrad, which is nothing in the grand scheme). If you have the dedication, then you'll absolutely find your way into vet school. For what it's worth, I followed the above plan and got into 11 vet schools. I didn't have the grades to get in right away, but so be it. Now I'm the top student in my vet class with one year until graduation, so I promise you can achieve your goals if you are dedicated to righting the ship.

The animals need you, and it sounds like you need the animals too. Best of luck to you.

11 schools? Top of the class? I'm impressed to say the least. So, the 'research plan' worked for you. However, I just want folks to know it won't work for everyone before they go diving into something they may not want to be involved in...

I've personally worked with (and supervised) people like this - used the lab as a jumping platform to get into either medical or veterinary school even though they had zero desire to be in the research world. Granted, some of them were fabulous and I am very proud to have been a part of their training. However, sadly, a majority were a pain in my ass... They whined way too much about 'needing this and needing that' for school, spent more time on their personal lives than the research during work hours, and left after a year (or less in some cases) because they reached their goal. NONE of these people will work in research because it's not what they want to do. I would much rather people go into research because they WANT to, not because they think it will help them to reach a goal.

 

[VetDoctor]

LMMS, sound advice. I'm stunned you didn't get in from what you're saying...I absolutely think you'll get in on this round. Anyway, you sound like a very dedicated person, which is what you need to be in vet school and your later career. Sorry your experiences with student researchers have been largely negative; fortunately these were not my experiences as a researcher/grad student at Hopkins. Those benefits of the features I mentioned previously (GRE, research, grad degree) were echoed back to me by admissions committee members after I got to know them on a personal level during vet school. I was also told similar things from Colorado State, Atlantic, Tufts, Virginia Tech, Michigan State, and various others following admission. Clearly, nothing works 100% of the time for every person, so please don't take my recommendations as an absolute fail safe approach; I didn't intend to overstate my case. This strategy worked very well for me, but I strongly encourage everyone to do what they think is best. If nothing else, wholeheartedly commit yourself to the GRE. This test really can be learned and mastered. I went from 1100 to 1550, so it's definitely possible to improve your scores. I sure didn't get any smarter (quite the opposite if you ask my fiancee), but I worked hard at preparing for it (vocab, vocab, vocab, every chance you get). Good luck to everyone in your preparation and applications.

 

[light10]

I think one X-factor we don't talk about very often on SDN (at least not as often as the stats ) that can have a HUGE influence are the letters of recomendation. I've been involved a bit with graduate school admissions and a good letter can go a long way, and nothing gets you tossed faster than a bad/mediocre letter. You want to find letter writers that want you to become a vet as badly as you do! Which means you need to stand out somewhat in your experience - whether academic, animal or veterinary - so your letter writers have something to say about you. It also helps if your recommenders really know you - so try to develop some depth at particular experiences, and keep in touch when you move on if possible. Although I'd add the caveat that it's best to be 100% *you* in all your experience, usually people can tell if you're sucking up/trying to get a good LOR .

(not saying at all this is what dragged you down LMMS - from everything we know on SDN, you're a lovely person and a hard worker - just speaking generally)

 

[Cautionary Tail]

Really? My husband is ex military; we have lots of firearms....pretty sure they would work for suicide. If it is just access to lethal drugs, doctors, nurses, dentists, EMTs, researchers with access, etc should have similar rates.

I am not suggesting there is a single component issue, but it certainly isn't just access to materials to commit suicide with. I don't think it is just the depressing components of vet med..... it may be the comprehension that euthanaisa is acceptable for our beloved creatures, or the realization that student debt eats away more than one imagined, or lack of oppurtunities to improve one's career situation without internship/residency (which worsens one's fiscal situation and may not be viable these days), or it may be dealing with the things that aren't generally trained in vet education like handling violent or manipulative clients...... As you said, multifactorial.

I wonder how much of it is a temperamental thing. I've seen veterinarians take it very personally when things (that they had absolutely no control over) have gone wrong. Veterinary medicine has got to be an extraordinarily taxing profession for anyone with that sort of constitution.

Total conjecture on my part, but I would imagine that (given the manner in which future veterinarians are selected by the adcoms) there is likely an overrepresentation of high-achievers with a tendency towards perfectionism in the profession.

Additionally, does veterinary medicine perhaps have a tendency to attract individuals who may be less likely either to have or to utilize human support systems? I would be lying if I said that my reverence for the human-animal bond wasn't, in some way, initially fostered by the fact that I was a shy, awkward, disconcertingly (by the standards of the relatively conservative community in which I was raised) tomboyish kid with funny interests who preferred the company of adults and had little in common with the majority of my peers. As I've gotten older, I've found that many of the attributes that worked against me at thirteen now work to my advantage. And I actually really enjoy working with people. But I couldn't tell you how many aspiring veterinarians I've encountered that have expressed great concern about having to deal with clients... or how many clinicians I've worked with that clearly have issues in the relating-to-people department. I also wonder (based on my own experiences) if those who practice solo may be more prone to dissatisfaction and job-related stress than veterinarians working in group practices.

I'm sure that access to lethal methods, an intimate knowledge of how to use them, and desensitization to the process probably do play a role in some cases... but there are clearly other factors at play, too. I'm glad to see that the powers-that-be seem to be taking notice.

ETA- Not sure about all the professions listed above, but I do know that both dentists and chemists have notoriously high suicide rates. Two of the three individuals I know who have taken their lives were accomplished research chemists. Both utilized the same agent, and both obtained it at work.

 

[LMMS]

LMMS, sound advice. I'm stunned you didn't get in from what you're saying...I absolutely think you'll get in on this round.

Although very kind of you to say, it didn't work out for me this go round. But, so be it. Life will continue to move forward.

Sorry your experiences with student researchers have been largely negative; fortunately these were not my experiences as a researcher/grad student at Hopkins.

I'm delighted to hear this wasn't the case for you. I've worked with some EXCELLENT undergraduate research assistants as well as some 'freshly graduated' assistants. Those who truly want to find out more about the research world and have an interest in what's going on in the labs are always welcome. However, after coming off yet another week of training some new 'wanna be' doctors (three of which openly admitted to me during their training that they 'hated' being in the lab, but 'needed' the experience for applications in the fall) I had a somewhat bitter taste in my mouth. I have always been open to new faces in the lab because I think that everyone who has an interest should be given the opportunity to see if it's for them. If in the end they end up finding it's not for them, that's cool; but at least they gave it a shot and put in some effort. It's the ones that come in like they're being led to the gallows... They hear from this person or that person that 'research will make all the difference'; so they do it even though they can't stand the thought. Makes it rough on both sides of the equation to say the least.

Those benefits of the features I mentioned previously (GRE, research, grad degree) were echoed back to me by admissions committee members after I got to know them on a personal level during vet school. I was also told similar things from Colorado State, Atlantic, Tufts, Virginia Tech, Michigan State, and various others following admission. Clearly, nothing works 100% of the time for every person, so please don't take my recommendations as an absolute fail safe approach; I didn't intend to overstate my case. This strategy worked very well for me, but I strongly encourage everyone to do what they think is best. If nothing else, wholeheartedly commit yourself to the GRE. This test really can be learned and mastered. I went from 1100 to 1550, so it's definitely possible to improve your scores. I sure didn't get any smarter (quite the opposite if you ask my fiancee), but I worked hard at preparing for it (vocab, vocab, vocab, every chance you get). Good luck to everyone in your preparation and applications.

Oh yes, totally agree - I've heard over and over again from folks in the 'know' that research, graduate work, publications, etc... can make all the difference in an application. However, as you mention, not everything works of everyone. Hence why I strongly felt the need to illustrate to some reading this thread that the path that worked so wonderfully for you may not necessarily be the answer.

As we all know, what it comes down to in the end is that everyone just has to find what works best for them. There's a path for everyone out there - sometimes it just takes longer to find for some than others. You, quite fortunately, found your niche at the start. A person you are! I wish you the best.

I think one X-factor we don't talk about very often on SDN (at least not as often as the stats ) that can have a HUGE influence are the letters of recomendation.

(not saying at all this is what dragged you down LMMS - from everything we know on SDN, you're a lovely person and a hard worker - just speaking generally)

Fear not, light10... I'm lucky enough to know that I had wonderful letters written on my behalf. However, I do agree that if someone does have a 'wishy-washy' letter it can make a difference in some cases. I say some because I'm certain there there are a few folks out there who managed to get around it some how.

I tell ya, there's NO rhyme or reason to this process whatsoever. There are days when I truly believe that ad coms sit and play drinking games to determine who's interviewed and/or accepted. Kind of make me feel better about the process.