Should I tell on a "friend" who is going to lie on AMCAS?

[fishieFDR]

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Again, if the evidence is airtight, then have we all not heard of the VA or do we all have the memory of a goldfish? Even if the OP's evidence is not airtight then perhaps it'll be best for him not to say anything. Nonetheless, the attitudes here from future doctors is appalling. I hope you guys don't create the next VA scandal or something with 36 veterans in the ground because you put your job ahead of honesty.

People aren't saying what she's doing is right, they're saying to not rat someone out like 5 year old.

 

[jm192]

Again, if the evidence is airtight, then have we all not heard of the VA or do we all have the memory of a goldfish? Even if the OP's evidence is not airtight then perhaps it'll be best for him not to say anything. Nonetheless, the attitudes here from future doctors is appalling. I hope you guys don't create the next VA scandal or something with 36 veterans in the ground because you put your job ahead of honesty.

No one ever died because someone lied on their AMCAS. There is a process in place to make sure you are competent before you are responsible for lives. Lying on your AMCAS won't get you through Step 1.

And, I think there are just a lot more realists posting than wide eyed save the world types. Of course doctors should be honest. But I'll never believe 100% of applicants are 100% honest on their application.

Is it YOUR job to go and rat out the unhonest ones? Again, God didn't send you to save medicine from the immoral and the unjust. Let the system do what it's supposed to. If she gets in, she still has to pass classes and boards.

And As the guy who is just really white knighting honesty--I'd LOVE a response from you. Have you ever lied? Have you lied more than once? Why is it that a lie about something else is ok, but lying on AMCAS or AACOMAS is somehow sinister?

 

[Teleologist]

No one ever died because someone lied on their AMCAS. There is a process in place to make sure you are competent before you are responsible for lives. Lying on your AMCAS won't get you through Step 1.

What about the people at the VA who allowed those veterans to die? They obviously went through an interview process, they have their superiors, they have their audits, etc.

Plus do you even know what the Step 1 covers? It doesn't cover integrity. It covers factual knowledge. Might be good to know.

Yet they still managed to screw over 36 people. Best thing to learn from this incident for the OP is to just keep in mind that some people aren't honest. Don't necessarily tattle on them immediately because you could be completely wrong, but on the other hand, adopting a position advocated by even a moderator here to just turn the other way isn't the sort of attitude I wish to see in the healthcare system.

Take a nuanced position, not an absolutist stand either way on this and all other issues of integrity, OP, because you're not omniscient.

 

[jm192]

What about the people at the VA who allowed those veterans to die? They obviously went through an interview process, they have their superiors, they have their audits, etc.

Plus do you even know what the Step 1 covers? It doesn't cover integrity. It covers factual knowledge. Might be good to know.

Yet they still managed to screw over 36 people. Best thing to learn from this incident for the OP is to just keep in mind that some people aren't honest. Don't necessarily tattle on them immediately because you could be completely wrong, but on the other hand, adopting a position advocated by even a moderator here to just turn the other way isn't the sort of attitude I wish to see in the healthcare system.

Take a nuanced position, not an absolutist stand on this, OP.

I edited my post, and I want to get a response, so I'm re-writing it.

Have you ever lied? More than once even?

What makes THOSE lies ok. But a lie on AMCAS or AACOMAS is absolutely sinister and makes you a horrible physician. It's all still a lie. But if we put it on application, it goes to a whole new level?

 

[el_duderino]

What about the people at the VA who allowed those veterans to die? They obviously went through an interview process, they have their superiors, they have their audits, etc.

Plus do you even know what the Step 1 covers? It doesn't cover integrity. It covers factual knowledge. Might be good to know.

Yet they still managed to screw over 36 people. Best thing to learn from this incident for the OP is to just keep in mind that some people aren't honest. Don't necessarily tattle on them immediately because you could be completely wrong, but on the other hand, adopting a position advocated by even a moderator here to just turn the other way isn't the sort of attitude I wish to see in the healthcare system.

Take a nuanced position, not an absolutist stand either way on this and all other issues of integrity, OP, because you're not omniscient.

Lying on your AMCAS is wrong. It's very wrong.

However, it's not something worth blowing the whistle about. We're not talking about patient care here. OP needs to, IMO, keep her head down and mind her own business in this instance.

 

[Teleologist]

I edited my post, and I want to get a response, so I'm re-writing it.

Have you ever lied? More than once even?

What makes THOSE lies ok. But a lie on AMCAS or AACOMAS is absolutely sinister and makes you a horrible physician. It's all still a lie. But if we put it on application, it goes to a whole new level?

Sure I have, but please quote me where I said those were "ok."

 

[UlahSnackbar]

I'm leaning towards not ratting now, but like you were saying, it is disturbing that people would be so lax about letting a blatant liar go like this. 36 veterans died and everyone who doesn't want me to rat for reasons like "you're being a tattle tell" are people who will unfortunately in charge of caring for patients in 10 years. I understand the world is not perfect and everybody is not moral, but we should want and strive for a better world than what exists now.

 

[Teleologist]

However, it's not something worth blowing the whistle about. We're not talking about patient care here. OP needs to, IMO, keep her head down and mind her own business in this instance.

This is more along the lines of the point I had in mind than what a multitude of other posters had offered as advice.

 

[Teleologist]

I'm leaning towards not ratting now, but like you were saying, it is disturbing that people would be so lax about letting a blatant liar go like this. 36 veterans died and everyone who doesn't want me to rat for reasons like "you're being a tattle tell" are people who will unfortunately in charge of caring for patients. I understand the world is not perfect and everybody is not moral, but we should want and strive for a better world than what exists now.

Thank you, OP, for understanding my point.

 

[Shams al Deen]

It's interesting where to draw the line on what you should snitch on. Like what if you saw your best friend cheating on a final exam and had proof? I've heard of an MMI question like that, and the "correct" answer is to snitch. Not sure what the "correct" answer for an MMI about a lying AMCAS applicant would be. Like I'd definitely talk to the friend and tell her it was not right, not sure what else though.

 

[Teleologist]

It's interesting where to draw the line on what you should snitch on. Like what if you saw your best friend cheating on a final exam and had proof? I've heard of an MMI question like that, and the "correct" answer is to snitch. Not sure what the "correct" answer for an MMI about a lying AMCAS applicant would be. Like I'd definitely talk to the friend and tell her it was not right, not sure what else though.

Well I'd like to think the OP is drawing the line on the fact he doesn't exactly know what his friend put on the application. It was all word of mouth. Perhaps the friend was insecure and felt the need to inflate her stats to the OP but perhaps she won't on the app.

Happens to me sometimes; sometimes I'll get started on telling something that's not true and I'll just go with the flow because I don't want to start over and explain myself.

 

[jm192]

I'm leaning towards not ratting now, but like you were saying, it is disturbing that people would be so lax about letting a blatant liar go like this. 36 veterans died and everyone who doesn't want me to rat for reasons like "you're being a tattle tell" are people who will unfortunately in charge of caring for patients in 10 years. I understand the world is not perfect and everybody is not moral, but we should want and strive for a better world than what exists now.

You guys are really touting the VA thing. What does that have to do with this. People died because a VA screwed up. What does that have to do with lying on AMCAS. Tens of thousands of liars have gotten through the cracks and haven't had killed anyone.

Hundreds of thousands have been completely honest and HAVE killed people.

Sure I have, but please quote me where I said those were "ok."

I didn't say you said it's ok.

I'm asking you right now.

 

[jm192]

It's interesting where to draw the line on what you should snitch on. Like what if you saw your best friend cheating on a final exam and had proof? I've heard of an MMI question like that, and the "correct" answer is to snitch. Not sure what the "correct" answer for an MMI about a lying AMCAS applicant would be. Like I'd definitely talk to the friend and tell her it was not right, not sure what else though.

I think it's an incredibly easy line to draw.

Is patient care being affected? Yes--you have a moral obligation. You're at fault if you stay quiet.

No--mind your business. If a student cheats on EVERY Path exam and you don't rat---they still have to pass step 1. If they're smart enough to pass step 1, then their knowledge is sufficient to participate in patient care. If they can't, then it isn't.

 

[akaMondo]

Is this chick for real? Someone fudging hospital volunteer hours ---> dead veterans and the state of VA hospitals?

 

[Teleologist]

I didn't say you said it's ok.

I'm asking you right now.

Those instances weren't okay, I've been working on being more honest as of late.

 

[Ismet]

Sure I have, but please quote me where I said those were "ok."

No one in this thread said that what the girl is being accused of doing is okay. No one here thinks it's okay to lie on your application. But it's also not OP's place to rat the girl out.

 

[Teleologist]

I think it's an incredibly easy line to draw.

Is patient care being affected? Yes--you have a moral obligation. You're at fault if you stay quiet.

I agree.

If they're smart enough to pass step 1, then their knowledge is sufficient to participate in patient care. If they can't, then it isn't.

Knowledge is likely sufficient but I'd prefer a doctor with more than just knowledge.

 

[Teleologist]

But it's also not OP's place to rat the girl out.

I agree, but not for some of the reasons I've seen posted in this thread.

 

[UlahSnackbar]

I'm not denying that my "friend" is not capable of studying for step 1 and passing. But the way she lied is completely outrageous. It is a sign of things to come. How do you know this person won't be in a position where they might be at fault and they lie about something? Could you imagine her as a pathologist performing an autopsy incorrectly, and then lying about the cause of death in a murder case to cover her own behind? Where would the justice be for the victim in that case? This is a slippery slope case.

 

[sobored]

OP the only correct way to handle this is to one-up your friend. You really volunteered 100 hours? Add an extra 0. Think of some crazy **** and put it on your app.

 

[NobleGas14]

**** like this is what makes SDN so terrible. How is this remotely close to the VA happenings? Also, why is everyone so defensive about these kinds of things? OP getting flamed hard.

This won't end well.

 

[UlahSnackbar]

OP the only correct way to handle this is to one-up your friend. You really volunteered 100 hours? Add an extra 0. Think of some crazy **** and put it on your app.

lol, riiiiiight

 

[jm192]

I'm not denying that my "friend" is not capable of studying for step 1 and passing. But the way she lied is completely outrageous. It is a sign of things to come. How do you know this person won't be in a position where they might be at fault and they lie about something? Could you imagine her as a pathologist performing an autopsy incorrectly, and then lying about the cause of death in a murder case to cover her own behind? Where would the justice be for the victim in that case? This is a slippery slope case.

Are you such a bad troll that we're now writing CSI episodes where the killer is the pathologist so that people realize you're a troll?

 

[99445]

Bro, you already ratted.

ADCOMS, keep an eye out for:

1)36 MCAT
2)Ecuador experience: building steps, taking care of children for 2 weeks
3) Volunteer position with 500 hours
4) 200 hours of radiology shadowing

I'm sure this info will isolate a very small pool of applicants, if not the one.

 

[Teleologist]

**** like this is what makes SDN so terrible. How is this remotely close to the VA happenings? Also, why is everyone so defensive about these kinds of things? OP getting flamed hard.

This won't end well.

Quote me where I said this was close to the VA happenings, because I brought up the VA.

I brought it up to make the point: don't see the world in black in white. Don't see the world as: tattling = bad and reserved for kindergarteners and dealing with it = being a real man.

One can have a nuanced stand on this. Lying on the app isn't good, but we don't know if the OP's friend actually did.

 

[UlahSnackbar]

Bro, you already ratted.

ADCOMS, keep an eye out for:

1)36 MCAT
2)Ecuador experience: building steps, taking care of children for 2 weeks
3) Volunteer position with 500 hours
4) 200 hours of radiology shadowing

I'm sure this info will isolate a very small pool of applicants, if not the one.

I don't think adcoms have enough time to patrol the pre-med forum of SDN

 

[Ismet]

I don't think adcoms have enough time to patrol the pre-med forum of SDN

You must be new here. 😉

 

[UlahSnackbar]

Are you such a bad troll that we're now writing CSI episodes where the killer is the pathologist so that people realize you're a troll?

No...because I said the pathologist is performing the autopsy, indicating the victim is already dead

 

[99445]

I don't think adcoms have enough time to patrol the pre-med forum of SDN

You never know. More likely is that your "friend" with come across this. Talk about awkward.

 

[jm192]

I agree.

Knowledge is likely sufficient but I'd prefer a doctor with more than just knowledge.

My only point with that statement was that even if you cheat--the system is designed to make you KNOW the material.

Cheating doesn't mean you arent' caring or compassionate or that you have bad bedside manner.

 

[jm192]

No...because I said the pathologist is performing the autopsy, indicating the victim is already dead

Wait, autopsies are only done to dead people?

You said to cover his behind, I took it to mean he was covering his behind since he was the killer.

 

[ciestar]

OP, this scenario would bother me greatly and I, like you would be tempted to "fix it". But ultimately, it really solves nothing so the best thing for you is to let the situation go. She's bound to falter somewhere in an interview when asked about a trip she never took or not being able to draw several examples from her volunteer work. Sure, google works but that could come off as scripted and generic. You tend to put emotion into your life's own experience.

And on that note.
Trust no one. 😉

 

[ciestar]

Wait, autopsies are only done to dead people?

You said to cover his behind, I took it to mean he was covering his behind since he was the killer.

Pretty sure what she meant was that a mistake was made during autopsy on a murder case (perhaps the evidence needed to convict the guy). Said person doesn't own up to it and instead covers her own behind to not face consequences of said mistake

 

[jm192]

Pretty sure what she meant was that a mistake was made during autopsy on a murder case (perhaps the evidence needed to convict the guy). Said person doesn't own up to it and instead covers her own behind to not face consequences of said mistake

Even if, that is the lowest totem pole scenario. First you ask if I'd be honest about a mistake made for a live patient, now you're concerned about justice for a dead patient. And then I'm sure it extends to saving society from the big bad murderer running around on the loose. All because some girl you dislike lied on her AMCAS.

Like, are we serious with that example?

What if the pathologist didn't bother reading the slide, said it was normal cells, and it was in fact cancer? Well Alex, what is that never happens because no one wants to get sued?

 

[Goro]

OP, I concur with my young colleague. Let it go, because your friend is setting up such a large trap for herself that she's going to walk right into it, eyes open, and get crucified at interviewed. Generally, when people have amazing ECs, we ask people about the, Mission trips, because they're so easy to inflate or confabulate about, are particular prompts for interview questions.

If it's absolutely killing you, then chat with her advisor or chair of the pre-med committee (if your school has one) and ask for advice about a "lying friend".

Lol that doesn't happen that easily. That might get the kid an interview, but if they're not cut out for the school, they're not getting in.

One of my classmates interviewed the child of an alumnus/faculty member. Kid was an a** in the interview and got rejected.

 

[infinitessimal]

Why don't you spend this time working on your PS and submitting early instead of wondering whether you should be a rat?

 

[giraffesuptop]

Have you ever heard of being ethical? When you give a patient 10x the dose of medication, are you going to be honest and tell the patient's family it was your fault or are you gonna cover your own behind?

My response exactly to most of the posts in this thread

 

[swolebrah]

Damn how does it feel knowing this girl has more balls then you.

Life aint fair, hopefully she gets caught. However snitches get stitches.

 

[shyfed]

It's interesting where to draw the line on what you should snitch on. Like what if you saw your best friend cheating on a final exam and had proof? I've heard of an MMI question like that, and the "correct" answer is to snitch. Not sure what the "correct" answer for an MMI about a lying AMCAS applicant would be. Like I'd definitely talk to the friend and tell her it was not right, not sure what else though.

I actually spoke to an interviewer (M4 who does one of the interview rounds at his school) who asks that exact same question. He said the textbook "correct answer" is to confront your friend, talk about it, and encourage him to turn himself in. If he doesn't, it is your obligation to report him.

Would anyone here actually report their best friend for cheating? Personally, I would just be concerned that he would be potentially screwed for life if he got caught and let him know this. Considering almost everyone has seen some form of cheating and I'm guessing almost no one has reported it, the question seems rigged. If you give the correct answer, you are probably lying. If you tell the truth, you are giving the "wrong answer."

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

She is blatantly lying and that is inexcusable, you already know that. Inform amcas and the schools she's applying to anonymously, don't fall to the bystander effect as many people are suggesting. Hopefully adcomms will heed your warning and scrutinize her especially hard at interviews, which she will undoubtedly get bc her fabricated app sounds awesome.

For all the people that say she will be exposed at interviews, there are months until the first interviews occur which means months of times that she can practice being a convincing liar. Adcomms need to be warned of her dishonesty AHEAD OF TIME so that they may check up on her contacts or grill her at interview.

BOTTOM LINE: How will you feel if this girl lies her way into med school and manages to matriculate, all while you sat around hoping that karma will magically make everything right? you already know what to do

I'm not denying that my "friend" is not capable of studying for step 1 and passing. But the way she lied is completely outrageous. It is a sign of things to come. How do you know this person won't be in a position where they might be at fault and they lie about something? Could you imagine her as a pathologist performing an autopsy incorrectly, and then lying about the cause of death in a murder case to cover her own behind? Where would the justice be for the victim in that case? This is a slippery slope case.

Are you people serious? You must be living under a rock if you're outraged by this. You should really stop being naive about how much people lie to get ahead in everything. Try to distinguish between everyone saying to "let it go" vs. "it's no big deal." Yes, it's a big deal, but do you go around calling 911 for every shop lifter you see?

I don't think adcoms have enough time to patrol the pre-med forum of SDN

There are some very unfortunate ad com members who get off on patrolling pre-meds and looking up apps. Must be a sad day when you resort to that. (No disrespect or even directed at ad com members who post regularly to help or for fun)

 

[BestDoctorEver]

This is what the process has become... It forces many people to lie... I am going to go out on a limb here... If they scrutinize these AMCAS applications, they probably will find that more than 25% of applicants embellish their ECs.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Are you people serious? You must be living under a rock if you're outraged by this. You should really stop being naive about how much people lie to get ahead in everything. Try to distinguish between everyone saying to "let it go" vs. "it's no big deal." Yes, it's a big deal, but do you go around calling 911 for every shop lifter you see?


There are some very unfortunate ad com members who get off on patrolling pre-meds and looking up apps. Must be a sad day when you resort to that. (No disrespect or even directed at ad com members who post regularly to help or for fun)

What do you make of that distinction?

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

What do you make of that distinction?

I'm not sure what you mean by that question haha

 

[phospholipase]

You can tell on her, and prevent her from doing future mistakes that will hurt people (e.g. patients).
In response to those who say that it will catch up to her: yes, but it might catch up to her after she's done harm.

 

[DrCaliBoy]

You asked to see her AMCAS and then ran to SDN to ask if you should tell on her for lying.

You say YOU don't think she's cut out to be a physician despite her excellent stats. This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the whole lying dilemma. You give the impression that you are already largely biased against this person, found a way to hurt them, and want validation that it is "ok" to do so.

It's really not your place, and quite frankly if I was AMCAS, I'd find you to be whiny.

If she gets into medical school because she lied about volunteering hours, so what? So do countless others. You're delusional if you think she's the first.

But, but, doctors are supposed to be honest, right?! Because no one on SDN ever lied. But if it's somehow related to getting into medical school--THAT is the lie that counts. LOL.

Lastly, YOU thinking she isn't cut out for it is irrelevant. An adcom gets to decide that.

There's a process in place for a reason. If she gets through the process, she's competent. If she doesn't, she's not.

I just find it funny how you are scrutinizing him/her and just blowing off what he/she said because "many others" do it as well. That is definitely not the way to look at this scenario. This is coming from the type of person that doesn't tell on others, but at the same time if someone else decided to I wouldn't call him a tattle tale. Especially if his evidence is true.

 

[jared_the_great]

OP, did you have a conversation with this person about it?

Even a total sociopath can often be convinced to act ethically, if only out of long-term self-interest. Chronic dishonesty tends to catch up eventually, which is why it's a bad idea, even from a selfish perspective.

One would hope that this is the kind of situation where confidential letters of evaluation really serve their purpose. If she's a pathological liar, odds are good that at least one of her evaluators has noticed and might mention it in a letter. Then she'll be one of those top-scorers with amazing EC's who inexplicably can't even seem to get an interview.

 

[V5RED]

I hope that the people calling it "ratting" or saying idiotic things like "snitches get stitches" are being facetious. OP's friend is dong something that is ethically on about the same level as cheating in a large enough number of classes to make a deserved 2.0 into a 4.0. The "friend" is the one being unethical IF OP is being truthful and is aware of all the relevant facts.

Assuming that OP has given us all the relevant facts and the "friend" cannot be dissuaded from lying, if OP could magically make AMCAS aware of and care about the "friend's" dishonesty, one of two end results occur. The "friend" gets replaced by another person who cheated to get into medical school, or the "friend" gets replaced by someone who did not cheat and would otherwise have not gotten into medical school that cycle. In the first case, nothing has changed. In the second case, someone who OP's "friend" had pushed out of medical school gets to go to medical school that cycle.

OP is unlikely to be able to convince medical schools that his "friend" lied, but that doesn't mean it would be wrong to do so. The "friend" took the easy path which makes it very easy to get a high GPA compared to people who are also really doing all the regular ECs. With the ECs that OP is claiming his "friend" really had, even a 37 MCAT and high GPA would be unimpressive and lead to a failed cycle.

There are people who go through multiple cycles and take multiple gap years just to build up the needed ECs for a single yes because they failed to accumulate those ECs while in undergrad and are honest on their applications. This person is making a mockery of those people's efforts to earn an acceptance.

 

[NobleGas14]

Quote me where I said this was close to the VA happenings, because I brought up the VA.

I brought it up to make the point: don't see the world in black in white. Don't see the world as: tattling = bad and reserved for kindergarteners and dealing with it = being a real man.

One can have a nuanced stand on this. Lying on the app isn't good, but we don't know if the OP's friend actually did.

I did not mean you in particular, my bad. I merely meant that this situation is SDN fodder. I digress, OP, do what you think is best. However, don't let yourself be affected negatively

 

[alpinism]

Bro, you already ratted.

ADCOMS, keep an eye out for:

1)36 MCAT
2)Ecuador experience: building steps, taking care of children for 2 weeks
3) Volunteer position with 500 hours
4) 200 hours of radiology shadowing

I'm sure this info will isolate a very small pool of applicants, if not the one.

Heh i'll be sure to write that down

(not srs)

(but srs thats actually pretty specific, not too many 36/Ecuador/Radiology apps out there)

 

[NeuroticTwilightSparkle]

It is also possible that this "friend" has found this thread and changed her application to an honest one or one with different fabrications, in which case you'd really hurt yourself if you reported non-anonymously.

I think that people who are suggesting to just let this girl slide are overestimating the ability of the "system" to catch her at lying. IA's for cheating are an automatic red flag on your record that may set you back for years or outright prevent you from getting because we like the notion of not letting unethical students in, but somehow it seems that having liars is okay, so long as they are good liars. Lastly, I don't think her MCAT/GPA is that impressive, if her real EC's consist only of 30 hours of volunteering.