Should I tell on a "friend" who is going to lie on AMCAS?

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Should I tell on a "friend" who is going to lie on AMCAS?

  • Total voters
    201
Goro said:
If anything, my school is too soft on unprofessional students! You'd think that dissing several of the clinical faculty to their faces would get one booted out for a year, but noooooooo!
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dissing is a pretty unprofessional word Goro 😉
 
m1021 said:
Okay, now i'm mad I didn't fabricate my application since so many other students do! Why didn't I think of that?!
😉
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Fabio Lanzoni said:
There's always residency
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you also could be unethical in other ways. You can cheat on your wife in the future. You could also not pay your taxes. The list is endless.
 
Your analogy doesn't quite fit and is hyperbole. Personally, I think you should MYOB.

UlahSnackbar said:
Have you ever heard of being ethical? When you give a patient 10x the dose of medication, are you going to be honest and tell the patient's family it was your fault or are you gonna cover your own behind?
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Nope....wonderful, sweet natured people, really. My fellow faculty are very nice, we're like a big family here. No sterotypcial surgeon-dictators here.


DermViser said:
Were they ****** faculty? Were they Surgeons or OB-Gyns? Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe those faculty were abusing med students?
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circulus vitios said:
Let's play devil's advocate: if lying about ECs ultimately has no impact on the quality of a physician, are ECs really worth anything?
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No one said that lying about ECs ultimately has no impact on the quality of a physician. Lying about ECs is a sign of a character flaw. Chances are that someone lying so egregiously will get found out before admission. If not, it will become apparent later on. You won't be able to lie your way through medical school or residency interviews or board certification.
 
Question: if an interviewer finds her story fishy and confirms that she was lying, will they alert AMCAS/other schools she applied to?
 
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jm192 said:
Secondly, and this is the big one: 36 MCAT, "good GPA" as you put it--as long as she has SOME EC's, she's going to get in somewhere.
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So a premed already responded to this point, but since everyone is dismissing the opinion of said pre-med, I'll respond too. I can tell you from personal experience that even people with high stats get rejected every year. Even people who are wicked smart and are going to make brilliant doctors one day get rejected every year. I was one of them with my 36, 3.98 (4.0 sci). And, as Goro has mentioned, if she really is making all this stuff up, at some point, she's going to get caught in her lie.

jm192 said:
But a lie on AMCAS or AACOMAS is absolutely sinister and makes you a horrible physician. It's all still a lie. But if we put it on application, it goes to a whole new level?
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Stakes are higher. If you get caught lying on AMCAS, you could potentially never make it into medical school. Obviously, people take that risk and do it anyway every year, but the fact still remains--on most applications, if you put down a falsehood (or even omit something), you could be denied the position you're applying for.
 
I had the opportunity to talk to an ADCOM recently. He talked about how its easy to tell when someone's application seems too good to be true. Even if ADCOMs somehow believe your friend had time for all those ECs, there's still many potential snags further down the road:

1. Your friend screws up during interviews. It's really hard to talk about something genuinely if you never did it.
2. Although ADCOMs usually don't verify most activities, I've heard research publications/abstracts/posters are sometimes an exception. If they look that up, it would blow her cover.
3. If she really hasn't volunteered or shadowed that much, she doesn't know what she's getting herself into. Maybe she'll hate clinical rotations, discover that this path isn't for her, and get weeded out by the system?
 
TheWeeIceMan said:
I'm more concerened about these physicians giving butt implants to unsuspecting victims. You think you're just going in for an ear infection, but then....BOOM....butt implant.
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Oh, so a butt implant isn't the treatment for otitis media? Oopsies....
 
Do schools even check to see if you actually did what you say you did? It seems to me (in my pre-med mind) that they only check on this stuff if it seems blatantly incorrect or fabricated. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
UlahSnackbar said:
I went to a "friend's" apartment the other day and we were talking about applying to medical school. I have not started my applications yet since I'm still writing my PS. Anyway, I asked to see her AMCAS since she said early submissions gives applicants a leg up on the competition, thus she has her's ready to submit tomorrow.

Now, she got a 36 on her MCAT(pretty damn impressive). And she has a good GPA. But then I got to the ECs section...she completely lied about going to Ecuador and building steps and taking care of children for two weeks. She also fabricated her volunteer hours a ton(I know because I volunteer with her). When I say a ton, I mean turning about 30 hours in 500 hours. Not only that, she worked in an office with me not in an emergency department like she claims. Moreover, she also put down she is doing 200 hours shadowing in radiology and putting her cousin down as the contact, who is really just an ultrasound tech. And most egregious of all? The credit she is taking for a research poster presented at the University's undergraduate research conference that another one of my friend's did most of the work on. Lastly, she put down that she is part of the medical fraternity at school.

Furthermore, I do not think this girl is cut out for medical school. She just whines about how daddy won't pay for her to go more shopping. She hates poor people and constantly goes on about her ayn rand philosophy of caring about only herself. The only reason I tolerate her is because we've had many classes together and hang around most of the same circles. I want to believe everyone can redeem themselves later down the road, but I don't know if I would want this girl taking care of my mom or dad with the way she is lying. She reminds me of those physicians who give butt implants to unsuspecting victims even though she is only a Family Practioner, not a plastic surgeon.

TL;DR: Friend is lying alot on application and is a terrible human being. Should I alert AMCAS or any medical schools she applies to?
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I'm very disappointed by the [majority] of responses here, which completely disregard your dilemma and make light of cheating. If you feel compelled to report your suspicions to AMCAS, do it. AMCAS has the authority and ability to follow-up on many claims made in an application. You do not need to validate your decision by asserting or convincing yourself or SDN that your roommate is not physician material. That decision is not yours to make.
 
jm192 said:
No one ever died because someone lied on their AMCAS. There is a process in place to make sure you are competent before you are responsible for lives. Lying on your AMCAS won't get you through Step 1.

And, I think there are just a lot more realists posting than wide eyed save the world types. Of course doctors should be honest. But I'll never believe 100% of applicants are 100% honest on their application.

Is it YOUR job to go and rat out the unhonest ones? Again, God didn't send you to save medicine from the immoral and the unjust. Let the system do what it's supposed to. If she gets in, she still has to pass classes and boards.

And As the guy who is just really white knighting honesty--I'd LOVE a response from you. Have you ever lied? Have you lied more than once? Why is it that a lie about something else is ok, but lying on AMCAS or AACOMAS is somehow sinister?
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Negative. A realist would acknowledge that cheating occurs. It is a person of a different kind that allows it to occur under his or her watch; i.e. an apathetic, a sympathizer or perhaps an enthusiast.

Further, this is not an issue of one's job description. It's an issue of one's core values and respect for the competitive process and rules governing medical school admissions.

One can appreciate the rules without being an idealist, and I for one support anyone who does their part to ensure the process remains fair, or moves closer towards it.
 
The right thing would be that she gets found out. However, I don't know if you want to get involved in that, it could get messy.
 
hubriz said:
Negative. A realist would acknowledge that cheating occurs. It is a person of a different kind that allows it to occur under his or her watch; i.e. an apathetic, a sympathizer or perhaps an enthusiast.

Further, this is not an issue of one's job description. It's an issue of one's core values and respect for the competitive process and rules governing medical school admissions.

One can appreciate the rules without being an idealist, and I for one support anyone who does their part to ensure the process remains fair, or moves closer towards it.
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Call it what you want.

Some of us realize you can't change this. Report this girl, the rest of the cheaters are still cheating. What have you accomplished? You kept 1 liar out, another liar got in.

It's not a perfect system, but it's a really good one. The AdCom's KNOW people lie on their AMCAS. And they don't lose sleep over it. So, why should we?
 
jm192 said:
Call it what you want.

Some of us realize you can't change this. Report this girl, the rest of the cheaters are still cheating. What have you accomplished? You kept 1 liar out, another liar got in.

It's not a perfect system, but it's a really good one. The AdCom's KNOW people lie on their AMCAS. And they don't lose sleep over it. So, why should we?
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It's not a matter of changing the system, it's a matter of supporting it.

Using your scenario, please reconsider your question a little differently: What have you accomplished by doing nothing? You kept one liar in and another honest person out.

There is a difference between knowing people in general lie on admission applications and which specific people have lied. When faced with the latter, the responsibility of those who are a part of the process change, and I am of the opinion that we are all part of the system.
 
circulus vitios said:
Let's play devil's advocate: if lying about ECs ultimately has no impact on the quality of a physician, are ECs really worth anything?
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No way!!! It totally puts on something better than the Greatest Show on Earth!

circus_bigshow_6.jpg
 
hubriz said:
It's not a matter of changing the system, it's a matter of supporting it.

Using your scenario, please reconsider your question a little differently: What have you accomplished by doing nothing? You kept one liar in and another honest person out.

There is a difference between knowing people in general lie on admission applications and which specific people have lied. When faced with the latter, the responsibility of those who are a part of the process change, and I am of the opinion that we are all part of the system.
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No. You haven't.

Because another liar is getting in.

Again, NOT doing something isn't the same as supporting it. I asked someone else--but What have YOU done to help find the missing Nigerian school girls? Do you support the fact that they're missing? No? Then why don't you get over there and do something? Because you realize you can't effectively change anything.
 
I would try to have the big time AMCAS liar rejected.
I would also try to have the person that flagged the liar rejected, too.

In this case, neither can be trusted.

Despite OP's best effort at making this look like an act of justice/honesty on their part -- I cant help but get a whiff of cut-throat gunner under all that white knight armor... or they are completely naive and oblivious to how the real world works. You arent "saving any veterans" today.

I wouldnt necessarily want either person as a classmate or a colleague.

If only I was involved in med school admissions. Oh wait, I am. 😉
My advice before you start calling schools:

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The thing to realize is you(in general terms) aren't able to change people from keeping on doing this. Call me a cynic, but sorry, as much as rainbows and unicorns are a fun world to live in, it's not realistic. Unless you devote your entire life to this cause, really, you are better off using your time in much more valuable ways.

Besides, if they truly are douchebags, they'll get their butts handed to them really quickly. Either with academics, or a sassy attending cutting him/her down with words, or their patients wishing to transfer care to the non-douche doctor.
 
I don't care about most people lying about petty stuff, but OP said her "friend" lied about going to "Ecuador and building steps and taking care of children for two weeks". wtf is that? that shows u truly don't give a crap about those poor kids in Ecuador. I honestly would never go to Ecuador to help them out but I wouldn't lie about doing something like that. That's like smacking one of those Ecuador kid's in the face.

Lying about doing altruistic deeds proves you're defiantly not altruistic. Never doing altruistic deeds doesn't prove anything.

If you lie about helping poor unfortunate kids who have nothing to look forward in their lives just to boast up your medical school application, you could burn in hell for all I care.
 
Frazier said:
I would try to have the big time AMCAS liar rejected.
I would also try to have the person that flagged the liar rejected, too.

In this case, neither can be trusted. I wouldnt necessarily want either as a classmate or a colleague.

Despite OP's best effort at making this look like an act of justice/honesty on their part -- I cant help but get a whiff of cut-throat gunner under all that white knight armor... or they are completely naive and oblivious to how the real world works. You arent "saving any veterans" today.

If only I was involved in med school admissions. Oh wait, I am. 😉
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I'm sorry if discussing ethics is considered "gunner."
 
Also, why is "friend" in quotations throughout this whole convo? If she's not your real friend, then say so! 😛
 
UlahSnackbar said:
I'm sorry if discussing ethics is considered "gunner."
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No need to apologize. Discussing ethics isn't "gunner."

However, getting close to a person (close enough to hang out at their apartment and having them think you are a friend), only to turn around and keep track of inconsistencies in their application and plan to secretly out them behind their back to med schools after they apply -- gives a whiff of gunner.

Also, calling the person "friend" instead of just typing friend and go on to say "The only reason I tolerate her is because we've had many classes together and hang around most of the same circles" -- gives a whiff of gunner.

Also, basing your decision to alter the course of this person's entire life on a mere SDN survey filled out by a jury of anonymous pre-meds on the internet -- gives a whiff of gunner.

The fact that you mentioned her stats and called them impressive right before you noted her "fabrications" -- gives the whiff of gunner.

The fact that you actually said the sentence "Furthermore, I do not think this girl is cut out for medical school." -- gives the whiff of gunner.

I could go on... but I will just post this picture again:

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My instinct is that she needs to be caught if she truly is lying; but not because she's "taking the spot of someone who deserves it more" (because that's too short-sighted), but rather the long term implications of someone like this who becomes a physician. Particularly troubling, if true, is your friend's claim of looking after herself above all others first (sounds incredibly selfish and self-serving..). Lying so extravagantly about ECs is a display of a major character flaw. What is going to happen if she screws up later on when people's lives are on the line? She's probably going to lie about it to save her behind. I think that a major component of being a good physician is just giving a crap about the people you are treating. I find it hard to believe someone so selfish and self-serving can find it in themselves to give a crap when they're running on 3 hours of sleep and a boatload of other patients they have to see.

Would you want someone like THAT treating your family? If not, then she shouldn't be a physician unless she corrects that mentality of hers. I'm quite disturbed that so many people are treating this so lightly.
 
jm192 said:
Call it what you want.

Some of us realize you can't change this. Report this girl, the rest of the cheaters are still cheating. What have you accomplished? You kept 1 liar out, another liar got in.

It's not a perfect system, but it's a really good one. The AdCom's KNOW people lie on their AMCAS. And they don't lose sleep over it. So, why should we?
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I used your hypothetical scenario. Unless you are calling all applicants liars, it would be inconsistent to say that there is no benefit to keeping a liar out.

jm192 said:
No. You haven't.
Because another liar is getting in.
Again, NOT doing something isn't the same as supporting it. I asked someone else--but What have YOU done to help find the missing Nigerian school girls? Do you support the fact that they're missing? No? Then why don't you get over there and do something? Because you realize you can't effectively change anything.
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I saw your analogy earlier. It's still inappropriate.

Here's why: If by happenstance you discovered the whereabouts of a single missing Nigerian girl, you would not report that information, because, according to your line of thinking, reporting one girl (a single event) will not effectively change the circumstance of the all the missing girls, or the entire system.

Again, it's not about changing the system.

We don't need to misrepresent the issue through analogy; it's not complicated.
 
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musicalfeet said:
My instinct is that she needs to be caught if she truly is lying; but not because she's "taking the spot of someone who deserves it more" (because that's too short-sighted), but rather the long term implications of someone like this who becomes a physician. Particularly troubling, if true, is your friend's claim of looking after herself above all others first (sounds incredibly selfish and self-serving..). Lying so extravagantly about ECs is a display of a major character flaw. What is going to happen if she screws up later on when people's lives are on the line? She's probably going to lie about it to save her behind. I think that a major component of being a good physician is just giving a crap about the people you are treating. I find it hard to believe someone so selfish and self-serving can find it in themselves to give a crap when they're running on 3 hours of sleep and a boatload of other patients they have to see.

Would you want someone like THAT treating your family? If not, then she shouldn't be a physician unless she corrects that mentality of hers. I'm quite disturbed that so many people are treating this so lightly.
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People aren't advocating that lying is awesome and everyone should do it. People are reacting to the person going out of their way to cause a ruckus on something that will probably solve itself on its own without the OP needing to put her business into it.

I mean, if someone wants to feel good ruining the chances of this one teeny tiny person, go ahead I guess. It won't matter, seeing as 100 other people will do the same. Noone here in this topic will ever have the power to "stop liars from lying on med school applications". In my opinion, people who lie to a certain extent eventually get caught(which is always hilarious....especially when you meet ME, someone who has a strong memory and detail oriented in terms of conversations).
 
KnuxNole said:
People aren't advocating that lying is awesome and everyone should do it. People are reacting to the person going out of their way to cause a ruckus on something that will probably solve itself on its own without the OP needing to put her business into it.

I mean, if someone wants to feel good ruining the chances of this one teeny tiny person, go ahead I guess. It won't matter, seeing as 100 other people will do the same. Noone here in this topic will ever have the power to "stop liars from lying on med school applications". In my opinion, people who lie to a certain extent eventually get caught(which is always hilarious....especially when you meet ME, someone who has a strong memory and detail oriented in terms of conversations).
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When do you advise people to shift their attitude from apathy to one that is responsive when they have reason to believe someone is cheating? It's best they get some practice now.
 
hubriz said:
I used your hypothetical scenario. Unless you are calling all applicants liars, it would be inconsistent to say that there is no benefit to keeping a liar out.



I saw your analogy earlier. It's still inappropriate.

Here's why: If by happenstance you discovered the whereabouts of a single missing Nigerian girl, you would not report that information, because, according to your line of thinking, reporting one girl (a single event) will not effectively change the circumstance of the all the missing girls, or the entire system.

Again, it's not about changing the system.

We don't need to misrepresent the issue through analogy; it's not complicated.
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LOL

I think we've all explicitly stated that there are instances where you are at fault for keeping your mouth shut.

The point of the Nigerian girl thing was: Inaction=/= condoning.
 
hubriz said:
I'm very disappointed by the [majority] of responses here, which completely disregard your dilemma and make light of cheating. If you feel compelled to report your suspicions to AMCAS, do it. AMCAS has the authority and ability to follow-up on many claims made in an application. You do not need to validate your decision by asserting or convincing yourself or SDN that your roommate is not physician material. That decision is not yours to make.
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When I pulled out my phone to scan the latest threads and saw this title, I figured it was a no brainer that this would be something you report. Imagine my surprise upon seeing the poll results and the vast majority of forum members and moderators alike spouting catch phrases like MYOB or U mad brah. Making a joke about someone who is trying to do the right thing is low. Telling the OP to let this go under the thin excuse that "other people do this too" is even worse. Does anyone realize how many stressed out premeds in the midst of submitting their AMCAS are lurking here and absorb all of this information? By telling OP to look the other way, what is the message that you're telling them? Shame on you.

Thank you for your post, hubriz.
 
Less dishonest doctor=better world. OP please alert other people if you can do it without getting yourself in to trouble. And yes, you won't fix public's perception on dishonesty as it is evident in this forum. I tried so hard during my undergraduate year to catch honor code violators but the number of violators increased every year.
 
hubriz said:
When do you advise people to shift their attitude from apathy to one that is responsive when they have reason to believe someone is cheating? It's best they get some practice now.
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If the OP wants to get practice, she should talk to her frenemy about these things and confront if these are legit or not. Maybe a lot of these things ARE real. Did the OP ASK the girl if she went to Ecuador? If the frenemy lies that she hates poor people, you can't tell AMCAS you think this applicant is lying about her undying love for the poor. Those types of fibs...well, a good interviewer can see through that easily. Honestly, who the **** cares if you did 50 or 500 hours of volunteering? I mean, everyone here knows those little POS details don't determine who gets into a medical school. If it is, there are other more glaring faults with your app than ECs.
 
KnuxNole said:
If the OP wants to get practice, she should talk to her frenemy about these things and confront if these are legit or not. Maybe a lot of these things ARE real. Did the OP ASK the girl if she went to Ecuador? If the frenemy lies that she hates poor people, you can't tell AMCAS you think this applicant is lying about her undying love for the poor. Those types of fibs...well, a good interviewer can see through that easily. Honestly, who the **** cares if you did 50 or 500 hours of volunteering? I mean, everyone here knows those little POS details don't determine who gets into a medical school. If it is, there are other more glaring faults with your app than ECs.
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See, thats the problem. She has those damned impressive numbers -- so we gotta do everything we can to sabotage this vile evil-doer in the hopes that she never steps in the hallowed halls of medicine. Doctors wear white coats for a reason -- it is because they are so pure, of course.
 
KnuxNole said:
If the OP wants to get practice, she should talk to her frenemy about these things and confront if these are legit or not. Maybe a lot of these things ARE real. Did the OP ASK the girl if she went to Ecuador? If the frenemy lies that she hates poor people, you can't tell AMCAS you think this applicant is lying about her undying love for the poor. Those types of fibs...well, a good interviewer can see through that easily. Honestly, who the **** cares if you did 50 or 500 hours of volunteering? I mean, everyone here knows those little POS details don't determine who gets into a medical school. If it is, there are other more glaring faults with your app than ECs.
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Of course she wouldn't say she hates poor people to an adcom. She would veil it as "market freedom and efficiency" and that "welfare is inefficient and immoral."

Also, thanks to all the posters on the last two pages of this thread that finally see what I am saying. I was getting ridiculed for even believing in academic integrity and honesty.
 
The situation boils down to this. OP ask yourself if you truly care about the ethics involved with your friend. If so, u should do some action. But it seems as if you are just jealous about the person and envious that she is more competitive than you. You're reasoning does not justify your action. Because if you really cared about ethics, you would tell her she shouldn't lie on her AMCAS instead of reporting her without her knowledge.

On a side note I really hope none of these premeds are my colleagues someday
 
UlahSnackbar said:
Of course she wouldn't say she hates poor people to an adcom. She would veil it as "market freedom and efficiency" and that "welfare is inefficient and immoral."

Also, thanks to all the posters on the last two pages of this thread that finally see what I am saying. I was getting ridiculed for even believing in academic integrity and honesty.
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I'm assuming you already had a huge heart to heart with your girl, talking about every lie in the app, and asking why she said each thing, correct? That's the first step if you truly care about this and want to do something positive.
 
KnuxNole said:
If the OP wants to get practice, she should talk to her frenemy about these things and confront if these are legit or not. Maybe a lot of these things ARE real. Did the OP ASK the girl if she went to Ecuador? If the frenemy lies that she hates poor people, you can't tell AMCAS you think this applicant is lying about her undying love for the poor. Those types of fibs...well, a good interviewer can see through that easily. Honestly, who the **** cares if you did 50 or 500 hours of volunteering? I mean, everyone here knows those little POS details don't determine who gets into a medical school. If it is, there are other more glaring faults with your app than ECs.
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I think it's important that you, as a resident, set a good example for pre-meds and current medical school students. Confronting the frenemy would be a good start.

Other residents and medical school students should consider what type of example they are setting as well.
 
The OP also trolls the waitlist threads trying to brag about how their 31 mcat will keep them from being waitlisted. Now I am beginning to really doubt the OP's claims about this "friend" since they also seem to be the real gunner, hateful type...
 
During my undergraduate years, I worked as a justice for student conduct at my school. Every year, about 400 students are brought in for academic dishonesty, including cheating, plagiarism and falsification. My job was to investigate cases and run hearings to determine guilt.

About 380 students are reported by professors, and 20 students are reported by me.

Some of you will wonder, 'why the **** would you do that?', or simply comment, 'mind your own business'.
Here is why I reported them.
1. I believe that dishonest people are cancers in our society. They spread and they waste valuable resources.
2. If I did not report them, NO ONE would have reported them.
3. It is my business because they are corrupting the society I live in.
4. With minimal effort, I can create barriers to some dishonest people to move up within the society.

Of course, I do not expect my action to change public's perception on dishonesty. However, I do know for sure that my job did affect dishonest individuals who were reported by me.

Unless you are concerning about OP's well-being and possible backslash, no one should discourage OP to report.
 
hubriz said:
When do you advise people to shift their attitude from apathy to one that is responsive when they have reason to believe someone is cheating? It's best they get some practice now.
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I think it's been posted 25 times now. You switch from apathy to responsiveness when patient care is affected.
 
LMBLBM said:
During my undergraduate years, I worked as a justice for student conduct at my school. Every year, about 400 students are brought in for academic dishonesty, including cheating, plagiarism and falsification. My job was to investigate cases and run hearings to determine guilt.

About 380 students are reported by professors, and 20 students are reported by me.

Some of you will wonder, 'why the **** would you do that?', or simply comment, 'mind your own business'.
Here is why I reported them.
1. I believe that dishonest people are cancers in our society. They spread and they waste valuable resources.
2. If I did not report them, NO ONE would have reported them.
3. It is my business because they are corrupting the society I live in.
4. With minimal effort, I can create barriers to some dishonest people to move up within the society.

Of course, I do not expect my action to change public's perception on dishonesty. However, I do know for sure that my job did affect dishonest individuals who were reported by me.

Unless you are concerning about OP's well-being and possible backslash, no one should discourage OP to report.
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Why did you bother typing all of that? Only your very last sentence was relevant. Everything else sounds like a case study on megalomania.
 
jm192 said:
I think it's been posted 25 times now. You switch from apathy to responsiveness when patient care is affected.
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You're very idealistic. First you think adcoms can catch any hint of lying on an application. There's a quote of you saying that upstream so you don't need to deny this. I think we can all agree (except you) that it's hard to catch a liar sometimes.

Second you think that being apathetic is the best route when the stakes are small but that someone will suddenly grow a spine when the stakes are big.

Somehow I don't think people work like that. If one doesn't have the integrity to even confront another person about a mere misrepresentation on a piece of paper with no possible repercussions such as criminal prosecution, how can we expect the same person to say, confront him or herself, as in, "crap, I O/D'ed a patient and he's critically ill now; I should owe up at the very least"? In the latter case (malpractice), the risk of criminal prosecution is definitely present. So now we someone who never had a spine to grow one right then and there and owe up to the mistake?

Back to the OP's case, the case definitely isn't airtight so I would probably at least have a "heart to heart" as suggested above with the "frenemy" to see what's up. Lying doesn't do her any good and doesn't do anyone any good. Reporting her definitely don't do her any good. Seeing her about it might just result in a win-win - no deliberate misrepresentations on her app anymore - and perhaps, as Goro suggested - a much smoother interview (no "crucifixion") 😉.
 
Teleologist said:
You're very idealistic. First you think adcoms can catch any hint of lying on an application. There's a quote of you saying that upstream so you don't need to deny this. I think we can all agree (except you) that it's hard to catch a liar sometimes.

Second you think that being apathetic is the best route when the stakes are small but that someone will suddenly grow a spine when the stakes are big.

Somehow I don't think people work like that. If one doesn't have the integrity to even confront another person about a mere misrepresentation on a piece of paper with no possible repercussions such as criminal prosecution, how can we expect the same person to say, confront him or herself, as in, "crap, I O/D'ed a patient and he's critically ill now; I should owe up at the very least"? In the latter case (malpractice), the risk of criminal prosecution is definitely present. So now we someone who never had a spine to grow one right then and there and owe up to the mistake?

Back to the OP's case, the case definitely isn't airtight so I would probably at least have a "heart to heart" as suggested above with the "frenemy" to see what's up. Lying doesn't do her any good and doesn't do anyone any good. Reporting her definitely don't do her any good. Seeing her about it might just result in a win-win - no deliberate misrepresentations on her app anymore - and perhaps, as Goro suggested - a much smoother interview (no "crucifixion") 😉.
Click to expand...

Well 1. Adcoms are ITT saying THEY think they'd catch this person in the lie if they are in fact lying.
2. You're acting as if this is a practice scenario to build one's courage. No. It's not
3. I absolutely AGREE that you should have a heart to heart. I've posted several times ITT that that's the answer to most scenarios like this.
4. This is for anyone reading this: If you're going to struggle finding your spine to speak up when patient care is being affected--you should maybe consider other fields.
 
Teleologist said:
Somehow I don't think people work like that. If one doesn't have the integrity to even confront another person about a mere misrepresentation on a piece of paper with no possible repercussions such as criminal prosecution, how can we expect the same person to say, confront him or herself, as in, "crap, I O/D'ed a patient and he's critically ill now; I should owe up at the very least"? In the latter case (malpractice), the risk of criminal prosecution is definitely present. So now we someone who never had a spine to grow one right then and there and owe up to the mistake?
Click to expand...

Then I don't think you have the slightest clue how people work. Do you also believe that if I do not report every speeding violation I witness, that I would not have the "spine" to report a murder if I saw one?

Look OP, if you're that worried about your "friend" lying on their application, tell them so. I'd say that's about where your moral obligation ends.
 
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