Should I tell on a "friend" who is going to lie on AMCAS?

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Should I tell on a "friend" who is going to lie on AMCAS?


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I just find it funny how you are scrutinizing him/her and just blowing off what he/she said because "many others" do it as well. That is definitely not the way to look at this scenario. This is coming from the type of person that doesn't tell on others, but at the same time if someone else decided to I wouldn't call him a tattle tale. Especially if his evidence is true.

You're kind of combining points.

It's not that everyone does it, so it's ok. It's "Everyone does it, so the lying friend isn't gaining an advantage."

As far as calling the OP a tattle tale, I was using the grade school term to make a point, not to belittle. You want to portray yourself as a professional throughout this entire process. One of the WORST things you can do is speak negatively about someone else. Med schools don't want to train doctors that are going to talk negatively about their colleagues. And moreso, you need to learn to just not to this.

As a doctor, you're going to depend on these relationships. The beginning post doesn't sound like you're concerned about patients and the integrity of the process. It sounds like you dislike the other girl. The fact that you asked to see their AMCAS and then started a thread and considered reporting it--that's NOT a good look.

If someone said they were lying and you became curious--it's a little different. But you ASKED. Now you're considering reporting it--which could potentially ruin any future applications.

That's simply not how you handle these situations. You don't turn people in the first chance you get. You don't risk ruining their future. You don't crap on your relationships. Even if you think the person is a crap doctor/is going to make a crap doctor.

And to the people you report to--you really just come across as a jealous and whiny pre-med that's worried you won't get in. That's not the image you want to send as an applicant.
 
Honestly, it's not your place to do so. If she is as big of a misfit as you describe, things will catch up with her.
My curiosity has peaked. So if this girl didn't have such an obviously insufferable personality, you would still do nothing? Even though it wouldn't catch up to her in that case?

In tho world there are so many liars and cheaters. Many are not calculated about it down to the last detail an they get their "karma". But do those other class of cheaters deserve to get away ten?


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My curiosity has peaked. So if this girl didn't have such an obviously insufferable personality, you would still do nothing? Even though it wouldn't catch up to her in that case?

In tho world there are so many liars and cheaters. Many are not calculated about it down to the last detail an they get their "karma". But do those other class of cheaters deserve to get away ten?


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Great point.

OP--do you still consider reporting it if this was a person you thought WAS fit for medical school?

And if your answer is yes: Why even mention the girl isn't going to be a good doctor in your opinion?
 
I would much rather threaten her. Why? Because if she lies, she gets in unfairly or gets caught and probably will not be allowed to apply to medical school again. Otherwise, if you tell, she gets kicked out, her life is a mess, and your friendship is probably ruined. If you threaten her, she will tell the truth.
 
Ask a royalty on her future earnings in exchange for keeping your mouth shut (do it after she's started medical school for optimal effects).
 
I hope that the people calling it "ratting" or saying idiotic things like "snitches get stitches" are being facetious. OP's friend is dong something that is ethically on about the same level as cheating in a large enough number of classes to make a deserved 2.0 into a 4.0. The "friend" is the one being unethical IF OP is being truthful and is aware of all the relevant facts.
It's not about ratting or snitching (turning in liar and a cheat is not snitching). It's not about letting things go because cheaters get their just deserts in the end (things don't always work that way in the real world, unfortunately). It's that any attempt to expose this person is likely to backfire spectacularly. The fact of the matter is that even if OP was 100% sure that this friend was lying (and it doesn't seem that way), the burden of proof falls on the accuser.

What proof do you have OP? Do you have your friend's volunteering hour logs? Any way to prove that she wasn't in Ecuador during the period in question? A doctor at the hospital who can vouch that she never shadowed?

When you make an accusation without any kind of proof, people start to think that maybe it was a false accusation. And then all your friend has to do is say that you were always jealous of her, that you've always hated her for some petty reason, that you were so malicious that you hacked into her AMCAS account to try to frame her (badly), and now there is a second investigation regarding you. You'll probably be found innocent, but the next few weeks will be a complete s***show.

Don't try to turn in your friend. Even if she is guilty, odds are that this wont end well. It sucks, but the world is unfair as it always has been.
 
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Ask a royalty on her future earnings in exchange for keeping your mouth shut (do it after she's started medical school for optimal effects).

Yes. Do this. Although it reminds me of those detective shows where the person is tired of being blackmailed ends up on a murder-spree.
 
This is why I've always suggested having oversight over certain ECs like volunteering. Look, anyone with half a brain is smart enough to realize that it's a requirement. So make it an official requirement already! If there was oversight over these activities, things like this wouldn't be happening. My suggestion is to have a standardized evaluation (nothing subjective), just to make sure that the applicant isn't goofing off, is showing up to the shifts, and is honest about their hours. The fact that pre-meds constantly embellish their hours makes things worse for everyone else. In fact, this is why hours get pushed to ridiculous levels, and make the lives of the honest applicants horrible.

"Oh, I only have 200 hours? Let's add another 300 hours for kicks, and now I have a more attractive 500!" I'm guessing that things like this are very common.

But since there is a lack of oversight, I'm assuming that ADCOMs are saying that maybe these ECs aren't oh so important. Also, to the OP and people who want to report the student, where do you draw the line? Is writing 300 hours for only 297 hours considered lying? What about writing 300 hours for only 277 hours? What about 300 hours for only 250 hours? What about 300 hours for only 30 hours? Where do you draw the line?! The GPA you can't fake, and definitely not the MCAT. Well actually, it's kind of funny, because everyone who takes the MCAT is treated like a freaking criminal at the testing center! 🙄

This is why I highly suggest having more oversight over ECs. Hours have skyrocketed to unrealistic and painful levels, which only hurt the honest applicants. It's very easy to add another zero to your hours. I think a lot of pre-meds are comfortable about doing this since it's unlikely things will get checked. Whether someone has 30 hours or 300 hours, they will likely use the same number of experiences in their PS and at interviews. I don't think someone with hundreds of hours will honestly tell ADCOMs about every experience they've had! This is why people who game the system usually turn out okay.

Oh and if you the OP's friend isn't familiar with SDN, they might be walking into a trap regarding the Ecuador trip. As you know, pre-meds seem to think the more you do, the better. This is why generally people on here say free clinics >>>>>>>> hospital volunteering. It's not because they give a crap about the poor, but it's because they can do more. If she doesn't know any better, she will claim to have done things that ADCOMs consider unethical. This will be the end of her.

Finally, I'm kind of surprised that most people are telling the OP to let it go (I also voted for this). As has been mentioned before in this thread, when asked if you would turn in your best friend for cheating, the answer is "yes." Because obviously, any normal person would throw even their own grandmother under the bus. 😛
 
OP, I concur with my young colleague. Let it go, because your friend is setting up such a large trap for herself that she's going to walk right into it, eyes open, and get crucified at interviewed. Generally, when people have amazing ECs, we ask people about the, Mission trips, because they're so easy to inflate or confabulate about, are particular prompts for interview questions.

If it's absolutely killing you, then chat with her advisor or chair of the pre-med committee (if your school has one) and ask for advice about a "lying friend".

Goro's post (and he is an actual ADCOM faculty member OP) pretty much wrapped up the thread. OP, if you find yourself determined to "do something", forget about AMCAS or the schools' admissions departments - they can't open the floodgates to allow tens of thousands of students to potentially call in about any other of the tens of thousands of students. The only referees considered are those who submit letter of recommendation. If you must intervene, contact your OWN school's premed office with your concerns. My personal experience on a high school level is that they will compel the student to be honest.

However, as others have pointed out, this is unlikely to be the first instance of potential dishonesty you have encountered and had the opportunity to report. Everyone is going to be wondering what exactly was different about THIS case that made you come forward, and you cannot deny that as an applicant yourself, you have a horse in this incredibly intense race (or more accurately, a horse in a different heat on a different course in a different race in a different regional, but at least it's the same conference). I think you need to be fully honest with yourself - I know you are offended by the blatant attempt to cheat the system, as am I (and indeed most posters here on some level), but that's not ALL that factors into your decision, is it?
 
Write about this "friend" in your unfinished PS. That will help speed things up for you.
 
It seems like we all need a remedial lesson in choosing our battles...

For what it's worth, I didn't lie on my application and I got in. If it comes out one of my classmates lied their way in to school, they'll probably get a cold shoulder from me socially but as long as their academic chops are up to par who cares? Sounds like her chops are more than adequate.
 
Bro, you already ratted.

ADCOMS, keep an eye out for:

1)36 MCAT
2)Ecuador experience: building steps, taking care of children for 2 weeks
3) Volunteer position with 500 hours
4) 200 hours of radiology shadowing

I'm sure this info will isolate a very small pool of applicants, if not the one.


This is stupid, you don't know if the OP is lying.

To the OP, keep your mouth shut.
 
As a previous student-run conduct prosecutor at my undergrad, here are some tips before you 'snipe' someone.

1. Make sure that you are in a right position
2. Make sure that you have enough 'bullets'
3. Make sure that you can 'kill' the target
4. Make sure that your target has nothing to turn against you when you missed the target

That being said, you do not have solid proof, you obtained evidence unethically and high chance of things going against you.
You can PM me if you truly want to report her
 
See the thing is that I want to let it go, but this is outright fabrication. I mean, I know some people embellish, but outright make stuff up? I could go to our hospital's volunteer coordinator and ask for her volunteer hours, but I don't think they would give it to me. Maybe if I tell him the situation he could help me alert med schools, but idk. I don't want to face any kind of retaliation for messing up someone's life by getting them blacklisted or looking like a tattle tale myself.

Aren't you applying this cycle as well? Assume you would be busier than building up a "case" against your so called friend. Honestly, I think that person is a loser for lying like that, but it isn't your call of duty to alert the AMCAS, med schools she applies to, and the justice of the peace. LMAO. Plenty of people LIE on apps, especially about ec's. Does this make it right? Absolutely not. But, don't feel some moral obligation to try to build some case against the friend, could honestly turn into a witch hunt for you. Even worse it will at least probably require you to devote a ton of time to prove any of this. Do you care that much? An even bigger concern I would have if I was you is her turning around on you and accusing you of slander, then all of a sudden heat is on you! All because you wanted to be some justice of the peace figure you esteem to be. This in no way will better your position in life, but it could easily make it worse. I can forecast headaches out the wazoo for you if you pursue this. And the way you seem so adamant about pursuing this and not open to peoples advice on this board going to the contrary concerns me. It isn't your concern, and could create a mess for you if you pursue. Don't do it. She could crash and burn on her own, or she could get into her top choices with her stats. If either of these outcomes bother you, then you are insecure.

In life, you are going to see people do immoral things frequently to better their positions, and if you start blowing the whistle every time like some fool you will end up with tons of enemies, or maybe even dead. When it comes to gaining money and success, people will do some crazy things in this world. Start trying to interfere in these endeavors when its not necessary for yourself to do so and bad things will come your way. I say carry on, and mind your business, and let this cycle known as life continue. Don't be the chicken who sticks his neck out when he doesn't have to. If you think about your contradiction in simplistic terms, all of a sudden it won't be much of a contradiction at all. The right choice for you will be utterly apparent.
 
As a previous student-run conduct prosecutor at my undergrad, here are some tips before you 'snipe' someone.

1. Make sure that you are in a right position
2. Make sure that you have enough 'bullets'
3. Make sure that you can 'kill' the target
4. Make sure that your target has nothing to turn against you when you missed the target

That being said, you do not have solid proof, you obtained evidence unethically and high chance of things going against you.
You can PM me if you truly want to report her

Ah, are you an attorney? OP has nothing to gain but bring unnecessary difficulties to them self by pursuing this. Sounds like you are talking Borne Ultimatum…lmao.
 
Go for it. Tell on her. If she didn't want to get screwed over by someone, she shouldn't have lied. Less competition for you.
 
And how is it a victimless crime when thousands of students spend hundreds to thousands of dollars applying to medical schools and truly qualified applicants are rejected or waitlisted?
You mean like URMs who get in with much lower average MCAT and GPA? Oh wait, then it's ok.
 
I went to a "friend's" apartment the other day and we were talking about applying to medical school. I have not started my applications yet since I'm still writing my PS. Anyway, I asked to see her AMCAS since she said early submissions gives applicants a leg up on the competition, thus she has her's ready to submit tomorrow.

Now, she got a 36 on her MCAT(pretty damn impressive). And she has a good GPA. But then I got to the ECs section...she completely lied about going to Ecuador and building steps and taking care of children for two weeks. She also fabricated her volunteer hours a ton(I know because I volunteer with her). When I say a ton, I mean turning about 30 hours in 500 hours. Not only that, she worked in an office with me not in an emergency department like she claims. Moreover, she also put down she is doing 200 hours shadowing in radiology and putting her cousin down as the contact, who is really just an ultrasound tech. And most egregious of all? The credit she is taking for a research poster presented at the University's undergraduate research conference that another one of my friend's did most of the work on. Lastly, she put down that she is part of the medical fraternity at school.

Furthermore, I do not think this girl is cut out for medical school. She just whines about how daddy won't pay for her to go more shopping. She hates poor people and constantly goes on about her ayn rand philosophy of caring about only herself. The only reason I tolerate her is because we've had many classes together and hang around most of the same circles. I want to believe everyone can redeem themselves later down the road, but I don't know if I would want this girl taking care of my mom or dad with the way she is lying. She reminds me of those physicians who give butt implants to unsuspecting victims even though she is only a Family Practioner, not a plastic surgeon.

TL;DR: Friend is lying alot on application and is a terrible human being. Should I alert AMCAS or any medical schools she applies to?
My response:
 
Brah, you don't know medical school admissions. There is this thing called "looking at the whole applicant." Applicants with stellar stats are rejected every year from med schools. You remind me of the gunner premeds who will do anything to get to med school. Would you lie? You haven't argued any moral or ethical point, just that I would be a tattle tell if did report.
You know the person you responded to is a RESIDENT, right?
 
ITT: a pre-med tells a recently graduated medical student that he doesn't know medical school admissions.

make like your avatar and let it go. seriously.
:bow:
 
Send an anonymous email to AMCAS and the schools she's applying to about her fabrications. They'll handle the rest if they want. The can try to contact her verifiers, if something doesn't add up then the schools will deal with her.
 
This entire situation would make for a very interesting MMI "what would to do" ethical question/scenario. I wonder if people would stick with their answers in front of an interviewer and I wonder what response, if any, they would be looking for...
 
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TBH, if you want to tell someone, tell someone. There are a lot of outcomes from this, none of it is really pretty, but if you feel like you want to take a stand then go take a stand. It's entirely possible that schools will ignore you, or do nothing. Alternately, she could get in trouble--or she could drag you down with her.

I wouldn't bother too much with all the "don't be a snitch" or "mind your own business" stuff. It's people's nature to be complacent and to look the other way even when bad things happen around them. It reminds me of the bystander effect--people would rather do nothing and not be involved. Neither is necessarily right or wrong, but understand where people's reticence toward action comes from and whether that resonates with your own beliefs about why you should or shouldn't act. There's no right answer here.
 
OP, I concur with my young colleague. Let it go, because your friend is setting up such a large trap for herself that she's going to walk right into it, eyes open, and get crucified at interviewed. Generally, when people have amazing ECs, we ask people about the, Mission trips, because they're so easy to inflate or confabulate about, are particular prompts for interview questions.

If it's absolutely killing you, then chat with her advisor or chair of the pre-med committee (if your school has one) and ask for advice about a "lying friend".

You can wait and see how it all plays out, because as Goro notes, ECs that spectacular may not pass the sniff test, and all it would take to topple her would be a few phone calls or some poor interview responses.

If, at the end of the cycle, you find out she has been admitted somewhere fabulous and you're still steaming, you could call the admissions office at the school(s) she was admitted to and suggest they do a quick reference check.

Or, as has been said, if your school has a medical school advisory committee, try 'the threat' tactic. But if you decide to go this route, be sure to cover your own backside.

There's a whole range of dishonesty from relatively benign 'spin' to exaggeration to outright fabrication. Some levels are a whole lot more tolerable than others...
 
I don't ask the "what would you do if you saw someone cheating on___?" question because 100% of the answers are "I'd tell the person to turn themselves in, or I'd do it for them". And, as proved by the OP, I know they're full of BS and they'd let any cheating incident slide.

All I can add is that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students, and there's a reason my clinical colleagues take professionalism very seriously.

This entire situation would make for a very interesting MMI "what would to do" ethical question/scenario. I wonder if people would stick with their answers in front of an interviewer and I wonder what response, if any, they would be looking for...
 
My response exactly to most of the posts in this thread

There is nothing ethical in asking to see someone else's AMCAS and then turning them in.
This entire situation would make for a very interesting MMI "what would to do" ethical question/scenario. I wonder if people would stick with their answers in front of an interviewer and I wonder what response, if any, they would be looking for...

There's a perfect answer, there's the worst answer ever, and then there's everything in between.

Give some blah blah blah about how doctors should be honest and how we should lead by example.
TALK TO THE PERSON THEMSELF. Don't just throw them to the lion's den. This is almost always the right course of action in these instances.

DON'T say it's not that big of a deal. That's the worst.

Medical school interviewers don't expect you to handle these situations perfectly at 21-22 years old without having had to ever really consider or face them. But they DO want to know you have a baseline sense of "lying is bad."
 
It's not that everyone does it, so it's ok. It's "Everyone does it, so the lying friend isn't gaining an advantage."
That isn't really a good point either though. I kept a log of my hours volunteering and shadowing, and I reported them exactly as I had them recorded. My hours were far more than her real hours, but her imaginary numbers plus extra stuff puts her leagues ahead of me in terms of volunteering and shadowing. I would be shocked if my application was not knocked down quite a few pegs in the last cycle by people like OP's "friend". Those people gained an advantage over me by cheating.
 
I am not sure what I am going to do yet. My PS is calling, so I will finish that first. Nobody seems to be pissed that she took credit for research she did not do. I'm angry about it and I didn't even do that research because it reminds me of the Bio101 story of Rosalind Franklin getting her DNA x-raycrystallograph stolen by Watson and Crick.
The professor of the research group said "I understand that [x] is taking credit for [y's] hours in the lab. In other circumstances, I would surely take this up to the office of academic integrity. However, I am in no position to call [x] and confront them about an AMCAS application, nor do I wish to at this moment. Thank you for alerting me to this though. If I am ever contacted about this year's poster by medical schools, I know that [x] is not responsible for the work done by [y]. Now enjoy your summer and congratulations on graduating!"
 
That isn't really a good point either though. I kept a log of my hours volunteering and shadowing, and I reported them exactly as I had them recorded. My hours were far more than her real hours, but her imaginary numbers plus extra stuff puts her leagues ahead of me in terms of volunteering and shadowing. I would be shocked if my application was not knocked down quite a few pegs in the last cycle by people like OP's "friend". Those people gained an advantage over me by cheating.

Again, I empathize with the sense of injustice. I'm going to be blunt with you though, because you're safely in school and thus can start viewing this more objectively. There are ALWAYS going to be outrages and unfairness. Is that a justification for them? No, of course not. Does that, however, give you a free pass to do whatever you want in retaliation? Again, of course not. People are going to pay attention to how you choose to respond, and what that reflects of your motivations and assumptions. There is only one appropriate avenue for the OP to report suspected cheating, and that is to their own school's premedical office, who have a bigger stake in not having dishonest representatives of their program than (s)he does, merely being a competitor of this other student. If OP does more than drop a quick line though, and really betrays commitment to sabotaging their colleague's application, that suggests they may not work very well with their colleagues in the work environment, or that they will be quick to judge and condemn, which is a VERY toxic attitude for a doctor.

As for the competition itself, I concede that the other candidate's unfair play puts them at an advantage relative to OP (which is an suspected but unconfirmed reason for the outrage). What do they do about it? They CAN try to torpedo this other applicant, but as explained in other posts taking such a destructive and volatile route raises serious questions about their OWN integrity and judgement - questions that are going to weigh pretty heavily on the mind of whoever writes a committee letter, or discusses their app with the other members of the admissions office. How about, besides a quick FYI given to the premed office, just working harder to compete with the inflated numbers? Keep in mind that the ECs get so pumped because of the glut of applicants in the first place - there simply are nowhere near enough seats in MD and DO programs combined to seat all students who establish themselves as academically capable, and professionally motivated in their PS. Med schools admissions is a seller's market - if the school is going to sell only so much tuition each cycle, they get the pick of the litter as to who gets the nod.

This brings me to perhaps my most important point - the most obstructive attitude in the application process is one of entitlement. EVERYone is entitled to an elementary education, and people are generally of the opinion that everyone should have at least access to undergraduate education as well. But medical education? We simply don't need that many doctors (we do need more than we're training, but not as many as are applying). As much as you want to be a doctor, you can't be one without a patient base, and we only need so many docs to meet everyone's needs. Therefore, don't view this as "I did everything right, why didn't I get in? It's because those people cheated/got lucky/had money!" It's more like, "Damn, it's a tough field out there. How do I top as many of them as possible, to look amazing to these schools?"

Sorry V5RED, I realize most of that wasn't really relevant to you anymore, but it was a good quote to build off of. Congratulations on your acceptance!

EDIT:
The professor of the research group said "I understand that [x] is taking credit for [y's] hours in the lab. In other circumstances, I would surely take this up to the office of academic integrity. However, I am in no position to call [x] and confront them about an AMCAS application, nor do I wish to at this moment. Thank you for alerting me to this though. If I am ever contacted about this year's poster by medical schools, I know that [x] is not responsible for the work done by [y]. Now enjoy your summer and congratulations on graduating!"

That was an appropriate step, contacting the research adviser - good move. His response, however, is that he is clearly not comfortable raising the alarm about [x]'s dishonesty. Reflect on why that might be - it should be very illustrative of the complex issues at play here. Also think about just how appropriate it would be for you to essentially go against his wishes, and raise hell yourself. I can still condone a quick notice at the Premed office, if you're willing to own that decision to strike, but you really ought to think twice.
 
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I am not sure what I am going to do yet. My PS is calling, so I will finish that first. Nobody seems to be pissed that she took credit for research she did not do. I'm angry about it and I didn't even do that research because it reminds me of the Bio101 story of Rosalind Franklin getting her DNA x-raycrystallograph stolen by Watson and Crick.
The professor of the research group said "I understand that [x] is taking credit for [y's] hours in the lab. In other circumstances, I would surely take this up to the office of academic integrity. However, I am in no position to call [x] and confront them about an AMCAS application, nor do I wish to at this moment. Thank you for alerting me to this though. If I am ever contacted about this year's poster by medical schools, I know that [x] is not responsible for the work done by [y]. Now enjoy your summer and congratulations on graduating!"

To put this into layman's terms--this is the professor telling you to "piss off." Don't you get it? :wtf:
 
Again, I empathize with the sense of injustice. I'm going to be blunt with you though, because you're safely in school and thus can start viewing this more objectively. There are ALWAYS going to be outrages and unfairness. Is that a justification for them? No, of course not. Does that, however, give you a free pass to do whatever you want in retaliation? Again, of course not. People are going to pay attention to how you choose to respond, and what that reflects of your motivations and assumptions. There is only one appropriate avenue for the OP to report suspected cheating, and that is to their own school's premedical office, who have a bigger stake in not having dishonest representatives of their program than (s)he does, merely being a competitor of this other student. If OP does more than drop a quick line though, and really betrays commitment to sabotaging their colleague's application, that suggests they may not work very well with their colleagues in the work environment, or that they will be quick to judge and condemn, which is a VERY toxic attitude for a doctor.

As for the competition itself, I concede that the other candidate's unfair play puts them at an advantage relative to OP (which is an suspected but unconfirmed reason for the outrage). What do they do about it? They CAN try to torpedo this other applicant, but as explained in other posts taking such a destructive and volatile route raises serious questions about their OWN integrity and judgement - questions that are going to weigh pretty heavily on the mind of whoever writes a committee letter, or discusses their app with the other members of the admissions office. How about, besides a quick FYI given to the premed office, just working harder to compete with the inflated numbers? Keep in mind that the ECs get so pumped because of the glut of applicants in the first place - there simply are nowhere near enough seats in MD and DO programs combined to seat all students who establish themselves as academically capable, and professionally motivated in their PS. Med schools admissions is a seller's market - if the school is going to sell only so much tuition each cycle, they get the pick of the litter as to who gets the nod.

This brings me to perhaps my most important point - the most obstructive attitude in the application process is one of entitlement. EVERYone is entitled to an elementary education, and people are generally of the opinion that everyone should have at least access to undergraduate education as well. But medical education? We simply don't need that many doctors (we do need more than we're training, but not as many as are applying). As much as you want to be a doctor, you can't be one without a patient base, and we only need so many docs to meet everyone's needs. Therefore, don't view this as "I did everything right, why didn't I get in? It's because those people cheated/got lucky/had money!" It's more like, "Damn, it's a tough field out there. How do I top as many of them as possible, to look amazing to these schools?"

Sorry V5RED, I realize most of that wasn't really relevant to you anymore, but it was a good quote to build off of. Congratulations on your acceptance!

Great post.
 
That isn't really a good point either though. I kept a log of my hours volunteering and shadowing, and I reported them exactly as I had them recorded. My hours were far more than her real hours, but her imaginary numbers plus extra stuff puts her leagues ahead of me in terms of volunteering and shadowing. I would be shocked if my application was not knocked down quite a few pegs in the last cycle by people like OP's "friend". Those people gained an advantage over me by cheating.

Well, no when you look at it as this 1 cheater vs you.

But this one cheater is also cheating against thousands of others who also cheated.

Even if she didn't cheat--YOU still have to compete with thousands of others that cheated. Take 1 out, and the equation doesn't change. You vs 2,000 cheaters isn't any different than you vs 1,999 cheaters.

It sucks. It's an unfortunate part of the process. But it is what it is.

As pattycake said--people are going to start paying attention to how you handle these situations. You'll not get an award that you really deserved. You won't get listed in a research publication that you did most of the dirty work for. You won't get a promotion to partner. Any number of scenarios may arise. Accept that it's part of life, it sucks, and be graceful about it.

Also as Pattycake said--as a Pre-Med or a Resident or whatever you're applying for going forward--focus on making YOUR application as outstanding as possible.
 
I don't ask the "what would you do if you saw someone cheating on___?" question because 100% of the answers are "I'd tell the person to turn themselves in, or I'd do it for them". And, as proved by the OP, I know they're full of BS and they'd let any cheating incident slide.

All I can add is that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students, and there's a reason my clinical colleagues take professionalism very seriously.
To be fair, sometimes the unprofessionalism charge is abused by medical school faculty to instill fear in med students.
 
You must be such a magnificent gentleman. How ya doing there, Elliot Rodgers?
 
I am not sure what I am going to do yet. My PS is calling, so I will finish that first. Nobody seems to be pissed that she took credit for research she did not do. I'm angry about it and I didn't even do that research because it reminds me of the Bio101 story of Rosalind Franklin getting her DNA x-raycrystallograph stolen by Watson and Crick.
The professor of the research group said "I understand that [x] is taking credit for [y's] hours in the lab. In other circumstances, I would surely take this up to the office of academic integrity. However, I am in no position to call [x] and confront them about an AMCAS application, nor do I wish to at this moment. Thank you for alerting me to this though. If I am ever contacted about this year's poster by medical schools, I know that [x] is not responsible for the work done by [y]. Now enjoy your summer and congratulations on graduating!"

I'm as shocked as you that no one else is enraged about this girl fabricating her entire works/activities section
 
I actually spoke to an interviewer (M4 who does one of the interview rounds at his school) who asks that exact same question. He said the textbook "correct answer" is to confront your friend, talk about it, and encourage him to turn himself in. If he doesn't, it is your obligation to report him.

Would anyone here actually report their best friend for cheating? Personally, I would just be concerned that he would be potentially screwed for life if he got caught and let him know this. Considering almost everyone has seen some form of cheating and I'm guessing almost no one has reported it, the question seems rigged. If you give the correct answer, you are probably lying. If you tell the truth, you are giving the "wrong answer."
That seems a little...overgeneralized.
Maybe in HS, but I never saw anyone in my ugrad cheating, despite innumerable opportunities (take-home closed-book finals, etc.) The closest I saw was ignoring the spirit of the instructions for a pass/fail 1-mo juggling class which doesn't count for credit, and happened because neither the students nor the prof cared at all about the assignment.
 
Strong logic. I wasn't aware condoning unethical behavior is itself considered ethical behavior

This is just ignorance.

Are you picking up arms to go rescue the missing Nigerian girls? No? Oh, I guess you condone it.

To further it though--read the first post. I personally get the impression the OP just doesn't like the other girl.

Then OP asked to see it, and subsequently wants to report something they found. So, you don't like someone and asked to see their stuff? That sounds fishy. And then your fishy behavior leads you to turn someone in? And we're going to act like THAT is ethical?
 
Apples to oranges

No, it's not.

You implied a lack of action=condoning something. So, YOU not going out to find those girls must mean you condone it. It can't cut both ways.

I edited the last post, but wanted to make sure you see it, so:

To further it though--read the first post. I personally get the impression the OP just doesn't like the other girl.

Then OP asked to see it, and subsequently wants to report something they found. So, you don't like someone and asked to see their stuff? That sounds fishy. And then your fishy behavior leads you to turn someone in? And we're going to act like THAT is ethical?
 
I'm as shocked as you that no one else is enraged about this girl fabricating her entire works/activities section

Is it annoying/upsetting/concerning/wrong that this girl is fabricating her application? Absolutely. If I were in OP's position and found out that a friend was making things up on her application, I would be annoyed and upset. Depending on how well I knew this friend, I would talk to her about it. I wouldn't look at her application and secretly report her to AMCAS or med schools. My advice was to let it go, not because it wasn't a big deal, but because in my opinion, this has a bigger change of blowing up in OP's face than it does in the girl's. AMCAS will do nothing. Medical schools will most likely do nothing, a few might call the contact information listed. Just look at the response the professor gave to OP. He's not comfortable blowing the whistle directly, but if contacted, he would tell the truth about the situation (even though in reality, there's a minimal to zero chance that he would be contacted). Meanwhile OP is liable for slander and the entire thing can blow up in his/her face.

It's not a black and white issue. If patient care was in the picture, then it becomes much more of a black and white issue. If you are a doctor and witness another doctor doing or saying something unethical, but it doesn't affect the care of a patient, the right course of action is to talk to that person and discuss the situation. You don't run and report the doctor to the ethics committee at the first sign. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard doctors make degrading remarks about our patients. Does it make me angry? Yes. Do I report it? Absolutely not. If what that doctor is doing or saying directly affects a patient, absolutely report it to the correct person(s). It's true that dishonest pre-meds become dishonest med students who become dishonest doctors. But it will catch up to her big time, sooner rather than later, if she lets this dishonesty influence how she treats patients.

Looking back on OP's description of the situation, it actually seems fabricated. Unless the girl is completely and utterly clueless, which I somehow doubt, who would let someone look at their application when they blatantly lied on it, and that person has enough knowledge of them to know it's a lie? Seems more plausible that OP just doesn't like the girl/is jealous (i.e. the last paragraph of OP's description, where s/he complains about how rich the girl is) and somehow got a chance to peek at her application.
 
I'm as shocked as you that no one else is enraged about this girl fabricating her entire works/activities section

It is upsetting to some degre. It sucks, and what she's doing is very wrong.

But it's hard to get enraged about:

1) Something that I'm sure literally thousands of people do every year, and
2) Will almost certainly catch up with her sooner or later.
 
SDN is filled with a bunch of hypocritical posters, it drives me crazy. They advocate altruism and good deeds by telling us to volunteer but go against morals and ethics in this case. Don't listen to any of these fools.

OP, listen here and listen good. I'm defiently not a "goody, goody" and in fact I'm the opposite. Don't rat on her now because snitches get stitches.

After she submits, let her know that she lied and tell her other people know as well and things might end up bad. Cause paranoia in her head. Slowly, she will go crazy. She might even turn herself in. And than you can sit back and laugh.

EDIT: I'm not joking
 
If anything, my school is too soft on unprofessional students! You'd think that dissing several of the clinical faculty to their faces would get one booted out for a year, but noooooooo!

To be fair, sometimes the unprofessionalism charge is abused by medical school faculty to instill fear in med students.
 
If anything, my school is too soft on unprofessional students! You'd think that dissing several of the clinical faculty to their faces would get one booted out for a year, but noooooooo!
Were they ****ty faculty? Were they Surgeons or OB-Gyns? Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe those faculty were abusing med students?
 
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