All Branch Topic (ABT) Special Pay restructuring in 2017

[BlackFrancis33]

I align myself with the frustration, but agree that I won't be flipping out until I have more information. I recall a few years back the Army tried to increase everyone's fellowship commitment. 1 year fellowships now incur a 2 year commitment, this wasn't always the case. It used to be 1 year for a 1 year fellowship. HRC tried to retroactively enforce this policy, essentially changing the rules for already signed and completed contracts, and a class action lawsuit was enacted. The net result was this policy not being retroactively enforced. I acknowledge we are ultimately highly trained instruments without rights, to a point. But if all of a sudden significant changes in pay occur without any allowance to re-negotiate contracts and previously signed commitments, this could (in the least) become a very uncomfortable situation.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[HighPriest]

.

 

[idq1i]

Before everyone flips out (we'll probably too late for that) all of the slides I have seen (and been briefed on twice now) that have actual numbers show a net change in pay that is essentially peanuts for the vast majority of people. We are talking 40 bucks less a month for a few years. Does it suck to see any money go away, yes but at the same time it means I don't have to wait on an annual notice that never comes out on time and I don't have to worry about whether some seaman decided to actually submit my paperwork.

The briefings I've seen are obviously Navy, but they likely aren't going to be different. The only caveat we were given is that nothing is for sure until the DOD level instruction is completed which was still in the chop chain.

Nothing is pointing towards a massive pay cut.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

Any pay cut is a slap in the face for the MC doctors who see patients. You want to cut spending? Stop paying clinical medicine bonuses to administrative 0-5/6s

 

[Perrotfish]

Any pay cut is a slap in the face for the MC doctors who see patients. You want to cut spending? Stop paying clinical medicine bonuses to administrative 0-5/6s

Don't you prefer physician administrators? This idea would basically mean no doctor would ever do an admin job again.

 

[deuist]

Don't you prefer physician administrators? This idea would basically mean no doctor would ever do an admin job again.

I have not been impressed with any the physician administrators yet. I would rather have the people with all of the medical training seeing patients instead of collecting bonuses to file paperwork during bankers' hours.

 

[backrow]

I have not been impressed with any the physician administrators yet. I would rather have the people with all of the medical training seeing patients instead of collecting bonuses to file paperwork during bankers' hours.

I'm in agreement that I would like to see physicians be physicians, but until they change the rules for promotion that isn't going to happen. At least in the Navy clinical medicine doesn't get you to O5 anymore. 44% in-zone promotion to O5 this year (62% if you include people who had already been passed over at least once).


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[Perrotfish]

I have not been impressed with any the physician administrators yet. I would rather have the people with all of the medical training seeing patients instead of collecting bonuses to file paperwork during bankers' hours.

I guess we disagree on this, which is fair enough. So far I have found provider administrators (NPs/PAs/Physicians) to have a better grasp of what a clinic can and can't do than nurses and non-clinical guys.

 

[grotto]

The briefs (2) I have seen on this seem to favor IP as being ASP+VSP+ISP, BSP locked at 6k/year, and then MSP - combined and distributed monthly as opposed to ASP in July and ISP in October.

From leaders in my community the big question is what rate they are going to set ISP and MSP at per specialty, as rates will be decided by personnel shortfalls in certain critical areas such as Pulm/cc, GS, NSGY, etc (i.e heavily deployable). Certain specialties such as cards, optho, and derm which are overmanned may take a hit.

This is specific to the Navy, but may have wider significance if we transition to a single joint command structure with NDAA17 changes to the medical corps.

 

[BlackFrancis33]

I'm in agreement that I would like to see physicians be physicians, but until they change the rules for promotion that isn't going to happen. At least in the Navy clinical medicine doesn't get you to O5 anymore. 44% in-zone promotion to O5 this year (62% if you include people who had already been passed over at least once).


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

I am surprised I haven't heard or seen more chatter about the Navy O-5 promotion rate. I know some great people, who are great physicians (and friends) who got passed over.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Wasn't it better than the last few years?

 

[azran]

Did anybody here get to see the webinar on special pay yesterday? I wasn't able to see it and don't see it posted online anywhere. Curious to know what was said.

 

[rkonmd]

Did anybody here get to see the webinar on special pay yesterday? I wasn't able to see it and don't see it posted online anywhere. Curious to know what was said.

Not sure if this is what you are referring to, but if anyone has any hard numbers or can clarify the line: "Basis of Flat Rate is Average of: VSP + MASP + Specialty Qualification = HPOIP" ...

-----
DoD/Assistant Secretary of Defense for Health Affairs (ASD(HA)) standards

(can be supplemented by Army)

•HPOBCP
–Must possess a current, valid, unrestricted license
–Must be an ABMS or AOA recognized specialty board
–Specialty must match board certification; only one HPOBCP can be received
–Annual rate established by ASD(HA): Flat Rate $6,000/yr.; paid on monthly basis
–Requires contract; obligation served concurrently with all other ADOs
•
•HPOIP
–Must possess a current, valid, unrestricted license
–Must be credentialed, privileged, and practicing; waiver case by case exception
–Eligible upon completion of qualifying training (Medical School/Internship/Residency/Fellowship)
plus 3-months

–Annual rate established by ASD(HA): Flat Rate TBD based on PGY1, PGY2, or Specialty; paid on
monthly basis (Basis of Flat Rate is Average of: VSP + MASP + Specialty Qualification = HPOIP)

–Requires contract; obligation served concurrently with all other ADOs
•
•HPORB
–Must possess a current, unrestricted license
–Must be credentialed, privileged, and practicing; waiver case by case exception
–Eligible upon completion of qualifying training (Residency/Fellowship Graduate) plus 3-months
-and- either completed AB/HPLRP ADO

-or- completed pre-commissioning education/training (i.e. ROTC, USMA, USUHS, HPSP, FAP) ADO

–Lump sum annual payment; TBD- current 2, 3, and 4-year MSP rates should apply
–Requires contract for 2, 3, or 4-yr ADO; served after completion of any education/training
(i.e. HPLRP, Residency, Fellowship) ADO

 

[Neogenesis]

I don't like the terminology of "average of". Meaning the flat rate is determined by the average of the current ISPs? Or the average of what? Would be nice if they put out a list by specialty.

 

[Charlie0318]

So based on my reading interns/residents will no longer receive any bonus pays? It will just be base + BAH + BAS?

And furthermore for anyone in fellowship you will still get BCP (as long as you are board certified) but will now no longer get any other bonus???

If this is correct it would SIGNIFICANTLY alter one of the big benefits of military medicine, which is decent income while in a training position.

 

[backrow]

So based on my reading interns/residents will no longer receive any bonus pays? It will just be base + BAH + BAS?

And furthermore for anyone in fellowship you will still get BCP (as long as you are board certified) but will now no longer get any other bonus???

If this is correct it would SIGNIFICANTLY alter one of the big benefits of military medicine, which is decent income while in a training position.

From what I have been told on multiple occasions there will be a bonus structure for interns/residents. My guess is it will be slightly lower than the current amount due to how VSP goes up and in the new system it will not. If I had to guess I would say they will get 8K a year as a bonus.

Fellows will get the bonuses for their base specialty (if my memory serves me correct) as I don't recall anything different and that would have clicked in my head as other big changes did.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[SeminoleFan3]

Any idea if the change in pay is projected to be funded in the stop gap budget bill or are we likely waiting until later in a December?

 

[Neogenesis]

Just received an email from my department head outlining the new pay scheme. I'll post more later, but looks like there might be a little increase in overall pay (depending on the individual situation)

 

[DD214_DOC]

Just received an email from my department head outlining the new pay scheme. I'll post more later, but looks like there might be a little increase in overall pay (depending on the individual situation)

Very interested in the follow-up. Thanks.

Also, looks like the OCT bonus is coming late. I have always had a pending deposit to my account by now, but not this time.

 

[backrow]

Just received an email from my department head outlining the new pay scheme. I'll post more later, but looks like there might be a little increase in overall pay (depending on the individual situation)

Unless they changes the rates from what were previously announced/discussed there is no significant increase in pay for the vast majority of people and many will see a relative/unrealized decrease in their pay compared to what they would get in the current system. (Specifically folks who have to do a GMO tour and those who are in specialties that aren't Board Certified for 1-2 years after residency)


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[Perrotfish]

Very interested in the follow-up. Thanks.

Also, looks like the OCT bonus is coming late. I have always had a pending deposit to my account by now, but not this time.

We were told not to apply for that bonus. Did you apply for it?

 

[Slevin]

Very interested in the follow-up. Thanks.

Also, looks like the OCT bonus is coming late. I have always had a pending deposit to my account by now, but not this time.

Mine just hit an hour ago with USAA. Wasn't showing as pending before it hit

 

[Ziehl-Neelsen]

 

[Neogenesis]

For your viewing pleasure

 

[Neogenesis]

So it looks like pay will remain about the same (again, can only speak to my particular specialty and situation, YMMV). From what I read, we can convert over to the new structure at any point during FY 17. The bonus to this is that we can convert to align on 1 Jul (when we would have historically gotten ASP) and that would allow people to not have to take a pay cut equal to ISP in their last year in order to get out in July. My understanding is that in that situation, because we had already received ISP for FY 17 (mine showed up in my account this AM by the way), we would technically "owe back" the remainder of that pay and wouldn't see the monthly increase that would equal that pay until 1 Oct 18.

 

[Perrotfish]

So it looks like pay will remain about the same (again, can only speak to my particular specialty and situation, YMMV). From what I read, we can convert over to the new structure at any point during FY 17. The bonus to this is that we can convert to align on 1 Jul (when we would have historically gotten ASP) and that would allow people to not have to take a pay cut equal to ISP in their last year in order to get out in July. My understanding is that in that situation, because we had already received ISP for FY 17 (mine showed up in my account this AM by the way), we would technically "owe back" the remainder of that pay and wouldn't see the monthly increase that would equal that pay until 1 Oct 18.

Did you sign for the ISP as in previous years, or did it just appear without you signing anything? I have not received the bonus, and we were told not to sign for anything, so I a wondering if my command dropped the ball here

 

[Neogenesis]

I signed for it about 6 Wes ago. If you didn't sign, you won't get it. Technically speaking you should be able to sign up to 30 days (I think that's the right time) after, but with the new CSP being enacted, I don't know honestly.

 

[pgg]

So it looks like pay will remain about the same (again, can only speak to my particular specialty and situation, YMMV).

Mine as well.

About the same. For my specialty (anesthesiology), assuming board certification,
it works out to no change at all, except for a $500/year drop during years 6-8 and 10-12.

No changes to MSP --> RB conversion. A 4-year MSP would gross an extra $74K/year,
and it's still an additional $74K.

Numbers below for a year-to-year conctract.

@ 6-8 years

old   15,000 ASP     new   59,000 IP
      36,000 ISP
      12,000 VSP
       2,500 BCP            6,000 BCP

total 65,500               65,000

@ 8-10 years, VSP declined, BCP stays the same

old   15,000 ASP     new   59,000 IP
      36,000 ISP
      11,500 VSP
       2,500 BCP            6,000 BCP

total 65,000               65,000

@ 10-12 years, VSP declined, BCP increased

old   15,000 ASP     new   59,000 IP
      36,000 ISP
      11,000 VSP
       3,500 BCP            6,000 BCP

total 65,500               65,000

@ 12-14 years, VSP declined, BCP increased

old   15,000 ASP     new   59,000 IP
      36,000 ISP
      10,000 VSP
       4,000 BCP            6,000 BCP

total 65,000               65,000
    
@ 14-18 years, VSP declined, BCP increased

old   15,000 ASP     new   59,000 IP
      36,000 ISP
       9,000 VSP
       5,000 BCP            6,000 BCP

total 65,000               65,000

It's still a pay cut by inflation.

It's also a pay cut via delay - a lump sum paid on July 1st (or Oct 1st) is worth more than the same amount of money paid monthly over the following year.

The only positive I see is that everyone gets realigned to July 1st, so no one will forgo ISP their final year in order to separate on time.

Meh. I hope someone got a nice fitrep bullet out of all this handwaving.

 

[psychbender]

I'm getting a little confused reading all the recent stuff. This is my last year, and I did not sign for the October bonus, as I need to get out on time to start fellowship 1 July. Are you guys saying that I could have signed for this year's bonus, had it realign to July 1, and still get out on time? Or is that only an option for those getting out next year and beyond?

 

[Neogenesis]

Sorry psychbender, you're kinda hosed. This will only be advantageous to those that will get out in 2018

 

[psychbender]

Hey, that's fine. I'm not going to stay in another year, just to get the bonus for my last year. I was just briefly hopeful that there was some small chance that I could receive the bonus this year, yet remain on track to leave this summer

 

[Onefellswoop87]

Mine as well.

About the same. For my specialty (anesthesiology), assuming board certification,
it works out to no change at all, except for a $500/year drop during years 6-8 and 10-12.

No changes to MSP --> RB conversion. A 4-year MSP would gross an extra $74K/year,
and it's still an additional $74K.

Numbers below for a year-to-year conctract.

@ 6-8 years

old   15,000 ASP     new   59,000 IP
      36,000 ISP
      12,000 VSP
       2,500 BCP            6,000 BCP

total 65,500               65,000

@ 8-10 years, VSP declined, BCP stays the same

old   15,000 ASP     new   59,000 IP
      36,000 ISP
      11,500 VSP
       2,500 BCP            6,000 BCP

total 65,000               65,000

@ 10-12 years, VSP declined, BCP increased

old   15,000 ASP     new   59,000 IP
      36,000 ISP
      11,000 VSP
       3,500 BCP            6,000 BCP

total 65,500               65,000

@ 12-14 years, VSP declined, BCP increased

old   15,000 ASP     new   59,000 IP
      36,000 ISP
      10,000 VSP
       4,000 BCP            6,000 BCP

total 65,000               65,000
   
@ 14-18 years, VSP declined, BCP increased

old   15,000 ASP     new   59,000 IP
      36,000 ISP
       9,000 VSP
       5,000 BCP            6,000 BCP

total 65,000               65,000

It's still a pay cut by inflation.

It's also a pay cut via delay - a lump sum paid on July 1st (or Oct 1st) is worth more than the same amount of money paid monthly over the following year.

The only positive I see is that everyone gets realigned to July 1st, so no one will forgo ISP their final year in order to separate on time.

Meh. I hope someone got a nice fitrep bullet out of all this handwaving.

Admittedly I'm not as well versed in financed and taxes I would like to be, but since the lump sum gets seemingly taxed heavily, is it still a pay cut via delay? It seems like my yearly GMO bonus gets taxed at a significant percentage more so than my regular pay, so the monthly prorated would be a better deal for us lowly workers. Thanks.

 

[Mace1370]

I'm still a resident, and therefore have never received a bonus, but were the "old" bonuses put under a special tax category or were they just considered income and taxed by federal, state, etc. accordingly? Will the new bonus structure simply be treated as income for tax purposes?

 

[Slevin]

I'm still a resident, and therefore have never received a bonus, but were the "old" bonuses put under a special tax category or were they just considered income and taxed by federal, state, etc. accordingly? Will the new bonus structure simply be treated as income for tax purposes?

The old bonuses were taxed as regular income at least for me they were

 

[Ziehl-Neelsen]

Admittedly I'm not as well versed in financed and taxes I would like to be

It would be in your best interest to become more well-versed in this area. Money is freedom, and if you desire to be free, learn to make money work for you.

since the lump sum gets seemingly taxed heavily, is it still a pay cut via delay?

Taxes are taxes.

A 25% marginal tax rate on a lump sum payment of $65,000 is $16,250.
A 25% marginal tax rate on 12 payments of $5,416.66 (65,000/12) is $1354.17, which multiplied by 12 (the number of payments you'll receive over the year), is $16,250.

It's a paycut via delay due to the time value of money. http://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/timevalueofmoney.asp

It seems like my yearly GMO bonus gets taxed at a significant percentage more so than my regular pay, so the monthly prorated would be a better deal for us lowly workers.

It may seem that way for a number of reasons, but I can assure you it's not. Bonuses are always withheld at the 25% rate. If you are in a lower tax bracket than the 25% bracket, you'll get the difference back when you file your taxes. The reason that the monthly paycheck seems to be taxed at a lower rate is because the monthly paycheck includes a number of entitlements that are tax exempt (BAH and BAS).

 

[Ziehl-Neelsen]

I'm still a resident, and therefore have never received a bonus, but were the "old" bonuses put under a special tax category or were they just considered income and taxed by federal, state, etc. accordingly? Will the new bonus structure simply be treated as income for tax purposes?

As mentioned above, the bonus is counted as income for state and federal purposes but the bonuses are FICA exempt.

 

[Neogenesis]

Hey, that's fine. I'm not going to stay in another year, just to get the bonus for my last year. I was just briefly hopeful that there was some small chance that I could receive the bonus this year, yet remain on track to leave this summer

Nope. It's just those of us lucky enough to have a long commitment that get to enjoy this new perk

 

[pgg]

Admittedly I'm not as well versed in financed and taxes I would like to be, but since the lump sum gets seemingly taxed heavily, is it still a pay cut via delay? It seems like my yearly GMO bonus gets taxed at a significant percentage more so than my regular pay, so the monthly prorated would be a better deal for us lowly workers. Thanks.

The absolute first thing you need to understand is the difference between taxes that are withheld from your wages, and the taxes you pay. They are not the same.

The taxes that are withheld from your biweekly wages are withheld at a % determined by your level of income, and the number of exemptions you claim.

Bonuses are classified "supplemental wages" and are withheld at a flat 25%. This may be more or less than the % withheld from your regular wages (probably more if you're in the military).

The government takes this money and holds onto it because you can't be trusted not to spend it on hookers and blow before April 15th the following year. On April 15th when you file your taxes, you and the IRS "agree" on what you owe and must pay. If they withheld more, you get a refund. If they didn't withhold enough, you write a check, or you work out a payment plan, or you flee the country.

The timing of payments to you, and the timing of taxes you pay to the IRS, within a calendar year, do not affect the tax you pay in the end.

(I'm ignoring some special cases, like penalties for failing to make appropriate quarterly payments on 1099 income.)

 

[Onefellswoop87]

The absolute first thing you need to understand is the difference between taxes that are withheld from your wages, and the taxes you pay. They are not the same.

The taxes that are withheld from your biweekly wages are withheld at a % determined by your level of income, and the number of exemptions you claim.

Bonuses are classified "supplemental wages" and are withheld at a flat 25%. This may be more or less than the % withheld from your regular wages (probably more if you're in the military).

The government takes this money and holds onto it because you can't be trusted not to spend it on hookers and blow before April 15th the following year. On April 15th when you file your taxes, you and the IRS "agree" on what you owe and must pay. If they withheld more, you get a refund. If they didn't withhold enough, you write a check, or you work out a payment plan, or you flee the country.

The timing of payments to you, and the timing of taxes you pay to the IRS, within a calendar year, do not affect the tax you pay in the end.

(I'm ignoring some special cases, like penalties for failing to make appropriate quarterly payments on 1099 income.)

Thank you @pgg and @Ziehl-Nielsen for the explanation. I guess it's just a bit of sticker-shock seeing the amount withheld each July with the GMO bonus because not everything else is taxed, such as BAH/BAS, as y'all mentioned.

 

[HighPriest]

Hey, that's fine. I'm not going to stay in another year, just to get the bonus for my last year. I was just briefly hopeful that there was some small chance that I could receive the bonus this year, yet remain on track to leave this summer

That's great. I'm in the same position, and I ain't even mad. It's amazing how much getting out of this $#!T can be worth. More than the ISP, it seems.

 

[155HE]

For your viewing pleasure

Just finished residency a few months ago. I'm Navy. An Army coresident in my class received his ISP in his account as a lump sum. Another classmate who is Army did not.

I do not understand how such dysfunction when it comes to our pay is tolerated. Unclear as to why pay is left to the separate services. I definitely will be emailing Navy BUMED special pays to politely query why they haven't gotten their act together with our special pay NAVADMIN. And why have they taken so long to figure out the consolidated pay plan when they have had 8 years (2 presidential terms) to get their **** together since NDAA 2008 was passed.

IHTFP.

 

[Mace1370]

It would be in your best interest to become more well-versed in this area. Money is freedom, and if you desire to be free, learn to make money work for you.



Taxes are taxes.

A 25% marginal tax rate on a lump sum payment of $65,000 is $16,250.
A 25% marginal tax rate on 12 payments of $5,416.66 (65,000/12) is $1354.17, which multiplied by 12 (the number of payments you'll receive over the year), is $16,250.

It's a paycut via delay due to the time value of money. http://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/timevalueofmoney.asp



It may seem that way for a number of reasons, but I can assure you it's not. Bonuses are always withheld at the 25% rate. If you are in a lower tax bracket than the 25% bracket, you'll get the difference back when you file your taxes. The reason that the monthly paycheck seems to be taxed at a lower rate is because the monthly paycheck includes a number of entitlements that are tax exempt (BAH and BAS).

Thanks for the explanation.

I agree and understand your point about this being a paycut due to the time value of money. However, considering that many people avoided taking their October bonus in their final year to avoid having to extend (and now it sounds like they won't have to) wouldn't this work out to about even?

 

[navdoc47]

The army got their ISP.

Did Air Force get theirs?

Navy knows their physicians are too dumb to demand equal pay - can't even apply for ISP

 

[SeminoleFan3]

Ugh, how does this even happen? I can't even sign for my bonus yet, but some Army colleagues have already been paid. Similar to how the Army pins on O-4 6 years after they graduate medical school, but the Navy basically makes about 65% of people wait until August/September to do it (thus another few thousand dollars difference from the Army).

 

[SeminoleFan3]

Does anyone know how the timing works? Are we signing in October, but it's somehow prorated from July? The increase in VSP (from 416.66/month to 1,000/month)...will we get the extra $500/month from July forward, or it just starts in October, and we'll re-sign in July 2017 (since ASP was released in July)?

 

[pgg]

I do not understand how such dysfunction when it comes to our pay is tolerated.

The simple answer is that it isn't tolerated by most people. Most people get out as soon as they can. That's a pretty emphatic statement of intolerance.

Most of the rest of us who stay tolerate it because on the balance, the pension prize on the other side matters more than annual lump pays being late.

 

[Perrotfish]

So my command's pay person is still saying all requests for ISP are on hold, and he will not submit any paperwork for ISP. I am getting worried that may entire command is going to miss the window to sign for this. Is there anyone here Navy has received ISP? If so could you please PM me the name of your pay person, so that I can get them in touch with my pay person to sort this out? Or is it only Army that has made this work so far?

 

[narcusprince]

So my command's pay person is still saying all requests for ISP are on hold, and he will not submit any paperwork for ISP. I am getting worried that may entire command is going to miss the window to sign for this. Is there anyone here Navy has received ISP? If so could you please PM me the name of your pay person, so that I can get them in touch with my pay person to sort this out? Or is it only Army that has made this work so far?

I have not gotten my bonus. What window are you referring to?

 

[Perrotfish]

I have not gotten my bonus. What window are you referring to?

If you can sign for the bonus, but don't sign for it by 30OCT, you just miss your bonus for that year. There is only a 3 month window to sign. That being said it sounds like no one in the navy can sign right now, so I guess its a non-issue.

 

[155HE]

Recent message from BUMED special pays/M1 to a colleague of mine states that:
1. the FY17 special pays NAVADMIN has not been released yet
2. if you submit a request for your ISP (now called IP) within 30 days of the release of the FY17 NAVADMIN, you will get prorated funds from 01 Oct to the date the NAVADMIN was released; this will be a lump sum payment, after which you should start getting your IP as a monthly payment (with your ASP subtracted if you already got that)
3. you cannot submit an ISP/IP request until the FY17 NAVADMIN is released (so, if you already submitted a request, it won't be honored and you'll have to do it again after the message is released)

Still frustrated that this can't be done on time...

 

[Gastrapathy]

Look at the upside, since they are deferring the bulk of the bonus into 2017 anyway, it won't have the same tax consequences to get paid in Jan that it did the last time they did this.