I can't believe this happened!

[zuneski]

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Hello all,

I've just become aware of something that is happening at my university and I had to post this. I signed up for an animal anatomy/physiology lab for the spring semester. What made me sick was that my lab is held in a meat science facility...a place that actually slaughters animals! I had no idea that this happened not only at my university, but in the same building as my lab. We took a tour on the first day, and we saw the "kill floor". My classmates were laughing and making jokes through the whole thing. Some of them even asked if they would be able to see the slaughters. I was so enraged and nauseated by the environment that I just left. I couldn't believe how sick my classmates were! How could I go back to that lab, knowing that animals were being slaughtered literally right down the hall?! I since dropped the lab.

This whole event was incredibly upsetting and sad to me. It makes me wonder if I'm too emotional about animals to be a veterinarian. I love science, though. I am a vegetarian and an animal rights supporter. I understand that slaughterhouses exist, but to have it in my face like that was overwhelming. I just have very little tolerance for animal cruelty. Although I've contacted the vet schools I applied to about this subject, I am somewhat afraid of the ethical issues I may face as a vet (even though I have a lot of assisting experience)...are any of you concerned about this? 😕

 

[Bearby]

Hello all,

I've just become aware of something that is happening at my university and I had to post this. I signed up for an animal anatomy/physiology lab for the spring semester. What made me sick was that my lab is held in a meat science facility...a place that actually slaughters animals! I had no idea that this happened not only at my university, but in the same building as my lab. We took a tour on the first day, and we saw the "kill floor". My classmates were laughing and making jokes through the whole thing. Some of them even asked if they would be able to see the slaughters. I was so enraged and nauseated by the environment that I just left. I couldn't believe how sick my classmates were! How could I go back to that lab, knowing that animals were being slaughtered literally right down the hall?! I since dropped the lab.

This whole event was incredibly upsetting and sad to me. It makes me wonder if I'm too emotional about animals to be a veterinarian. I love science, though. I am a vegetarian and an animal rights supporter. I understand that slaughterhouses exist, but to have it in my face like that was overwhelming. I just have very little tolerance for animal cruelty. Although I've contacted the vet schools I applied to about this subject, I am somewhat afraid of the ethical issues I may face as a vet (even though I have a lot of assisting experience)...are any of you concerned about this? 😕

So here are my thoughts. First of all, people make jokes and laugh when they're nervous and uncomfortable, so don't judge people too quickly for their responses to situations that are out of the norm. Secondly, the slaughter of animals for meat as far as I know is not considered animal cruelty. If it were, we would all be vegetarians or would be buying our meat on the black market instead of in grocery stores. Food animal welfare is a topic that is very controversial and I know that I disagree with some of the practices of raising the animals that are then slaughtered, but could you image what the world would be like if all the slaughterhouses shut down right now? Again, everyone would be vegetarians because it would be so hard to come by good meat. I have nothing against vegetarianism or veganism, but I personally enjoy a burger and some grilled chicken.

I think it may have been a little bit drastic for you to drop the class, especially since it's required by many vet schools and you won't necessarily be dealing with the slaughterhouse itself during your labs. The fact of the matter is, somewhere in your career in veterinary medicine you're going to have to deal with animals being killed for reasons that you may not agree with. If you aren't able to handle it, maybe this isn't the career for you, but I don't want to push you away.

Depending on what type of veterinary medicine you go into you're going to see different ethical issues. Things from humane housing and slaughter, to convenience euthanasias.

 

[dlf]

All of my animal sciences classes are held in the same building where animals are slaughtered. In all honesty, you may face a lot of problems because in my experiences, animal sciences classes focus a lot on the food animal aspects of the veterinary world. One of my classes involved looking at carcasses and learning about all the different meats and such. Food management is a huge part of veterinary medicine and you're going to have to learn about food animals and the industry in vet school.
Plus, veterinarians tend to be pro animal welfare, not animal rights.
Not trying to steer you away from the profession, but I think these are some things to think about before you decide to devote your life to going to vet school.

 

[nyanko]

I am...an animal rights supporter.

I've contacted the vet schools I applied to about this subject

 

[chii chan]

In order to graduate with a bachelor of science from my alma mater in my major, I had to take a "meats class" (now renamed meat science). One of the 4 labs met in the abbatoir we had on campus (was closed after i took it so they could build a new one) and actually went through the process of live to carcass. I remember visiting once to measure back fat on pork but never actively participated in the harvest (p.c. term for slaughter) lab. I also remember taking a field trip to foster farms in my required poultry class and actually walking through the kill room and bleed room there. It was gruesome to put it lightly.

It is not uncommon to have a harvesting lab on campus, but more important, you need to be able to handle yourself maturely. I realize there are many reasons why people do not eat meat and you are voting with your fork by doing so. But this is just one of the many facets of animal medicine and is one that is always in the public eye. Ethical issues are everywhere. Even if you do eat meat, choosing free range/organic over conventionally grown meat delves into ethical issues. If your teacher announces that you will be participating or watching this lab, express your thoughts and feelings and let him/her know it makes you uncomfortable and you'd rather not participate. Just try to keep things in perspective and don't overreact. 99% of people make jokes when they are uncomfortable with a situation. Your classmates are probably not black-hearted, but are unsure how they really feel about it and not able to express it properly.

 

[Angelus9]

It makes me wonder if I'm too emotional about animals to be a veterinarian.

Wonder no longer.

I am a vegetarian and an animal rights supporter. I understand that slaughterhouses exist, but to have it in my face like that was overwhelming.

As as a veterinarian, you're going to have a lot of stuff "in your face like that." Good grief.

There are many, many vegetarian veterinarians out there. Animal rights supporter freaking out that you (gasp!) have to study dead animals in a location where animals are killed - yeah, overemotional and totally not prepared for real life.

I just have very little tolerance for animal cruelty.

The fact that you immediately and automatically equate food animal slaughter unequivocally with "cruelty" is misguided, unfair, and frankly, just plain stupid. Ok, let's be nice and say what - ignorant? uneducated? misinformed? all of the above? - on your part.

bearby's response is great, please read it carefully. It's also much more tactful than my response but really, silly-willies like you are hard to take.

 

[HopefulAg]

A&M has a slaughter house on campus (and probably other schools as well) and it's used to, well, teach people about slaughtering. It's part of the animal sciences department and quite a handy little addition for those wanting to go into that field. Where else are they to learn about it? It is a university after all.

I may be biased though; I took that class and kind of enjoyed it. Not the killing of the animals bit but learning the process, cuts, and what not. Was pretty cool.



I think you're over-reacting just a wee little bit.

 

[OliveOyl]

I agree with ag on thinking that if I would have had the opportunity to take that class I am quite certain that I would have enjoyed it. I did some work with a food animal vet and until that point, thought I only wanted to specialize in equine. After my food animal experience though, I am very interested in doing both equine and food animal. Using animals as food has been done by all of mankind and I see no reason to stop using animals as a food source. I am actually quite envious that you had the opportunity to take a class like this and dropped it. I wanted to major in animal science but could not b/c I did not have a university close to me that offered it and I settled for Biology at a school that had very few animal related biology courses b/c it is geared towards medical school for most biology majors. I was however fortunate enough to work with some of the lab animal veterinarians at the med school. . . another interesting area of vet med. I think you should definately attempt to get at least a little bit of experience in both the food animal and lab animal fields before pursuing a career as a veterinarian. You may be better suited for something a little more. . . . I don't know, can't think of the word, but you do sound a bit sensitive.

 

[Klhughes]

The fact that you immediately and automatically equate food animal slaughter unequivocally with "cruelty" is misguided, unfair, and frankly, just plain stupid. Ok, let's be nice and say what - ignorant? uneducated? misinformed? all of the above? - on your part.

I completely agree with this.
As part of our zoonoses course we had to watch videos and learn about the different slaughter types as well. Vets are an important part of the procedure to make sure that these are done humanely and if it is done correctly there is nothing inhumane about it. The videos made me sad to watch (none of us want to watch an animal basically walking to its death) but it's not going to make me give up eating meat.
I hope for your sake you didn't tell the schools that you are an animal rightist because some schools have had problems with animal rights groups because often times veterinarians and animal rightist have very different view points on what is right. I have to wonder how you will deal with dissections. I know there are ways around having to do dissections if you have problems with it but personally even as just a pet owner I don't want someone touching my own animals that didn't get their hands dirty and learn from real animal carcasses.

 

[OliveOyl]

You may very well have your decision made for you on whether or not you want a career in vet med. You will almost certainly be asked a question in an interview concerning lab animal and/or food animal. If your response is anywhere related to this post and your response to the class that you dropped, you will likely have your fate decided for you.

 

[OliveOyl]

.

 

[Tech2Vet]

I have to say that I'm really surprised by some of the reactions to this post. I think that zuneski has some valid points and I would feel similar to him/her about having to take a class in a slaughterhouse. I am a vegetarian as well and an animal rights advocate. I have also been in the veterinary business for almost a decade and although there are some difficult times that you have to face in that position, you in no way have to let go of your ethics. In fact, there are several vet schools that have intentionally become more animal rights friendly, such as Tufts and Western.
It does worry me that future veterinarians are laughing at this subject. I can understand that some are not interested in animal rights, but surely you should have some professionalism on the matter and take others opinions into consideration.

 

[chris03333]

I have to say that I'm really surprised by some of the reactions to this post. I think that zuneski has some valid points and I would feel similar to him/her about having to take a class in a slaughterhouse. I am a vegetarian as well and an animal rights advocate. I have also been in the veterinary business for almost a decade and although there are some difficult times that you have to face in that position, you in no way have to let go of your ethics. In fact, there are several vet schools that have intentionally become more animal rights friendly, such as Tufts and Western.
It does worry me that future veterinarians are laughing at this subject. I can understand that some are not interested in animal rights, but surely you should have some professionalism on the matter and take others opinions into consideration.

Excuse me...no vet school is "animal rights" friendly. Try Animal welfare friendly. I am a Western Graduate and take high offense to saying my school is friendly to animal rights (which means we should not have pets, so does not work with a vet school philosophy). Western requires every student to do a clinical rotation in lab animal and large animal medicine, along with zoo animal medicine, hardly something any animal rights supporter would call friendly. Don't label schools especially if you have no frickin clue what you are talking about.😎

 

[Tech2Vet]

Animal rights may mean different things to different people. I don't know of any animal rights advocates that I have come into contact with that are against the veterinarian industry or especially against people having pets?! I have spoken to both of those schools in the past, so I do know something about their programs. I am talking more about ceasing terminal surgeries and some teaching styles that they've adopted. I would definitely consider that both animal welfare and animal rights friendly.

 

[chris03333]

Animal rights may mean different things to different people. I don't know of any animal rights advocates that I have come into contact with that are against the veterinarian industry or especially against people having pets?! I have spoken to both of those schools in the past, so I do know something about their programs. I am talking more about ceasing terminal surgeries and some teaching styles that they've adopted. I would definitely consider that both animal welfare and animal rights friendly.

http://www.peta.org/campaigns/ar-petaonpets.asp

"We at PETA very much love the animal companions who share our homes, but we believe that it would have been in the animals' best interests if the institution of "pet keeping"—i.e., breeding animals to be kept and regarded as "pets"—never existed. The international pastime of domesticating animals has created an overpopulation crisis; as a result, millions of unwanted animals are destroyed every year as "surplus." This selfish desire to possess animals and receive love from them causes immeasurable suffering, which results from manipulating their breeding, selling or giving them away casually, and depriving them of the opportunity to engage in their natural behavior. Their lives are restricted to human homes where they must obey commands and can only eat, drink, and even urinate when humans allow them to."

 

[Klhughes]

Animal rights may mean different things to different people. I don't know of any animal rights advocates that I have come into contact with that are against the veterinarian industry or especially against people having pets?! I have spoken to both of those schools in the past, so I do know something about their programs. I am talking more about ceasing terminal surgeries and some teaching styles that they've adopted. I would definitely consider that both animal welfare and animal rights friendly.

This is from an animal rights group themselves...

"Animal rights supporters believe that it is morally wrong to use or exploit animals in any way and that human beings should not do so. Animal welfare supporters believe that it can be morally acceptable for human beings to use or exploit animals, as long as: the suffering of the animals is either eliminated or reduced to the minimum and there is no practicable way of achieving the same end without using animals"


http://www.animalliberationfront.com/ALFront/FAQs/AW_vs_AR.htm


We were also told recently that we cannot invite certain animal rights groups to school because they are categorized as terrorist groups (ALF, ELF, PETA). We had been hoping to get a round table discussion going to fight against some of the misinformation that is out there from animal rights groups but didn't think it would be taken seriously without having both sides present. People need to learn the difference between animal rights and animal welfare.

 

[Tech2Vet]

Not many animal rights supporters (that I know anyway) agree with everything PETA takes a stance on. In fact, many in the animal rights community think that PETA does more harm than good.
Just so you know, a lot of us do things like assist in passing bills through legislature when it comes to issues such as puppy mills and factory farming. We're not all out liberating slaughterhouse animals into the streets and throwing red paint on people.

 

[chris03333]

Not many animal rights supporters (that I know anyway) agree with everything PETA takes a stance on. In fact, many in the animal rights community think that PETA does more harm than good.
Just so you know, a lot of us do things like assist in passing bills through legislature when it comes to issues such as puppy mills and factory farming. We're not all out liberating slaughterhouse animals into the streets and throwing red paint on people.

Sounds more like animal welfare to me. I will stop now because this is one subject that I fully admit to being completely closed minded about. so we will have to agree to disagree

 

[Angelus9]

I think that zuneski has some valid points and I would feel similar to him/her about having to take a class in a slaughterhouse.

What are the valid points?

You sound like a typical AR (as opposed to animal welfare advocate): No idea of reality. Where do you think the carcasses come from that veterinarians study? Where did you think? The OP signed up for an Anatomy/Physiology LAB and was horrified that they came from a place where dead animals come from! C'MON!!!

And typical AR, close your eyes run away screaming with never an attempt to LEARN something or to see a side that isn't the same as your pre-conceived notions. I work a LOT with animal welfare and follow AR groups very closely, btw, so I'm extremely familiar with this close-minded attitude.

And instead of staying and trying to learn and maybe actually improve the conditions (IF they need improved) the OP and people like you really don't care about animals one bit, because do you do that? No, you run away and write letters and love to be horrified, unlike the vet students who really DO care and are in there learning, studying, and finding ways to alleviate animals suffering. NOT like ARs at all, at all, at all.

I am a vegetarian as well and an animal rights advocate. I have also been in the veterinary business for almost a decade and although there are some difficult times that you have to face in that position, you in no way have to let go of your ethics. In fact, there are several vet schools that have intentionally become more animal rights friendly, such as Tufts and Western.

The veterinary students who took that class have probably more ethics than you. Why? Because they're doing something about it: learning. Western? No comment. Tufts? Animal welfare, not animal rights. Get it straight.

 

[Angelus9]

I don't know of any animal rights advocates that I have come into contact with that are against the veterinarian industry or especially against people having pets?!

Ok, this TOTALLY shows that you are completely, utterly misinformed. Both PETA and HSUS are anti-pet!

"In a perfect world, all other than human animals would be free
of human interference, and dogs and cats would be part of the
ecological scheme." --PeTA's Statement on Companion Animals.

[A]s the surplus of cats and dogs {artificially engineered by
centuries of forced breeding) declined, eventually companion
animals would be phased out, and we would return to a more
symbiotic relationship--enjoyment at a distance." --Ingrid
Newkirk, "Just Like Us? Toward a Notion of Animal Rights"

"In an ideal society where all exploitation and
oppression has been eliminated, it will be NJARA's policy to
oppose the keeping of animals as 'pets.'" --New Jersey Animal
Rights Alliance, "Should Dogs Be Kept As Pets? NO!"

"Let us allow the dog to disappear from our brick and concrete
jungles--from our firesides, from the leather nooses and chains
by which we enslave it." --John Bryant, Fettered Kingdoms: An
Examination of A Changing Ethic (Washington, DC: People for the
Ethical Treatment of Animals (PeTA)

"The cat, like the dog, must disappear... We should cut the
domestic cat free from our dominance by neutering, neutering, and
more neutering, until our pathetic version of the cat ceases to
exist." --John Bryant, Fettered Kingdoms: An Examination of A
Changing Ethic

 

[amom427]

issues such as puppy mills and factory farming.

I consider both of those to be animal welfare issues, not animal rights.


ETA: I think 4 people posted on this at about the same time! Sorry to not really add to the post!

 

[Angelus9]

Not many animal rights supporters (that I know anyway) agree with everything PETA takes a stance on. In fact, many in the animal rights community think that PETA does more harm than good.
Just so you know, a lot of us do things like assist in passing bills through legislature when it comes to issues such as puppy mills and factory farming. We're not all out liberating slaughterhouse animals into the streets and throwing red paint on people.

Glad to see your backpedaling begin. And don't try to brush it off by saying, Oh, PETA, well, them...It's not just PETA, it's the entire AR movement. Also, almost all of the proposed puppy mill legislation will do nothing to stop puppy mills. They'll keep on doing what they do. It will only hurt law-abiding citizens. Have you read any of the actual legislation? Much of it requires mandatory spay/neuter (MSN) - no exceptions for police dogs, guide dogs, military dogs, service dogs. Why? Because the ultimate goal is not stopping "puppy mills," it's eliminating pets. There are laws already on the books about the proper care of animals. Enforce them and it will clean up the puppy mills, right? And we can't even enforce them, so how are we going to enforce more laws? Oh, right, PETA and HSUS - they've offered to provide their own volunteers with police powers to go door-to-door snooping and spying. No thank you.

"We are not especially 'interested in' animals. Neither of us had
ever been inordinately fond of dogs, cats, or horses in the way
that many people are. We didn't 'love' animals." --Peter Singer,
Animal Liberation: A New Ethic for Our Treatment of Animals, 2nd
ed. (New York Review of Books, 1990), Preface, p. ii.

"The theory of animal rights simply is not consistent with the
theory of animal welfare... Animal rights means dramatic social
changes for humans and non-humans alike; if our bourgeois values
prevent us from accepting those changes, then we have no right to
call ourselves advocates of animal rights." --Gary Francione,
The Animals' Voice, Vol. 4, No. 2 (undated), pp. 54-55.

"Not only are the philosophies of animal rights and animal
welfare separated by irreconcilable differences... the enactment
of animal welfare measures actually impedes the achievement of
animal rights... Welfare reforms, by their very nature, can only
serve to ****** the pace at which animal rights goals are
achieved." --Gary Francione and Tom Regan, "A Movement's Means
Create Its Ends," The Animals' Agenda, January/February 1992,
pp. 40-42.

 

[jpeterman13]

Animal rights may mean different things to different people. I don't know of any animal rights advocates that I have come into contact with that are against the veterinarian industry or especially against people having pets?!

Do some research. Animal Rights DOES NOT mean different things to different people. Animal rights supporters oppose having animals as companions/ working animals/ as zoo exhibits/ as food sources/ etc etc (that being the case, by the transitive property, they are against the veterinary industry). Anyone who is a supporter of animal RIGHTS has no place in the field of veterinary medicine. Sorry to be so blunt, but that's the way that it is. An animal rights supporter who is also a veterinarian is almost like a vegetarian who works at a slaughter house, a democrat working for Sarah Palin, or an anti-gay protester producing Queer Eye for the Straight Guy---they would be going against everything that they believe in. I am so tempted to throw up the troll sign, but I'll take the high road.

 

[sumstorm]

OK, I will try to find a middle ground here. I have some strong beliefs about the humane treatment of food animals, and I have some issues with how food animals are raised and processed in the US, particularly at large plants. I also have a lot of experience with slaughtering food animals from growing up on a farm where we did that work ourselves (along with our neighbors; slaughter was an annual event!)

In some ways, it doesn't get better. If you go to a food processing plant (live to package) as a vet student, you may encounter the same response...or you may encounter an oblivious response. In a group of 38 vet students, I was the only one who noticed a live bird that became trapped beneath a conveyer and was being debrided by the belt, 2 birds have wings broken and another have it's leg snapped via the system used to dump the birds from the cage. While that bothered me greatly, I was more uncomfortable hearing my fellow students talk about how wonderful and humane the plant was, and I had to accept that the amazing efficiency, and the dedicated kill area had distracted them from observing the inloading, or looking at areas beyond the central line.

However, I think the same thing has happened to you; you are so busy being wonder-struck by the central concept, that you aren't able to look beyond it to what is around it. I assume you are not being asked to slaughter, or to eat the meat produced. I assume you knew that you would be working on cadavers, and you knew that the cadavers had to originate somewhere.

So, work on flipping this around; would you really rather meat eating folks be in complete denial about where their food comes from? I personally think if your going to eat meat you should see the conditions that animal encounters, from birth to packaging, and not just the pretty pastoral scene on the packaging. It is possible that some students want to view actual slaughter to judge for themselves whether the process is humane. At the poultry processing plant, I didn't think the actual slaughter was inhumane or inappropriate; I believe there was easily avoided sloppiness with the live animals up to the point where they were stunned, but that involves areas that are often overlooked. And the staff there admits any damage to the animals is money loss for them; they may not be looking for humane solutions for humane reasons, but money does count.

I do believe you over-reacted by dropping the class/lab. Let me toss some other ideas out there: do you go to grocery stores that carry meat? eateries that serve meat? stores that have clothes made from animal products? If not, why are you so quick to cast the stones at an educational venue? There are people who would be that extreme, and if you are one of them, then you don't belong in this field. If you are someone who can handle embracing your personal beliefs, increasing awareness in others without imposing your beliefs on them, then moving on, it may be the perfect career, because individuals can have major impacts. Temple Grandin is a classic example (thought she is not a vet) as is Karen Pryor (again, not a vet.)

Another thought, the ethical issues are not magically gone if you are not a vet. You may just have less contact with them. That isn't much different, in my opinion, than the adult who doesn't know pork = pig. Being oblivious isn't a solution or an improvement, just a den to hide in.

However, all of that being said, only you can make the decisions for yourself. You will need to be able to handle yourself professionally around vets who do work in slaughterhouses and who do promote animal care in manners you disagree with. You will also have the oppurtunity to meet vets/individuals who are impacting how animals are treated (there is a study going on now about debudding cattle using nerve blocks that may convince producers that it is better for the animal and their bottom line by enabling the ox to put more mass on faster.) My suggestion is that, if you want to enter this profession, you continue to get experience in a variety of veterinary fields, examine the differences between animal rights and animal welfare, expose yourself to individuals who work with these animals but believe they are responsible for the health and well-being as well, and examine what drives your interactions with animals (or where you are able to draw the line.)

I personally don't buy into junk like 'all societies/mankind/humanity has depended on meat to survive' because there are societies/populations that are vegetarian/vegan or that 'we must raise animals in X conditions to feed the world' but I won't affect any of that by pretending it doesn't exist....and at the same time, I have to know when not to break myself against the wall of someone elses view/beliefs/culture. For disclosure, I am not vegetarian but I don't eat a lot of meat, and I am 'picky' about meat sources. Slow down, catch your breath, and digest this experience a bit. Far easier to think it through when you aren't panicing and reacting. It is possible to have issues with parts of current systems without having issues with every aspect surrounding those systems, and it is possible to change things without full throttling away from them or alienating every individual within a given field.

 

[Angelus9]

sumstorm, that's my point, too. That you WENT there, you kept your mind and your eyes open, and you improved things. You found the problem with the bird. You didn't run away. You looked and came up with solutions, and because of this, you will probably find more ways to make things better in the future.

IMO, that's what veterinarians and veterinary students are doing - because unlike AR advocates, they actually do care about animals, and unlike AR advocates, they do make things better.

While the OP was dropping the anatomy lab and writing letters to vet schools and doing nothing for any actual animals, you were out there actually making life better for real animals while probably learning even more ways to help. Good for you and all vets/vet students!

 

[PM2009]

Huge difference between animal rights and animal welfare and definitely something you apparently need to research in depth before going to any vet school interviews.

I'm not sure I know of a school that would want to admit an animal rights activist. Kinda makes the whole profession obsolete...

At my undergrad (Colorado State) they made a big deal of letting us know the dogs and cats we used were slated for euthansia at the humane society anyway so at least this way they could be used for a good purpose (learning) instead of being wasted. The hanging horse and cow were also slated for slaughter. We also had a HUGE animal science program and had a class called 'live and dead' where you evaluated an animal while it was alive and again after it was slaughtered in order to judge meat quality. I was not an an sci major so never took that class but had several friends that did.

I spent a lot of time working at the equine orthopeadic reaseach center at CSU as well and many of the studies required the euthanasia of horses at the end of the study in order to harvest legs, etc and obtain final results. It was sad and I can't say I wasn't attached to several of the horses we used in the study but at the same time it's something that has to be done in order to make break throughs, learn and potentially save thousands of humans and animals from suffering or death.

These are all realities of becoming a veterinarian. If you can't handle it then I would have to say that yes, you are too emotional to enter veterinary school. It's a tough profession and not everyone will have the mental and emotional ability to handle it. Better to find out now then after you sink $100K into your education. If you do choose to go then you'll need to open your mind more and look for ways to improve things you disagree with. I agree that there are many practices in this country and all over the world that could be improved, especially in the food animal business, but at the same time there are a lot of people working to improve those issues that are NOT animal rights wakos. Maybe you could try searching out some animal WELFARE groups and aligning yourself with them. It might open your mind a little and let you see things a bit differently.

 

[Angelus9]

We were also told recently that we cannot invite certain animal rights groups to school because they are categorized as terrorist groups (ALF, ELF, PETA).

Yes, categorized by the FBI as terrorist groups, lest the ARs say it's just talk.

http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress01/freeh051001.htm

[SIZE=-1]"The 12 known or suspected acts in 1999 included two separate acts committed by lone domestic extremists in California and Indiana/Illinois, eight acts attributed to animal rights and environmental extremists, one bombing incident believed carried out by separatists in Puerto Rico, and one arson incident possibly committed by animal rights extremists or anarchists in Washington State."

There you have it. MOST of the terrorist acts in the USA in 1999 were committed by ARs.

More: [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]"Special interest extremists continue to conduct acts of politically motivated violence to force segments of society, including, the general public, to change attitudes about issues considered important to their causes. These groups occupy the extreme fringes of animal rights,...... Some special interest extremists -- most notably within the animal rights and environmental movements -- have turned increasingly toward vandalism and terrorist activity in attempts to further their causes.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]In recent years, the Animal Liberation Front (ALF) -- an extremist animal rights movement -- has become one of the most active extremist elements in the United States."

So zuneski and Tech2Vet, when you're out there telling vet schools that you are an AR, why on earth would you be surprised at their reaction? You can pretend, for pretending it is, that you "aren't one of them," but you are. You state you are ARs. You see what ARs state, believe, do, and strive for. By stating you support AR, others know what that means, even if you don't.
[/SIZE]

 

[gilch]

Just wanted to point out to you guys that are calling yourselves animal rights supporters--it's a common interview question--"What's the difference between animal rights and animal welfare?"

The answer that they are looking for is that you know the difference, and you are not an animal rights activist (I don't think you could be an informed one and seek entry into vet school anyway). Think of it as this--animal rights are suggesting everything just short of giving domestic and wild animals social security cards. I think you'd find that the vast majority of vets are animal welfare supporters. Spend some time googling the difference.

I hope we haven't scared the OP off in this thread. I can understand something about where he/she is coming from. I took an intro AS lab that went through the school's meat facility and did some carcass evaluation as a part of that. Some of it was just uncomfortable for me, while other parts were a little disturbing (and there were students just a little too disappointed for my comfort that we did not observe/participate in slaughter). I think a better option than dropping the class would be to talk to the professor about it--after that first tour, would you have much contact w/the slaughter aspect? are the carcasses reused for other purposes once the class no longer needs them? ect.


I also think that it is good that you are thinking about your fit into the veterinary profession now rather than later.

 

[nyanko]

So zuneski and Tech2Vet, when you're out there telling vet schools that you are an AR, why on earth would you be surprised at their reaction? You can pretend, for pretending it is, that you "aren't one of them," but you are. You state you are ARs. You see what ARs state, believe, do, and strive for. By stating you support AR, others know what that means, even if you don't.

😍

Angelus9 has made some excellent posts in this thread. Unfortunately as chris03333 said, this is an issue on which many people have made up their minds and thus are closed minded about.

We've had this discussion before and some AR people started nitpicking between legal rights and moral rights and all that stuff, so I'm not getting involved but my stance is well known.

 

[BlacKAT33]

😍

Angelus9 has made some excellent posts in this thread. Unfortunately as chris03333 said, this is an issue on which many people have made up their minds and thus are closed minded about.

We've had this discussion before and some AR people started nitpicking between legal rights and moral rights and all that stuff, so I'm not getting involved but my stance is well known.

i enjoyed your first post on this thread. the lone laughing face in response to a quote. laughed so hard too. maybe it will free up a space for others at the same school, but then again, i can just imagine what their personal statement was like

 

[Willowhand]

I agree with most of the suggestions in Sumstorm and Gilch's replies. I think it is easy to get caught up in a gut reaction to something, but in order to act in an informed and productive way you must temper your emotions with reasoning, research, and a perspective that takes into account the whole picture. This is particularly crucial if you seek to enter a profession that is intrinsically involved in something that disturbs you. Zuneski, I am not suggesting that you give up the pursuit of vet med, but before you continue I think you should do some research, talk to veterinary professionals and others with food animal experience -perhaps get some experience yourself- and evaluate your stance on human-animal interactions with a focus on how it would affect your success as a vet. I wish you the best as you seek to resolve your queries.

To some of the others who responded to this post: please remember that, as vets, there is a good chance we will be dealing with clients whose understanding and perspectives on animal treatment do not match up with our own. And that in some situations, misinformed and undereducated clients are a daily occurrence. This does not mean that they are entitled to anything less than respect and patience. Why set different standards here? I wasn't on the receiving end, but the tone of some of the above responses made me uncomfortable. Keep in mind that there is a real, live person attached to each of these posts 🙂

 

[gilch]

i enjoyed your first post on this thread. the lone laughing face in response to a quote. laughed so hard too. maybe it will free up a space for others at the same school, but then again, i can just imagine what their personal statement was like

Did NOT realize the OP had already applied. Whoops! That will teach me to read every line. I take back my comment about figuring this out beforehand.

I still stand by my other comments, though.

 

[BlacKAT33]

Did NOT realize the OP had already applied. Whoops! That will teach me to read every line.

This is why i didnt bother adding to the "animal welfare vs. rights definition". if you can get all the way up to sending in your applications and still not do enough research on a career in vet med and the issues involving it, i feel like you're already too lost to lighten up on opinions. Even though the OP hasnt responded, i feel like TechVet took on the same position and they weren't able to open their mind to these issues either.

 

[Angelus9]

To some of the others who responded to this post: please remember that, as vets, there is a good chance we will be dealing with clients whose understanding and perspectives on animal treatment do not match up with our own.....This does not mean that they are entitled to anything less than respect and patience. Why set different standards here? I wasn't on the receiving end, but the tone of some of the above responses made me uncomfortable. Keep in mind that there is a real, live person attached to each of these posts 🙂

Why would you assume that the way someone responds on a msg. board to a college student who has already applied to vet school would be the same way one would respond to a client in the office??? Pretty big assumption.

I expect more from a person that has already applied to vet school than I expect from a pet-owning client. And, LOL, AR people need to learn that there are real, live people attached to these posts here that yes, might make those of you who support terrorist, pet-hating, AR agendas, "a little uncomfortable." Too bad.

 

[Willowhand]

Why would you assume that the way someone responds on a msg. board to a college student who has already applied to vet school would be the same way one would respond to a client in the office??? Pretty big assumption.

I never meant to suggest that anyone on here would behave thus with a client, but was wondering why we should treat each other with less respect. We may be future colleagues in the profession, so why not try to establish healthy relationships now, regardless of anonymity?

As for my comment about my discomfort, that was directed at the tone -not the content. What made me uncomfortable was that what I took to be a sincere question was met by laughter and disdainful comments. The value of this community lies in its supportive nature, and I feel that disparaging remarks tend to undermine that.

 

[Angelus9]

Agreed, willowhand. I hereby banish myself to the Pre-Allo forum for the rest of the day. AIEEEE!!

 

[galen13]

I had many animal science classes in the room that was attached to the giant freezer where they kept the carcasses. And right near the slaughter house. Multiple times in the morning you could hear the squeal of the pigs as they went into the shocker... kinda gross, but it didn't bother me too bad

 

[david594]

To some of the others who responded to this post: please remember that, as vets, there is a good chance we will be dealing with clients whose understanding and perspectives on animal treatment do not match up with our own. And that in some situations, misinformed and undereducated clients are a daily occurrence. This does not mean that they are entitled to anything less than respect and patience. Why set different standards here? I wasn't on the receiving end, but the tone of some of the above responses made me uncomfortable. Keep in mind that there is a real, live person attached to each of these posts 🙂

This is very true. And once were out in the field working as vets it will be our job to inform and educate these clients. And if they still disagree and we can't come to a satisfactory compromise? WE FIRE THEM!

 

[JCG621]

Hello all,

I've just become aware of something that is happening at my university and I had to post this. I signed up for an animal anatomy/physiology lab for the spring semester. What made me sick was that my lab is held in a meat science facility...a place that actually slaughters animals! I had no idea that this happened not only at my university, but in the same building as my lab. We took a tour on the first day, and we saw the "kill floor". My classmates were laughing and making jokes through the whole thing. Some of them even asked if they would be able to see the slaughters. I was so enraged and nauseated by the environment that I just left. I couldn't believe how sick my classmates were! How could I go back to that lab, knowing that animals were being slaughtered literally right down the hall?! I since dropped the lab.

This whole event was incredibly upsetting and sad to me. It makes me wonder if I'm too emotional about animals to be a veterinarian. I love science, though. I am a vegetarian and an animal rights supporter. I understand that slaughterhouses exist, but to have it in my face like that was overwhelming. I just have very little tolerance for animal cruelty. Although I've contacted the vet schools I applied to about this subject, I am somewhat afraid of the ethical issues I may face as a vet (even though I have a lot of assisting experience)...are any of you concerned about this? 😕

Zuneski,

I have been involved in animal production for about seven years now. Veterinarians play a crucial role in animal production by making sure that sick and injured animals do not enter the food chain. Veterinarians also ensure that the slaughter process is as humane as possible. Not every veterinarian needs to be involved in animal production, but it is crucial that you understand that role and respect that part of veterinary medicine. It is also important to understand that humane slaughter for human consumption is not animal cruelty.

If you are having issues with humane euthanasia of animals as well, you may want to reevaluate whether this is the best career path for you because this is an issue you are sure to face every day.

I wish you the best of luck, and also remember that as you travel through your pending career you must keep an open mind.

 

[Ninnerfish]

I think Sumstorm's reply was right on the money. Well said!

I don't think that wanting to avoid seeing animals slaughtered necessarily precludes someone from being a vet. Of course, you need to understand that such things do happen and you will most likely be required to witness them at some point as part of the profession. I couldn't be a lab animal vet, but some of my close friends want to go into it, and I don't judge them harshly for it. We all have to live with ourselves at the end of the day; if you are bothered by the ethics of certain things, by all means don't participate in them! But respect the fact that there are those who have a different take on the issue. This goes for both sides of the argument. I think it's healthy for people to be forced to learn about things they don't agree with - whether that means a vegetarian learning in a slaughterhouse or an "animal welfare" advocate learning that not all "animal rights" advocates are nutjobs. If every issue was black and white, there would be nothing to disagree about, would there?

 

[racccjlm]

And if they still disagree and we can't come to a satisfactory compromise? WE FIRE THEM!

Or do this...

Just joking!! 😀

 

[quantized]

Wait wait wait.

Zuneski, you applied and then contacted the schools and said you weren't taking A&P because of your stance on animal rights without first considering the ramifications of this stance on your applications?

I can't believe this is for real.

Agreed, willowhand. I hereby banish myself to the Pre-Allo forum for the rest of the day. AIEEEE!!

That's a pretty harsh punishment you gave yourself...although it's a sunday so you might be able to drink your way through the pain. Might I suggest some patron on the rocks? Or maybe a margarita or twenty?

 

[twelvetigers]

Just adding (a bit late) that we have a 'slaughterhouse' on campus as well (but I'm smirking as I call it that) and also that all ansci majors take a class called "Meat and Carcass Evaluation" in which you see the animal alive, try and judge the quality etc. of the meat, and then the next time you see it, it's in pieces and you get to decide if you judged it properly. As a zoology major, I never took this class... I didn't want to, honestly. As if most of us would *want* to do that. But if I wanted to be an ansci major, I would have!

As a vet, you certainly would not be spending much time in a slaughterhouse unless you wanted to, so that's not an issue... but you can't be naive about what goes on or why. Huffing out of the room anytime you don't like a situation (of any sort) will get you nowhere.

 

[sumstorm]

I was told our undergrad here has a course where the student does the termination, helps to process the carcass, and then consumes the prepared meat later. when I heard that, I thought 'what if you are vegetarian?' then found out consumption was optional. Interesting concept, though.

 

[ColoradoDVM]

I have to say that I'm really surprised by some of the reactions to this post. I think that zuneski has some valid points and I would feel similar to him/her about having to take a class in a slaughterhouse. I am a vegetarian as well and an animal rights advocate. I have also been in the veterinary business for almost a decade and although there are some difficult times that you have to face in that position, you in no way have to let go of your ethics. In fact, there are several vet schools that have intentionally become more animal rights friendly, such as Tufts and Western.
It does worry me that future veterinarians are laughing at this subject. I can understand that some are not interested in animal rights, but surely you should have some professionalism on the matter and take others opinions into consideration.

I agree. I am disheartened to see this forum reduced to name-calling and laughter. By some of the responses, it would appear that compassion is an undesirable trait in our field.
Many practices in medicine that used to be commonplace have been abolished because individuals stood up and said that the practices were unacceptable. They found solutions and ways to change veterinary education and veterinary medicine to be more humane. Not too long ago, we euthanized pets by stopping hearts while animals were still conscious, performed surgical procedures in labs with anaesthesia but not analgesics, and broke bones to practice fixing them.
As far as the meat industry is concerned? Distributors such as Whole Foods have pledged to provide animal products only from sources with a more humane treatment and processing of animals. There are most certainly different standards in the food animal industry, with some being more humane than others. If enough people value these changes, it will become the norm instead of the exception.
There is plenty of room in this profession, and the treatment of animals in general, for improvement. Why shouldn't we strive for more humane treatment? Why would you laugh at those who would approach it in a kind, compassionate manner? 😕

 

[bunnity]

Not gonna get involved in this one, but just wanted to say I did get asked about my feelings regarding food animals in my Penn interview (more so from an environmental perspective though since that's what we were talking about) so it is something to expect to be talking to interviewers about.

 

[peachy3214]

I understand what people are saying about the difference between animal rights and animal welfare. BUT the fact of the matter is there can be a middle ground. I personally believe in aspects of both. I do not support any of the violent tactics used by some of these groups but SOME of their points are valid. These IMO would be:
1. I do not believe in slaughtering animals for entertainment
2. I do not believe in using animals for entertainment(like the circus)
3. I believe that animals should only be put in zoos for conservation and rehabilitation. No animal should be taken from its natural environment for entertainment purposes.
4. Pets are fine as long as they are things that dont exist in the wild(for the most part) on their own. Your border collie or manx cat would be an example. They dont have a natural habitat or niche. A chimp or slow loris etc. should not be a pet.
5. I dont believe in wearing fur. Unless you are an inuit and have no other means of warming yourself. In todays society thats not necessary.
6. I dont believe in some animal testing. alot of it is just senseless and cruel no matter how you paint it.
7. Im on the fence about anyone eating meat for the "taste" of it. Veal is the perfect example. This practice is disgusting and before anyone says anything I raise beef cattle and it IS possible to raise veal humanely if you must.
8. As someone who has been exposed to every aspect of the meat industry. It needs a MAJOR overhaul the way most animals raised for slaughter is inhumane and it needs to be changed.
9. I also dont believe in terminal surgeries in vet schools on otherwise healthy animals. If it is an animal that is going to die anyway to do something else then thats different.


It really saddens me to see that so many on these boards are so closed minded about this topic. Not everything has to be black and white and just because an individual respects life they do not need to be chastised and told that they are "unfit" for the profession. I probably would not have dropped the lab but i know that seeing ANY healthy animal killed(especially in a graphic manner) disturbs me. As a vet I would be prepared to see sick animals die/humanely euthanized and I would be prepared to see animals die due to accidents(working at a clinic I have seen many hunting dogs the victim of gunshots) But watching a healthy animal die do to intentional human actions, as an animals lover, is always disturbing and not a situation I would want to be in.

 

[peachy3214]

I believe that every animal has the RIGHT to shelter, water, food, their fur/skin, and a happy/quality life while they are alive.
If that makes me "radical" then i wear that title with pride.

Even though i raise beef cattle, my cows have a high quality of life. While my land can sustain 600 cows by todays industry standards, I keep 200 at most. They all have top notch medical care when they need it and they always have fresh hay in 5 barns that are always open to them.

 

[davidd]

If you can get back into the class I think you should -- or take it next semester. If you're very passionate about criticizing factory farming, then it's good to have 1st hand experience of what you oppose. It's also character building: you will have to be pleasant with clients who have mistreated their animals; and you will be in veterinary school with people pursuing careers in food-animal production.


I have a parallel experience: I'm passionate about wildlife. When I began working for a wildlife facility, it bugged me that they would charge people to take pictures with the animals and rent the animals out for commercial media production. In the past year or so I've spent a lot of time mulling the ethics of captive wildlife treatment; I still don't know where I stand exactly, but if I ever decide to be outspoken on the issue, I have 1st hand knowledge of what's going on.

 

[nyanko]

I understand what people are saying about the difference between animal rights and animal welfare. BUT the fact of the matter is there can be a middle ground. I personally believe in aspects of both. I do not support any of the violent tactics used by some of these groups but SOME of their points are valid. These IMO would be:

I don't see how anything you said is a "middle ground" between the two.

And the OP clearly said that (s)he is an animal rights supporter. If you use those terms, you are pigeonholing yourself into that group in most people's minds, like it or not.

Not to mention that the OP's feelings regarding slaughter or whatever are one thing and that's a personal opinion, but as mentioned the reaction is the part that is offputting. I guess it's okay if a person doesn't want to watch the whole ordeal (though I think it's important to gain a perspective on that area of vet med, particularly if you are going to be so strongly against it), but this little freakout and letter-writing campaign just make the OP look uninformed and ignorant.