Starting Salaries

[Jackie B]

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I'm all for making intelligent financial decisions, but let's be honest here ... Pharmacy students are in no position to request that they make a certain salary upon graduation. There are no guarantees in the work force and banking your career on something like a salary request that can easily change while you're enrolled in the program is fiscally ignorant.

Ummmm....so why does anyone invest in any kind of education at any level? At bachelor's level, master's, or more? Because people expect some kind of guarantee in the work force and some guarantee financially. Not a 100%, sign-the-line-here guarantee, but a good estimate and good guess. If there was no expectation of finding a job and making a good income do you think so many people would bother pursuing any level of higher education, especially at a cost to them?

Chemguy just get off your high horse, stop trying to convince us you would still be a pharmacist if it paid you 20k.

 

[a runner]

Teachers do get paid in the 80k range in decent districts if they've worked long enough. The key is that it takes them 20 years to get to that pay range.

http://www.pkwy.k12.mo.us/hr/salaries.cfm

That is a link to the salary steps at my old school district.

You just have to take some night courses your first few years and get a masters. But it's well worth the 2 fold increase in salary.

Bingo. You don't even need a masters in some areas. Take NYC, the BASE pay for a teacher of 22 years with a BA is $88,259 and if you have additional schooling past a BA there is an extra $5-10k. So the comment that someone made that teachers will be making $40k for 40+ years is false, at least in many areas. http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/EDDB658C-BE7F-4314-85C0-03F5A00B8A0B/0/salary.pdf

You might say New York is expensive and so every job pays more, but pharmacist average pay there is $106,560, no higher than the national average. http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_35620.htm#29-0000

It all depends on the area. I'm sure some places are opposite of this (below average teacher pay and above average pharmacist pay). That's why you can't be picky about where you live if you want to make the most money or to even find the kind of job you want.

Yeah, pharmacy has tightened up, and continues to. About half of my classmates who wanted one were not even able to secure an internship last summer, and some interns at companies are not being offered post-graduation jobs. You have to make yourself stand out, and this trend will just continue. It's not a very rosy pictures, but it could be a lot worse (lawyers, architects, etc.). There are still plenty of jobs in places like West Texas, New Mexico, small rural Midwest towns, etc. And if you make yourself top notch you might be able to get a job in a saturated area.

 

[a runner]

Ummmm....so why does anyone invest in any kind of education at any level? At bachelor's level, master's, or more? Because people expect some kind of guarantee in the work force and some guarantee financially. Not a 100%, sign-the-line-here guarantee, but a good estimate and good guess. If there was no expectation of finding a job and making a good income do you think so many people would bother pursuing any level of higher education, especially at a cost to them?

Chemguy just get off your high horse, stop trying to convince us you would still be a pharmacist if it paid you 20k.

I agree, and people should care about what kind of pay a career has before going into it. This is the market's way of distributing labor. If people didn't listen to these cues (thankfully they do), the division of labor in a society would be all screwed up.

If there are not enough nurses, for example, the market will cause the rate of pay to rise to entice more people into the profession who might have otherwise spent X amount of years becoming a doctor or pharmacist, so they could spend less time in school and debt. Or medical assistants who now feel the extra 2-4 years of school is worth becoming a nurse now that the pay is higher.

It's not all black and white and many people could be happy doing different things. Details like pay, work conditions, length and cost of education, and training make a difference, as they should.

 

[a runner]

To the OP: pharmacist salaries have not gone down at all recently. At least not where I'm at. The hospital I interned at this summer had two positions open and they had to hire a recruiting service just to get two applicants to interview. The pay at the other hospital across town was $60-$63/hr starting, depending on experience, and the pay at my hospital was slightly lower (this was considered an undesirable place to live). My friend in a saturated major city with a pharmacy school in it said they are hiring PRN hospital pharmacists at about $58/hr. I tend to believe that pharmacist salaries will not go down, but they will stagnate over the next 5-15 years without any upward movement.

 

[chemguy79]

Ummmm....so why does anyone invest in any kind of education at any level? At bachelor's level, master's, or more? Because people expect some kind of guarantee in the work force and some guarantee financially. Not a 100%, sign-the-line-here guarantee, but a good estimate and good guess. If there was no expectation of finding a job and making a good income do you think so many people would bother pursuing any level of higher education, especially at a cost to them?

Chemguy just get off your high horse, stop trying to convince us you would still be a pharmacist if it paid you 20k.

LOL Your response is comical.

As I have stated repeatedly, it's important to go into a career where you can work after graduation. Furthermore, the debt that one will accrue is something that should be understood prior to starting a program. We don't disagree all that much ...

However, my point of contention is that if you feel that you can't pay back your pharmacy school debt without making at least 100K, you're delusional. If you still fail to comprehend that, there is no point in debating with you further.

 

[scienceguy13]

However, my point of contention is that if you feel that you can't pay back your pharmacy school debt without making at least 100K, you're delusional. If you still fail to comprehend that, there is no point in debating with you further.

I’m not sure anyone really said that. I mean I originally stated that the career isn't worth it to me anymore if salaries are under 70K... But that's just because when I "crunch the numbers" that salary after taxes and loan payments is about the same as a teacher. With that in mind, I feel that if I was going to make a teacher’s salary until I’m 36 years old, then I may as well just be a teacher and enjoy the benefits that go along with it.

 

[SHC1984]

However, my point of contention is that if you feel that you can't pay back your pharmacy school debt without making at least 100K, you're delusional. If you still fail to comprehend that, there is no point in debating with you further.

Yes, a person can pay off 200K with a 100K salary but it will be very diffcult. Its more like a 60K salary after taxes. The person could move back in with mom and dad, eat instant noodles on a daily basis, never go on any vacations and shop at goodwill. Never have children etc. Yes, he or she could do that and live like a college student forever. 🙄

But do you honestly think that is worth it???? I think most of us here went to college so we can IMPROVE OUR STANDARD OF LIVING and not live like college students forever. Just saying.

And some people on here might actually want children....with that kind of debt you can kiss that goodbye.

 

[SHC1984]

I’m not sure anyone really said that. I mean I originally stated that the career isn't worth it to me anymore if salaries are under 70K... But that's just because when I "crunch the numbers" that salary after taxes and loan payments is about the same as a teacher. With that in mind, I feel that if I was going to make a teacher’s salary until I’m 36 years old, then I may as well just be a teacher and enjoy the benefits that go along with it.

There are people that make 70K a year without college degrees so you are absolutely right about that. Not a lot of people but there are people out there that make more money then I ever will IN MY LIFETIME and they never went to college.

 

[Jackie B]

However, my point of contention is that if you feel that you can't pay back your pharmacy school debt without making at least 100K, you're delusional. If you still fail to comprehend that, there is no point in debating with you further.

That was not the original question/argument. The poster was just wondering what kind of salary he can expect as a pharmacist so he can calculate to see if it would be worth it for him to take on the debt. I don't think anyone said they would not be able to pay off loans without making at least 100k. But in some states, like CA, it would be really hard since like I said tuition for 4 years is now 200k. 200k for a salary around 80-90k (assuming you find a FT job) is a little risky and should only be taken on by people who are extremely serious about the field (and maybe even have the option of living with parents for the first year or two after graduating to pay some of it off). That 200K is a big chunk of change and it accumulates interest FAST (especially since the fed government cut out stafford loans for grad students), plus your 80-90K is depleted to like 60K after taxes, and assuming you pay 20k back each year (which is a lot! 1/3!)...it would take you 10 years to pay off your pharmacy loan, not including that interest. Some people don't want to have a 10+ year loan for education in a bad economy especially when it sucks out 20K from you a year! This is a reasonable discussion.

 

[Pharmizzle]

Yes, a person can pay off 200K with a 100K salary but it will be very diffcult. Its more like a 60K salary after taxes.

I'm not a tax expert by any means, but just using some rough numbers, someone making around 100k should expect somewhere between 15-20k in taxes per year, depending on filing status, and that's assuming that you only take your standard deduction and don't itemize at all. I could be wrong, but as far as I know, you are not going to lose 40% of your income to taxes.

 

[UNMorBUST]

I'm not a tax expert by any means, but just using some rough numbers, someone making around 100k should expect somewhere between 15-20k in taxes per year, depending on filing status, and that's assuming that you only take your standard deduction and don't itemize at all. I could be wrong, but as far as I know, you are not going to lose 40% of your income to taxes.

You are correct. However, there are other thing to take into account. State tax, benefits, and retirement come to mind. 30-40% After taking everything into account is not unheard of.

 

[chemguy79]

That was not the original question/argument. The poster was just wondering what kind of salary he can expect as a pharmacist so he can calculate to see if it would be worth it for him to take on the debt. I don't think anyone said they would not be able to pay off loans without making at least 100k. But in some states, like CA, it would be really hard since like I said tuition for 4 years is now 200k. 200k for a salary around 80-90k (assuming you find a FT job) is a little risky and should only be taken on by people who are extremely serious about the field (and maybe even have the option of living with parents for the first year or two after graduating to pay some of it off). That 200K is a big chunk of change and it accumulates interest FAST (especially since the fed government cut out stafford loans for grad students), plus your 80-90K is depleted to like 60K after taxes, and assuming you pay 20k back each year (which is a lot! 1/3!)...it would take you 10 years to pay off your pharmacy loan, not including that interest. Some people don't want to have a 10+ year loan for education in a bad economy especially when it sucks out 20K from you a year! This is a reasonable discussion.

It's obviously a reasonable discussion, I agree with a vast majority of it.

Frankly, Jackie B, I have a different perspective regarding accruing student loan debt in order to pursue a career because I have already been through this process in order to pursue my current career in pharmaceutical R&D. I had student loans in undergrad, I went to graduate school, took out loans, etc. I've been in the work force for over 3 years and I manage my student loan debt. I find people questioning the financial aspects of pharmacy before they've even been a part of the work force strange.

Furthermore, I have a laissez-faire attitude about accruing student loan debt to pursue a career that I will actually enjoy. Therefore, reading a gaggle of pre-pharms kvetch about potential salaries vs. student loan debt when they haven't been a part of the work force as an unusual perspective. It's great to be concerned, but I'm more concerned about being happy with my job versus focusing solely financial feasibility because I have actually had a career.

 

[Pharmizzle]

You are correct. However, there are other thing to take into account. State tax, benefits, and retirement come to mind. 30-40% After taking everything into account is not unheard of.

True and you're right about state taxes for most states, but paying for benefits and retirement isn't really mandatory in the same way that taxes are. You could start including all sorts of necessary and unnecessary expenses into the calculation and say that, after you pay your bills, you have $0 left (and I have known pharmacists who spend every penny they make and live paycheck-to-paycheck 🙄), but I was mainly addressing the fact that an income of 100k doesn't put you in a situation where a flat 40% of your salary goes to taxes alone, which is what it seemed to me was being implied. Apologies to SHC1984 if I misinterpreted what they meant.

 

[Lagunatic]

Yes, a person can pay off 200K with a 100K salary but it will be very diffcult. Its more like a 60K salary after taxes. The person could move back in with mom and dad, eat instant noodles on a daily basis, never go on any vacations and shop at goodwill. Never have children etc. Yes, he or she could do that and live like a college student forever. 🙄

But do you honestly think that is worth it???? I think most of us here went to college so we can IMPROVE OUR STANDARD OF LIVING and not live like college students forever. Just saying.

And some people on here might actually want children....with that kind of debt you can kiss that goodbye.

If you make $100k/year then after taxes you should hover around $70k/year. With a $200k loan, you can pay off $20k a year for the next ~11 years. I would find it enjoyable to live off $4.1k+ a month($50k/12 months) to pay for housing, travel expenses, car payments, food, and probably enough to max a Roth IRA. ($800 for rent, $400 for food, $160 for gas, $150 for utilities, $100 for car insurance, $300 for car payment, $400 for retirement account, leaves you with $1800/month for spending!!!)

 

[owlegrad]

If you make $100k/year then after taxes you should hover around $70k/year. With a $200k loan, you can pay off $20k a year for the next ~11 years. I would find it enjoyable to live off $4.1k+ a month($50k/12 months) to pay for housing, travel expenses, car payments, food, and probably enough to max a Roth IRA. ($800 for rent, $400 for food, $160 for gas, $150 for utilities, $100 for car insurance, $300 for car payment, $400 for retirement account, leaves you with $1800/month for spending!!!)

Rubbish! No one can live on less than 200k! Pharmacists make a pittance I tell you, a pittance!

It's a trap!

 

[Jackie B]

Rubbish! No one can live on less than 200k! Pharmacists make a pittance I tell you, a pittance!

It's a trap!

Well, no, pharmacists make a lot of money. But the rising cost of the pharmacy degree is trouble. Especially in CA. Pharmacists here don't make a **** load more money compared to other states. Yet the degree here is almost double the price of other states. Take a look at USC - http://pharmacyschool.usc.edu/programs/pharmd/pharmdprogram/fa/cost/

67k x 4 years = 268k. I estimated 200k in previous posts because I would be living with my parents if I went to USC. But most people don't have the luxury of living at home and commuting.

You might say USC is just expensive, but it's not. UCSD and UCSF which are state schools are a little cheaper but not by much.

 

[pharm B]

Well, no, pharmacists make a lot of money. But the rising cost of the pharmacy degree is trouble. Especially in CA. Pharmacists here don't make a **** load more money compared to other states. Yet the degree here is almost double the price of other states. Take a look at USC - http://pharmacyschool.usc.edu/programs/pharmd/pharmdprogram/fa/cost/

67k x 4 years = 268k. I estimated 200k in previous posts because I would be living with my parents if I went to USC. But most people don't have the luxury of living at home and commuting.

You might say USC is just expensive, but it's not. UCSD and UCSF which are state schools are a little cheaper but not by much.

That's not the pharmacy degree, though. That's just the ludicrous cost of education in California. In Texas, I think my tuition is like $18k a year.

 

[chemguy79]

that's not the pharmacy degree, though. That's just the ludicrous cost of education in california. In texas, i think my tuition is like $18k a year.

ding, ding, ding!

 

[owlegrad]

That's not the pharmacy degree, though. That's just the ludicrous cost of education in California. In Texas, I think my tuition is like $18k a year.

Agreed. I always forget that people from CA don't realize how different their states is from...every other state. 😀

 

[Jackie B]

18k a year?? that's CHUMP CHANGE. Wow I need to move to Texas.

Also, higher education costs are weird here. We have the cheapest community colleges (Like $26/unit) out of the whole country (actually, we're second compared to somewhere random like South Dakota). Our California State University system is excellent, undergrad tuition is only 5k a year. Our state really subsidizes the CCs and cal states. The University of California (UC) system is semi-private so it's more, at 12-15k a year but you get private-school quality education for a cheap price. I mean, I think UCSD was recently rated the best school in the country and UCLA, Berkeley, UCSF, Irvine, etc fall closely behind. Even master's programs at the Cal State level are cheap - it might just be the healthcare professional schools that hike up the tuition, obviously they can cuz us idiots are willing to pay for it!

Also, as a side note, yes most Californians are ignorant about other states lol but in our defense, our state is like a 13-15 hour drive lengthwise and 5-6 hour drive widthwise. There's a lot of CA and we're in a bubble. I mean the east coast states are like 2 hr x 2hr lol

 

[hye345]

18k a year?? that's CHUMP CHANGE. Wow I need to move to Texas.

Also, higher education costs are weird here. We have the cheapest community colleges (Like $26/unit) out of the whole country (actually, we're second compared to somewhere random like South Dakota). Our California State University system is excellent, undergrad tuition is only 5k a year. Our state really subsidizes the CCs and cal states. The University of California (UC) system is semi-private so it's more, at 12-15k a year but you get private-school quality education for a cheap price. I mean, I think UCSD was recently rated the best school in the country and UCLA, Berkeley, UCSF, Irvine, etc fall closely behind. Even master's programs at the Cal State level are cheap - it might just be the healthcare professional schools that hike up the tuition, obviously they can cuz us idiots are willing to pay for it!

Also, as a side note, yes most Californians are ignorant about other states lol but in our defense, our state is like a 13-15 hour drive lengthwise and 5-6 hour drive widthwise. There's a lot of CA and we're in a bubble. I mean the east coast states are like 2 hr x 2hr lol

Right you are. Thats why I applied to ONLY out of state private schools 😀

 

[bluesky711]

In CA and TX, you only get in-state tuition if you're a resident. OOS tuition is usually twice as much.

 

[Judgment Dragon]

I'm in Texas, first year, but I know someone who graduated from the same school I'm at and she just graduated May 2011 with $114,000 annual salary. She works at a hospital.

What is the hospital and where is it? What pharmacy school did she graduated from and are pharmacy classes graded pass no pass or letter graded?

 

[xtsukiyox]

Just a side note... From what I see, it looks like we're coming up on an "education bubble" (to borrow an unfortunate popular term). People are paying more & more for degrees that don't really matter and taking on lots of debt to go with it. The reason being, a lot of people have been told that (any) college is the way to go for a good career. But they miss a key consideration - how is your BA in Liberal Arts going to get you to that great career? What is your ROI if you decide to get it from a pricey private college?

While Pharmacy is definitely a practical degree with a clear career path, I agree with doing this critical analysis prior to pursuing the career. This necessarily includes considering how much you are likely to make when you come out of school.

There are good reasons that social workers & teachers are not more prevalent, even though both will (nearly) always be in demand.

 

[Kansas Pharmer]

Just a side note... From what I see, it looks like we're coming up on an "education bubble" (to borrow an unfortunate popular term). People are paying more & more for degrees that don't really matter and taking on lots of debt to go with it. The reason being, a lot of people have been told that (any) college is the way to go for a good career. But they miss a key consideration - how is your BA in Liberal Arts going to get you to that great career? What is your ROI if you decide to get it from a pricey private college?

Ding ding ding ding! What do we have for him, Johnny?

Absolutely correct. School standards have fallen and "everyone should have a college degree." Problem is, if everyone has a a degree, does anything actually get better?

The only good thing is hardly anyone has advanced degrees. This should keep most of us fairly safe until a bachelors degree becomes the final step in the gubment school program and everyone gets it for free.

 

[LazyMooch]

I live with 4 humanities majors who are all seniors (2 communications, 1 creative writing, 1 history) and they only have $10-12 an hour jobs lined up. You can literally feel the angst in the house hahahah. They all like to joke that I'm souless, but at least my family will live in a stable financial environment. BA liberal arts degrees around here generally come at 70-80k a pop. ****ty ROI much?

I've come to the conclusion that an easy major will make college the best four years of your life, but a difficult, rewarding one will make the other sixty much better...

 

[SHC1984]

If you make $100k/year then after taxes you should hover around $70k/year. With a $200k loan, you can pay off $20k a year for the next ~11 years. I would find it enjoyable to live off $4.1k+ a month($50k/12 months) to pay for housing, travel expenses, car payments, food, and probably enough to max a Roth IRA. ($800 for rent, $400 for food, $160 for gas, $150 for utilities, $100 for car insurance, $300 for car payment, $400 for retirement account, leaves you with $1800/month for spending!!!)

$800 for rent? That's enough for a small apartment...if you want to buy a house it will be at least a few thousand a month unless you put down a huge down payment (but that also mean you need a lot of $$$). So you think it is worth it to work your ass off, get a PharmD and live in an small apartment near college students forever? I personally want to own a home in 2-3 years.

$300 for a car payment? My car is already paid for, but $300 a month sounds very low. My two friends in pharmacy school both are leasing cars and their payment each month is around $580.

Like I say, yes you can live like that but that means living like a student...if you think working your ass off for a PharmD and then graduating and living like you are still in college is okay...then so be it. I personally do not.

Oh and BAD NEWS everyone: The Gov is getting rid of Sub Loans for next year. So that means ALL your loans will have interests growing and compounding the DAY you get it. 😱 I am just glad I am about to graduate pretty soon cuz taking out all unsub loans makes it pretty much not worth getting a degree anymore. There are many other ways to make money, this def is NOT the only way.

 

[chemguy79]

$800 for rent? That's enough for a small apartment...if you want to buy a house it will be at least a few thousand a month unless you put down a huge down payment (but that also mean you need a lot of $$$). So you think it is worth it to work your ass off, get a PharmD and live in an small apartment near college students forever? I personally want to own a home in 2-3 years.

$300 for a car payment? My car is already paid for, but $300 a month sounds very low. My two friends in pharmacy school both are leasing cars and their payment each month is around $580.

Like I say, yes you can live like that but that means living like a student...if you think working your ass off for a PharmD and then graduating and living like you are still in college is okay...then so be it. I personally do not.

Oh and BAD NEWS everyone: The Gov is getting rid of Sub Loans for next year. So that means ALL your loans will have interests growing and compounding the DAY you get it. 😱 I am just glad I am about to graduate pretty soon cuz taking out all unsub loans makes it pretty much not worth getting a degree anymore. There are many other ways to make money, this def is NOT the only way.

SHC, given your history on the board, I have to question your comments about anything financial in nature. You left one graduate program for another program (the reasons that I reached after reading your posts were that you wanted an easier schedule than a dentist and you didn't like the "gross" nature of the field, although why you didn't know this before you started the program confuses me) and you have stated repeatedly that you would rather not have to work.

This makes me question why you ever decided to pursue dentistry or pharm school. It's great to want to make money ... EVERYONE wants that, but did you know that you were going to have to work after graduation and make some sort of sacrifices after finishing your program?

Finishing a graduate program isn't the end game, it's the start of the game. IMO, one should live like a student initially after school to manage your debt load otherwise you're making fiscally irresponsible choices. You seem to want/expect a lavish lifestyle immediately after finishing school as some sort of a reward for finishing a program when frankly, you should finish the program because it's a commitment that you made to yourself and the school when you started the program.

Edited to add:

I paid $308 a month (6 year lease) for a new car in 2004 and I'm currently paying $675 (originally $720, but I received a month of rent free) for a 1 bedroom apartment in the RTP in a great neighborhood. IMO, you probably have higher expectations for a car/apartment than I do.

Furthermore, with respect to leasing a car ... they're probably going for a VIP vehicle because that's an INSANE price for a car lease.

A few thousand dollars a month for a mortgage? What type of a house are you expecting? I have colleagues who are paying marginally more for their mortgage than I am on 3 bedroom/1.5-2 bathroom houses in this area. Granted, the RTP is rather cheap financially, but it's not THAT much more expensive unless you're living in SF, SD, NYC, etc. You're in Atlanta, surely you know that unless you're trying to live like the Real Housewives of Atlanta, houses aren't THAT expensive.

 

[SHC1984]

SHC, given your history on the board, I have to question your comments about anything financial in nature. You left one graduate program for another program (the reasons that I reached after reading your posts were that you wanted an easier schedule than a dentist and you didn't like the "gross" nature of the field, although why you didn't know this before you started the program confuses me) and you have stated repeatedly that you would rather not have to work.

This makes me question why you ever decided to pursue dentistry or pharm school. It's great to want to make money ... EVERYONE wants that, but did you know that you were going to have to work after graduation and make some sort of sacrifices after finishing your program?

Finishing a graduate program isn't the end game, it's the start of the game. IMO, one should live like a student initially after school to manage your debt load otherwise you're making fiscally irresponsible choices. You seem to want/expect a lavish lifestyle immediately after finishing school as some sort of a reward for finishing a program when frankly, you should finish the program because it's a commitment that you made to yourself and the school when you started the program.

I went into dentistry for the money...that wasn't a smart decision on my part at all. I went into pharmacy for the job security, at the time that I applied for pharmacy school the job market was still pretty good. I don't hate the job of a pharmacist. It's a job, like washing laundry or cooking...it's something that I don't mind doing but I def don't love it. I went into pharmacy because I thought it would give me very good job security, I could find a job easily, and the money isn't too bad either. I went into pharmacy for that reason.

You are right that it is WORTH IT 100% for a person to go after pharmacy, get into insane amount of debt etc. if that is what they really want to do. If they really really I MEAN REALLY LOVE pharmacy from the bottom of their heart....if that is the case, then sure, take on 250K of debt why not? you love it!

However, 99.99999% of the people choose the healthcare profession because they are like me. They want a good paying job with good job security and they want to easily be able to find a job when they graduate...that is the reason why most people choose healthcare (not because they love it more than anything in the world...don't lie please). So to most people pharmacy would be a diaspointment b/c 10 years ago it offer those advantages, but now it does not.

If you are the .000001% that truely love pharmacy above all else and would do it for free b/c you love it so much! then I am not talking to you, pharmacy will be worth it no matter what. But to the rest of us that don't really love it but are doing it for the money and job security...it's not worth it.

 

[UNMorBUST]

SHC, you need to not make outrageous claims (99.9999% of people).
Also I would not make claims about car payments( not everyone drives a lexus) and not make claims about housing payments (not everywhere in the US costs the same).

That is all. 😎👍

 

[rxlea]

She's just going to marry a rich husband anyway.I suppose marrying for the money is sorta like prostitution and that's a job. When I was in Switzerland, I saw that prostitution is legal (and regulated) and washing laundry pays 20 bucks an hour. Not bad, eh? A job is a job is a job? Is that right SHC?

 

[pharm B]

I went into dentistry for the money...that wasn't a smart decision on my part at all. I went into pharmacy for the job security, at the time that I applied for pharmacy school the job market was still pretty good. I don't hate the job of a pharmacist. It's a job, like washing laundry or cooking...it's something that I don't mind doing but I def don't love it. I went into pharmacy because I thought it would give me very good job security, I could find a job easily, and the money isn't too bad either. I went into pharmacy for that reason.

You are right that it is WORTH IT 100% for a person to go after pharmacy, get into insane amount of debt etc. if that is what they really want to do. If they really really I MEAN REALLY LOVE pharmacy from the bottom of their heart....if that is the case, then sure, take on 250K of debt why not? you love it!

However, 99.99999% of the people choose the healthcare profession because they are like me. They want a good paying job with good job security and they want to easily be able to find a job when they graduate...that is the reason why most people choose healthcare (not because they love it more than anything in the world...don't lie please). So to most people pharmacy would be a diaspointment b/c 10 years ago it offer those advantages, but now it does not.

If you are the .000001% that truely love pharmacy above all else and would do it for free b/c you love it so much! then I am not talking to you, pharmacy will be worth it no matter what. But to the rest of us that don't really love it but are doing it for the money and job security...it's not worth it.

Funny thing. I heard 75% of all statistics are bogus.

Besides, talk to the nurses in the hospital and see what they think about your theory. They're doing far more grueling work, and the ones pounding the deck and changing bed pans, etc, are not making anywhere near as much as a fresh pharmacy grad.

I've been reading about MBA's lately, and that's the degree that blows my mind with regard to return on investment. Some of these programs are ridiculously expensive, and in some fields people look at them as really high degrees. To be honest, I have no need for a six-figure tuition Columbia MBA.

But apparently someone does, as they're still offering it.

 

[Kansas Pharmer]

Funny thing. I heard 75% of all statistics are bogus.

Actually, 50% of statistics are made up 2/3rds of the time

 

[xtsukiyox]

She's just going to marry a rich husband anyway.I suppose marrying for the money is sorta like prostitution and that's a job.

At least her husband will have excellent MTM & very clean teeth? (OK, it was funny to me.)

$800 for rent? That's enough for a small apartment...if you want to buy a house it will be at least a few thousand a month unless you put down a huge down payment (but that also mean you need a lot of $$$).

My house costs $787 a month, with taxes & mortgage insurance included. I put down the FHA 3% (right before it went to 3.5%). 3 bed, 2 bath. Living expenses are not made equal.

 

[SHC1984]

She's just going to marry a rich husband anyway.I suppose marrying for the money is sorta like prostitution and that's a job. When I was in Switzerland, I saw that prostitution is legal (and regulated) and washing laundry pays 20 bucks an hour. Not bad, eh? A job is a job is a job? Is that right SHC?

Does marrying rich equal prostitution? No, but that's something fat bitter women usually say. You'll offer to donate your kidneys if your lifestyle could be 1/10000 as good as Melinda Trump's.

I don't see how that is on topic with this thread though. 🙄 The topic of this thread is: is a pharmacy degree worth it if a person has to take a pay cut while taking out mass amounts of loans 200K.

The answer is no. Yes, you can live very frugally and live in a small house and drive a old car etc. But how is that any different than anyone else? A high school dropout's lifestyle is like that. I mention 99.99% of people that are getting doctorates EXPECT A BETTER STANDARD OF LIVING. How is that untrue? 🙄 So you are telling me that people are getting a PharmD while expecting to DECREASE their standard of living? I don't think so...give me a break here. Taking out 200K in loans while making a pharmacist's salary means that your standard of living will be like anyone else standard of living BUT most people's job's are not nearly as stressful as a pharmacist's and they don't have near the amount of responsibilities etc.

So since you think it is worth it to take out a massive amount of debt while making 60K after taxes/401K. Can you please educate us on how it is worth it? And saying that you can live in a small house while driving an old car isn't really saying much b/c you could have done that as a high school drop out.

 

[SHC1984]

SHC, you need to not make outrageous claims (99.9999% of people).
Also I would not make claims about car payments( not everyone drives a lexus) and not make claims about housing payments (not everywhere in the US costs the same).

That is all. 😎👍

I drive a Volvo now...the Lexus has died in a crash. LOL...

My claims are not outrageous. Yes, you can buy a small house and pay 800 a month and drive a old used car for 300 a month. But how is that any different than anyone else?

Do you really think that someone that's going to work their ass off in graduate school to get their doctorate should really expect the SAME OR WORST standard of living than someone that didn't go to college?

Is it UNREASONABLE for someone with a doctorate degree to expect an IMPROVED standard of living? I think not.

That's all that I am saying.

 

[chemguy79]

I drive a Volvo now...the Lexus has died in a crash. LOL...

My claims are not outrageous. Yes, you can buy a small house and pay 800 a month and drive a old used car for 300 a month. But how is that any different than anyone else?

Do you really think that someone that's going to work their ass off in graduate school to get their doctorate should really expect the SAME OR WORST standard of living than someone that didn't go to college?

Is it UNREASONABLE for someone with a doctorate degree to expect an IMPROVED standard of living? I think not.

That's all that I am saying.

Heh ... If your claims are for merely an "IMPROVED STANDARD OF LIVING", I'm curious about the silver spoon that you grew up with. Yes, your claims are OUTRAGEOUS, even for my colleagues who work for my company as pharmacists. They are FAR from paupers, but you are clearly lacking in understanding the financial way of the world. Before switching programs, did you have an actual job? How are the pharmacists living on your externship rotations? Have you actually found a place to get your hours? I remember that you were having issues with that during the summer.

FYI ... I paid 300 a month for 6 years on a NEW car, girlfriend. 😀 35 mpg gas mileage to boot. Still serves me extremely well.

If you expect a 550/month car LEASE and a 2000/month mortgage, that is on you. Once you find your sugar daddy, it's likely possible. I wish you the best of luck. However, given your debt after quitting one program and starting another expensive program, I'm curious about how you're going to be able to afford your IMPROVED standard of living that you seem entitled to achieving.

 

[xtsukiyox]

My claims are not outrageous. Yes, you can buy a small house and pay 800 a month and drive a old used car for 300 a month. But how is that any different than anyone else?

A 3 bed 2 bath is small? 😱

Hmm, perhaps middle class is the new lower class. It's larger than my grandparents' house, slightly smaller than my mom's house, and much larger than my dad's condo. 😛

 

[xtsukiyox]

However, given your debt after quitting one program and starting another expensive program, I'm curious about how you're going to be able to afford your IMPROVED standard of living that you seem entitled to achieving.

chem, while I agree that you've probably found someone who does cross the line into feeling "entitled," I think the OP didn't really sound entitled to me. Perhaps he's guilty of phrasing the concept of ROI poorly, but I didn't read entitlement.

 

[SHC1984]

Heh ... If your claims are for merely an "IMPROVED STANDARD OF LIVING", I'm curious about the silver spoon that you grew up with. Yes, your claims are OUTRAGEOUS, even for my colleagues who work for my company as pharmacists. They are FAR from paupers, but you are clearly lacking in understanding the financial way of the world. Before switching programs, did you have an actual job? How are the pharmacists living on your externship rotations? Have you actually found a place to get your hours? I remember that you were having issues with that during the summer.

FYI ... I paid 300 a month for 6 years on a NEW car, girlfriend. 😀 35 mpg gas mileage to boot. Still serves me extremely well.

If you expect a 550/month car LEASE and a 2000/month mortgage, that is on you. Once you find your sugar daddy, it's likely possible. I wish you the best of luck. However, given your debt after quitting one program and starting another expensive program, I'm curious about how you're going to be able to afford your IMPROVED standard of living that you seem entitled to achieving.

Most pharmacists that graduate 10+ years ago didn't have to take out near as much loans as people do now. The pharmacists that I worked with I have heard anything from 50K in debt to no debt. I never said anything about living like a pauper if you graduate with no debt. Honestly, I have never heard of anyone taking out 200K debt until I came on this forum. I am just on here recommending NOT to take out anything near 200K b/c your life will be a living hell afterwards.

My parents paid for my dental school. I'll have around 70K to 80K in debt when I graduate from pharmacy school. I would never be insane enough to take out 200K for a degree b/c I know how that will work out when I graduate. I am on here just warning those that didn't really think about how bad it would be to pay off 200K+ in loans when they graduate.

If I had to take out 200K for a degree, I'll just take that 200K in invest in something else and make MORE money. Back to my original quote "PharmD is not the only way or the easiest way to make money."

How is wanting a car that cost $550 a month and a mortage that cost $2000 a month TOO MUCH to ask for if a person worked their ass off to get a doctorate while everyone else was relaxing? I think getting a doctorate degree is a **** load of work and people that got that degree deserve to be properly compensated and that means living better than the rest of the population. How is that wrong again?

 

[chemguy79]

Most pharmacists that graduate 10+ years ago didn't have to take out near as much loans as people do now. The pharmacists that I worked with I have heard anything from 50K in debt to no debt. I never said anything about living like a pauper if you graduate with no debt. Honestly, I have never heard of anyone taking out 200K debt until I came on this forum. I am just on here recommending NOT to take out anything near 200K b/c your life will be a living hell afterwards.

My parents paid for my dental school. I'll have around 70K to 80K in debt when I graduate from pharmacy school. I would never be insane enough to take out 200K for a degree b/c I know how that will work out when I graduate. I am on here just warning those that didn't really think about how bad it would be to pay off 200K+ in loans when they graduate.

If I had to take out 200K for a degree, I'll just take that 200K in invest in something else and make MORE money. Back to my original quote "PharmD is not the only way or the easiest way to make money."

Two of my pharmacist colleagues are recent grads (within the last 2-3 years from UNC). They have debt, but they had little interest in racking up more debt before managing their current debt load.

I totally agree that 200K of debt is superfluous and rather risky. However, it's not impossible (You won't live on ramen and taking public transportation) and I view it as an investment towards a career that you are passionate about. I'm sure that I'll have 100K to add on my current student loan debt by attending UNC, it doesn't really phase me because I'll be doing a job that I like and the income potential (even if it is merely 70K as a worst case scenario) makes it worthwhile.

I'm more so aback by your blasé attitude about pharmacy being merely a job and a way to make money. (However, hearing that your parents paid your way for your joyride to dental school and you're graduating with minimal debt as a pharmacist ... I can somewhat understand your mentality.)

Maybe I'm a bit of an idealist, but if you have that lackadaisical attitude before even graduating, I'm fearful of your interactions with patients. That sentence sounds a bit severe and I apologize if it does offend you at all, but seriously ... you're working in a field where you are dealing with the well being of people, viewing it as just a job as a means for you to afford a $600/month car lease and a $2000/month mortgage ... it kind of sickens me.

 

[chemguy79]

chem, while I agree that you've probably found someone who does cross the line into feeling "entitled," I think the OP didn't really sound entitled to me. Perhaps he's guilty of phrasing the concept of ROI poorly, but I didn't read entitlement.

I can see that better now, xtsukiyox. I was struck by the OP's phrasing and it sent me more so towards entitled versus concerned about future debt. I have the mentality as someone who has worked a job for 3+ years and having been in the workforce, I'm not concerned about the debt of pharmacy school because you'll make at least 80K after graduating. Even with taxes and such, it's still a TON of money.

 

[chemguy79]

How is wanting a car that cost $550 a month and a mortage that cost $2000 a month TOO MUCH to ask for if a person worked their ass off to get a doctorate while everyone else was relaxing? I think getting a doctorate degree is a **** load of work and people that got that degree deserve to be properly compensated and that means living better than the rest of the population. How is that wrong again?

As someone who attended graduate school and has a graduate degree as well ... we differ in the fact that I didn't have the attitude that someone owed me anything after graduating. I worked my ass off in graduate school 50+ hours a week for chump change, was lucky enough to find a job after graduating while colleagues are STILL job hunting, etc. I don't feel that I deserve anything because I finished a program, it's what one SHOULD do when starting a program.

 

[SHC1984]

Maybe I'm a bit of an idealist, but if you have that lackadaisical attitude before even graduating, I'm fearful of your interactions with patients. That sentence sounds a bit severe and I apologize if it does offend you at all, but seriously ... you're working in a field where you are dealing with the well being of people, viewing it as just a job as a means for you to afford a $600/month car lease and a $2000/month mortgage ... it kind of sickens me.

I think it is funny that people always assume liking money= bad pharmacist that will make mistakes. I don't think that correlates at all. If I was the clumsy type that would make a million mistakes a day and kill a patient then I would NOT choose to be a pharmacist. I choose a job b/c 1) job security 2) lifestyle and money and 3) If I will be GOOD at it or not. If I suck at something I don't care if it paids a million dollars a year. I would not do it. What you say doesn't offend me, it's just werid that people would associate liking money to an error prone or bad pharmacist. My orthodontist loves money more than anything else in the world but he also did a damn good job on my teeth. He is like the best orthodontist in the city and he told me himself he loves money and is doing his job for the money (he is friend's with my family) so I don't think your correlation works here.

I understand your point here and I guess we are just different. I would said most people would expect something in return for their hardwork and delication while a few others do not. If I work hard for something, it's always because I want a return. If my result is the same as me NOT working and relaxing...then obviously I would just NOT work and relax. I guess there are people out there that could work their ass off and expect NOTHING in return, but that is just not me and AGAIN I don't see anything wrong for expecting something IN RETURN for working hard. If you don't then that's a good thing, but most would. No one on here can convince me for being "wrong" because I expect something in return for my hardwork.

 

[rxlea]

Fat bitter women? LOL

The point is that, from your posts, people might conclude that you have no freakin idea what it means to be a pharmacist nor do you have a grasp onwhat it means to be self sufficient. I am not trying to be offensive but before you start comparing pharmacy to a laundry washing job or go on about welfare patients, you should really ponder what you are getting yourself into. I don't think you're a MEAN person but I do think you are naive and it might be a good thing for people to point it out to you.

 

[xtsukiyox]

I can see that better now, xtsukiyox. I was struck by the OP's phrasing and it sent me more so towards entitled versus concerned about future debt. I have the mentality as someone who has worked a job for 3+ years and having been in the workforce, I'm not concerned about the debt of pharmacy school because you'll make at least 80K after graduating. Even with taxes and such, it's still a TON of money.

Dude, I been at the same company for 6 years, 344 days, and I can tell you I would be down right foolish without that experience.

I can see both sides of it - I've never been in debt for school, and I am about as nervous as when I took the loan for my house. It's definitely good to make sure your ROI will be worth it for such a large debt (I'm betting a lot of people haven't even taken a car loan yet by the time they enter pharmacy school).

On the other side, it would take a lot for a (conservatively) $80k career to not be worth taking on the debt. Am I going to live like a rockstar? Only if I win the lotto. Will I be able to live comfortably & pursue happiness? Sure.

Taking a house loan improved my living situation; taking a student loan will improve my life much more. Speaking strictly from a financial standpoint, in both cases, my cash flow situation will come out a lot better in the short-to-mid timeframe, although my immediate cash flow will be decreased. However, my ability to live paycheck-to-paycheck with few consequences is also significantly diminished (the stakes are higher).

Meanwhile, the Canadians reading this thread are just shaking their head at this foolish American, borrowing so much for a house.

 

[xtsukiyox]

I understand your point here and I guess we are just different. I would said most people would expect something in return for their hardwork and delication while a few others do not. If I work hard for something, it's always because I want a return. If my result is the same as me NOT working and relaxing...then obviously I would just NOT work and relax. I guess there are people out there that could work their ass off and expect NOTHING in return, but that is just not me and AGAIN I don't see anything wrong for expecting something IN RETURN for working hard. If you don't then that's a good thing, but most would. No one on here can convince me for being "wrong" because I expect something in return for my hardwork.

I don't think it's "wrong" to expect a return. I think the main point is the magnitude of your expected return, and exactly how much you seem to expect it just from having those five magical letters attached to your name.

You seem to have an unrealistic understanding of how much things cost, so I would steer clear of numbers if I were you. You mentioned that your parents paid for your dentistry school, and from the debt numbers you're suggesting, it sounds like they are providing a good amount to support you through pharmacy school. Most of our parents don't have that kind of money, and so we come from fundamentally different places and view money in different ways.

 

[SHC1984]

I don't think it's "wrong" to expect a return. I think the main point is the magnitude of your expected return, and exactly how much you seem to expect it just from having those five magical letters attached to your name.

You seem to have an unrealistic understanding of how much things cost, so I would steer clear of numbers if I were you. You mentioned that your parents paid for your dentistry school, and from the debt numbers you're suggesting, it sounds like they are providing a good amount to support you through pharmacy school. Most of our parents don't have that kind of money, and so we come from fundamentally different places and view money in different ways.

I know how much things cost. I don't mind living in an apartment for the first 1-3 years but I don't think it is unreasonable for a person with a DOCTORATE to live in a house like this Price $699,999 or drive a car like that after getting a doctorate. 😎

 

[phathead]

I'm pretty sure when I get my PharmD my penis will grow an additional 7 inches and my level of awesomeness will be off the chart.

Because, after all, that is why I am going to pharmacy school.

 

[chemguy79]

the point is that, from your posts, people might conclude that you have no freakin idea what it means to be a pharmacist nor do you have a grasp onwhat it means to be self sufficient. I am not trying to be offensive but before you start comparing pharmacy to a laundry washing job or go on about welfare patients, you should really ponder what you are getting yourself into. I don't think you're a mean person but i do think you are naive and it might be a good thing for people to point it out to you.

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