Stigma

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Just a couple of observations that I've made:

1. There is a big difference between physicians now and say thirty years ago. Many of the physicians who graduated back then didn't even have to do a residency. I've met several M.D. who have stated that they felt discriminated against for this very reason. The D.O.s that have felt such "discrmination" may not have done a residency (since you stated they had 90 years experience between the three of them). Also, the fact is that physicians (M.D. or D.O.) who graduated that far back may not receive as much respect from their younger peers.

2. The quality of D.O. graduates have changed signficantly over the last thirty years. When I rotated through UC Davis and Stanford, I met several D.O.s there. At UC Davis, the current chief resident of Neurosurgery is Jeff Mimbs, D.O. There were also Orthopedic trauma fellows there who were D.O.s. While doing a subinternship in Medicine at Stanford, I became interested in Cardiology. I noticed that two of the Cardiologists there were D.O.s as well. One of my classmates also matched at Stanford for Pediatrics. Our students also rotated at UCSF and I was told that the Melanoma fellow in the Dermatology department is also a D.O. My guess is that Stanford and UC Davis' Neurosurgery and Orthopedic Surgery department got over this "stereotype".

http://cardiology.stanford.edu/

Click on the faculty section. I can only cite my experiences in the Northern California area.
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Thank you, Leotigers. Or should I say Dr. Leotigers? As I have been saying repeatedly, although very few seem to be listening, I do not claim to be an expert on this issue. Like everyone else, I have to guage my experiences, such as those I received working in a DO office, so that they conform to my career plans. What I think this discussion needs is more comments from individuals like yourself that are able to back up their comments with indisputable real world experience. It has given me one more thing to think about that I actually feel is worthy of consideration. I was contemplating not taking up North Texas on their interview offer but now I think that I just may. Your post is much appreciated.
 
And why do you think the DO's are at UC Davis and Stanford doing an MD residency? Because they are better programs than the ones offered by DO residencies. Do you think they represent what "osteopathic" medicine really is? You can state how many DO's are in great programs but it just furthers the fact that if you want great training you're going to do an MD residency. There goes your "osteopathic" training once you enter an MD residency. Do you think they have lectures on OMM and its applications? I think not. Why are we always impressed when we see a DO in an MD residency or hospital? To make us feel proud and that we are equal? Because our programs are not good enough? Because the MD world is what matters and getting into their world is an achievement or maybe something we always wanted?
 
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Great point, doughboy. I actually talked to a D.O. who was trained at an allopathic hospital and learned that once you enter a residency program -- be it allopathic or osteopathic -- you become that type of physician. The only difference that may exist -- albeit a fuzzy one -- would be philosophical differences in viewing health an disease.

I wish others would expound on this topic.

Together
 
Relax, doughboy. The point I was trying to make was that being a D.O. would not limit you in terms of finding residencies. Obviously, with only 19 schools, residency options are limited, but they do exist in the D.O. world. Who cares how good the D.O. residencies are? If you don't like them then don't do them. The quality of the residency and the quality of medical school education are two different issues. Why do D.O.s try to get residencies at Stanford and UC Davis? Why do people from Boston U, South Carolina, Tulane, etc... try to get into Stanford? For the same reason I suspect: Stanford or UC Davis' program might be better than their own school or state's programs.

The way I have always viewed OMM is that it is just another one of the subjects I learn in medical school like Histology. Those who are interested in specific subjects might continue the training through residency. For instance, those interested in Histo might go into Path. Those who like OMM go on to do a fellowship in OMM. Who cares if the D.O. Neurosurgery residencies do not incorporate OMM? You can't go through medical school without taking Physio, just as you can't go through osteopathic medical school without taking OMM. Medical school only provides you with the tools from which you can build on during residency. After medical school, you're free to develop whatever clinical skills you choose. Instead of focusing your anger at the lack of quality D.O. residencies, your energy would be better spent building your CV to get the best residency for you. I understand your frustration with D.O. residencies, but since we aren't forced to do only D.O. residencies, then I view these residencies as a bonus. I have friends (US MDs) that wanted nothing more than to be an Orthopod or Neurosurgeon, but didn't match and wound up either quitting medicine after graduation or going into a field that they aren't happy with. Some of them have told me that if they could've done an Osteopathic Ortho or Neurosurg residency they would have. Just view these D.O. exclusive residencies as a bonus.

Georgey - I'm glad I could help and good luck with the applications process. If possible, I would encourage you to try to speak with D.O.s who are currently in residency or have recently graduated. I'm 100% sure that their perspective is very different from the perspective of a pre-med or medical student. After you go through the match or are in residency, you realize that the pre-med myths about what is supposed to happen as a D.O. just never materialize.

P.S. You should e-mail drusso about any questions regarding TCOM.
 
Originally posted by doughboy:
•And why do you think the DO's are at UC Davis and Stanford doing an MD residency? Because they are better programs than the ones offered by DO residencies. Do you think they represent what "osteopathic" medicine really is? You can state how many DO's are in great programs but it just furthers the fact that if you want great training you're going to do an MD residency. There goes your "osteopathic" training once you enter an MD residency.•
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. There are plenty of opportunities to stay in the "osteopathic loop" once you start residency. The AOA is making it easier to register with a local OPTI (osteopathic post-doctoral training institution) and maintain or improve your OMM skills and knowledge. Manipulative medicine is simply another tool to have in your little black bag and I've seen a wide variety of DO specialists incorporate it to varying degrees. I know allopathically-trained DO neurologists, infectious disease specialists, and cardiologists who all use OMT on occassion. One infectious disease specialist I know will routinely use OMT (or refer to an OMM specialist) with all his patients who he follows-up for post-meningitis care. You can certainly imagine that getting over a severe case of meningitis can sometimes be a real pain in the neck. Certainly some specialties lend itself to the use of OMM more than others.

Osteopathic principles and practices are a worldview toward patient care. I know MANY DO's in MD residencies who are very osteopathic in their way with patients. I know DO's in osteopathic residencies who would pee in their pants if they were put on the spot to demonstrate the most basic manipulative intervention.

Bottom line: Just because someone chooses to do an ACGME-approved residency over an AOA-approved residency this does not make them less "osteopathic." There may be a number of reasons for choosing to do so. There are also many opportunities to maintain or improve your OMM skills regardless of where you are training. Your maintaining otherwise is very antiquated thinking.

FYI: http://www.aoa-net.org/PostDoc/aboutres42.htm
 
DITTO! ;)
 
Originally posted by AllAboutTheGame:
•You could also say that MD's are rejects from PA or nursing school. Doesn't mean its true.•
Click to expand...

This is a low blow.
 
I am applying to both MD and DO programs. I would go to the MD programs over the DO that I am applying to because it is easier for residency and not for any other reason. If you get paid the same amount for the same job then I don't see what's the difference. If there is wage or hiring discrimination against DOs, then that is another issue. But let me assure you that this is not sanctioned by US law and, as a matter of fact, is quite illegal.

But having said that, there are plenty of MD programs that I am not applying to because I would have to leave the state (CA) I cannot do that because I would like to stay close to my parents who are ill. I believe that I do have good enough creds to get into a CA MD school and if I were to establish residency in another state, my chances for admission would be higher. But i would rather stay in CA and go to a DO school if I were accepted to only that and not a MD school. So if I end up in a DO school, yes-I will be an allopathic reject, but there will also be many people in MD schools in other states that are less qualified than me because schools in other state schools in states other that CA are less competitive. So please don't generalize about people's motivations for going to one school vs. another. The osteopathic medicine field is rapidly evolving. There were only 5 schools in 1969 and now there are 19. In thirty years from now, there will be more and there will be greater acceptance. Those DOs that have an inferiority complex are rejects.
 
I can't believe that this topic is still active. Bottom line: some osteopathic students were rejected from allopathic schools and some were not (i.e., they chose these over allopathic programs, as difficult as it is for some of you to believe). Doesn't this topic deserve a rest and burial?
 
After talking to my parents, who are old fashioned MDs, they believe that the DO route is a route that is for people who can't get into allopathic medical school. Basically, they see it as a cop out in becoming a doctor. For me, I have seen first hand what DOs do. Quite frankly, I am impressed with what DOs have to offer health wise to the public. Furthermore, I am kind of upset that old timer physicians such as my parents have some views. Makes you wonder why there are problems in health care. Has anyone else encountered any stigma within the medical field when referring to osteopathic medicine? So far, I haven't encountered any stigma. Please share your opinions
 
Unfortunately there have been stigmas attached to D.O.'s saying that they are not as good of doctors as M.D.'s but I think that is slowly going away. They are not as frequently discriminated against nowadays as they were in the past i think. A lot of people who think that they are not as good are very ignorant and really dont know the philosophy behind D.O.'s. In reality, D.O's go thru the same amount of schooling and can hold the same residencies as M.D's so there should be no reason to think M.D.'s are better. Im applying to both MD and DO programs just to maximize my chances of getting in since it is soooooo competitive. There have been a lot of other threads about this topic so if you go thru those you will probably fiind a lot of other peoples opinions. :D
 
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Hey SuzyQ, if you don't mind...could you please share your stats with us all....I am dying to figure out what DO application cycle holds for me. I am applying with a 3.39 GPA (Cum) and I am retaking the MCAT this August...I am having a hard time trying to stay calm about this whole situation.
 
Hi Dr. Doogie,

I want to recommend a book to you. It's called "The D.O.s" and it's by Norman Gevitz. This book tells the history of osteopathic medicine from it's emergence in Missouri to its spread throughout the entire United States. The book goes into a lot of historical depth and explains the struggles osteopathic practitioners faced, but more importantly, it outlines how influential the practice of osteopathy has become and how dedicated the physicians were that believed in their ability to help heal.
Your parents were beginning to practice in a time when osteopathy was still trying to find its place in modern medicine. At that time it was very unconventional to say that there were mind-body connections and that psychological, emotional, and spiritual factors were important in assessing the overall well-being of the patient. While the data is still in the works, scientists are finding more and more "proof" that manipulation therapies and other osteopathic techniques such as craniosacral therapy are effective in treating a variety of ailments. Patients are living proof as well. If they feel better, something has to be working correctly. As a D.O. you receive training in orthodox medicine as well as complementary therapies. My thought on this is, if you want to become a doctor, wouldn't you want the most treatment modalities available to you as is possible? I have worked with a lot of MD's who wish that they would have received instruction in manipulation therapy because some patients just don't respond to pharmaceutical intervention. They also hold absolutely no prejudices against D.O.s It is true that there are a greater amount of DOs in specific regions of the US than in others, but you receive the same training as an MD does...just with a more holistic emphasis so you are qualified to practice anywhere.
I will be starting medical school at MSUCOM this fall and I cannot wait to be a D.O. I graduated from an Honors program in Psychology with a very decent GPA (I'm not trying to boast, but you asked for stats) and I had a basically average MCAT. I did not score all double digits. While I knew I had a chance at MD programs, I was so impressed by what I saw when I worked with a DO that my mind was totally made up. Also, osteo schools look heavily upon your community service/clinical experience record. If you shine here, apply! They love to see people who not only make the grade, but who demonstrate the compassion and motivation to practice medicine. Best of luck to you! Feel free to email me if you have any other questions.

Julia
 
Hey Doctor Doogie.....my GPA is a 3.8 cummulative and I'm also retaking the MCAT in August. Let's just say I was really disgusted with my score :eek: and I know I am capable of much MUCH better.
 
No matter who you are, where you went to school, what degree you have... someone will always look down on you. If you went to a 2nd tier college, someone from UVA will look down on you. If you went to UVA, someone from Harvard will look down on you. Who cares.

I am a 4th year DO student... applying to MD residencies as we speak. I haven't experienced any stigma about DOs except the stigma that i put on myself.

I am a good medical student and will be a good physician. DO or not I dont' think it mattered where I went to school or if it was an MD or DO school. I never spent much time in lecture anyways.
 
I'm a D.O. and have experienced no "stigma." Nurses carry out my orders, patients seem appreciative of my care, and my MD upper-levels and attendings treat me with respect. Gee, maybe I'm an exception, but I don't think so....
 
my wife just had triplets so we've been in the NICU a lot lately. One of the neonatologists who i really get along with was doing rounds last night and we got to talking. i told him i was starting med school and looking into neonatology as a possible profession. he boasted about how much he loves it and so i asked what his take on the whole DO thing is-- in his sub-specialty for neonates, the doc in charge of it all was a DO. He told me that this doc is the best he has ever seen-- EVER! So he told me-- be the best at what you do, don't get into all the politics, just be genuine and you'll do/be what ever you want. I personally believe that the docs with negative views on DO's are more the exceptions to the rule.
 
DoctorDoogie

I can already tell you that your unbiased opinion of the situation is going to make you a better physician than either of you parents, regardless of where you go to school.

Good luck in the future.
 
Hey, when your parents tell you MDs are above DOs, ask them why the AMA has consistently offered the AOA a delegation representation and voting rights in the AMA's House of Delegates? I would think if MDs didnt see us as equals they wouldnt want us voting with them in their own meetings. The AOA has consistently turned the offer down, as the AOA is not merely a specialty college of the AMA nor do we want to be. As for the old timer- MDs, dont sweat them. They're dying off. Actually, there's just as many old timer- DOs who swear by the teachings of Still (a man who didnt believe in immunizations) and dont represent this profession as a whole either. The two fields are merging faster now than ever before, and will continue to do so, but the AOA is correctly maintaining the osteopathic distinction. The number of DOs has doubled in 10 years. These doctors are young and just now starting to be promoted to the upper-tier positions in hospitals and professional organizations. Choose a profession based on the merits of your ideas and your love for a patient, not for the letters after your name. The letters in front of your name are still the same.
 
I definitely think that whatever anti DO feelings that still exist today will be gone as soon as the older dinosaurs retire. I guess I won't be surprised if a doctor who graduated in 1950 looks down on me for being a DO because back then most MD's did. The younger generations of MD's work in a medical profession in which DO's are on equal footing. If they don't know it now, they will eventually.

I look at it this way, any of the younger MD's who would look down on me for my initials, probably looks down on other MD's who aren't of the same specialty as themselves, for example, a surgeon looking down on a family practitioner.

Or it simply could be that that person just happened to work with some incompetent DO's in the past, and his bias is due to experience. The only thing you can do is do your best. DO or MD, I can't imagine anyone would withhold a level of respect for any physician who proves him or herself competant. If they do, just walk up to them and scream at the top of your lungs, "STICKS AND STONES MAY BREAK MY BONES....."
 
Fenrezz...I have a hard time reading and following your posts with that picture staring me down. Please change it. :)

Now to address what you said...

I don't think the antiDO feelings will ever be non-existant. I think they may diminish, and will probably diminish greatly from where they are now, but not totally.

I think the one population which currently has the biggest bias, and understandably so, is the premedical community. For the most part, health professionals don't care (the ones who understand the difference, anyway...most are as ignorant as the layperson). And laypeople don't really care because they don't know the difference...many are clueless that DOs even exist. There are people who have been seeing DOs for years and never knew it.

I recently had my graduation party and my whole family turned out. I took the opportunity to educate them about osteopathy. I had all positive responses from my family. My uncle (who is an RN working in administration) is thrilled that I've decided to go to DO school. I had another family member tell me that they recently spent time in an ER where "The doctor was a DO and he was so nice, and so smart..."

Anyway...the anti-DO feelings will always be there.

I think the most important thing will be to educate the public. You and I have both read the postings in the Allopathic forums. Most of those folks are awesome...they understand and respect the difference. There are also people in those forums who are iffy and unsure...nothing wrong with that.

But then you get those ignorant people who couldn't tell the difference between a DO and an MD if they met one in a dark alley, but they swear that DOs are inferior.

I can see it now...a made-for-tv movie... A father, brought up to hate DOs, is forced to bring his dying son to a DO after he is thrown from his horse. Amazingly, the DO is able to help the poor boy and bring him back to health. The father, in the last scene of the movie, embraces the DO with a tear in his eye and proclaims that he is a changed man. Ahh...Lifetime should pick up that script.

We need to educate the public first. They are the ones who matter. I couldn't give a darn if an MD colleague thinks I am incompetent. But when I have a patient who doesn't trust my judgement...that is where you can have problems with patient compliance and other things.

So, keep the faith. Will it ever end? No. Does it really matter? Absolutely not. And, if you ever come across an MD that gives you a hard time because you're a DO...just tell him that his wife wasn't complaining about the OMM you gave her. ;)
 
Remember, we're talking about the DOs as a whole, not a specific school, and certainly not a specific person. I've found that people love to bring up exceptions...when in reality we're all just discussing generalities. As a group, the DO schools need to do a couple of things if they want to shed the stigma. I realize that the DO schools say they like to look at the whole applicant, that's great, they should. That said, they need to start attracting some students with higher academic credentials AS A GROUP. I realize that individual schools may be much better than some allopathic schools, but as a group you have to admit they have lower MCAT scores and GPAs than the average allopathic school. "Whole person" credentials are very difficult to quantify (or even qualify for that matter) and thus it makes it harder for the osteopathic schools to show themselves off. If they AS A GROUP can push up the GPAs and MCAT scores of their applicants and their matriculants, they can further the still major work needed on shedding such a stigma. Basically, the goal should be to NOT have someone immediately consider the osteopathic profession when they get back low MCAT scores.
 
none

Your last post is stupid and poorly thought out.

You are saying that schools should accept people with the best academic numbers, not the people who will make the best doctors.

I want to see a study that correlates GPA and MCAT scores with how well a physician performs in practice.

Even show me a study that links GPA and MCAT with how a student does in medical school.

I know people who had a hard time breaking 1000 on the SAT, yet they scored above a 35 on the MCAT. I know another who was ranked in the bottom 20% of his high school class and graduated college magna cum laude with the highest GPA in his major.

I think the general public will benefit greatly when MD schools begin to consider more than numbers when selecting matriculants. You will find a better breed of physicians. I'm not saying you shouldn't be held to academic standards, but to say that DO schools should raise their standards and place a greater emphasis on academics rather than the other qualities that will make a more well rounded and successful student, well, I already called your post stupid so I will refrain from using the word again.
 
How exactly would you like to quantify the job performance of a physican? Here are the studies you asked for regarding medical school performance:
http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/research/bibliography/start.htm

The OP asked about the stigma and I rather strongly believe the stigma comes not only from the origins of osteopathy, but also from the current lower academic averages of osteopathic matriculants AS A GROUP. You can argue that academics aren't the most important factor for a physician, but it doesn't change the source of the stigma attached to osteopathy. Further, there shouldn't be any reason why the osteopathic schools couldn't raise their academic admission standards while maintaining their current "whole person" applicant qualities.

Finally, I take some issue with the idea that osteopathic schools are simply selecting candidates with other stats over those with high academic credentials. I believe osteopathic schools are actually having some trouble attracting applicants with competitive academic numbers AS A GROUP compared to allopathic schools. Here is some data depicting this:
http://www.medicalgold.com/premed/mcatgraph1.html
http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/examineedata/appmat.htm
 
ER actually wanted to put a DO on the show, but they were going to make the guy a resident who stole drugs and became this strung-out addict I think. The AOA knocked it down from what I hear. Michael Chricton came up with ER and has most of the final say in the show. He's a Harvard Med grad, although he never did a residency. Good luck convincing him. They even make fun of Caribbean grads on that show.

Chicago Hope is off the air I think but I think there's a new show coming out called, of all things, "M.D.s".

As to the whole "D.O." vs "M.D." thing, I heard that years and years ago the AOA thought about the idea of switching DO to MDO, but the plan fell through for some reasoning involving the fact that we're "Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine", not "Medical Doctors of Osteopathy." I personally dont see the difference, but the powers that be did supposedly. It's not something that I would see as totally out of the picture in 10-15 years as this profession continues to become more and more mainstream but in reality, plenty of people recognize what a DO is, especially in the health care realm. It's only of real concern to premeds and message boards like this.
 
Originally posted by JPHazelton
Fenrezz...I have a hard time reading and following your posts with that picture staring me down. Please change it. :)

Now to address what you said...

Anyway...the anti-DO feelings will always be there.

I think the most important thing will be to educate the public. You and I have both read the postings in the Allopathic forums. Most of those folks are awesome...they understand and respect the difference. There are also people in those forums who are iffy and unsure...nothing wrong with that.

But then you get those ignorant people who couldn't tell the difference between a DO and an MD if they met one in a dark alley, but they swear that DOs are inferior.

I can see it now...a made-for-tv movie... A father, brought up to hate DOs, is forced to bring his dying son to a DO after he is thrown from his horse. Amazingly, the DO is able to help the poor boy and bring him back to health. The father, in the last scene of the movie, embraces the DO with a tear in his eye and proclaims that he is a changed man. Ahh...Lifetime should pick up that script.

So, keep the faith. Will it ever end? No. Does it really matter? Absolutely not. And, if you ever come across an MD that gives you a hard time because you're a DO...just tell him that his wife wasn't complaining about the OMM you gave her. ;)
Click to expand...

There's a new avatar just for you, JP. :D

I agree with just about everything you wrote except for the made-for-TV movie. We should throw in an ironic twist where, although the DO is able to help the kid, their HMO refuses to cover the cost, so the man brings his gun and takes over the hospital, taking other patients as hostages, until the hospital agrees to fix his kid's hangnail....

I was pleasantly surprised by many of the osteopathic threads in the MD forums. Most of the pre-MD people are very mature and knowledgable about the differences. Of course there are always those who "heard" about how easy it is to get into osteopathic school (I saw one post that claimed a 2.5 GPA is the range for DO schools - I guess I applied to the wrong schools).

However, in the end, if SDN is at all indicative of the future of healthcare professionals, I'm reassured that although the stigma will never be completely gone (you're right about that), eventually most MD's and DO's will work with mutual respect for each other.

If not, I'll be sure to bring my bat to work with me.
 
It seems to me that the public is not as educated, in regards to osteopathic medicine, as we hoped it would be. With time and continued overall great work by osteopathic medicine, DOs will soon lose almost all of the stigma associated with them. Remember, the public is ill-educated about osteopathic medicine. Therefore, it is the job of the DOs and future DOs to educate. A big part of medicine is to not only treat symptoms but to educate better health care to the community and patient.
 
Originally posted by Fenrezz


There's a new avatar just for you, JP. :D

Click to expand...

Your new avatar is giving me motion sickness!!! (even without moving!)
 
Originally posted by Dr/\/\om


Your new avatar is giving me motion sickness!!! (even without moving!)
Click to expand...

Fenrezz,
Please tell me that's not your real pic. :)
 
I think people will look down on you if you let them. For instance, during undergrad, the Pre-Med students that were bias towards the Osteopathic profession couldn't look down on me, Cos hell I was smarter and I had better grades than most of them anyways. Also, the few that were extremely smart and had better stats than myself, went to the DO school.
 
My limited experience with DO training has taught me a couple of things...one, the rotations I did at a DO hosp. were top-notch, great time in my training...however I would NEVER do it again, as I am paying dearly for that time...unfortunately I accepted a contract in a state(one of these,PA,WVA,MI,FL,and OK)and the licensing board would not accept those rotations(see Clinical rotation thread:Doublle standard on Clinical Rotations). In reality Md can not get credit for rotations in DO hospitals...here's is where the clincher is, DO doctors who decide such things are supporting this inequality...DOs' receive credit for training in allopathic hosp. If they would join the AMA and work together on this issue alone they could make a difference. States would have only one licensing boards and not two separate /divided requirements. Plainly, Mds' have no problem supporting DOs' seeking training in our hospitals and giving them credit for it, therefor DOs' should do the same. Some of this division is internal guys and it's up to you to change things. Work things out with the AMA and step up to the plate. Note: another intern has to make up 38 weeks of rotations just because of this ruling, try paying off your student loan when you are not getting paid hardly an hourly wage. And working your butt off. Pure nonsense!!!
 
You know, since no one speaks latin any more, they should make MD's DM's, and then they can make DO's DOM's. That may attrack the dominating types though. I can see it now... "Hello, I am Dr. Bob and I will be your DOM today." *cracks whip* Ok. This was all random. I am chalking it up to lack of sleep.

~AS1~
 
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