Strong Post! Lend me your thoughts!

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mountain man

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  1. Other Health Professions Student
Hey folks! Let me vent first because I have 2 rejections so far! I am a PA (29 male) resident currently applying to vet school! I am no NERD, nor do I float around like the sugar-plumb fairy! (if you know what I mean). It is a shame that it seems like I am one of the only normal males applying to vet school this year. Just because there is not a ton of money to be made, men like myself want nothing to do with this field (they go into engineering, or industry, MBA, "NBA" ect). Perhaps I am a bit old fashioned, but I like hard work. I have been a farmhand all my life, and those of you that know this life, will agree that a farm animal vet has to deal with adverse weather conditions, long hours, rigerous labor, injury, little pay (less than most high school teachers), not to mentain the ability to converse with and befriend farmers and others that are less educated and academically skilled. I can't stand to see some of these vets come out to the farm (floating along 😉 pretending that they are high and mighty (and you know they are but they don't want to be there) and tell a farmer about his/her livestock as if they really know the information! 😡 Right now, this moment! There is a need for large farm animal vets. If the people they are letting in now (and over the past few years) are getting the job done, then why do we still have this problem? I am not saying I am the best qualified person for the job, (remember I told you I was no nerd, but I can hold my own academically) but others are! Where are they? When will the problem be FIXED? Most folks that can solve hyperbolic equations, get >700 GRE quantitative, truly understand isomeric molecules, and can jot down the entire Krebs cycle don't want to get called out on a herd check for 125 cattle, or go up the birth canal to rearrange a calf, or get pinned up against a stall with an 1100 pound animal . I would hope people this highly intelligent would be in a lab some place working on the cures for CWD, or other prion diseases, or avian influenza and not out wasting their time with people's pets teeth, or fixing twisted abamasoms. Well enough said, sorry if this sounded rude but what do you all think? Be honest too, I can take insults
 
If that's the attitude you presented the admissions committees, I'm not surprised you were rejected.
 
Alright, well that was a bit of a blunt paragraph. But, I think he has a point. I am a male vet student that is going into large/mixed animal rural practice. I would bet that out of 72 people in my class, less than 20 are in any way interested in large animal medicine. The vast majority seem to be girls from large cities, interested in owning a small animal clinic in downtown Toronto or Vancouver. Meanwhile, there is a desperate need for large animal doctors throughout Canada. I assume the situation is similar in the US. I realize that many of these 'farm kids' applying do not have the credentials, grades, experience that many people in my class have, but surely future practice plans should play some role in admissions, particularly when the need is there?? (I know from first hand experience - my hometown has been looking for a vet for 4 years and can't attract anyone to the rural area) And I don't buy the argument that many people change their minds while in vet school and decide to pursue LA meds, it just doesn't happen. Personally I feel many schools should have two streams and a certain # of people into each stream -say 30% SA and 30% LA with 40% mixed. Anyone else care to comment?
 
Mountain Man,

Apply to the University of Glasgow (if you haven't already)! The majority of my class want to do mixed practice and over half the class chose to track "farm animal" vs. equine in our final clinical year. You get GREAT farm animal education here, along with everything else (a very balanced curriculum).

I see your point indeed. Somehow, most people want to be small animal or equine vets. There's definitely a problem.
 
I'm from Oklahoma, in OKstate vet school, and I know first-hand, many of my classmates (and those in other classes as well) are farm kids and have more interest in farm animals than small animals. I've heard of several vets that have graduated from here say they were considering mixed or small until they got bit by a dog and then they wanted nothing further to do with small animals. :laugh: I'd also go out on a limb to say that Texas A&M is similar though I don't have any personal experience about that. And I really don't know about other regions. I must admit that I'm more a small animal person, so I kinda find it funny to walk into someone's house and see it decked out with sheep or cow stuff, but I guess it might be the same for them if they saw all my dog and horse stuff. 🙂

I also think that there's enough highly intelligent people to fill lab environments and veterinary roles. And I think we have a need for them to be in both. I think that in some ways lab environments are easier because today we have so much technology that helps us interpret data. But no vet is just going to do simple tasks such as fixing a twisted gut. At some point, every large animal vet is going to be out there facing a herd of cattle with symptoms that don't fit nicely into any disease we've seen before, it is very important for the vet to be intelligent enough to figure out the best course of treatment based on what knowledge they have.

And I have to stand up for they guys in my class who are normal, very respectful, and would never get high-and-mighty to their clients. Maybe it's because I am in Oklahoma where many still learn the old fashion lessons of curtesy and respect being more important than making a name for yourself, but even the guys from out of state that go to school here are mostly humble and respectful. Some of the girls might . . . but I won't get into that. 😛

Besides, a lot of farm medicine does not require you to have a DVM. I know that there are several options to get involved with large animal medicine and health without going through vet school. But of course I didn't pay much attention that day in class since it didn't really interest me so know I don't know all the details about that. A lot of times a farmer doesn't need an actually vet, but just someone who can vaccinate, dehorn, and castrate. Anyone with an Animal Health degree should be able to do that.
 
mountain man said:
Hey folks! Let me vent first because I have 2 rejections so far! I am a PA (29 male) resident currently applying to vet school! I am no NERD, nor do I float around like the sugar-plumb fairy! (if you know what I mean). It is a shame that it seems like I am one of the only normal males applying to vet school this year. Just because there is not a ton of money to be made, men like myself want nothing to do with this field (they go into engineering, or industry, MBA, "NBA" ect). Perhaps I am a bit old fashioned, but I like hard work. I have been a farmhand all my life, and those of you that know this life, will agree that a farm animal vet has to deal with adverse weather conditions, long hours, rigerous labor, injury, little pay (less than most high school teachers), not to mentain the ability to converse with and befriend farmers and others that are less educated and academically skilled. I can't stand to see some of these vets come out to the farm (floating along 😉 pretending that they are high and mighty (and you know they are but they don't want to be there) and tell a farmer about his/her livestock as if they really know the information! 😡 Right now, this moment! There is a need for large farm animal vets. If the people they are letting in now (and over the past few years) are getting the job done, then why do we still have this problem? I am not saying I am the best qualified person for the job, (remember I told you I was no nerd, but I can hold my own academically) but others are! Where are they? When will the problem be FIXED? Most folks that can solve hyperbolic equations, get >700 GRE quantitative, truly understand isomeric molecules, and can jot down the entire Krebs cycle don't want to get called out on a herd check for 125 cattle, or go up the birth canal to rearrange a calf, or get pinned up against a stall with an 1100 pound animal . I would hope people this highly intelligent would be in a lab some place working on the cures for CWD, or other prion diseases, or avian influenza and not out wasting their time with people's pets teeth, or fixing twisted abamasoms. Well enough said, sorry if this sounded rude but what do you all think? Be honest too, I can take insults

If you're pissed about not getting into vet school - than upgrade your grades and pad your resume with experience. Just because someone wants to do farm animal medicine, doesn't mean that the standards of admission should be lower for them.
 
I sympathize with you, it can be frustrating on waiting to hear/being rejected from vet schools. I also agree that animal/veterinary experience should be weighted heavily in the admission process, though academics are important as well. Unfortunately many students are competing for few slots, and anything that makes a certain applicant stand out will be noticed such as impressive grades.

If you don't make it this year, just keep trying. It'll pay off in the end, and complaining won't get you anywhere. Good luck!
 
Thank you everyone, for your replies. I feel a little better today after reading your posts. That information about Glasgow is cool. Would you believe I did apply to PEI last year and turned down the interview! (I guess I am pretty stupid). I guess the bottom line is that not everyone will agree on the same things presented here, and in all actuality it is my own fault that I can't (and more than likely won't ) get in. I don't want to criticize those that are more intelligent than me, in fact I envy them. I just wish there was more room in vet school for average students. Some of my friends with similar credentials to myself, are engineers, owners of construction companies, and two are in osteopathic medical school. It just does not seem right to me that I would have to be more academically gifted than them to be a large farm animal vet. Like I said in my last message, I have grown up working on the farm (dairy & beef). I helped the veterinarians with many proceedures, and most of them are very routine. Yes I know that sometimes there are herd diseases that take some great consideration on understanding bacterial organisms, but I know from my experience I have never, ever, witnessed a farm animal vet solve a very complex herd case. That does not mean that they are doing their best, but I know we had an E. coli scare about 9 years ago, wich completely puzzeled our local vets, so samples had to be sent to the University of PA for them to figure it out. I assume an RN could have taken the samples the way they did. It just don't make sense to me why I could not do this job or why I have to go all the way down to Ross to prove myself when I pay PA taxes that Univ of PA now uses. Well, I don't want to bore anyone any longer, but I do have information to share, and some to ask. Like some of you I got rejection letters from Virginia (12/03), and Purdue (01/06). I have applied to and I am still waiting to hear from Illinois, Minnesota, Ohio, Tufts, Tennessee, Florida, Guelph, Penn, and Louisiana. I just checked the mail today (01/07) and no letters. Does anyone know anything about the selection process at Guelph, and Illinois? Has anyone herd anything from these schools yet? Thank you for your response. 🙂

Mountain man
 
mountain man said:
Thank you everyone, for your replies. I feel a little better today after reading your posts. That information about Glasgow is cool. Would you believe I did apply to PEI last year and turned down the interview! (I guess I am pretty stupid). I guess the bottom line is that not everyone will agree on the same things presented here, and in all actuality it is my own fault that I can't (and more than likely won't ) get in. I don't want to criticize those that are more intelligent than me, in fact I envy them. I just wish there was more room in vet school for average students. Some of my friends with similar credentials to myself, are engineers, owners of construction companies, and two are in osteopathic medical school. It just does not seem right to me that I would have to be more academically gifted than them to be a large farm animal vet. Like I said in my last message, I have grown up working on the farm (dairy & beef). I helped the veterinarians with many proceedures, and most of them are very routine. Yes I know that sometimes there are herd diseases that take some great consideration on understanding bacterial organisms, but I know from my experience I have never, ever, witnessed a farm animal vet solve a very complex herd case. That does not mean that they are doing their best, but I know we had an E. coli scare about 9 years ago, wich completely puzzeled our local vets, so samples had to be sent to the University of PA for them to figure it out. I assume an RN could have taken the samples the way they did. It just don't make sense to me why I could not do this job or why I have to go all the way down to Ross to prove myself when I pay PA taxes that Univ of PA now uses. Well, I don't want to bore anyone any longer, but I do have information to share, and some to ask. Like some of you I got rejection letters from Virginia (12/03), and Purdue (01/06). I have applied to and I am still waiting to hear from Illinois, Minnesota, Ohio, Tufts, Tennessee, Florida, Guelph, Penn, and Louisiana. I just checked the mail today (01/07) and no letters. Does anyone know anything about the selection process at Guelph, and Illinois? Has anyone herd anything from these schools yet? Thank you for your response. 🙂

Mountain man


I was looking into Guelph but they required the MCAT. Did you take the MCAT or did you somehow get it waived. One of the pathologists at my work actually taught there and said it is a very very good school. Why did you turn down the interview to UPEI? If you want to get in that bad, then you probably should have gone. But there could be other factors that I am unaware of. For myself if I had to go to the other side of the world I would (Of which I am).
 
mountain man said:
It just does not seem right to me that I would have to be more academically gifted than them to be a large farm animal vet. Like I said in my last message, I have grown up working on the farm (dairy & beef). I helped the veterinarians with many proceedures, and most of them are very routine. Yes I know that sometimes there are herd diseases that take some great consideration on understanding bacterial organisms, but I know from my experience I have never, ever, witnessed a farm animal vet solve a very complex herd case. Mountain man


I think you have a very narrow view of ambulatory LAM/LAS. You may think you want to be "just a large animal vet" but you're still going to have to pass the NAVLE and possibly individual state boards - on ALL species, not just the ones you choose to work with post gradution. Not to mention, just because you want to work on large animals doesn't mean they don't suffer the same complex biochemical issues. For example, you mentioned "fixing a twisted abomasum" well, if you had a cow in front of you with a strong suspect RAV, do you understand how and why that patient is likely going to suffer hypochloremia, hypocalcemia and metabolic alkalosis? With your attitude, you seem to think you can skate by with knowing HOW to do things, but not the WHY behind it. Medicine and surgery involve the whole process. Large animal medicine isn't any easier than another sector of the profession and shouldn't be thought of as such.

Improve your grades, improve your GRE scores, broaden your experience if you want it bad enough, it might happen for you.
 
I keep telling myself I won’t get mad coming in here, and I did offer an apology for venting my anger in the first post, however this person assumes I am a complete naïve. I am sure you will treat your patients the same way some day using all the condescending technical jargon to explain a common sickness (I’m sure you think you’re the best too) (after all you are in vet school and I'm not). Well I don’t want to argue with you too much because eventually you will show you know more biochemistry than me but remember,..I am not in vet school! However you are wrong that I have no experience b\c I worked on a farm my whole life, worked at a small animal hospital for 3 yrs, worked in wildlife rehabilitation for 5 yrs, and own multiple animals at home. I am also a graduate student in lab animal science, and I just finished a biochem course with some pre-meds. Now the reply below is a combination of what I know, and what I have looked up. I understand it, I don’t have a 720 quantitative GRE score, so why can’t I be a vet like you? I am not a know –it- all, and I have much to learn, so read my post if you have time, I worked hard typing it (no studies this weekend, and I can’t type too fast) for the last 45 min. If you see something wrong correct me, I'm not afraid to learn, even though I'm a bit of a meat head! LOL! 😀

Actually (from what I have learned) there are three versions of the twisted stomach. The most common, the LDA is found on the left, with a “ping” (I’m sure you know this). The most common sign is going off grain. The second is an RDA, and it is then found on the right side. The third, and worst, is RTA which is a twisted abomasum which cuts off the blood supply and if not quickly repaired, results in a dead cow. All of these have different causes, and the breed of animal makes a difference...So what exactly is a displaced abomasum? The condition is simply when the 4th stomach (true stomach like ours) fills with gas and floats from its normal position on the belly floor up to the left (LDA) or right (RDA) just beneath the ribs. There is a characteristic “ping” that can be heard if striking your finger upon the ribs while you have your ear on the cow or use a stethoscope. Most DA’s float up to the left (when looking at the cow from the rear), especially in the first month of lactation – mainly because there is room to do so since the calf no longer takes up belly space and the rumen is not yet filled to capacity. A small portion are RDA’s which is fortunate because they can be deadly (due to the internal anatomy of the ruminant belly). Please beware that either kind of DA can happen at anytime in the life of a ruminant (cow, bull, calf, goat, sheep, etc) but that RDA’s seem to be more common later in lactation when most farmers aren’t thinking about the possibility of a twisted stomach anymore. In my experience, some kind of feed problem (molds) usually causes these late lactation RDA’s. Unfortunately since most farmers don’t suspect an RDA, the animal receives supplements and continues to deteriorate until metabolically very unstable and emergency surgery needs to be done, if it is possible still at all. Learn to listen for pings. The typical LDA in early lactation has two basic causes. The first type usually occurs in the first 5-12 days fresh and is due to calving difficulties (large calf, milk fever, etc) giving a retained placenta, infection, fever, ketosis, decreased gut motility and the classic LDA ping. The second type occurs independent of the calving event (all went well and cow cleaned) and happens about 2-4 weeks fresh when the cow is apparently doing really well and then all of a sudden is off-feed and ‘twisted’. This is due to ration problems of not having enough effective fiber and lots of carbohydrates (starch) that will create a rumen acidosis. This upsets the normal rumen bacteria and the cow goes off-feed with a rapid development of ketosis and an LDA quickly develops. Even though the LDA seems to come on overnight, the underlying feed problem probably was brewing for a little whileThis cow is deathly sick because of the torsion and obstruction and accumulation of fluid in abomasum, and also is sick b/c she gets hypochloremia, hypokalemia, and paradoxic aciduria and metabolic alkalosis. Think about this, the cow metabolically becomes deathly ill b/c serum chloride falls, b/c it is accumulating in the abomasum. The cow is constant HCl secretor, so H+ and Cl- go into abomasum and stay there. Serum Cl then falls, she gets hypokalemic. K+ is also going into the abomasum and she's not taking any in. Now normally cows eat a lot of potassium and kidneys normally thorw a lot of potassium away and it keeps doing it till she gets hypokalemic. she gets paradoxic aciduria, so in the face of metabolic alkalosis, where her pH is rising, you'd think the kidney would throw away bicarb but it does not, it reabsorbs it and throws away acid. Urine pH is acidic why is this happening, because of the low Cl which - causes kidneys to malfunction this way. The metabolic correction for this is to give her chloride. Don't use balanced electrolyte solution because there is not enough Cl-. also there are bicarb precursors in there too. Use sodium chloride because saline which is 0.9% salt, contains 154 mEq/L of chloride. Now, for every liter of saline we give her we're adding lots of chloride ions to her serum and ECF. that is how you combat the metabolic alkalosis - raise chloride level. She'll probably need 40-50 L of this and needs fluid because she's dehydrated. Before this was understood, they did surgery but cows died anyway so you have to treat with saline while doing surgery. How do you do the surgery? Make an incision, a right paralumbar fossa celiotomy, and abomasum is right there. It's filled with fluid and gas. If we can untwist without draining it, do that, or else drain it first. use stomach tube passed through purse-string opening into abomasal wall. You'd like to untwist so she can reabsorb all that ion rich fluid but often you have to drain it. When its done, some people do omentopexy to prevent recurrence. We do not know if that works.you know it is untwisted when the duodenum is to the right of the abomasum. compensated metabolic alkalosis is what develops in these cows.
 
Mountain man, if this is what you really want to do, don't give up.


frozen_canadian said:
Personally I feel many schools should have two streams and a certain # of people into each stream -say 30% SA and 30% LA with 40% mixed. Anyone else care to comment?

I don’t think it’s wise to control this from the supply side. The big shift in veterinary practice from working equine/food animal to companion animal didn’t happen because the schools changed. It happened because clients demanded it.

Cars replaced horses. Dogs and cats became members of the family. Clients demand medical care for these animals and are willing to pay for it. Their mother had a hip replacement when she broke her hip, so they want one for their dog with hip dysplasia. Their brother had chemotherapy for cancer, so they want that for their cat. Clients didn’t change because the veterinary schools changed, the schools (and veterinarians) shifted because client expectations changed.

On the other hand, food animal production is changing from millions of family farms, to a small number of intensive production facilities. Margins are very small so producers are limited in what they will pay for a veterinarian to perform “fire-engine” procedures. Farmers complain that they’re aren’t enough large animal veterinarians, but the real problem is farmers as a group aren’t willing/able to pay what it realistically takes for a veterinarian to provide these services.

It’s like earlier this year when my wife was complaining she couldn’t find any hay. When I asked her why the guy we usually buy from didn’t have any this year, she said “Oh he’s got hay, but it’s $5.50 a bale.”

There wasn’t a shortage of hay. There was a shortage of cheap hay.

Besides, if you divide enrollment into various groups, how are you going to enforce that? What happens when a student games the system and enrolls as large animal because it’s less competitive, figuring he will so into small animal when he graduates? Or someone has every intention of doing food animal, but then finds she can’t make a living doing farm calls in her town and switches to small animal?
 
There is a new vet school opening in Calgary. Its going to be a three year program (full time, no summers off). They are going to require that you pick one of three streams - large food animal medicine, research, or...I forget the other one. Anyway basically I guess your education is tailored to what 'major' you pick. The students will take some classes with the medical students, and some of their own. Also, say you pick food animal med. You will spend a large amount of time out in practice, under the guidance of a working veterinarian, since they do not plan on having a teaching hospital. Its an interesting concept, and it'll be good to see how it works out (if all the politics ever get worked out). However, I wouldn't want to be the guinea pig in that school!
Anyway, Alberta hopes this will help reduce their large animal med shortage, and also get more people into government/academia where there is also a shortage.
 
Hey guys,
I'm just going to step into the Moderator shoes oh-so-briefly for a friendly reminder to keep the discussion on veterinary topics and avoid any personal bickering. 🙂

Thanks!
 
Am I the only one who finds the homophobia offensive, or did I completely misinterpret the reference to the sugar plum fairy?

That aside, I agree there's an unfortunate shortage of large animal vets. But the standards for farm vets should be just as high (if not higher) than for those in small animal medicine. They are the caretakers of our nation's dairy and beef supplies! And their decisions in the matter of antibiotic use influence the path of microbial resistance, which affects everyone.
 
Thank you for the comments, everyone. UKYWildcat, I am sorry for bickering with you. Please accept my apology. From now on I will only check in to share information, and if someone argues I will just leave. 🙂

As for my last application with PEI, this is quite a story. This story may sound exaggerated but I assure you it is true, and perhaps it will encourage some of you to apply. I finished the VMCAS 9/04, and my letters soon followed. One of my classmates was also applying, only she was reapplying from the previous application cycle in which she was offered an interview in, I think 2/04, but was rejected. So the both of us submitted our applications together, we completed our graduate fall 04 semester exactly alike. She also applied to a few US vet school, but I only applied to PEI, because they were willing to take older science courses (more than 6 years), and I did not complete a biochemistry course yet. Both of us checked the mail every day, and knowing she was there before for an interview, I had a load of questions for her. She was able to give me lots of information, and even gave me her c.v. to read. After knowing her, and her academic background I determined we were almost alike as applicants (which is also why we were in the same grad program). She got word sometime in 2/05 about an interview, and I herd nothing. Now I knew she was a reapplicant and had the advantage so I figured they almost had to contact her first. Eventually in 3/05 she was accepted. Now at this point I knew that they did not have to contact me for anything (in fact they could have tossed my application if they wanted to), but I was still puzzeled as to why I did not even hear anything. Another classmate told me she applied there 2 years prior, and they never got back to her! Not even a rejection! So I started getting scared, but continued to wait the rest of 3/05, 4/05. By the first week in May I could not stand it any longer, so I emailed admissions and asked them if they were sending rejections this year. Now keep in mind that this is a very nice school, the admissions people were always very nice in all their correspondence with me. They sent a reply message that my name was not on the consideration list any longer. That is almost exactly what the message said, but I did not even ask them that question. LOL! Well, after that I just figured that was the only rejection I was going to get, so I started focusing my attention on returning to school in the fall, and working the rest of the summer at the vet hospital. Now here is the wild part; in late July I get a letter in the mail (maybe 7/25, or something) from PEI, it was skinny so I thought, well it looks like I finally got my rejection letter. My girlfriend is sitting at the table and I gave her the letter to open, she does, and starts reading that PEI is sorry for not communicating with me (please believe this) and that they were still considering my application for the fall...I could not believe what I was hearing. This is after almost a full year of waiting, plus being told I was no longer being considered back in May. At that point I bagan to have mixed feelings, because it took me almost 2 months of trying to forget about the place, now they were considering me again! Two weeks later (2ond week in August) I get a phone call at work from PEI, to arrange an interview. They gave me two dates only 5 days away to be at the school. I sat down with my girlfriend, and other family members and struggled to make a decision. Could we really trust UPEI after all of that? Well either way, I made the decision to email them that I will give up the interview, and more than likely end all of my chances for vet school. Now I am finishing my grad program this year, and I am waiting for my rejections. I may, or may not attent Ross, but I think my best bet is to just end it after this year. I love animals, but I guess if I could not get up the nerve to go to PEI for an interview, than maybe I am not as motivated as I appear.
 
I wondered about the sugar plum fairy thing too - there are some gays in my class and seem to be really good vet students. I don't think sexual orientation should determine whether you make a good vet student or not.
 
I am glad that other people recognized the "sugar-plum fairy" comment and the odd smiley face next to it in the original post. . .it's good to know there are people out there in the veterinary and pre-veterinary fields who also might find such comments offensive.
 
I don't think that making a person choose a specific track before they start vet school is the right answer for this. There are some vets who changed the specialization several years after graduating from vet school. Many people don't know, and some people think they know but will change their mind after a few semesters of school.

I think we could use more vet schools though. After all, there's over 100 medical schools is the US but only a little over 25 vet schools. That's the main reason that vet school is more competitive. There's just not enough room in the schools to accommodate the number of qualified people who apply each year.
 
HeartSong said:
I don't think that making a person choose a specific track before they start vet school is the right answer for this. There are some vets who changed the specialization several years after graduating from vet school. Many people don't know, and some people think they know but will change their mind after a few semesters of school.

I think we could use more vet schools though. After all, there's over 100 medical schools is the US but only a little over 25 vet schools. That's the main reason that vet school is more competitive. There's just not enough room in the schools to accommodate the number of qualified people who apply each year.

Yup, my thoughts exactly.
 
mountain man...

I feel your pain. If you want something bad enough, you'll find a way to make it happen. Don't get bitter--get proactive! If you receive an interview invite, give 'em nothing but a positive attitude!!! It may mean the difference between getting in and being left behind.
 
Thank you Loo! Best of luck to you and others. :luck:
 
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