Stuck in a terrible situation...feeling hopeless about MD

[riya.rhino]

I'm feeling a bit screwed for life. I took the mcat twice. Got a 490 the first time but a 516 the second try. Not sure wth happened the first time because I averaged a 510 on the AAMC practice. Afterwards, I realized I had a combination of ADHD and anxiety. It must have surfaced during the mcat I remember blanking out and feeling terrible at the end, but I finished everything on time and answered all the questions. Since people say to not trust post exam feelings too much, I scored it. Of course, I didn't do anywhere near my potential. I did a lot better the second time after getting some help! But I'm genuinely worried my dream at an MD is effectively over because of the first score. So do I stand a chance at MD? Everything else about my app is great...

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[MI2015]

Wait is this a joke?
You got a 516 and a large amount of schools DO NOT average scores. I don't understand why you think you can't become an MD

 

[riya.rhino]

I got a 490 the first time. I feel like med schools will definitely question me about the jump and will not be understanding of my anxiety and emotional problems. I feel I would be a risky candidate to them and as @gyngyn always says "adcoms interpret scores in their own way and see all of them"
Based on what I've read, I thought This one mistake in my judgement could cost me an MD acceptance

 

[Redpancreas]

Medical schools take both scores into account. Some average, some just look at both and try to make sense of what happened. I think you should be find and will be a decent MD candidate barring all other factors. I had a similar scoring situation where I took the MCAT there was a 6 point difference in my MCAT score. I got interviews at places where the the average MCAT they took was my second better score. Congratulations on the improvement!

Personally, I don't have ADHD, but I've at times felt fatigued, hopeless, and feel the need to blank out and I'm very bad with memorization and details at times. Obviously this is nothing compared to what someone with ADHD suffers from so I applaud you for the resilience. I've noticed running really helps with the self-confidence. Obviously do exactly what whoever is helping you says, but consider running. It really releases the endorphins and has many nigrostriatal pathyway benefits apparently! Best of luck

 

[gyngyn]

I got a 490 the first time. I feel like med schools will definitely question me about the jump and will not be understanding of my anxiety and emotional problems. I feel I would be a risky candidate to them and as @gyngyn always says "adcoms interpret scores in their own way and see all of them"
Based on what I've read, I thought This one mistake in my judgement could cost me an MD acceptance

State schools are more forgiving in most cases. Hopefully, you have a good one.

 

[Redpancreas]

I got a 490 the first time. I feel like med schools will definitely question me about the jump and will not be understanding of my anxiety and emotional problems. I feel I would be a risky candidate to them and as @gyngyn always says "adcoms interpret scores in their own way and see all of them"
Based on what I've read, I thought This one mistake in my judgement could cost me an MD acceptance

No. Stop fishing for compliments by pretending you can only see the worst.

 

[Gryffindor20]

OP, relax. That's not how it works. The huge jump is a GOOD thing! If you are asked about it, just say you froze the first time and then spin it into how you coped with the anxiety the second time. It can work in your favor.

 

[gyngyn]

OP, relax. That's not how it works. The huge jump is a GOOD thing! If you are asked about it, just say you froze the first time and then spin it into how you coped with the anxiety the second time. It can work in your favor.

Wait, wait. A low score never works in one's favor. Let's not go overboard.

 

[Gryffindor20]

Wait, wait. A low score never works in one's favor. Let's not go overboard.

I'm saying that the jump is a good thing and can work in your favor. Not the low score. Just the vast improvement. OP seemed to be freaking out a little that they jumped too far.

 

[meeninit]

Wait is this a joke?
You got a 516 and a large amount of schools DO NOT average scores. I don't understand why you think you can't become an MD

I believe that a lot of posts on here are pseudo-troll posts. As in, a post with an ulterior motive where an OP conjures up a post with a fake story and the advice regarding that story would be relevant to his/her actual situation.

This is a method to 1) preserve anonymity and 2) to not get criticized for the actual situation

Though the OP's story may be completely plausible and I'm sorry if I was wrong. But at least some of the posts I've read in the past definitely hinted at being that type.

 

[gyngyn]

I'm saying that the jump is a good thing and can work in your favor. Not the low score. Just the vast improvement. OP seemed to be freaking out a little that they jumped too far.

It's certainly better than a drop...

 

[Gryffindor20]

It's certainly better than a drop...

Exactly. And if asked about it in an interview, it's pretty easy to explain. Better to conquer test anxiety now than when you sit for Step 1.

 

[gyngyn]

Exactly. And if asked about it in an interview, it's pretty easy to explain. Better to conquer test anxiety now than when you sit for Step 1.

I know reviewers who count the first exam as the more likely reflection of Step 1 performance for exactly this reason!

 

[bananafish94]

Well, your averaged score is a 503 which is low but isn't catastrophically low. In reality (and this is just a hunch) I feel like schools would be more inclined to treat that as like a 508-510ish because of such a dramatic jump. After all, it's a lot easier to do extremely badly than extremely well on a fluke. It certainly won't help you but after getting a score that high on your second attempt, I think there will be schools that are interested. If nothing else, turn it into an interesting story.

 

[MI2015]

Wait, wait. A low score never works in one's favor. Let's not go overboard.

This kind of mentality is what causes people who take the test two or three times to freak out. I already mentioned on another thread, but many more medical schools are interviewing a high amount of candidates who have taken the test multiple times. They admire the dedication. Am I saying taking the test once is bad? No, absolutely not. It is the easiest way to go about things. But many many people feel great about their test, and are getting amazing practice test scores, only to do bad on the exam for whatever reason. I respect you gyngyn, but it's not the end of the world. And a list was posted about schools that averaged- over 75% of schools either take the most recent or the highest. Obviously adcoms look at all scores, but from what the adcom members I have talked to said- if there is a large increase in score, it shows persistence and dedication. So I have to disagree some people that taking it more than once is circling the drain.

 

[MI2015]

Well, your averaged score is a 503 which is low but isn't catastrophically low. In reality (and this is just a hunch) I feel like schools would be more inclined to treat that as like a 508-510ish because of such a dramatic jump. After all, it's a lot easier to do extremely badly than extremely well on a fluke. It certainly won't help you but after getting a score that high on your second attempt, I think there will be schools that are interested. If nothing else, turn it into an interesting story.

Hey there. I talked to a family friend who is a member of an MD adcom. Now this is only according to Tx, but as long as there is a huge jump that shows dedication, they don't average the scores. They take the most recent. A 28, 29 will be a 29, but will not look as good as a 25, 30 according to him. The fact that adcoms look at only the first score as representative as Step 1 is odd, considering DO schools have lower MCAT scores in general (esp the newer schools) and they still end up doing fine.

 

[gyngyn]

This kind of mentality is what causes people who take the test two or three times to freak out. I already mentioned on another thread, but many more medical schools are interviewing a high amount of candidates who have taken the test multiple times. They admire the dedication. Am I saying taking the test once is bad? No, absolutely not. It is the easiest way to go about things. But many many people feel great about their test, and are getting amazing practice test scores, only to do bad on the exam for whatever reason. I respect you gyngyn, but it's not the end of the world. And a list was posted about schools that averaged- over 75% of schools either take the most recent or the highest. Obviously adcoms look at all scores, but from what the adcom members I have talked to said- if there is a large increase in score, it shows persistence and dedication. So I have to disagree some people that taking it more than once is circling the drain.

Of course it's not the end of the world.
I am hoping to give a balanced view of a situation in which evaluators are likely to have very differing views on the same data. If the applicant is unaware, he makes poor decisions on his school list, which I find wasteful and sad.
In WAMC, the number of times the OP posts his best score and asks for advice is legion. Our advice will be flawed because multiple attempts is an important variable.

 

[MI2015]

Of course it's not the end of the world.
I am hoping to give a balanced view of a situation in which evaluators are likely to have very differing views on the same data. If the applicant is unaware, he makes poor decisions on his school list, which I find wasteful and sad.

And I completely understand. I respect your knowledge as an adcom, but when I had to take the test twice I felt sure that I was destined for failure, because I thought all the schools averaged and was convinced that I was going to have to get a 36+ to even get an averaged score above 30. There are so many variables that can affect the outcome. I think that people that are able to fix their standardized test mistakes in university are likely to do well on the USMLE.

 

[gyngyn]

And I completely understand. I respect your knowledge as an adcom, but when I had to take the test twice I felt sure that I was destined for failure, because I thought all the schools averaged and was convinced that I was going to have to get a 36+ to even get an averaged score above 30. There are so many variables that can affect the outcome. I think that people that are able to fix their standardized test mistakes in university are likely to do well on the USMLE.

Evidence from the producers of the test indicates that averaging scores is a better predictor. In medicine we learn to use evidence, where it is available.
Many applicants with multiples score are successful, but to deny that it complicates the evaluation of the candidate is wishful thinking.

 

[bananafish94]

Hey there. I talked to a family friend who is a member of an MD adcom. Now this is only according to Tx, but as long as there is a huge jump that shows dedication, they don't average the scores. They take the most recent. A 28, 29 will be a 29, but will not look as good as a 25, 30 according to him. The fact that adcoms look at only the first score as representative as Step 1 is ridiculous, considering DO schools have lower MCAT scores in general (esp the newer schools) and they still end up doing fine.

I basically agree. Again, I'm just speculating wildly as somebody who isn't even in medical school, but this is a situation that's so bizarre that I feel the rule book might have to go out the window. Going from a 490 (like a 19) to a 516 (like a 34) is an enormous, dramatic jump. Looking at that data in a vacuum, I would be inclined to say that the first test was a fluke of some kind. Of course, there are others who would interpret it as a critical error of taking the exam before they are ready. Hopefully by applying broadly, the OP can find enough people willing to overlook the first test.

 

[MI2015]

Evidence from the producers of the test indicate that averaging scores is a better predictor.

I get that. But more schools are moving away from this school of thought. I got a 26 my first time because I had horrible premed advisors who told me that if I voided it would look extremely bad to adcoms. I had no idea that a void didn't show up on the final thing. A good friend of mine thought the test went great and ended up with a 22 on the first time. I also don't get the discrepancy between the fact that DO schools have a lower average, yet many match to good programs and good specialties like MD students do. Idk, I just feel there are so many different scenarios, it's hard to pin down an exact.

 

[MI2015]

I basically agree. Again, I'm just speculating wildly as somebody who isn't even in medical school, but this is a situation that's so bizarre that I feel the rule book might have to go out the window. Going from a 490 (like a 19) to a 516 (like a 34) is an enormous, dramatic jump. Looking at that data in a vacuum, I would be inclined to say that the first test was a fluke of some kind. Of course, there are others who would interpret it as a critical error of taking the exam before they are ready. Hopefully by applying broadly, the OP can find enough people willing to overlook the first test.

I think people who take the exam before they are ready are making a mistake, but I would hope adcoms would realize that all their applicants make mistakes, and this one is easy to learn from. Mistake making and learning from them is a critical part in becoming a competent physician. Idk, I like dedication and determination haha. I don't think this was a fluke, it's very hard to get a 508+ on a fluke imo.

 

[gyngyn]

I get that. But more schools are moving away from this school of thought. I got a 26 my first time because I had horrible premed advisors who told me that if I voided it would look extremely bad to adcoms. I had no idea that a void didn't show up on the final thing. A good friend of mine thought the test went great and ended up with a 22 on the first time. I also don't get the discrepancy between the fact that DO schools have a lower average, yet many match to good programs and good specialties like MD students do. Idk, I just feel there are so many different scenarios, it's hard to pin down an exact.

I have seen no indication that schools are moving away from AAMC recommendations.
If anything, I have seen them become more stringent. It only takes one good school going on probation and others cited for idiosyncratic admissions practices to make us all wary.

 

[MI2015]

I have seen no indication that schools are moving away from AAMC recommendations.

Over 75% of schools do not average. I don't know many that actually average. Texas actually instructs their schools NOT to average, but only look at the highest scores.

 

[riya.rhino]

Okay, now I wish I almost didn't post this thread. It's making me even more nervous…so many differing opinions!

@gyngyn Would you interview someone like me at your school? I have a 3.8+ GPA, solid ECs (leadership, research, extensive clinical, great LORs, fellowships, etc.) Consider everything else to be very good, except for the MCAT discrepancy. Would you interview me? Please be honest.

 

[gyngyn]

Over 75% of schools do not average. I don't know many that actually average. Texas actually instructs their schools NOT to average, but only look at the highest scores.

When you look at what we actually say, it's usually something along the lines of "all scores are considered."
This is just vague enough to allow for the unpredictable interpretation of individual examiners.

 

[gyngyn]

Okay, now I wish I almost didn't post this thread. It's making me even more nervous…so many differing opinions!

@gyngyn Would you interview someone like me at your school? I have a 3.8+ GPA, solid ECs (leadership, research, extensive clinical, great LORs, fellowships, etc.) Consider everything else to be very good, except for the MCAT discrepancy. Would you interview me? Please be honest.

How far apart were they taken?

 

[gyngyn]

Over 75% of schools do not average. I don't know many that actually average. Texas actually instructs their schools NOT to average, but only look at the highest scores.

They actually want them to report the highest scores of matriculants. It's a common practice.

 

[riya.rhino]

How far apart were they taken?

6 months apart…I didn't dare attempt another MCAT without fixing up my emotional issues. I didn't think generalized anxiety and ADHD-like symptoms would trip me up that bad. In hindsight, my first MCAT score may have been a blessing in disguise because it helped me realize and fix what I had. If I entered med school like that, I think I would have gone insane

 

[MI2015]

When you look at we actually say, it's usually something along the lines of "all scores are considered."
This is just vague enough to allow for the unpredictable interpretation of individual examiners.

I cannot speak for AMCAS 100%. But I specifically called TMDAS (since that's what I'm mainly applying) , and they say scores are considered in making sure there is an upward trend. But the majority of weight is placed on the recent score. You're an adcom and i'm just an applicant, but that was something that made me happy about TMDAS.
Also, Texas is more lenient when it comes to scores, hence the majority of weight on the recent score. I know you work in California, which is much more stringent.
Thank you for all your advice gyngyn, much of it has helped me along my application process.

 

[gyngyn]

I cannot speak for AMCAS 100%. But I specifically called TMDAS (since that's what I'm mainly applying) , and they say scores are considered in making sure there is an upward trend. But the majority of weight is placed on the recent score. You're an adcom and i'm just an applicant, but that was something that made me happy about TMDAS.

TX has seceded from the union with regard to medical school admissions and I'll be first to say that a lifetime of trying to understand them has only resulted in modest success!

 

[MI2015]

TX has seceded for the union with regard to medical school admissions and I'll be first to say that a lifetime of trying to understand them has only resulted in modest success!

Haha although it is very nice to only pay a small sum to apply to all the schools!! I am hoping Texas will give me a bite with my 3.4 science gpa though! This is when I'm very glad I don't live in California

 

[gyngyn]

6 months apart…I didn't dare attempt another MCAT without fixing up my emotional issues. I didn't think generalized anxiety and ADHD-like symptoms would trip me up that bad. In hindsight, my first MCAT score may have been a blessing in disguise because it helped me realize and fix what I had. If I entered med school like that, I think I would have gone insane

In CA, we are blessed with an abundance of excellent applicants. Although the re-take is not a deal-breaker, there are more than enough candidates who got a 516 on the first try to make it much less likely that a re-taker with a 490 would be interviewed.
There are plenty of private OOS schools where candidates with this issue are welcomed, though.

 

[riya.rhino]

In CA, we are blessed with an abundance of excellent applicants. Although the re-take is not a deal-breaker, there are more than enough candidates who got a 516 on the first try to make it much less likely that a re-taker would be interviewed.
There are plenty of private OOS schools where candidates with this issue are welcomed, though.

So basically CA would never interview me. Do I still stand a chance at any top schools? Would a school like Duke, UVA, UIowa, NYU etc interview me? Would they maybe II me and then simply wait list me?

This really sucks I think I'm going to move to TX. It really does look like there is not much room, if any, for forgiveness in med school admissions lol

 

[gyngyn]

Haha although it is very nice to only pay a small sum to apply to all the schools!! I am hoping Texas will give me a bite with my 3.4 science gpa though! This is when I'm very glad I don't live in California

With a really good Cgpa, you should be ok. They do love their gpa's in TX.

 

[gyngyn]

So basically CA would never interview me. Do I still stand a chance at any top schools? Would a school like Duke, UVA, UIowa, NYU etc interview me? Would they maybe II me and then simply wait list me?

This really sucks I think I'm going to move to TX.

Are you a CA resident?

 

[riya.rhino]

Are you a CA resident?

No, I am not. But I feel like my profile fits some of the CA schools mission, so I wanted to apply. I also wanted to try for UCSF and Stanford (considering my ECs and research profile) but guess there's no point in wasting my money?

 

[MI2015]

With a really good Cgpa, you should be ok. They do love their gpa's in TX.

I have a 3.7, so not super good, but yeah it does seem like most schools like 3.8+ and 29-30 students. I'm planning on doing a 18 credit postbacc this year in the chance I don't get in this year. That should raise my sgpa to about a 3.55-3.6. Would that be better than doing an SMP?I have a 26, 512 MCAT. The average mcat in TX is a 508, so that helps I guess.
BTW: sorry to highjack your thread riya.rhino!!!!

 

[gyngyn]

No, I am not. But I feel like my profile fits some of the CA schools mission, so I wanted to apply. I also wanted to try for UCSF and Stanford (considering my ECs and research profile) but guess there's no point in wasting my money?

I can't recommend CA schools for you (unless you are Adventist).
But practically speaking, I wouldn't have recommended them even if you only had one 516.

 

[gyngyn]

I have a 3.7, so not super good, but yeah it does seem like most schools like 3.8+ and 29-30 students. I'm planning on doing a 18 credit postbacc this year in the chance I don't get in this year. That should raise my sgpa to about a 3.55-3.6. Would that be better than doing an SMP?I have a 26, 512 MCAT. The average mcat in TX is a 508, so that helps I guess.
BTW: sorry to highjack your thread riya.rhino!!!!

Probably.

 

[riya.rhino]

I can't recommend CA schools for you (unless you are Adventist).
But practically speaking, I wouldn't have recommended them even if you only had one 516.

Okay, I understand. Would other top, research schools be likely to II me though?

 

[gyngyn]

Okay, I understand. Would other top, research schools be likely to II me though?

There are plenty of excellent schools that will welcome your application!
Wake, VA tech, Tulane, Einstein to name a few.

 

[riya.rhino]

There are plenty of excellent schools that will welcome your application!
Wake, VA tech, Tulane, Einstein to name a few.

Okay, thanks. I'm a VA resident right now. But if I move to TX, do you think that will fare better for me? Could I get into UTSW or Baylor as a TX resident with my profile? Or stick to VA?

 

[ysquared]

I can't recommend CA schools for you (unless you are Adventist).
But practically speaking, I wouldn't have recommended them even if you only had one 516.

So sorry to jump in randomly here, but this just scared me so I had to ask. Do you mean that if the OP had only the one 516 MCAT, 3.8+ GPA , and ECs that he/she listed above, you still wouldn't recommend applying to CA schools? (Scared me because I just applied to a few CA schools and my MCAT is only slightly higher)

 

[mehc012]

itt, a random premed jumps in, not simply to offer an anecdote or rein in some of the doom-and-gloom, but to enlighten us all as to what, exactly, the majority of med school admissions folks admire and prefer (spoiler: it's not what anyone, even actual adcoms, thought it was!)

 

[gyngyn]

Okay, thanks. I'm a VA resident right now. But if I move to TX, do you think that will fare better for me? Could I get into UTSW or Baylor as a TX resident with my profile? Or stick to VA?

FL, VA and NC are the hardest states in the South, with 20, 21 and 23% IS matriculation, respectively.
TX has 33% IS matriculation but their requirements for IS status are stringent and specific.

 

[gyngyn]

So sorry to jump in randomly here, but this just scared me so I had to ask. Do you mean that if the OP had only the one 516 MCAT, 3.8+ GPA , and ECs that he/she listed above, you still wouldn't recommend applying to CA schools? (Scared me because I just applied to a few CA schools and my MCAT is only slightly higher)

CA is a very tough nut to crack for anyone. Odds of acceptance are vanishingly low, even for very well qualified applicants. If you are not a candidate for Loma Linda or Stanford the chance of OOS acceptance is about 144/3800 or 0.038.
Go to the MSAR and count the number of OOS applicants and matriculants to every CA school.
Heck, UCR and UCD don't really accept any!
Loma Linda matriculates 75 OOSers, Stanford, 50. If you are not Adventist (or Stanford material) the total number of OOS matriculants in CA was 144 last year. If we assume that the denominator was the number that applied to USC or UCLA it would be about 3800. That's vanishingly small in my book.

 

[MI2015]

itt, a random premed jumps in, not simply to offer an anecdote or rein in some of the doom-and-gloom, but to enlighten us all as to what, exactly, the majority of med school admissions folks admire and prefer (spoiler: it's not what anyone, even actual adcoms, thought it was!)

I was speaking on behalf of Texas, which has different rule than AMCAS, and by a list published that describes how schools look at multiple scores. (spoiler: No need to be snarky about it )
But please, enlighten us all to what Texas prefers when it comes to multiple MCAT scores, since I'm assuming you have a lot of experience with them? Right...?

 

[MI2015]

Okay, thanks. I'm a VA resident right now. But if I move to TX, do you think that will fare better for me? Could I get into UTSW or Baylor as a TX resident with my profile? Or stick to VA?

Schools are really good at knowing whether or not you move there for residency purposes. On TMDAS there is a residency section where it calculates if you are a resident based off of years living in TX, tax returns, or dependent status. It would be hard to just move there for a few months and expect residency.

 

[ysquared]

CA is a very tough nut to crack (for anyone). Odds of acceptance are vanishingly low, even for very well qualified applicants. If you are not a candidate for Loma Linda or Stanford the odds of OOS acceptance are way less than 1%.
Go to the MSAR and count the number of OOS applicants and matriculants to every CA school.
Heck, UCR and UCD don't really accept any!

Oh, I see. If I had realized that earlier I wouldn't have applied to Stanford and UCSF then:/ I guess I'll just skip the secondaries if I get them.