All Branch Topic (ABT) The Army vs AF decision: Need more current information.

[USMCMD]

If this thread sounds repetitive, please be aware that the only current posts I found on this issue were for dentistry, and others were at least 5 years old or did not answer my specific questions.

I am a prior service Marine trying to choose between Army and Airforce HPSP. I am 28 years old, currently working full time in research, already accepted to med school, and have a wife and baby daughter. I have done extensive reading on sdn as well as talked to both services' recruiters and professionals currently working in these services. As a former Marine, I fully understand the "suck". I am aware that my life will be controlled by the military, but I am ready to embrace the "suck" again for the sake of staying out of debt and because I flipping love the military. After all my research, here are my remaining considerations on the Army vs AF decision:

1) I want to do humanitarian missions. I am fully aware that my first responsibility will be to the service members, but I want the opportunity to do a lot of missions work as well. Which service has the best opportunities for this?
---I've been talking to the recruiter and reading sdn about opportunities in Civil Affairs and SF. Does anyone know the career path into either of these?

2) Is the AF quality of life / family life really that much better in the medical field? Are the AF deployments really only six months?

3) It seems like I would have more career options in the Army. It seems like the AF is more geared to Primary Care and the Army has more of everything. Is this generally true?

4) According to both recruiters and the literature from the Army, the Army matches 80% into their first choice of med specialty within Army Residencies. AF recruiter said only 60% of candidates match into AF residencies in general. Is this because more AF people choose civilian (by applying for one unrealistic mil res) or because AF has less opportunities in general?

5) Which service is the worst bureaucratic nightmare?

6) I have the general perception that the Army is just as good at making everything suck as the Marine Corps. Is that true, and is the AF somehow less so?

7) Is there anything to the idea that Military residencies aren't as good as civilian? They reportedly have higher first-time board pass rates than the national average. BS?

I know this is a lot. Thanks in advance,

-USMCMD

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[cowspot83]

Hi,

I am not far enough along in my military career to be able to answer all of your questions- but from my perspective as a 4th year (Army HPSP) there are a few key things you should know when choosing your HPSP branch.

1) Missions- I've seen equal AF and Army residents go on missions for ~1 month periods. No idea about pursuing those routes.
2) Quality of life seems to depend more on your medical specialty than AF/Army.... but the AF people seem to think they have it better.
3&4) These go together and are really important. The army has more specialty training options and often takes more people per specialty. The AF counts on granting a lot of their people civilian deferments - but they don't just grant you whatever you like- they still have a certain number of training positions available per specialty, per class year. Example: for your class they may have room for 10 people to do radiology- but only have 5 AF military training spots.... the other 5 people can be granted civilian deferment, which means they are on their own to match into a civilian residency program. This is great if you know now that you WANT to be civilian deferred- some people choose AF or Navy for this reason. The Army has a ton of training spots, so they do not offer civilian deferments unless extreme circumstances (my class was told 0.2% chance of civilian deferment). This is good in the fact that you can basically count on an Army residency.... it's also good that they have a decent number of spots per specialty (competitive specialties still competitive, but better odds in the Army simply because they have more spots total) This year, on the audition trail, every program I rotated, there was much more competition on the AF side, simply because the same number of people wanted the specialty.... but the AF just has fewer spots available. I did not look into FM/IM.... from my understanding, both AF and Army have plenty of spots. So think about what you might want to do, and if you like the possibility of civilian deferment. Oh, also keep in mind, if you are AF and are dead set on something like Derm, you often end up doing flight surgery first, simply because so many people want it!
5) no idea
6) Army has more paperwork and more online training.....and AF has easier PT tests..... probably not major deciding factors
7) The military residencies are held to the same standards as civilian PLUS additional military standards.... and just like the civilian world they vary by hospital and current leadership Rotate through and see how you like them, but overall they are excellent training programs.

I don't normally respond to stuff, just lurk.... but I rotated with some really awesome AF candidates this summer who were insanely qualified for their specialty of choice and will probably not get their spot simply because the AF doesn't take as many people.... their odds would have been much better in the Army. But it depends on what you want to do, and for me the deciding factor was having no idea what I wanted to do!!! So I picked the Army bc it is the larger branch, with more specialty options, and so far I have been extremely satisfied with my choice. Hope that helps a little, and good luck!

 

[Gastrapathy]

You will note that each of us believe we picked the right service. I hated my time with Army medicine and never forgave the Navy for sending me to work for them. If I had to pick a service, I'd pick Navy again. AF is too small and the Army is bat**** crazy.

1. You may not do any real humanitarian work ever. Even the brief missions you do will be more PR than actual medicine. You are not rejoining a humanitarian organization. That said, the hospital ships are the most frequent player in this.

2. Deployment rules change with the winds. AF has often been the shortest. Past experiences do not predict future results.

3./4 Match rates are misleading. The AF does much more outservice training. Navy will likely require GMO still for competitive residencies. That is a bad thing.

5. Army>AF>Navy

6. Not much

7. Board pass rates are meaningless. Boards are easy. Military residences compare acceptably to most community allopathic programs. Some suffer (surgeons), others are fine (primary care).

 

[USMCMD]

Hi,

I am not far enough along in my military career to be able to answer all of your questions- but from my perspective as a 4th year (Army HPSP) there are a few key things you should know when choosing your HPSP branch...
...I don't normally respond to stuff, just lurk.... but I rotated with some really awesome AF candidates this summer who were insanely qualified for their specialty of choice and will probably not get their spot simply because the AF doesn't take as many people.... their odds would have been much better in the Army. But it depends on what you want to do, and for me the deciding factor was having no idea what I wanted to do!!! So I picked the Army bc it is the larger branch, with more specialty options, and so far I have been extremely satisfied with my choice. Hope that helps a little, and good luck!

All of this actually helps a lot! Thanks so much.

 

[asdf123g]

In general and excluding the ultra competitive fields, are there any specialties in the military that are harder than normal to match? I thought i read somewhere that EM for example is harder to land in the military. Anything easier?

 

[Unlucky Asian]

.

 

[WernickeDO]

All of this actually helps a lot! Thanks so much.

Usually it is my mission to convince pre-meds to NOT accept the HPSP, but you seem like an individual who is a good candidate for HPSP e.g. past military experience, already married, you love the military. That said, I still encourage you NOT to take the HPSP, and here is the reason why. As a former Marine, you are acquainted with the Suck, and I will not speak to you of it. However, there is a danger of a Suck that you are not familiar with, and that is the Suck of a GMO tour. As a Marine you have endured the hardships the military can put one through, but not the hardship of seeing scraped knees and scratchy throats while your colleagues are treating sepsis and doing spinal taps. While you are possibly repeating your internship your fellow med school grads will be completing residency and matching to fellowships. I can respect the desire to not incur debt but what if you decide that your specialty is a high paying one? Your med school debt can get paid off rapidly if you are disciplined, and meanwhile your MEDICAL career remains in your hands and not the .mil.

As a Marine you know firsthand why the military exists: to engage and kill the enemy, nothing more, nothing less. I respect your desire to do humanitarian missions but if that is what you want you are better off completing your residency and joining Doctors Without Borders, or some other smaller local task force for serving underserved populations. Hell, there will often be student loan forgiveness if you agree to serve an underserved location. I have done a "humanitarian" tour and let me assure you that I was not serving the local populace, I was serving Army assets and maintaining their fighting strength.

If you want to serve in the military as a doc, read the FAP sticky and consider other routes.

 

[Gastrapathy]

FAP is a myth. I only ever met one of these unicorns. I agree that he should be proud of his service and move on but that is not a reliable path into the .mil.

 

[backrow]

FAP is a myth. I only ever met one of these unicorns. I agree that he should be proud of his service and move on but that is not a reliable path into the .mil.

Add 2 that number for my experience. I think it's main use is in undermanned specialties.

 

[WernickeDO]

FAP is a myth. I only ever met one of these unicorns. I agree that he should be proud of his service and move on but that is not a reliable path into the .mil.

Fair enough. This is unfortunate because a lot can change between MS1 and graduation and FAP (in theory) is a good route to the military.

OP: Med school debt sucks, there's no two ways about it. But you will be in a position to pay it off rapidly. Concern over debt is NEVER a good reason to go HPSP.

 

[USMCMD]

Fair enough. This is unfortunate because a lot can change between MS1 and graduation and FAP (in theory) is a good route to the military.

OP: Med school debt sucks, there's no two ways about it. But you will be in a position to pay it off rapidly. Concern over debt is NEVER a good reason to go HPSP.

Wernicke, I hear you. I really do. If avoiding debt were the only reason I were considering the HPSP, I would be making a big mistake. It is not the only reason. There are many. I know the HPSP could land me in GMO land and I could hate my life for a few years. I'm willing to take the risk. I know most people go into this completely unaware of what it feels like to have your whole life controlled, and the way that can weigh on you for YEARS while you finish your time in the military. That said, I'm willing to move forward with the HPSP being fully aware of the risks. I know most are not aware.

I don't want to do FAP. I'd like to return to the topic of the original post. Can I hear from more people on the original questions?

Also, 8) Is the Army's new mandatory Brigade Surgeon tour as bad as they say (is it really a career-ender for people in procedural specialties)? What does it entail exactly? Does the Air Force do something similar?

 

[Mace1370]

My impression is that the AF is a lot more unpredictable than the army. I think the AF can definitively have higher upside -- you could be sent out to civilian land and do an awesome residency, then come back and practice in a major MTF for your whole career. The odds of that happening are low, but it is possible. I think the AF can also have a much larger downside -- being forced to do a GMO before you do your residency, not getting the residency you want right away/if at all, etc.

The army offers a much more middle of the road experience. Most get a residency right after medical school. Most get the residency they want. Most will have the Army disrupt their ideal career path in some way (forced to go to a small hospital for a tour, forced to deploy, etc).

I went with Army because I knew at the end of the day that even if I got screwed a little (or a lot), the Army would give me the best shot at matching to the specialty I wanted to do.

 

[Kilgoretrout 65]

A Marine not wanting Navy Medicine? Bad experience?
I am Air Force but am essentially an Army employee, probably the worst combination. I was USUHS so know
what a lot of my classmates have gone through. To me, most have gotten the residency they wanted.
It is true the Army trains almost everyone in house and the Air Force defers a good number. If you are looking
for a career you would want an active duty residency to count towards retirement. The quality of AD residencies varies specialty
to specialty and location to location. On average they are average.
From my perspective the Air Force is better early in your career (if you can avoid the GMO), the Army seems better later in your career as they still allow docs to see patients mixed in with the admin whereas 0-6 docs in the Air Force are often sent off to drudgery filled admin jobs. A lot of folks retire as 0-5, and both services seem like they let Lt Cols see patients nearly full time. Probably easier to make promotion in the Air Force. Also true - we are unlikely to say we made the wrong choice.

 

[USMCMD]

Thanks so much everybody. I have a lot to think about. I appreciate all the replies. It does seem like a lot of Military Med doctors are advising me to stay civilian.

USMCMD

 

[sonofva]

how many years are you in from prior service? the big specialties that i see going on military humanitarian medicine missions are ophthalmology and pediatrics. in fact i attended the "military humanitarian medical course," and it was pretty much all peds residents in there, fwiw