The great pharmacy saturation is here

[BMBiology]

So what are you going to do about it?

The tsunami is already hitting the new grads and soon, it will also sweep away the veterans. First, it will start with pharmacists who are > 50 years old then pharmacists in their 30s and 40s will be hit. Eventually, it will hit everyone.

Expect less pay raise, cut in benefits, and worse working conditions. Market force will dictate. Now is not the time to cruise and pray things will work out. You better have a plan. You better bring value or get out of this profession while you still can.

What is your plan?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[BMBiology]

I warned everybody about this 4-5 years when it wasn't so obvious. But now it is just a waste of time. The ones with options are not doing pharmacy. They know better. This is why pharmacy schools are getting more and more subpar students. Just look at the NAPLEX pass rate for the past few years.

And who cares about them? It is their lives. Let them make the decision.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[PAtoPharm]

.

 

[gwarm01]

For some of us who are planning on going to pharmacy school, we're hoping that our preference for living in semi-rural, generally undesirable areas (e.g., towns in the southeast w/ <300k pop.) will improve our chances of securing a job. Of course, if thousands of the graduates of the programs in California, NY, and other large cities are unable to find jobs in their "dream cities," isn't it inevitable that they will have no choice but to eventually move out to these undesirable areas (if they truly want a job badly enough)?

My concern would be that in the SE, these small towns of <300k are actually the largest cities in the state and usually the most desirable and saturated. When I think rural I'm envisioning towns of 10-20k people that might be two or three hours away from that small city.

 

[awval999]

My honest answer to this question is as follows (hospital pharmacist)---

1. Continue to accumulate seniority, moving jobs isn't worth an extra $5k/year when you go to the bottom of the totem poll. Typically when hospitals have a "reduction in force" they do it based solely on seniority. Last time I counted there are 10 pharmacists below me, and I only have 5 years seniority.
2. Get into a roll where you excel. I currently moved from a basic floor based hybrid pharmacist to the lead operations pharmacist. Less clinical, but more involved with management, more room to set myself apart.
3. PAY OFF THOSE STUDENT LOANS (I am on route to pay them off in 2018)
4. NO MCMANSION. My wife and I have committed to a 3/2 1500 sq ft house in a good neighborhood with good schools. Obviously this is in a lower COL metro area. Once the student loans are gone we will pay off the house. I will have a paid off house at the age of 40 (10 more years) per my Excel spreadsheets. After that we will be able to get by with unemployment, random PRN shifts, or even waiter/waitress tips.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Uh...I'm working at the pharmacy no other pharmacist in their right mind wants to work at?

It's not THAT bad yet.

 

[Dalteparin]

Work the shift nobody else wants to work (overnights) and read survivalist literature so that I can be ready to bolt for a homestead in BFE. (In real life I have a more practical exit strategy, but that's none of your business. )

PAtoPharm, I can't decide if your naivete is frightening or endearing. I feel like you haven't really listened to any of the advice more experienced posters have been giving you and as a result, you are in for a very rude awakening someday.

 

[Gombrich12]

If I can hold on another 10 years I'm fine, if something happens in the meantime I'll adapt pretty easily. I have low expenses, no student loans, and plenty in the bank.

 

[MatCauthon]

Employers compare compensation to make sure they are giving a 'market rate.' As wages stagnate this is bad for everyone.

 

[PAtoPharm]

.

 

[lcow2004]

Despite all the gloom, I would still say that pharmacy as a career choice overall is still very good. Relative to other fields, pharmacy still has low unemployment and still pretty much guarantees a very good salary for the relatively easy amount of work and low responsibility needed. True it is not like how it was 10 years ago but overall still a very good option.

 

[Lnsean]

Married to an MD. I'll be fine based on my spouse if the situation gets terrible.

Not my ideal plan.

Sent from my ONE A2005 using Tapatalk

Been reading the MD forums too...pretty bleak in there as well for a lot of the specialties.

 

[steveysmith54]

So what are you going to do about it?

The tsunami is already hitting the new grads and soon, it will also sweep away the veterans. First, it will start with pharmacists who are > 50 years old then pharmacists in their 30s and 40s will be hit. Eventually, it will hit everyone.

Expect less pay raise,

No plan for me. I've been an Rph for less than five years. I have maybe a year or so of funds in reserve, that's it. No students loans, but a mortgage. I need monthly income. I've studied for 8 years to do one craft, that's all that I know how to do.

 

[Shazzy1228]

Married to an MD. I'll be fine based on my spouse if the situation gets terrible.

Not my ideal plan.

Sent from my ONE A2005 using Tapatalk

.......I mean you're joking right?? Unless the spouse is a ROAD specialist, then no its not smooth sailing. I won't say anymore. I have a feeling I am becoming unpopular around here with my posts.

 

[wagrxm2000]

I would probably just retire.

 

[MountainPharmD]

My concern would be that in the SE, these small towns of <300k are actually the largest cities in the state and usually the most desirable and saturated. When I think rural I'm envisioning towns of 10-20k people that might be two or three hours away from that small city.

Less than 300k small? Rural? Not even close! I don't consider 10k to 20k to be small or rural. A small rural town is less then 5000 people.

 

[Dalteparin]

I'm listening all the time to what everyone has to say. When you say that it seems like I haven't listened to more experienced posters' advice, are you referring to the advice given to me regarding whether or not I'm actually cut-out to be a pharmacist, or regarding the pharmacist oversupply talk?

Both. (But to be fair, it seems that all pre-pharms are guilty of the latter.) I will say it again: I strongly encourage you to get some work or volunteer experience in a pharmacy before pharmacy school starts. Several posters, myself included, told you to do this before you applied, and despite the fact that you plowed ahead and applied anyway, you still have time to get in somewhere before school starts next fall. I do not think you have an accurate idea of what you are getting yourself into and this is going to cause major problems for you.

Also, I want to be clear that I'm not trying to pick on you. If pharmacy isn't a good fit for you, better you should learn that now than after you've invested 4 years of your life and are hundreds of thousands in debt.

 

[Momus]

Less than 300k small? Rural? Not even close! I don't consider 10k to 20k to be small or rural. A small rural town is less then 5000 people.

20k is small. It cesspool small, if you fu3k someone, the whole town will know.

You need at the very LEAST 100-200k to screw around and use Tinder.

 

[PAtoPharm]

.

 

[PAtoPharm]

.

 

[Momus]

I'll be OK as long as wage stays at least $1/min... Not like I need much to live. Any retail company in CA pays at least that much. If I am looking for a new job, companies will have to decide hiring experienced rphs vs. New grads, which one they will pick? I bet the former.

You might argue they like to replace talent with n00bs because they are cheaper, but in practice, the experienced applicant gets the job.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

20k is small. It cesspool small, if you fu3k someone, the whole town will know.

You need at the very LEAST 100-200k to screw around and use Tinder.

Nah. That's more like a town of 500.

 

[Shazzy1228]

No, I'm serious.

And I have no idea what a road specialist is.

Sent from my ONE A2005 using Tapatalk

Radiology
Anesthesiology
Ophthalmology
Dermatology
ROAD. These specialties have a reputation for better work/life balance.

 

[Shazzy1228]

I'll be OK as long as wage stays at least $1/min... Not like I need much to live. Any retail company in CA pays at least that much. If I am looking for a new job, companies will have to decide hiring experienced rphs vs. New grads, which one they will pick? I bet the former.

You might argue they like to replace talent with n00bs because they are cheaper, but in practice, the experienced applicant gets the job.

Do not kid yourself. You have to pay the experienced guy more money. Its saves you money by hiring more newbies and paying them less. Make the experienced guy train them. Oldest corporate trick in the book.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Of course...you have "older guys" that have money...if they tried to get rid of the day shift pharmacists at my store, I'd wager one of us would open a pharmacy across the street and try to get a small piece of that 5000 Rx/week the current store is getting. Just 10% of that store would be a decent start. That's the danger in them thinking they can just get rid of the veterans. They'll potentially take their clientele with them.

 

[Momus]

Of course...you have "older guys" that have money...if they tried to get rid of the day shift pharmacists at my store, I'd wager one of us would open a pharmacy across the street and try to get a small piece of that 5000 Rx/week the current store is getting. Just 10% of that store would be a decent start. That's the danger in them thinking they can just get rid of the veterans. They'll potentially take their clientele with them.

Happened to my friend. Not fired/let go, she got a green card, quit the next a couple month after and opened her own pharmacy right across the street. Stole 4k/week store business and then some.

 

[Humble Sloth]

Of course...you have "older guys" that have money...if they tried to get rid of the day shift pharmacists at my store, I'd wager one of us would open a pharmacy across the street and try to get a small piece of that 5000 Rx/week the current store is getting. Just 10% of that store would be a decent start. That's the danger in them thinking they can just get rid of the veterans. They'll potentially take their clientele with them.

That and age discrimination lawsuits are a ******. I have seen this play out at a corp. i worked at. They could only layoff the old people slowly and always with a few young bloods

 

[BidingMyTime]

Radiology
Anesthesiology
Ophthalmology
Dermatology
ROAD. These specialties have a reputation for better work/life balance.

hahaha, as the saying goes, it ain't 2006 anymore. Radiology is being outsourced over seas, very poor job prospects. Anesthesiology is being taken over by CRNA's, poor job prospects. Dermatology is on the cusp, given that NP's now have "derm fellowship" opportunities and will be cutting into their pie. Opthalmology has so far fought off the optomotrists, but it seems only a matter of time and they will be losing part of their pie as well.

While ROADS pays better than pharmacy, and has better work/life balance, their future job prospects are no better than pharmacists.

 

[UofK]

I'm just tring to find a job. I've got 30-35 more years of this bull****.

 

[Humble Sloth]

hahaha, as the saying goes, it ain't 2006 anymore. Radiology is being outsourced over seas, very poor job prospects. Anesthesiology is being taken over by CRNA's, poor job prospects. Dermatology is on the cusp, given that NP's now have "derm fellowship" opportunities and will be cutting into their pie. Opthalmology has so far fought off the optomotrists, but it seems only a matter of time and they will be losing part of their pie as well.

While ROADS pays better than pharmacy, and has better work/life balance, their future job prospects are no better than pharmacists.

Yeah I feel like NP's and PA's are starting to eat more of MD/DO's lunches everyday.

 

[gwarm01]

Less than 300k small? Rural? Not even close! I don't consider 10k to 20k to be small or rural. A small rural town is less then 5000 people.

Well that was my point. He is talking about "small" cities of 300k in the South being rural when 300k is actually pretty huge down here. I live in the largest city in my state and it's only 200k people.

 

[Dalteparin]

Ironically enough, I have an interview scheduled for next week that I have been practicing for, but I will see about getting a PT position as a pharmacy tech when I get back (or even volunteer). Just out of curiosity, what aspects of the pharmacist career do you foresee giving me trouble? I'm guessing it's the work pace and constant multitasking that's involved?

Yes, that's it. And unlike anesthesia, in pharmacy you'll constant multitasking plus patients and/or nurses demanding to know why you aren't finished yet.

 

[MountainPharmD]

Happened to my friend. Not fired/let go, she got a green card, quit the next a couple month after and opened her own pharmacy right across the street. Stole 4k/week store business and then some.

And this is how you win and beat the corporate machine. CVS, Walgreens and all the other corporate stores try very hard to build loyalty to the brand. They completely underestimate the loyalty people have to the pharmacist.

Smartest thing anyone can do right now is work at a corporate chain for a few years and learn how not to run a pharmacy. Work on building up relationships with people and then quit and open an independent across the street.

 

[Humble Sloth]

So what are you going to do about it?

The tsunami is already hitting the new grads and soon, it will also sweep away the veterans. First, it will start with pharmacists who are > 50 years old then pharmacists in their 30s and 40s will be hit. Eventually, it will hit everyone.

Expect less pay raise, cut in benefits, and worse working conditions. Market force will dictate. Now is not the time to cruise and pray things will work out. You better have a plan. You better bring value or get out of this profession while you still can.

What is your plan?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

I think it will be the worst 2020-2025. I think 40% unemployed new pharmD grads will be a reality. Already in 2016 a lot of new grads are lucky to find floating positions.

 

[sakigt]

Both. (But to be fair, it seems that all pre-pharms are guilty of the latter.) I will say it again: I strongly encourage you to get some work or volunteer experience in a pharmacy before pharmacy school starts. Several posters, myself included, told you to do this before you applied, and despite the fact that you plowed ahead and applied anyway, you still have time to get in somewhere before school starts next fall. I do not think you have an accurate idea of what you are getting yourself into and this is going to cause major problems for you.

Also, I want to be clear that I'm not trying to pick on you. If pharmacy isn't a good fit for you, better you should learn that now than after you've invested 4 years of your life and are hundreds of thousands in debt.

You might as well beat your head against a brick wall. Kids these days (and yes, Im still technically a millenial) have overvalued degrees/educations/volunteer/clubs so much and their parents valued rest and relaxation so much that they have no soft people skills. Not everyone, mind you, but a lot. I remember in Pharmacy school being told to quit my PRN hospital gig job, but guess who didnt have to do a residency to get a sweet clinical PT with benefits job? Guess who has a pension because Ive been working at the same place for 15 years next year because I started in the basement scanning documents listening to NPR? Before that I scanned groceries and dealt with ****ty people and learned when to let it go and when to push back and be nice about it. Kids dont need an extra two hours a day to post on instafacechat, they need to go work a minimum wage job where you learn to be a professional adult. Do some work. Get a job. Then, even when the field is saturated and you have to slave 12 hour days in retail for less than you expected with student loans out your ears paying interest you cant deduct at least youll be happy.

My poor kids are soooo screwed. Im going to be that hella unfair parent.

 

[Pharmd = Phake Doctor]

You might as well beat your head against a brick wall. Kids these days (and yes, Im still technically a millenial) have overvalued degrees/educations/volunteer/clubs so much and their parents valued rest and relaxation so much that they have no soft people skills. Not everyone, mind you, but a lot. I remember in Pharmacy school being told to quit my PRN hospital gig job, but guess who didnt have to do a residency to get a sweet clinical PT with benefits job? Guess who has a pension because Ive been working at the same place for 15 years next year because I started in the basement scanning documents listening to NPR? Before that I scanned groceries and dealt with ****ty people and learned when to let it go and when to push back and be nice about it. Kids dont need an extra two hours a day to post on instafacechat, they need to go work a minimum wage job where you learn to be a professional adult. Do some work. Get a job. Then, even when the field is saturated and you have to slave 12 hour days in retail for less than you expected with student loans out your ears paying interest you cant deduct at least youll be happy.

My poor kids are soooo screwed. Im going to be that hella unfair parent.

I went to the pre-pharmacy club meeting at the local community college and found out that the pre-pharmacy club president has never worked a single day at a pharmacy. I told her to get a tech job. She told me that she didn't need a job because she had "leadership experience." Plus she got a 20% on the PCAT. What the hell is wrong with pre-pharmers these days?

 

[PAtoPharm]

.

 

[gwarm01]

I went to the pre-pharmacy club meeting at the local community college and found out that the pre-pharmacy club president has never worked a single day at a pharmacy.

Sounds like future APHA president material! Or at the very least it should get their foot in the door to become a professor.

How does someone get a 20% on the PCAT?

One of my classmates in pharmacy school admitted to scoring around a 30%. I have no idea how it happens. They still got into pharmacy school, and this was 7 years ago. I guess today you can get in as long as you signed your name on the test with minimal typos.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Sounds like future APHA president material! Or at the very least it should get their foot in the door to become a professor.


One of my classmates in pharmacy school admitted to scoring around a 30%. I have no idea how it happens. They still got into pharmacy school, and this was 7 years ago. I guess today you can get in as long as you signed your name on the test with minimal typos.

Apparently, the people who score that low must not be studying at all. That's probably what I would have made if I hadn't reviewed any chemistry or biology before taking the test.

 

[Judgment Dragon]

I know a person who graduated from UOP in June 2015. He worked for 7 months as a floater pharmacist, then has been unemployed ever since.

 

[N974]

Meanwhile in our town of 400k with amazing, as in world class, outdoor activities, the open shift for large retail email is pages long. Every glass door email has multiple positions open they can't fill, retail, VA, with some hospital positions dropped in there.

Yes, you may have to move away from the park where you first made it to second base. If you're limiting your geographic area, you are limiting your life, your career, your perspective, and your ability to be anything close to interesting.

 

[nownoni]

Meanwhile in our town of 400k with amazing, as in world class, outdoor activities, the open shift for large retail email is pages long. Every glass door email has multiple positions open they can't fill, retail, VA, with some hospital positions dropped in there.

Yes, you may have to move away from the park where you first made it to second base. If you're limiting your geographic area, you are limiting your life, your career, your perspective, and your ability to be anything close to interesting.

Do mind sharing where this is at? Thank you

 

[gwarm01]

Do mind sharing where this is at? Thank you

Hah, I was thinking the same thing.

 

[Lnsean]

stop feeding the trolls

 

[qwerty89]

hahaha, as the saying goes, it ain't 2006 anymore. Radiology is being outsourced over seas, very poor job prospects. Anesthesiology is being taken over by CRNA's, poor job prospects. Dermatology is on the cusp, given that NP's now have "derm fellowship" opportunities and will be cutting into their pie. Opthalmology has so far fought off the optomotrists, but it seems only a matter of time and they will be losing part of their pie as well.

While ROADS pays better than pharmacy, and has better work/life balance, their future job prospects are no better than pharmacists.

Good lord this is wrong. As a current resident, Radiology isn't going anywhere. Job market has improved considerably (still not great, but not as bad as it was) and salaries havn't really changed much. As an example, a few years ago the ACR jobs board had 180 listings, now its at 400+ consistently. Not to mention radiology has zero midlevel issues. And for the last time no jobs are going overseas. In fact Radiology is booming in India and they have plenty of their own damn business.

Anesthesia isn't being taken over by CRNAs either.

Derm will continue to be great for years to come.

Optho will not be losing to optometrists.

Pharmacy is in its own special world of hurt. A saving grace is that a huge number of your graduates are females who prefer to work part-time. Therefore you need relatively more graduates to have a given number of full time equivalents.

 

[Rukn]

Good lord this is wrong. As a current resident, Radiology isn't going anywhere. Job market has improved considerably (still not great, but not as bad as it was) and salaries havn't really changed much. As an example, a few years ago the ACR jobs board had 180 listings, now its at 400+ consistently. Not to mention radiology has zero midlevel issues. And for the last time no jobs are going overseas. In fact Radiology is booming in India and they have plenty of their own damn business.

Anesthesia isn't being taken over by CRNAs either.

Derm will continue to be great for years to come.

Optho will not be losing to optometrists.

Pharmacy is in its own special world of hurt. A saving grace is that a huge number of your graduates are females who prefer to work part-time. Therefore you need relatively more graduates to have a given number of full time equivalents.

I have to agree

This is really because pharmacist don't really have much value.


Unless they shut down these schools and unless reimbursement goes back up things won't change. I mean people with 2.5 GPAs and 30 PCAT are getting accepted. For derm and rads you really need excellent USMLE scores.

Is there any comparison between the USMLE and the NAPLEX/MPJE/CPJE?

 

[Schwimmy]

Meanwhile in our town of 400k with amazing, as in world class, outdoor activities, the open shift for large retail email is pages long. Every glass door email has multiple positions open they can't fill, retail, VA, with some hospital positions dropped in there.

Yes, you may have to move away from the park where you first made it to second base. If you're limiting your geographic area, you are limiting your life, your career, your perspective, and your ability to be anything close to interesting.

I would like to know where this is also. I've been very vocal to companies that I'm willing to relocate, but nobody is interested unless I already have a license in their state...

 

[fewaopi]

This isn't just pharmacy but nationwide in many career paths. The college bubble itself is beginning to burst and many college grads outside of pharmacy are facing tougher job prospects, higher student loans, higher COL (or more ways to spend) and a lower chance of ever seeing social security. Not too mention technology advances can dramatically change the labor force/market. No one can predict technology advances or Uber, or Internet, etc many years ago, you just couldn't imagine. I think pace of change is so rapid, I expect jobs to be less stable and employers to offer less benefits in return.

No one can really predict EXACTLY what's going to happen but the pharmacy job saturation wasn't really hard to predict but rather obvious. More schools, more grads, less job growth, it was hard to imagine how pharmacy COULDN'T be saturated. Similar with nursing and even dentistry and some physicians now. People live longer, work longer, have less kids or none. The trend in pharmacy can be extrapolated to millions of kids.

I can't exactly fault these kids, I mean what exactly are they SUPPOSED to do? Everybody is pushed into college and it's hard to skip college and strike on your own, it's more risky and uncertain. We offer suggestions but those alternatives aren't exactly great either (no stoichiometrist, computers isn't as easy as you say it is...not that you're wrong either...) Suffice to say, it SUCKS in many ways to be born in these times. But it does rock in other ways. And we put kids down for what are really ****ty job prospects/pay/working conditions that make paying down loans and having a basic, poor lifestyle even, difficult. A lot of times, it's just the time you're born into. Graduating in class of 2009 is a lot different than graduating in class of 2013 for lifetime earnings, career, mental health, etc. I don't expect it to look good for many future college grads.

I expect delayed marriages, less, delayed, or no kids, and downsizing and of course less consumer spending. Don't forget inequality is widening and money just isn't moving around as it can be if most people have their neck just above the water. Or I expect more borrowing, people borrow money for furniture, FURNITURE!

My plan has already been saving, investing, and keeping my lifestyle costs low but enough that I'm still happy and satisfied. Eventually, I'll reach a state where I don't give a crap what happens as my boat will be sturdy and weather whatever storms blow. And if a storm is so strong it sinks my boat (apocalypse, nuclear war, end of humanity), then meh everyone sinked and the shotgun-canned goods portfolio becomes a much better investment.

 

[N974]

I would like to know where this is also. I've been very vocal to companies that I'm willing to relocate, but nobody is interested unless I already have a license in their state...

Then you get a license in that state....or a couple states. My wife has 3 state licenses, one of them California (we don't live in Cali). That is what separates you from the flock, the above and beyond, the get up and go. You walk into a Wags in Sacramento or Chico with a license, ask for the DMs number, and you'll have a job.

I have little reason to specifically expose my specific area. There's enough hints out there, enough tools. Another 3 job openings this morning posted at two clinics I never heard of. The shortage in my area is good for our family and our wages.

The driven pharmacists will figure it out, they always find the jobs, they don't stop until they are at Kaiser or equivalent. That path creates self worth. If CVS craps on them they leave and move onto something else, because they can. They have the experience and the licenses to do so. If they are in retail, they DON'T STOP scratching for per diem work in a hospital or managed care. It may take 3 years, but they DON'T STOP.

They are scrappy, they are interesting, and they are the ones holding the line on wages.

 

[bacillus1]

I would like to know where this is also. I've been very vocal to companies that I'm willing to relocate, but nobody is interested unless I already have a license in their state...

If you have a PGY1, I know of a job in a great location in NorCal that's been open since February, no CA license required, no weekends required. It's basically a prior auth job, but better than being unemployed.