The Nature of Prestige in Medicine

[LIDO]

Wow.....all of you seem totally crazy.

I can say a few things and maybe I will sound crazy too.

I am at the point of deciding to go into either dentistry or medicine. I apply within months. My gpa is a 3.94 overall and 3.96 science. I am not concerned about the level of intelligence required in either field. You will always have a**hole stupid md's and you will always have a**hole stupid dentist.

After shadowing for roughly 500 hours and being with a family that has roughly 10 mds and 4 dentist I can relay a few opinions.

Overall, most everybody has mentioned that they would most likely not do medicine if they knew what it was truly was like. Most agree that they would have given dentistry a good look.

Not to say that the doctors are not happy. Prob. 1 out of 5 doctors enjoys the career.....but still stated to me that they would have looked into other fields. This is difficult for you all to swallow and comprehend. None of us (most of us) have not practiced as MD's or DDS's.

I can say that almost every dentist has been very happy with the career. Enjoys the surplus free time to gain relief and extend into other passions.

Money wise......I firmly think dentistry is a better choice if that is your objective. Despite the fact that most will not admit such. Realize that when you guys look at "nation average" salary reports that these reports do not include the majority of private practice dentistry salary. These people (privately owned) do not need to report the income / it is not regulated the same way as medicine.

My good friends sister and brother-in-law both graduated d-school two years ago. They have a brand new office, a reasonably new car, just bought a house in one of the best areas and had a baby four months ago. They each work about 35ish hours a week. They have nice things, take trips, and most important they are able to spend time with their baby.

Prestige....hmmm.....people need to get off the high horse. For instance, an above post noted how EP doc's save lives and will deal with smelly anus about .1 percent of the time. Have you shadowed for over 100 hours or now an EP? Most of my shadowing in the ER dealt with drunk men, smelly bums, strange fungus type rashes and such. You will deal with plenty of sh*tty things.

Yesterday my friends sister had a woman finish her dental work in her office. She was told by a co-worker that her breath was bad and her teeth rotten. The lady had every tooth extracted and replaced. Yesterday she finished the work, looked into a mirror and began crying. She continued by hugging the dentist. So dentistry is more than scraping teeth. It is restoring a part of a person life.

Also, to the a**whipe above who insulted oral surgeons by saying they rarely encounter meaningful work. How about the oral surgeon that helps give a patient suffering from oral cancer a FACE? The boy who lost his jaw when after being in a car accident his face splattered against the window and then the oral surgeon who helped reconstruct that face?

Of course I think medicine is amazing. You can do amazing things with medicine but you can also do amazing things in dentistry, just in a different fashion.

So before you sh*it on dentistry think it over....for a second. Dentist have options. They can do general works and constantly educate themselves evolving their office. They finish school early and can enjoy their life/family while brightening others. Medicine is a field in which you must give your entire being. Realize you will be spat on as a resident. You will be treated like slave labor for the most of your life. Right now all is fine and dandy. You are young and ambitious; but when you are 45, missed your childs life, working 60 hours, on the verge of a heart attack......I doubt you will degrade dentistry. They will be working 35 hours, enjoying the family they have built, living out other passions and not doubting life.

I by no means wrote this to persuade a single person. If you truly are passionate for medicine and you are willing to give your life.....then this is all meaningless and it should be. Yet I am inclined to believe after reading hundreds of pre-allo threads that this is the majority of you. For this bulk of the population I urge that you re-evaluate and learn to appreciate other fields that may not only satisfy your thirst of knowledge but also give you freedom to grow into the other passions of life.


With this ....... stop making pre-anythings look like crap.

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[unsung]

Sorry, #6 goes to veterinary medicine

Yep. And the 2nd toughest (lowest admit %) would be clinical psychology. I learned this from my advisor. (And also from experience!)

 

[RokChalkJayhawk]

Another profession that deserves some serious respect is EMT. Sorry guys, but if my life is on the line, I want an EMT on my side.

Hah- I was an EMT and I am going to be a physician.

Believe me I'd much rather have an emergency physisican/trauma surgeon on my side. Not saying EMTs are bad, but it took me approx. 160 hours of training to get an EMT-B cert.

 

[RokChalkJayhawk]

I would say being a nuclear physicist is likely more "prestigious" than being a M.D.

Case in point: academia is FAR more "prestigious" than medical school.

Things that are COMMON simply can't be THAT prestigious. Otoh, try telling people "I'm a nuclear physicist and I work for NASA"... not the same ballpark, guys.

In short, this whole discussion about going into medicine for the "prestige" is terribly short-sighted.

Ok- just a bad argument because there are so many ways I could poke holes in it until it sinks.

First off, not too many people apply to physics programs.... I mean how popular is the physics department at your school? Are they bolting their doors to prevent people from getting in? Don't lie now.

And working at NASA is not really that great of a job (recent reports indicate how difficult it is to recruit/retain people/secure funding), and there are a TON of physicists/engineers who work at places like Northrup Grumman/Boeing/Lockheed/NASA, etc. There probably aren't too many physicists where you are simply because there isn't a company like Boeing in your town. Just about everyone needs to see a doctor in their lifetime, hence, there are lots of doctors. Wowza. Demand is met by supply (at least in Southern Caifornia)

Third - you chose essentially the cream of the crop for physics. I will counter with mine:

"Hello my name is Herbie Hancock and I am the Chief of Staff at the Mayo Clinic. (Or the most highly regarded hospital in your opinion)" I'm pretty sure that such a statement would command someone's respect.

This isn't to say that nuclear physicists don't get respect, but it's not exactly the "King/Queen" of professions either because there is a small number of them. Watch "Dirty Jobs" with Mike Rowe. There probably aren't too many people doing a few of those jobs. I guess I'm suggesting you develop your criteria for prestige a little more carefully.

I know your logical argument is Einstein, but I am pre-emptively countering with Salk.

I'm sure we could go all day with this, but this is my first and last post on the matter.



And by the way- it is simply not possible for you to have not considered prestige in choosing medicine. It is a part of American culture to associate being a physician with prestige. If you are from another culture that devalues physicians it is possible, but not in the good ole US of A. It's ironic that:

"This is the ''stupidest'' thing ever said on sdn." Posted by arsenewenger,

was actually in fact possibly the stupidest thing ever posted on SDN.

 

[notdeadyet]

Believe me I'd much rather have an emergency physisican/trauma surgeon on my side. Not saying EMTs are bad, but it took me approx. 160 hours of training to get an EMT-B cert.

No doubt. EMT is essentially advanced first aid, in my book. If I'm bleeding in the street, I'll take a paramedic who can at least give me drugs.

Don't know if it's changed or if it varies by state, but EMTs in California in my day couldn't even start IVs or intubate. No hate for EMTs on my end (used to be one) but I'd keep it in perspective.

 

[jochi1543]

Yesterday my friends sister had a woman finish her dental work in her office. She was told by a co-worker that her breath was bad and her teeth rotten.

I'd just go shoot the coworker, but that's me.

 

[Old ortho]

You go to business if you main purpose is to make a lot of money. You go to law if you main purpose to make money and screw people. You go to dentistry if your main purpose is to make money and help people. You go to medicine if you main purpose is to help people, have a great passion for medical sciences, and money is secondary to you. I have a lot of respect for medical professionals such as physicians and nurses. I think they are underpaid for the great services they provide to sick patients. But for the effort and money a medical student put in, and then look at the pay per hour he/she will make in 10 years, medicine probably is not best investment if you analyse it in a purely financial standpoint, just like a judge may not make as much money as a high power attorney in private practice. But the society respects physicians more than businessmen, and also respects judges more than attorneys in private practice.

I am a dental specialist in orthodontics. Like most of my colleagues, I work four weekdays per week and less than 35 hours per week. I make only an average income in my profession but I am very happy and thankful with what I have. I can make a little more if I work an extra one or two days, but like most dentists, we rather use the extra time to spend with our family or hobbies. According to the last survey that just came out, general dentists (family practice) who own their practice make an average of $175,000 per year, which is very close to primary care physicians' salary. The top earning dental specialists (oral surgeons, endodontists, orthodontists) make a little over $300,000 annually, which is probably very close to a competitive medical specialty (cardiology, orthopedics, opthalmology). If you divide the pay by the hours, dentists probably makes a little more per hour since the average working hours per week for dentists is 35, and for physicians it can be between 40-60 hours per week - and they work more evenings and weekends. Dentists also face less malpractice lawsuits than physicians. On the other hand, the medical profession is more prestigious than other health professions including dentistry, and deservedly so.

I believe that physicians are underpaid today for their training and hours. But things were different in the 70's and 80's, when some doctors make over $0.5 million or even $1 million annually. Doctor's earnings actually may have dropped in the last two decades during to aggressive fee cutting imposed by Medicare, HMO's, PPO's and managed care. The trend in managed care is also affecting dentistry, podiatry, and optometry, although may be not as severe as medicine. That is why plastic surgery and orthodontics are relatively more lucrative because HMO's don't cover for these services and patients need to pay for the most part. The downside to be in a lucrative profession is that there is more and more intense competition every year from other practitioners because they want a piece of the pie. Today more general dentists are performing orthodontics without training because they want to make $. And I bet there are MD's out there doing laser and plastic surgery without much training due to $ factor too.

My advice is pick the profession based on what is more important to you: money, prestige, live style etc.

 

[runfast520]

so how much prestige do you pre-meds give engineers/physics who design the new instruments being used in hospitals, lets take away the MRI for example (not that I know who designed it)

I once saw a doctor show that had the physician giving a man a device so that he could speak, the old man said vile things and the daughter went to ask him to take the device away, upon arriving the physician acted like he was god, all he did was order the device and open the box

I do believe medicine is the most presitgious, but sometimes doctors take this to fault
I think dentistry should be part of med school, subtract all the lab work we do in dental school (which I know doesn't sound tough, but as someone that does better in our science courses taking with our medical colleagues, making dentures was tougher for me than gross anatomy, and we did total body with med) and then do a paid 2 year dental residency.

FYI- while physicians are required to do a residency, training doesn't stop there for physicians, or for an engineer when he/she graduates, you are always learning

 

[MDizzy]

I would say being a nuclear physicist is likely more "prestigious" than being a M.D.

How many people could HANDLE (i.e. have the ability) being a physicist? How many people graduate with Ph.D.s in physics each year? (Physics is just a somewhat arbitrary example. Insert your favorite academic discipline. Let's say... Egyptology.)

How many students graduate from medical school each year? What % of pre-med applicants get into A medical school each year? (1 in 3!)

Case in point: academia is FAR more "prestigious" than medical school. For the first two years of medical school, a lot of med students don't even bother attending the courses, and simply sit home and read the textbook. Try doing that through the 1st two years of a PhD program in mathematics. Or law school for that matter! It's no secret that law school courses often provide far more value for the law school student, in that the classroom interactions between professor and student is often a lot more involved. That is, the law school student is honing his/her reasoning ability in class in a way that goes beyond the facts in their assigned texts. Medical school is more about memorization.

I'm a pre-med... but I really don't think medicine is THAT prestigious really. To the average joe, sure, being a doctor sounds like a great thing. But ask practically ANYONE, and s/he will likely know a relative or a friend or a friend's relative (etc.) who is a doctor.

Things that are COMMON simply can't be THAT prestigious. Otoh, try telling people "I'm a nuclear physicist and I work for NASA"... not the same ballpark, guys.

In short, this whole discussion about going into medicine for the "prestige" is terribly short-sighted.

1) If you tell anyone you are a PhD in Egyptology, odds are the other person will start to feel sorry for you.

2) 1 in 3 applicants get into med school. Easily 10x that amount started college as pre-meds (like yourself). They drop like flies after freshman chemistry, organic chemistry, if their gpa is below ~3.5, mcat below ~25, they do not do any EC's, shadowing, research etc.
The numbers of applicants you see to medicine have been filtered and screened by the entire process from the beginning. Only the best of the best even follow through. The rest who changed their majors from pre-med go into dental, pharmacy, optometry, podiatry, and chiro. It's common knowledge that medicine is the "first choice" of the pre-health fields for the majority of pre-health people. Therefore, it selects for the top tier of applicants.

Your comments demonstrate that you know very little of the process of getting into medical school. Most likely you are either a freshman in college or still in high school.

 

[MDizzy]

Yep. And the 2nd toughest (lowest admit %) would be clinical psychology. I learned this from my advisor. (And also from experience!)

So...is Drexel medical school better than harvard medical school because it has a lower admit percentage?

Use common sense. The best applicants are gunning for medical school, not vet, not dent, or any other pre-health field.

 

[Eric Lindros]

So before you sh*it on dentistry think it over....for a second. Dentist have options. They can do general works and constantly educate themselves evolving their office. They finish school early and can enjoy their life/family while brightening others. Medicine is a field in which you must give your entire being. Realize you will be spat on as a resident. You will be treated like slave labor for the most of your life. Right now all is fine and dandy. You are young and ambitious; but when you are 45, missed your childs life, working 60 hours, on the verge of a heart attack......I doubt you will degrade dentistry. They will be working 35 hours, enjoying the family they have built, living out other passions and not doubting life.

I by no means wrote this to persuade a single person. If you truly are passionate for medicine and you are willing to give your life.....then this is all meaningless and it should be. Yet I am inclined to believe after reading hundreds of pre-allo threads that this is the majority of you. For this bulk of the population I urge that you re-evaluate and learn to appreciate other fields that may not only satisfy your thirst of knowledge but also give you freedom to grow into the other passions of life.


With this ....... stop making pre-anythings look like crap.

You have no idea what you are talking about

 

[Eric Lindros]

this thread is getting silly, per usual

 

[Eric Lindros]

Also, to the a**whipe above who insulted oral surgeons by saying they rarely encounter meaningful work. How about the oral surgeon that helps give a patient suffering from oral cancer a FACE? The boy who lost his jaw when after being in a car accident his face splattered against the window and then the oral surgeon who helped reconstruct that face?

ok.

 

[cyrille104]

So...is Drexel medical school better than harvard medical school because it has a lower admit percentage?

Use common sense. The best applicants are gunning for medical school, not vet, not dent, or any other pre-health field.

Vet school has higher accepted applicant stats on average than accepted med school applicants. I don't understand your logic.

 

[Ollie123]

So...is Drexel medical school better than harvard medical school because it has a lower admit percentage?

Use common sense. The best applicants are gunning for medical school, not vet, not dent, or any other pre-health field.

Just feel the need to point this out since I know numerous pre-meds who seem to feel this way. There are lots of reasons not to go into medicine aside from not being able to get in. Ask some of the med students and residents I work with

I thought about med school for awhile. With my stats, LORs, etc. its very likely I'd have gotten into a competitive med school if I wanted to. I chose to go for a PhD instead because right now my focus is research, and an MD wasn't needed for the kind of research I want to do. Maybe some day I will go back for an MD, but for now it would involve a whole lot of training that is largely irrelevant to my current career goals so it wasn't my best option. That doesn't make me any lower quality of an applicant than plenty of people who apply and are accepted to med school each year.

 

[Winter]

I understand that, but why? What is it about prestige that makes you need it in your profession?

I think that people want prestige in their profession because...it makes them feel good! Isn't nice to wake up in the morning and think to yourself: "I can't wait to get dressed and get to my *prestigous* job!!! (big smile with tooth sparkle here)" j/k

I mean, prestigeous jobs usually have exciting, fast paced environments. I for one like the idea of being a doctor because the profession is very dynamic. You're constantly in the process of learning new things as they arise, you are forced to deal with diverse situations, being a doctor is really very exciting.

I don't think much about prestige. I mean, I won't lie, it has crossed my mind and I am looking forward to being able to work in a position where people will treat me with respect, but the main reason I want to become a doctor, pediatrican actually, is because I really really hate to see a sick kid. And I want to be able to do more than give em chicken soup and crackers.

I think the prestige thing has do with wanting people to treat you nice. Think about it. People treat doctors differently from janitors, or say mechanics, right? I know that a lot of people can be condescending or even downright rude to fast food workers or deli workers.

People don't want to be treated like that. But seriously prestige (and money) shouldn't be the only reason behind wanting to pursue a career in medicine.

 

[RokChalkJayhawk]

No doubt. EMT is essentially advanced first aid, in my book. If I'm bleeding in the street, I'll take a paramedic who can at least give me drugs.

Don't know if it's changed or if it varies by state, but EMTs in California in my day couldn't even start IVs or intubate. No hate for EMTs on my end (used to be one) but I'd keep it in perspective.

It remains the same. You can't do either. I felt like a glorified taxi cab driver, because I essentially ran back to the ambulance to grab stuff while on scene, and was responsible for cleaning the rig before/after. Driving to the scene with the lights/siren was pretty cool, and I opposed traffic on some pretty busy streets a few times, which is definitely a rush.

I did some CPR a few times, but apparently it didn't help.

 

[RokChalkJayhawk]

Vet school has higher accepted applicant stats on average than accepted med school applicants.

Really? Since they don't take the MCAT, and pre-meds don't take what ever vet students take, I figured it would be difficult to compare. Maybe based on GPA alone but I had a hard time finding the average GPA for accepted vet students in a recent year.

 

[cyrille104]

Really? Since they don't take the MCAT, and pre-meds don't take what ever vet students take, I figured it would be difficult to compare. Maybe based on GPA alone but I had a hard time finding the average GPA for accepted vet students in a recent year.

Well actually, pre-vets have the same pre-reqs as pre-meds with a few additions depending on the school, like biochem, microbio, public speaking, or stats (although I don't know, some med schools might require these), or on rare occasions things like animal breeding. The information for GPA is available at www.aavmc.org for vet students and www.aamc.org for med students. Looking at the reports, actually vet student GPAs are slightly lower...but they are pretty much even across the board (they do it by each school), requiring somewhere around a 3.55-3.6 to get in anywhere, which is what makes it so difficult for the average applicant.

 

[MDizzy]

Well actually, pre-vets have the same pre-reqs as pre-meds with a few additions depending on the school, like biochem, microbio, public speaking, or stats (although I don't know, some med schools might require these), or on rare occasions things like animal breeding. The information for GPA is available at www.aavmc.org for vet students and www.aamc.org for med students. Looking at the reports, actually vet student GPAs are slightly lower...but they are pretty much even across the board (they do it by each school), requiring somewhere around a 3.55-3.6 to get in anywhere, which is what makes it so difficult for the average applicant.

Another myth officially debunked...AND only 6 vet schools even accept MCAT scores (even then those same 6 schools will also accept the GRE). I'm willing to bet most pre-vets take the GRE instead of the mcat since all vet schools accept the GRE.

 

[LIDO]

ok.

You have no idea what you are talking about

Glad to see your the only one who disagrees. This has nothing to do with what I am talking about....I think you should read the first post to find out how many MD's and DDS's in one family have given such opinion. This on top of countless discussion with well over 50 "outside" doctors.

Denial is the 1st step

 

[kdburton]

I think that people want prestige in their profession because...it makes them feel good! Isn't nice to wake up in the morning and think to yourself: "I can't wait to get dressed and get to my *prestigous* job!!! (big smile with tooth sparkle here)" j/k

I mean, prestigeous jobs usually have exciting, fast paced environments. I for one like the idea of being a doctor because the profession is very dynamic. You're constantly in the process of learning new things as they arise, you are forced to deal with diverse situations, being a doctor is really very exciting.

I don't think much about prestige. I mean, I won't lie, it has crossed my mind and I am looking forward to being able to work in a position where people will treat me with respect, but the main reason I want to become a doctor, pediatrican actually, is because I really really hate to see a sick kid. And I want to be able to do more than give em chicken soup and crackers.

I think the prestige thing has do with wanting people to treat you nice. Think about it. People treat doctors differently from janitors, or say mechanics, right? I know that a lot of people can be condescending or even downright rude to fast food workers or deli workers.

People don't want to be treated like that. But seriously prestige (and money) shouldn't be the only reason behind wanting to pursue a career in medicine.

LOL if you really really hate to see sick kids then you probably shouldn't be a pediatrician

 

[cyrille104]

Another myth officially debunked...AND only 6 vet schools even accept MCAT scores (even then those same 6 schools will also accept the GRE). I'm willing to bet most pre-vets take the GRE instead of the mcat since all vet schools accept the GRE.

We do take the GRE because the MCAT gives you no advantage. We used to have to take the VCAT, but it was discontinued in 2003 (in my opinion due to high cost and low # of test-takers). Still, they expect an average of 1500+ experience hours, which is a lot more than the 50-here-50-there experience hours that I've seen on this board. I like that better, though, as spending my summer doing research was a lot more interesting than studying for the MCAT I'm sure.

It's still harder to get into vet school, though, because there are so few, and if you have less than 1000 hours in your application and <3.9, it's really tough. There are really no "easier" schools to get into, like there are with med school, and the fact that they're almost all legally obligated towards applicants from their own state makes it that much harder (especially for the people from the 25 states that don't have vet schools). For example, there were 1500 out-of-state applicants to Penn this year for only ~50 seats (the rest of the class of 110 comes from the 250-person in-state applicant pool).

Someone asked if Drexel was better than Harvard because their acceptance rate is lower. Obviously, the answer is no, but I'm not saying that vet med is any better or worse than human medicine. Also, there is a different quality of applicants applying to Drexel than Harvard, whereas applicants to vet med are probably about the same quality (even though there are fewer) than applicants to human med. It is tough to compare, though, because all but 1 school take at least half of their class from in-state pools, and a lot take 75% or more.

 

[oldbearprofessor]

I really really hate to see a sick kid. And I want to be able to do more than give em chicken soup and crackers.

Chest. 2000 Oct;118(4):1150-7.


Chicken soup inhibits neutrophil chemotaxis in vitro.

Rennard BO, Ertl RF, Gossman GL, Robbins RA, Rennard SI.

Pulmonary and Critical Care Medicine Section, Nebraska Medical Center, Omaha, NE, USA.

Chicken soup has long been regarded as a remedy for symptomatic upper respiratory tract infections. As it is likely that the clinical similarity of the diverse infectious processes that can result in "colds" is due to a shared inflammatory response, an effect of chicken soup in mitigating inflammation could account for its attested benefits. To evaluate this, a traditional chicken soup was tested for its ability to inhibit neutrophil migration using the standard Boyden blindwell chemotaxis chamber assay with zymosan-activated serum and fMet-Leu-Phe as chemoattractants. Chicken soup significantly inhibited neutrophil migration and did so in a concentration-dependent manner. The activity was present in a nonparticulate component of the chicken soup. All of the vegetables present in the soup and the chicken individually had inhibitory activity, although only the chicken lacked cytotoxic activity. Interestingly, the complete soup also lacked cytotoxic activity. Commercial soups varied greatly in their inhibitory activity. The present study, therefore, suggests that chicken soup may contain a number of substances with beneficial medicinal activity. A mild anti-inflammatory effect could be one mechanism by which the soup could result in the mitigation of symptomatic upper respiratory tract infections.

 

[Tired]

Chest. 2000 Oct;118(4):1150-7.
Chicken soup inhibits neutrophil chemotaxis in vitro.
Rennard BO, Ertl RF, Gossman GL, Robbins RA, Rennard SI.
Pulmonary and Critical Care Medicine Section, Nebraska Medical Center, Omaha, NE, USA.

One more crappy in vitro study that proves absolutely nothing.

Go Alternative Medicine!

 

[unsung]

1) If you tell anyone you are a PhD in Egyptology, odds are the other person will start to feel sorry for you.

2) 1 in 3 applicants get into med school. Easily 10x that amount started college as pre-meds (like yourself). They drop like flies after freshman chemistry, organic chemistry, if their gpa is below ~3.5, mcat below ~25, they do not do any EC's, shadowing, research etc.
The numbers of applicants you see to medicine have been filtered and screened by the entire process from the beginning. Only the best of the best even follow through. The rest who changed their majors from pre-med go into dental, pharmacy, optometry, podiatry, and chiro. It's common knowledge that medicine is the "first choice" of the pre-health fields for the majority of pre-health people. Therefore, it selects for the top tier of applicants.

<b>Your comments demonstrate that you know very little of the process of getting into medical school. Most likely you are either a freshman in college or still in high school.</b>

Riiiight. Because I don't consider medicine the most "prestigious" profession in the world, I must be a freshman in college or a high school student.

(If I don't consider apples the most delicious fruit in the world, I must love oranges? It does not take a genius to see that something is missing in this argument... that something would be logic.)

I have already gone through organic chemistry and graduated from college as well as graduate school, thank you very much. It's hardly a secret that many pre-meds get rude awakenings their very first year in college. And... I still fail to see your point. For the truly dedicated, a 1 in 3 acceptance rate is hardly discouraging.

Pursuing medicine is *popular*, and demand is high, so that makes the field competitive. Personally, I do not equate supply/demand with prestige.

Another poster made the point that not many people WANT to be nuclear physicists, such that rarity does not necessarily indicate prestige.

Again supply/demand is being equated with prestige. As a matter of fact, I am originally from another culture, in which doctors are highly respected professionals... BUT, do not have particularly high status in society because they are not paid very highly. Doctors are highly sought after individuals in every society. But they do NOT have (equally) high status/levels of prestige in every society.

Doctors in the States are paid well because of the lack of a universal healthcare system, and because of the way insurance companies work, etc. This contributes a great deal to the "prestige" of the profession here in the States. The whole idea of "doctors" and "lawyers" being amongst the most respected/prestigious professions does NOT hold true across different cultures.

If this small fact has never crossed your mind, perhaps you should consider climbing out of that well and taking a look at the rest of the world one of these days.

 

[unsung]

So...is Drexel medical school better than harvard medical school because it has a lower admit percentage?

Use common sense. The best applicants are gunning for medical school, not vet, not dent, or any other pre-health field.

"Best" in what sense? GPA? Scientific ability? Research skills? Raw intelligence (IQ)?

Successful pre-meds who make it into medical school certainly have ample servings of all of the above. But, arguably, they are essentially "jacks of all trades, masters of none".

Medical school itself provides a broad (yet shallow) scientific education, because frankly, doctors need to know (a little bit) about a lot of different subjects. But does a doctor know as much about biochemistry as a biochemist?

If your definition of "best" = "jack of all trades", then I will concede that by that definition, doctors really are the best of the best. If your definition of "best" = renowned expert in highly specific fields... then obviously doctors do not fit that bill. And similarly, the typical pre-meds often demonstrate mastery over broad, disparate fields of knowledge (including a firm grounding in basic sciences)... but, are they always experts in a specific subject? Anyone who has taken the bare bones science pre-reqs can apply to medical school. The MCAT tests very basic scientific knowledge. Not to say it's not a challenging test (of course it is!)... but it's challenging because of its breadth, and not because of its depth.

You may not think highly of Egyptology, but my best friend is pursuing her PhD in the field, and the depth of knowledge she has in the subject matter impresses me on a daily basis. She's a brilliant individual, and I'm sure if she were interested in medicine, she would've gotten into medical school quite easily. But not everyone is interested in medicine!

Your "common sense" appeal that "the best applicants are gunning for medical school" is backed up by, quite frankly, nothing except your "common sense".

 

[MDizzy]

"Best" in what sense? GPA? Scientific ability? Research skills? Raw intelligence (IQ)?

Successful pre-meds who make it into medical school certainly have ample servings of all of the above. But, arguably, they are essentially "jacks of all trades, masters of none".

Medical school itself provides a broad (yet shallow) scientific education, because frankly, doctors need to know (a little bit) about a lot of different subjects. But does a doctor know as much about biochemistry as a biochemist?

If your definition of "best" = "jack of all trades", then I will concede that by that definition, doctors really are the best of the best. If your definition of "best" = renowned expert in highly specific fields... then obviously doctors do not fit that bill. And similarly, the typical pre-meds often demonstrate mastery over broad, disparate fields of knowledge (including a firm grounding in basic sciences)... but, are they always experts in a specific subject? Anyone who has taken the bare bones science pre-reqs can apply to medical school. The MCAT tests very basic scientific knowledge. Not to say it's not a challenging test (of course it is!)... but it's challenging because of its breadth, and not because of its depth.

You may not think highly of Egyptology, but my best friend is pursuing her PhD in the field, and the depth of knowledge she has in the subject matter impresses me on a daily basis. She's a brilliant individual, and I'm sure if she were interested in medicine, she would've gotten into medical school quite easily. But not everyone is interested in medicine!

Your "common sense" appeal that "the best applicants are gunning for medical school" is backed up by, quite frankly, nothing except your "common sense".

when I said "the best students are gunning for medicine, not any other health field" that implies I was comparing medicine to the other health fields, not egyptology. Use common sense and stop over-analyzing everything I say. The fact you were took organic chemistry in college, went to graduate school and are now posting on a medical school forum speaks for itself.

 

[MDizzy]

I have already gone through organic chemistry and graduated from college as well as graduate school, thank you very much. It's hardly a secret that many pre-meds get rude awakenings their very first year in college. And... I still fail to see your point. For the truly dedicated, a 1 in 3 acceptance rate is hardly discouraging.

I went to a state school and in my organic chemistry class there were about 35 people who started, and only 5 people finished. You say 1 in 3 acceptance rate to med school is hardly discouraging? Tell that to the dozens of other people who couldn't even cut organic 1. Define truly dedicated....you mean people who got at least >25 on the MCAT? Half of all mcat test-takers in a given year made less than a 25. There's another half of the potential applicant pool who has virtually no chance to get into a US MD school, many of which don't even bother applying. Oh yeah, if you don't have all the above AND a 3.5+ the pre-health advisor is subtly steering you into other fields like optometry, pharm, and dent. SO tell, me...what does "truly dedicated" mean?

 

[public5656]

This thread is pathetic. There is really no such thing as prestigious jobs. There are some jobs that are a lot harder then others…thus the need for the education and training.

There are two students in my organic chemistry class that always get over a 100 percent on their exams, but when you try to talk to them about world events you can learn more by talking to a wall then you can talking to them face-to-face. Guess what, these two students might end up getting into medical school. Beyond their knowledge of the class material, they are fricken idiots.

The hardest thing about becoming a doctor is getting admitted into medical school. Beyond that it’s not that difficult. …as long as you can handle everything that is thrown at you.

Doctors do make a lot of money, but they don’t make that much money. For the amount of debt a person has to go into to become a doctor, this equates to the person being set behind finically then does a person who owns their own business and the business becomes a success. There are a lot of other jobs where you can make a lot more money.

The reason why people go to see a doctor is because they need to, not because they want to.

Just because a person wants to be an allied health care professional and not a doctor does not mean they are less of a person then are the people who do become doctors. Some people find a certain allied health care career more interesting then being a doctor (i.e., Genetics wanting to be a genetic counselor).

I know of one of my old high school mates who had a higher GPA and better EC’s that became a speech pathologists then a person I went to high school with that had a lower GPA and less of EC’s that is now in residency. Guess what? The person who became a speech pathologists is a hell of a lot more happy with their life then is the resident.

 

[mahasanti]

Not to say that the doctors are not happy. Prob. 1 out of 5 doctors enjoys the career.....but still stated to me that they would have looked into other fields. This is difficult for you all to swallow and comprehend. None of us (most of us) have not practiced as MD's or DDS's.

Ummm... is this 1 out of 5 just a number you made up? A survey found in the July 22, 2002 Archives of Internal Medicine actually shows that 42.3% of all physicians are "very satistified" with their work. About 17.6% are "dissatisfied", and 40.1% are somewhere in the middle.

So it looks like over 2 out of 5 love their career and under 1 out of 5 don't really like it. Furthermore, it really matters what you specialize in. There are many more "very satisfied" physicians in geriatric internal medicine, infectious disease, neonatal and perinatal medicine, and pediatrics.

 

[Eric Lindros]

Glad to see your the only one who disagrees. This has nothing to do with what I am talking about....I think you should read the first post to find out how many MD's and DDS's in one family have given such opinion. This on top of countless discussion with well over 50 "outside" doctors.

Denial is the 1st step

I don't care how many doctors you have talked to or how many doctors you know, you DO NOT have to "give your whole being" when practicing medicine. You can have a family life, can do outside things, and dare I say it, can be happier than a dentist

 

[Eric Lindros]

Ummm... is this 1 out of 5 just a number you made up? A survey found in the July 22, 2002 Archives of Internal Medicine actually shows that 42.3% of all physicians are "very satistified" with their work. About 17.6% are "dissatisfied", and 40.1% are somewhere in the middle.

So it looks like over 2 out of 5 love their career and under 1 out of 5 don't really like it. Furthermore, it really matters what you specialize in. There are many more "very satisfied" physicians in geriatric internal medicine, infectious disease, neonatal and perinatal medicine, and pediatrics.

But didn't you hear, LIDO has like 50 doctors in his/her family that say otherwise

 

[Eric Lindros]

This is perhaps the most ridiculous post I have seen on this site yet

This thread is pathetic. There is really no such thing as prestigious jobs. There are some jobs that are a lot harder then others…thus the need for the education and training.

This is just silly. By your standards, the President of the United States is not a prestigious position, it's just a lot harder , thus the need for education (and ironically, the president does not even need to know how to read)

There are two students in my organic chemistry class that always get over a 100 percent on their exams, but when you try to talk to them about world events you can learn more by talking to a wall then you can talking to them face-to-face. Guess what, these two students might end up getting into medical school. Beyond their knowledge of the class material, they are fricken idiots.

I'm not even sure how to respond to this. What is your point with this little anecdote? Why do we care about two kids from your ochem class who might go into medicine? Are you trying to say that some idiots end up in medicine? Well, yeah duh but that goes for every job, prestigious or not.

The hardest thing about becoming a doctor is getting admitted into medical school. Beyond that it’s not that difficult. …as long as you can handle everything that is thrown at you.

Again, not even sure how to respond to this due to how ridiculous the statement is.

Doctors do make a lot of money, but they don’t make that much money. For the amount of debt a person has to go into to become a doctor, this equates to the person being set behind finically then does a person who owns their own business and the business becomes a success. There are a lot of other jobs where you can make a lot more money.

We already all know this. What's your point?

The reason why people go to see a doctor is because they need to, not because they want to.

You realize you just made a very good case for why the profession is in fact prestigious?

Just because a person wants to be an allied health care professional and not a doctor does not mean they are less of a person then are the people who do become doctors. Some people find a certain allied health care career more interesting then being a doctor (i.e., Genetics wanting to be a genetic counselor).

There was an old troll named Genetics who used to love to bring this up. Or, could it be....

I know of one of my old high school mates who had a higher GPA and better EC’s that became a speech pathologists then a person I went to high school with that had a lower GPA and less of EC’s that is now in residency. Guess what? The person who became a speech pathologists is a hell of a lot more happy with their life then is the resident.

Trying not to laugh.....

 

[MDizzy]

Notice how the overwhelming majority saying being a doctor is not prestigious are the ones ones on the outside looking in, ie) they're not in med school or not physicians. Ask anyone on the street to name the 3 most prestigious jobs one can have and you'll hear a doctor every time, if not first. There's a handful of people so far who are in medical school who have said they didn't care about prestige, etc, but notice they never say it's NOT prestigious as some of these other bitter folks.

 

[pennybridge]

Notice how the overwhelming majority saying being a doctor is not prestigious are the ones ones on the outside looking in, ie) they're not in med school or not physicians. Ask anyone on the street to name the 3 most prestigious jobs one can have and you'll hear a doctor every time, if not first. There's a handful of people so far who are in medical school who have said they didn't care about prestige, etc, but notice they never say it's NOT prestigious as some of these other bitter folks.

lest we forget the name of this place is student doctor network, and pre-allo is up at the tip top of the page.

suck it dents.

 

[LIDO]

Ummm... is this 1 out of 5 just a number you made up? A survey found in the July 22, 2002 Archives of Internal Medicine actually shows that 42.3% of all physicians are "very satistified" with their work. About 17.6% are "dissatisfied", and 40.1% are somewhere in the middle.

So it looks like over 2 out of 5 love their career and under 1 out of 5 don't really like it. Furthermore, it really matters what you specialize in. There are many more "very satisfied" physicians in geriatric internal medicine, infectious disease, neonatal and perinatal medicine, and pediatrics.

Firstly......"very satistified" is not the correct spelling......

Ifyou wanna hope you do not fall into the 57.7 range of either "I am unhappy" or "I might be unhappy" then go ahead. It does appear that you are less likely to be "very satisfied" as you have shown.

I state my connections with doctors because many pre-meds have no idea what it is like. They are entering the field blind and unaware. Can you tell me the current legislation of your state for malpractice, from the top of your head? Can you tell me the percent of doctors in your state that have fled / stopped performing procedures as stated before congress by the American Medical Association in 2002? Can you explain the fact that if you do a procedure and it is covered by an insurance company, why does a doctor have to wait sometimes over a year to be compensated? Can you tell me how many people in your state have been sued out of practice? Lastly, can you tell me with an honest statement exactly how many doctors you have personally known on a solid level and have asked how happy they are with the career?

I can tell you all of these facts. I have researched these issues and there are plenty others.....that is the tip of the iceberg.

I am not trying to tell anybody that going into medicine is not wise. I am curious if people know of the severe implications besides lifestyle. Of course we will all defend our choice in whatever case. Especially when we lack experience.....but to defend that choice I sincerely hope that you have substantial evidence and knowledge. If this is the case and you are fully aware of these and the laundry list of other issues....then again, that is wonderful.

Sorry if the original post did not sound correct. I simply wanted to share a bit of knowledge. If you have other opinions to battle some of these issues or can seriously provide evidence to the contrary......in a suitable manner....please do.

Bashing and making rude remarks is simply immature. That right there simply shows that you very well may not know the truth. (Referring to the comment posted by a different person)

 

[LIDO]

First of all that is a pretty immature comment. Secondly, the dents will have more time off and you will be working all day. So you better make sure your wifey doesn't get bored or that lude phrase may be altered a bit

Now that was also immature.

 

[pennybridge]

First of all that is a pretty immature comment. Secondly, the dents will have more time off and you will be working all day. So you better make sure your wifey doesn't get bored or that lude phrase may be altered a bit

Now that was also immature.

i'm not sure what me working all the time or my wife getting bored has to do with your fellatious acts that you can, indeed, perform on me and my future physician buddies.

don't forget to floss.

 

[spicedmanna]

I give up, it's impossible for a pre-dent to have a conversation about anything with a pre-med without it being med vs. dent

Yup, that's pretty much true, especially on SDN pre-allo. Part of the reason you are getting non-constructive responses is because most people realize this and don't take it seriously. If it's any consolation, it's not as bad as MD vs. DO, however. Those threads decay much faster.

 

[pennybridge]

Yup, that's pretty much true, especially on SDN pre-allo. Part of the reason you are getting non-constructive responses is because most people realize this and don't take it seriously. If it's any consolation, it's not as bad as MD vs. DO, however. Those threads decay much faster.

that's because they can't confuse us with their tricky backrubs.

 

[LIDO]

i'm not sure what me working all the time or my wife getting bored has to do with your fellatious acts that you can, indeed, perform on me and my future physician buddies.

don't forget to floss.

Nice attempt at a come back

 

[Auron]

lest we forget the name of this place is student doctor network, and pre-allo is up at the tip top of the page.

suck it dents.

I always find if funny when pre-dents or former pre-meds react when they find out I'm pre-med. They always come up with some lame excuse or reasons to defend their current field of study. If a person tells me he's pre-dent or something else I don't get all worked up about it - because quite frankly I don't care. Not all people are like this....but many are pretty bitter.

 

[SupergreenMnM]

Doctors are GODS. Everyone else is at best a Demigod, most, however, are puny mortals.

 

[spicedmanna]

From Google (define: prestige):

"Prestige means good reputation or high esteem, although it originally meant a delusion or magician's trick (Latin pr&#230;stigum)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prestige_(sociology)

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

Firstly......"very satistified" is not the correct spelling......

Ifyou wanna hope you do not fall into the 57.7 range of either "I am unhappy" or "I might be unhappy" then go ahead. It does appear that you are less likely to be "very satisfied" as you have shown.

Neither is "Ifyou."

Please don't turn this carnival into a grammar rodeo.

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

Nice attempt at a come back

This wasn't a very good comeback either.

You could have responded with "I am rubber and you are glue" and even that would have been better.

: /

I thought it was a pretty good comeback anyway. Although without the last line, it would have been just "suck this." But he implied you would have to floss the crusted ejaculate out of your teeth.

 

[maddscientist]

i'm not sure what me working all the time or my wife getting bored has to do with your fellatious acts that you can, indeed, perform on me and my future physician buddies.

don't forget to floss.

You win the thread. Funniest comment on SDN yet.

 

[MDizzy]

I always find if funny when pre-dents or former pre-meds react when they find out I'm pre-med. They always come up with some lame excuse or reasons to defend their current field of study. If a person tells me he's pre-dent or something else I don't get all worked up about it - because quite frankly I don't care. Not all people are like this....but many are pretty bitter.

You summed up the "nature of this thread" nicely. The only ones who care enough to try to analyze "the nature of prestige in medicine"--which in fact, is a lame attempt at "stealing the thunder" of medicine in disguise--are pre-dents or dents who feel so insecure about their own career choices, they have to tear down the choice that is widely perceived as superior.

 

[Yellowman]

Hey guys....was just wondering. What about those oral & maxillofacial surgeons who have both a DDS and MD degree? Are they still losers even though they have their medical degrees from a accredited US medical school? Or is the prestige of a dual degree (DDS, MD) oral & maxillofacial surgeon somewhere in between a MD and a DDS? Look at this guy....he's the director of craniofacial surgery at stanford! Could his job still be considered 'prestigious' despite the fact that he has a DDS? This is very confusing!

http://plasticsurgery.stanford.edu/faculty/schendel.html