The ultimate COVID thread

[deleted171991]

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On a positive note, anesthesiologists are getting a lot of (well received) attention in national news.

Yeah, a lot of thanks to healthcare workers:

Coronavirus Heroes Are Getting Tossed From Their Homes

“We’re being seen as walking Petri dishes.”

www.thedailybeast.com

 

[Painted]

Can't make this sh-t up:

Trump says he told Pence “dont call the woman in Michigan”.

I think he’s forgetting he’s going to need MI in November.

 

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

Just a medical student, but I've been reading about the terrible mortality rates for those on vents in the ICU. What exactly are we doing besides giving oxygen that is improving mortality rates in the hospital? I'm just trying to figure out what exactly are the consequences of overwhelming the healthcare system.

You make an excellent point I was alluding to earlier. If vent outcomes are abysmal we may be making a bad call tying up ICU and vent capacity on covid patients if those other critical emergencies suffer as a consequence. Before I get slammed by the righteous for playing God, if/when capacity is actually reached those are the tough decisions one has to make.

 

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

Based on Diamond Princess data 0.025-0.625%

Would not surprise me at all (although that range is extremely wide by a multiple of 25x). One flaw though in the assumption is a cruise may be a healthier younger crowd more likely to survive covid than the general population, or it may be more of an older crowd that will have worse outcomes than the general population. I've been on both types of cruises.

 

[NicMouse64]

You make an excellent point I was alluding to earlier. If vent outcomes are abysmal we may be making a bad call tying up ICU and vent capacity on covid patients if those other critical emergencies suffer as a consequence. Before I get slammed by the righteous for playing God, if/when capacity is actually reached those are the tough decisions one has to make.

Yeah if there are other diseases which have better outcomes and less vent time....It's not playing god..it's doing what is best with the resources that we have. This is not a typical day in an ICU it appears.

 

[deleted643396]

A lottery for ventilators? Hospitals prepare for ethical conundrums

While some states have ethics guidelines in place, there is no national standard for who gets access to scarce life-saving machinery.

www.politico.com

If/when New York needs to start rationing, the ethical guidelines written in 2015 state that the person most likely to recover gets the ventilator (or whatever else might be limited). If a number of patients need a limited resource and they all have equal likelihood of recovery then a lottery would be the fairest option, according to the ethical guidelines.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Cash is King during times of crisis:

I moved 6 months of living expenses into my checking account plus my usual 6 months. It is always nice to have cash nearby in times of crisis.

 

[needledox]

It’s because the Idiot and his merry band of sycophants have made a political calculation...not a humanitarian or economic calculation. If the Idiot wants to hold onto power he has to hope that the “red” and “purple” states don’t turn into outbreak zones. In the meantime thousands of people will die and healthcare workers will risk their health while the sycophants and their billionaire cronies sequester themselves in their mansions.

It’s a last gasp gamble by an Idiot.

though I’m not surprised, I still watch in amazement how liberals take every opportunity to turn this into a political matter.

never waste a good crisis, no truer words have ever been spoken

 

[needledox]

I smell a rat. It's just a hunch, but it appears the numbers of celebrities, athletes, and politicians testing positive is disproportionately too high for the total number of cases. These are high priority/privileged people with access to testing and I'm hearing just too many positives to believe we only have 100,000 cases. My hunch is that number is not just a little low, but very low, meaning we may be further along on the way to the apex, lower death rate, lower total deaths, etc. We'll see.

millions upon millions have this virus, and it’s been going around since January

 

[deleted171991]

millions upon millions have this virus, and it’s been going around since January

And many more millions don't.

 

[deleted171991]

though I’m not surprised, I still watch in amazement how liberals take every opportunity to turn this into a political matter.

never waste a good crisis, no truer words have ever been spoken

You should realize s/he's probably telling the truth in the post you quoted. As unbelievable and paranoid as it may sound, the WH hasn't helped properly any Democratic governor yet, despite claiming to have the resources. It's all about PR. So the only logical explanation is that they are keeping them for the "base" and the swing states.

Playing politics with people's lives... I don't care about the political colors of my patients; neither should the president of the United States, who should be a better quality person than most of us. Remember George Washington? Abraham Lincoln? That's why people miss Obama, not because of his politics. Even Putin visited Covid-19 patients in a Moscow hospital, instead of commenting from far away that the governor doesn't know what he's talking about.

That includes not delivering enough PPE, by the way, while healthcare workers are wearing improvisations and getting sick; FEMA should have them, the national reserves should have them. So don't be so fast to blame @GravelRider's politics. Better look at Trump's.

Personally, I can't stand the PC movement and all the woke anti-white anti-male anti-middle class SJW delirium on the left, which remind me of stalinism. A lot of people would love to have a republican leader that deserves admiration and support.

 

[Mikkel]

You should realize s/he's probably telling the truth in the post you quoted. As unbelievable and paranoid as it may sound, the WH hasn't helped properly any Democratic governor yet, despite claiming to have the resources. It's all about PR. So the only logical explanation is that they are keeping them for the "base" and the swing states.

Playing politics with people's lives... I don't care about the political colors of my patients; neither should the president of the United States, who should be a better quality person than most of us. Remember George Washington? Abraham Lincoln? That's why people miss Obama, not because of his politics. Even Putin visited Covid-19 patients in a Moscow hospital, instead of commenting from far away that the governor doesn't know what he's talking about.

That includes not delivering enough PPE, by the way, while healthcare workers are wearing improvisations and getting sick; FEMA should have them, the national reserves should have them. So don't be so fast to blame @GravelRider's politics. Better look at Trump's.

Personally, I can't stand the PC movement and all the woke anti-white anti-male anti-middle class SJW delirium on the left, which remind me of stalinism. A lot of people would love to have a republican leader that deserves admiration and support.

Cuomo admitted yesterday that they have plenty of ventilators and PPE, that they have thousands and thousands of extra ventilators in warehouse ready for deployment. This was in response to a report calling out Cuomo for lying about his supply status.

In other words, he was crying wolf on supplies to get a political advantage, AFTER he and his political allies encouraged everyone to be out and about when coronavirus was rapidly spreading throughout New York City, all to counter Trump's "racist" China travel ban.

How can you not see this?

 

[Mad Jack]

Cuomo admitted yesterday that they have plenty of ventilators and PPE, that they have thousands and thousands of extra ventilators in warehouse ready for deployment. This was in response to a report calling out Cuomo for lying about his supply status.

In other words, he was crying wolf on supplies to get a political advantage, AFTER he and his political allies encouraged everyone to be out and about when coronavirus was rapidly spreading throughout New York City, all to counter Trump's "racist" China travel ban.

How can you not see this?

The best estimates we have right now are going to result in a lot of dead people. When more people have died because the president refused to offer supplies, what will your excuse for him be then? He has a pandemic playbook that he did not use, and his administration fired the people that were most competent to stop this. He then went on to minimize it with words that we are still fighting today (it's just the flu, it'll go away in summer, etc). When the deaths start hitting the six and seven figures in the setting of Trump refusing to offer a federal response (he says he's leaving it to the governors and the feds are just taking a supportive role, unprecedented in a pandemic), what then?

The outcomes of pandemics are *almost entirely dependent* upon national leadership, and this is what separates us from Japan or South Korea.

 

[maxxor]

It’s not just democratic governors.

Charlie Baker vents about getting outbid by the Trump administration for medical supplies

As medical supplies dwindle, Gov. Charlie Baker says his administration has put in hours on end trying to get health care workers the equipment they need to treat the ever-growing number of COVID-19 patients. However, officials keep running into a familiar obstacle: The federal government, which...

www.boston.com

 

[Mikkel]

View attachment 300039
The best estimates we have right now are going to result in a lot of dead people. When more people have died because the president refused to offer supplies, what will your excuse for him be then? He has a pandemic playbook that he did not use, and his administration fired the people that were most competent to stop this. He then went on to minimize it with words that we are still fighting today (it's just the flu, it'll go away in summer, etc). When the deaths start hitting the six and seven figures in the setting of Trump refusing to offer a federal response (he says he's leaving it to the governors and the feds are just taking a supportive role, unprecedented in a pandemic), what then?

The outcomes of pandemics are *almost entirely dependent* upon national leadership, and this is what separates us from Japan or South Korea.

No, what separates us from Asia is thousands of miles across an ocean and the absence of SARS in the United States. That happened 18 years ago, yet Bush and Obama did not put in billions of dollars to create a monitoring and testing infrastructure. You're blaming Trump for the lack of infrastructure that Obama and Bush did not provide either?

Cuomo had to admit that he was lying about the lack of federally provided supplies yesterday. FEMA gave New York thousands of ventilators that are now sitting in a warehouse unused.

There is a federal government and 50 state governments. States are responsible for the bulk of preparedness and policy. Trump shut down travel from China in January. New York politicians were calling that racist until March.

New York politicians decided that keeping me New York subways, businesses, parades, and other public events at the worst time of coronavirus spread was a good idea, now they're suffering.

New York was also short on PPE for over a year. Hardly an acute problem, thanks to mismanagement from New York politicians.

 

[Mikkel]

It’s not just democratic governors.

Charlie Baker vents about getting outbid by the Trump administration for medical supplies

As medical supplies dwindle, Gov. Charlie Baker says his administration has put in hours on end trying to get health care workers the equipment they need to treat the ever-growing number of COVID-19 patients. However, officials keep running into a familiar obstacle: The federal government, which...

www.boston.com

So, the federal government is taking an active role in procuring supplies that will be distributed from the federal level to the states, because there's a shortage of supplies nationwide.

 

[maxxor]

So, the federal government is taking an active role in procuring supplies that will be distributed from the federal level to the states, because there's a shortage of supplies nationwide.

To listen to the governors, it sounds like the federal government is buying up everything while simultaneously telling the states “you’re on your own” and outbidding the states. It does not appear that these federal supplies are making it to the states.

As someone working at a hospital with 100+ covid inpatients, it’s pretty annoying we don’t have sufficient PPE. I’m still expected to do biopsies for cancer patients but we have no face shields or N95.

 

[Mad Jack]

No, what separates us from Asia is thousands of miles across an ocean and the absence of SARS in the United States. That happened 18 years ago, yet Bush and Obama did not put in billions of dollars to create a monitoring and testing infrastructure. You're blaming Trump for the lack of infrastructure that Obama and Bush did not provide either?

Cuomo had to admit that he was lying about the lack of federally provided supplies yesterday. FEMA gave New York thousands of ventilators that are now sitting in a warehouse unused.

There is a federal government and 50 state governments. States are responsible for the bulk of preparedness and policy. Trump shut down travel from China in January. New York politicians were calling that racist until March.

New York politicians decided that keeping me New York subways, businesses, parades, and other public events at the worst time of coronavirus spread was a good idea, now they're suffering.

New York was also short on PPE for over a year. Hardly an acute problem, thanks to mismanagement from New York politicians.

Name one pandemic that has ever been stopped by a state government. I'll wait. We know, from hundreds of years of history, that coordinated national responses are critical. Trump damn well should have been telling people "this is deadly and if you do not shut down operations and take this seriously I will cut off federal funding for all programs starting immediately." Instead he says things were fine and did basically nothing to prepare. He's the damn leader of the country, he's not a mayor or a governor. It is his job to handle national crises, period. And he has done nothing to nationalize the response, period. He has done nothing to encourage well established response measures that have stemmed prior pandemics. He has completely and utterly failed in the job he was elected to do.

Client Challenge

www.ft.com

(Evidently not a free article, but basically just spells out the strategies that have worked abroad. Also Jspan had ZERO SARS cases and still implemented adequate pandemic control measures through learning by observation, which were easily could have done)

Furthermore he is encouraging reopening of the country far earlier than any epidemiologist would recommend, which is going to have a toll in lives. Lots of them. It is ridiculous to say you can't politicize a President not doing the job they were elected to do. The President must handle war, economic policy, public health policy, natural disasters, the whole nine. And any president that screws up any one of them is fair game.

 

[Mad Jack]

To listen to the governors, it sounds like the federal government is buying up everything while simultaneously telling the states “you’re on your own” and outbidding the states. It does not appear that these federal supplies are making it to the states.

As someone working at a hospital with 100+ covid inpatients, it’s pretty annoying we don’t have sufficient PPE. I’m still expected to do biopsies for cancer patients but we have no face shields or N95.

We literally didn't have BASIC MASKS available for a few days except a small stash for confirmed patients with COVID, and when we finally got some they weren't medical grade. We have ZERO face shields. For-profit healthcare and shortsighted governance have combined to create a situation that is putting our lives in danger every damn day

 

[Mikkel]

Name one pandemic that has ever been stopped by a state government. I'll wait. We know, from hundreds of years of history, that coordinated national responses are critical. Trump damn well should have been telling people "this is deadly and if you do not shut down operations and take this seriously I will cut off federal funding for all programs starting immediately." Instead he says things were fine and did basically nothing to prepare. He's the damn leader of the country, he's not a mayor or a governor. It is his job to handle national crises, period. And he has done nothing to nationalize the response, period. He has done nothing to encourage well established response measures that have stemmed prior pandemics. He has completely and utterly failed in the job he was elected to do.

Trump shut down travel with China, he was called a dictator and a racist for doing so.

Trump shut down travel with Europe, he was called a tyrant.


You wanted Trump to have every state shut down immediately, in DECEMBER, and take away federal funds from states that do not comply...

Are you insane?

 

[Mikkel]

Trump shut down travel with China, he was called a dictator and a racist for doing so.

Trump shut down travel with Europe, he was called a tyrant.


You wanted Trump to have every state shut down immediately, in DECEMBER, and take away federal funds from states that do not comply...

Are you insane?

@Mad Jack Let's say we did what you advocated, complete shutdown of travel in and out of the United States in December.

Are citizens abroad allowed to return?

Are foreign ships allowed to dock?

Are Canadiens allowed to visit?

Are Mexicans allowed to visit?

Would the shutdown extend indefinitely? Coronavirus is a worldwide pandemic, likely to be endemic and seasonal.

You're the expert, not the CDC, so I think the World would greatly appreciate your expertise in How to Stop a Pandemic 101.

 

[parcus]

So the whole concept about: you need a new mask every 2 hours/every surgery was completely overkill and the culture that created of throwing away masks may be making everything worse now? After a quick google search I could not find anything conclusive that masks are ineffective after X amount of time. Found one study showing that masks have more bacteria after being worn for >2 hours, but does that really mean they are ineffective at preventing infections from droplets? Does anyone have anything more compelling for that policy than that?

 

[Mad Jack]

Trump shut down travel with China, he was called a dictator and a racist for doing so.

Trump shut down travel with Europe, he was called a tyrant.


You wanted Trump to have every state shut down immediately, in DECEMBER, and take away federal funds from states that do not comply...

Are you insane?

I applauded his travel bans. Every city that had Corona should have been immediately shut down for two weeks while contact tracing could occur. You do not need to shut down every city and state, but once the virus is present you need total containment of that area. He *should be* nationalizing the response as we did with smallpox. He has refused, because he does not want the responsibility. His lack of leadership is staggering.

I am not a Democrat, for the record. I'm a person that still has a modicum of common sense. It should be blatantly apparent that Trump is mishandling the situation in a manner no president before him of any political stripe would have. But hey, don't listen to me. When the virus continues to rage worse in the United States than anywhere else in the world and your stocks are worth a fraction of what they used to be, hopefully you'll be more open to the reality of the situation.

 

[Mad Jack]

@Mad Jack Let's say we did what you advocated, complete shutdown of travel in and out of the United States in December.

Are citizens abroad allowed to return?

Are foreign ships allowed to dock?

Are Canadiens allowed to visit?

Are Mexicans allowed to visit?

Would the shutdown extend indefinitely? Coronavirus is a worldwide pandemic, likely to be endemic and seasonal.

You're the expert, not the CDC, so I think the World would greatly appreciate your expertise in How to Stop a Pandemic 101.

I wasn't advocating total shutdown of the country. Only of cities with confirmed cases.

Anyone returning from an endemic country would be quarantined, period. No docking of ships from endemic countries. Divert funding immediately to the CDC and private corporations to develop and deploy rapid on-site testing. Start ordering PPE en masse from companiea once cases crossed 3,000 in China, along with consulting with international experts on what supplies will be needed and what measures should be taken. Order ventilators and start preparing military for stateside deployment to assist with crisis. Conduct full evaluation of stockpiles and what facilities can be utilized for quarantine and hospital overflow. Make it very clear to the public that we are preparing for war against an invisible enemy, and that we will not be able to stop it, but through early measures we can buy ourselves time to prepare.

Had all of this been done earlier, we could have bought ourselves time and spent billions to save trillions. The ultimate purpose of buying time is to ensure we're have adequate supplies before it becomes fully endemic and starts to overwhelm the health care system. Two months, three months, four months of massively increased production could have helped us greatly. Instead he squandered the crucial early response, which, if you read any history book about literally any pandemic, is THE response that matters.

 

[needledox]

You should realize s/he's probably telling the truth in the post you quoted. As unbelievable and paranoid as it may sound, the WH hasn't helped properly any Democratic governor yet, despite claiming to have the resources. It's all about PR. So the only logical explanation is that they are keeping them for the "base" and the swing states.

Playing politics with people's lives... I don't care about the political colors of my patients; neither should the president of the United States, who should be a better quality person than most of us. Remember George Washington? Abraham Lincoln? That's why people miss Obama, not because of his politics. Even Putin visited Covid-19 patients in a Moscow hospital, instead of commenting from far away that the governor doesn't know what he's talking about.

That includes not delivering enough PPE, by the way, while healthcare workers are wearing improvisations and getting sick; FEMA should have them, the national reserves should have them. So don't be so fast to blame @GravelRider's politics. Better look at Trump's.

Personally, I can't stand the PC movement and all the woke anti-white anti-male anti-middle class SJW delirium on the left, which remind me of stalinism. A lot of people would love to have a republican leader that deserves admiration and support.

I’ll start by saying I’m not a staunch Trump supporter in the slightest, I vote for what benefits me and my family. I voted for Obama his first term. Romney the second go around

We see the president through the media. Anyone who denies Obama was protected and trump is targeted is a bold faced liar. People tend to be idiots and can’t think for themselves.

All I’m saying is the entire narrative has shifted from the virus, which no human could have prepared for to how horrible trump is. It’s been the same song and dance since he’s been in office.

the extreme left is falling all over themselves to use this as an opportunity to get him out in November.
When I put on the news 80% of it is trump, 20% is the virus.

if you deny this fact, you’re nothing more than a sheep.

can anyone with a straight face tell me if Trump would’ve done an absolutely PERFECT job handling this the media would be singing his praises? Not a chance in hell

 

[needledox]

I applauded his travel bans. Every city that had Corona should have been immediately shut down for two weeks while contact tracing could occur. You do not need to shut down every city and state, but once the virus is present you need total containment of that area. He *should be* nationalizing the response as we did with smallpox. He has refused, because he does not want the responsibility. His lack of leadership is staggering.

I am not a Democrat, for the record. I'm a person that still has a modicum of common sense. It should be blatantly apparent that Trump is mishandling the situation in a manner no president before him of any political stripe would have. But hey, don't listen to me. When the virus continues to rage worse in the United States than anywhere else in the world and your stocks are worth a fraction of what they used to be, hopefully you'll be more open to the reality of the situation.

But you see, there you go. If the virus rages through the USA you’re going to blame one man? Doesn’t that seem a little insane? Presidents are not god. Why isn’t the media ripping the Italian PM/President apart? Why isn’t he getting all the blame?

Just playing devils advocate here

 

[crash2500]

I’ll start by saying I’m not a staunch Trump supporter in the slightest, I vote for what benefits me and my family. I voted for Obama his first term. Romney the second go around

We see the president through the media. Anyone who denies Obama was protected and trump is targeted is a bold faced liar. People tend to be idiots and can’t think for themselves.

All I’m saying is the entire narrative has shifted from the virus, which no human could have prepared for to how horrible trump is. It’s been the same song and dance since he’s been in office.

the extreme left is falling all over themselves to use this as an opportunity to get him out in November.
When I put on the news 80% of it is trump, 20% is the virus.

if you deny this fact, you’re nothing more than a sheep.

can anyone with a straight face tell me if Trump would’ve done an absolutely PERFECT job handling this the media would be singing his praises? Not a chance in hell

You say you're not a trump supporter and then follow it up with THAT post?

I love how staunch conservatives say they voted for Obama the 'first time.' Its like saying you lasted an hour your 'first time.'

 

[marr65]

But you see, there you go. If the virus rages through the USA you’re going to blame one man? Doesn’t that seem a little insane? Presidents are not god. Why isn’t the media ripping the Italian PM/President apart? Why isn’t he getting all the blame?

Just playing devils advocate here

The President earns praises and draws criticisms, this is a fact. No one blames him for the Pandemic but the execution to contain it is lacking to say the least. Trump is our General, our QB, our head honcho, he should be leading us in time of crisis but all we get is a bunch of nonsense and rhetoric. If you don’t like the media coverage, go listen to something else.

 

[Mikkel]

I applauded his travel bans. Every city that had Corona should have been immediately shut down for two weeks while contact tracing could occur. You do not need to shut down every city and state, but once the virus is present you need total containment of that area. He *should be* nationalizing the response as we did with smallpox. He has refused, because he does not want the responsibility. His lack of leadership is staggering.

I am not a Democrat, for the record. I'm a person that still has a modicum of common sense. It should be blatantly apparent that Trump is mishandling the situation in a manner no president before him of any political stripe would have. But hey, don't listen to me. When the virus continues to rage worse in the United States than anywhere else in the world and your stocks are worth a fraction of what they used to be, hopefully you'll be more open to the reality of the situation.

New York state has confirmed its first coronavirus case

New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo said the patient is a woman in her late 30s who contracted the virus while traveling in Iran.

www.businessinsider.com

First NYC case was March 1st.

The infected person came from Iran, not within the United States.

Cuomo didn't shut down New York City.

Subways were open, public buildings open, businesses open, stock exchanges open, parks open, museums open.

Cuomo deserves 100% responsibility for New York turning into an epicenter of the virus in the United States.

 

[Mikkel]

I wasn't advocating total shutdown of the country. Only of cities with confirmed cases.

Anyone returning from an endemic country would be quarantined, period. No docking of ships from endemic countries. Divert funding immediately to the CDC and private corporations to develop and deploy rapid on-site testing. Start ordering PPE en masse from companiea once cases crossed 3,000 in China, along with consulting with international experts on what supplies will be needed and what measures should be taken. Order ventilators and start preparing military for stateside deployment to assist with crisis. Conduct full evaluation of stockpiles and what facilities can be utilized for quarantine and hospital overflow. Make it very clear to the public that we are preparing for war against an invisible enemy, and that we will not be able to stop it, but through early measures we can buy ourselves time to prepare.

Had all of this been done earlier, we could have bought ourselves time and spent billions to save trillions. The ultimate purpose of buying time is to ensure we're have adequate supplies before it becomes fully endemic and starts to overwhelm the health care system. Two months, three months, four months of massively increased production could have helped us greatly. Instead he squandered the crucial early response, which, if you read any history book about literally any pandemic, is THE response that matters.

You're NOT advocating for a total shutdown? Despite the fact that coronavirus is spreading rapidly via asymptomatic carriers?

So Trump should have shutdown travel from China in December?

 

[Mikkel]

I wasn't advocating total shutdown of the country. Only of cities with confirmed cases.

Anyone returning from an endemic country would be quarantined, period. No docking of ships from endemic countries. Divert funding immediately to the CDC and private corporations to develop and deploy rapid on-site testing. Start ordering PPE en masse from companiea once cases crossed 3,000 in China, along with consulting with international experts on what supplies will be needed and what measures should be taken. Order ventilators and start preparing military for stateside deployment to assist with crisis. Conduct full evaluation of stockpiles and what facilities can be utilized for quarantine and hospital overflow. Make it very clear to the public that we are preparing for war against an invisible enemy, and that we will not be able to stop it, but through early measures we can buy ourselves time to prepare.

Had all of this been done earlier, we could have bought ourselves time and spent billions to save trillions. The ultimate purpose of buying time is to ensure we're have adequate supplies before it becomes fully endemic and starts to overwhelm the health care system. Two months, three months, four months of massively increased production could have helped us greatly. Instead he squandered the crucial early response, which, if you read any history book about literally any pandemic, is THE response that matters.

Considering that China is the country responsible for manufacturing most of our PPE, I'd say Trump's actions 3 years ago to decrease reliance on China were in preparation for a pandemic.

Would you give credit to Trump to try to get the USA more self reliant for critical goods, whereas previous presidents like Obama completely failed the USA by perpetuating a reliance on China for critical goods?

 

[Mikkel]

I applauded his travel bans. Every city that had Corona should have been immediately shut down for two weeks while contact tracing could occur. You do not need to shut down every city and state, but once the virus is present you need total containment of that area. He *should be* nationalizing the response as we did with smallpox. He has refused, because he does not want the responsibility. His lack of leadership is staggering.

I am not a Democrat, for the record. I'm a person that still has a modicum of common sense. It should be blatantly apparent that Trump is mishandling the situation in a manner no president before him of any political stripe would have. But hey, don't listen to me. When the virus continues to rage worse in the United States than anywhere else in the world and your stocks are worth a fraction of what they used to be, hopefully you'll be more open to the reality of the situation.

Do you realize that the CDC was already doing that?

Unfortunately, the virus spreads faster than anyone expected, and it spreads via asymptomatic carriers.

You can't quarantine people you don't know are infected.

 

[Mad Jack]

But you see, there you go. If the virus rages through the USA you’re going to blame one man? Doesn’t that seem a little insane? Presidents are not god. Why isn’t the media ripping the Italian PM/President apart? Why isn’t he getting all the blame?

Just playing devils advocate here

I'm blaming him for the depth and degree to which he has failed in prioritizing and containing the virus. He could have done things properly from the start as many other nations did and avoided the worst of this, and his poor leadership will have a body count. The Italian PM shares a great deal of blame in his own country's failure to contain the virus, and should also be held to account. The POTUS has the power to address public health crises, and he STILL HAS NOT USED SAID POWER. He has told states that he will take a back seat in the crisis, and will let them lead. That is not the role of the President in a national health crisis, he should be taking a strong and involved leadership position that gives clear and direct orders to the nation. To give you an idea, we had a damn national vaccine corps established for smallpox in short order that would forcibly vaccinate people, quarantine areas, and burned down the homes of the infected. He should have responded strongly and early, using powers that ONLY the president has, but he sat around doing nothing but falsely reassuring the public (many of whom still believe this is no big deal due to his early statements). He is not held to the standards of you and I, he is held to the standards of leadership expected of the greatest and most powerful nation in the world. He has failed utterly to show strong leadership or effective policy with regard to the issue. Furthermore his insistence that we all get back to work next month will likely have quite a toll in morbidity and mortality if followed, and has not been recommended by any reputable infectious disease expert anywhere in the world.

If he would listen to and follow the advice of experts, we would be in a much better place right now. He has a guide instructing him on EXACTLY WHAT TO DO IN THIS SITUATION. He has followed none of it. Had he followed expert advice and failed, that would be one thing. But he has just fumbled his way through this constantly, listening to nothing but his gut. A President should not be held to the same leadership standards of a damn high school quarterback.

 

[Mad Jack]

Considering that China is the country responsible for manufacturing most of our PPE, I'd say Trump's actions 3 years ago to decrease reliance on China were in preparation for a pandemic.

Would you give credit to Trump to try to get the USA more self reliant for critical goods, whereas previous presidents like Obama completely failed the USA by perpetuating a reliance on China for critical goods?

I think less reliance on China is critical. But we have manufacturing capacity here he could have utilized through activation of wartime powers much earlier which could have allowed for scaling up of US manufacturing so that by the time we were hit hard we would not have had our pants around our ankles

 

[Mad Jack]

Do you realize that the CDC was already doing that?

Unfortunately, the virus spreads faster than anyone expected, and it spreads via asymptomatic carriers.

You can't quarantine people you don't know are infected.

They quarantined *people that had been exposed.* I would have called for *total quarantine of ALL individuals entering the United States* and total lockdown of ANY city with community spread immediately. This would not spare us, again. But it would buy us precious time to scale up manufacturing and stockpile supplies.

 

[Mad Jack]

New York state has confirmed its first coronavirus case

New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo said the patient is a woman in her late 30s who contracted the virus while traveling in Iran.

www.businessinsider.com

First NYC case was March 1st.

The infected person came from Iran, not within the United States.

Cuomo didn't shut down New York City.

Subways were open, public buildings open, businesses open, stock exchanges open, parks open, museums open.

Cuomo deserves 100% responsibility for New York turning into an epicenter of the virus in the United States.

Trump should have been quarantining all individuals coming into the country and telling cities they must shut down when cases arise or lose funding. Cuomo is a governor, he certainly shares a great deal of responsibility, as does the mayor. However, the leadership from the top should have been encouraging or forcing things early on when the safety and security of the United States is at stake. If you are the President and you see a governor doing something stupid, you should provide *leadership and public shame* not just allow it to happen.

 

[Mad Jack]

You're NOT advocating for a total shutdown? Despite the fact that coronavirus is spreading rapidly via asymptomatic carriers?

So Trump should have shutdown travel from China in December?

The virus will ultimately spread, that is inevitable. The best way to slow spread is by shutdowns of areas where spread has occurred. A total national shutdown would cripple the economy with marginal benefit in the long term versus local and regional shutdowns

 

[Mikkel]

The virus will ultimately spread, that is inevitable. The best way to slow spread is by shutdowns of areas where spread has occurred. A total national shutdown would cripple the economy with marginal benefit in the long term versus local and regional shutdowns

Right, so basically you're advocating for what Trump is doing right now and has been doing since coronavirus started in China in November.

 

[Mikkel]

Trump should have been quarantining all individuals coming into the country and telling cities they must shut down when cases arise or lose funding. Cuomo is a governor, he certainly shares a great deal of responsibility, as does the mayor. However, the leadership from the top should have been encouraging or forcing things early on when the safety and security of the United States is at stake. If you are the President and you see a governor doing something stupid, you should provide *leadership and public shame* not just allow it to happen.

Trump is a tyrant racist xenophobic islamophobic dictator using tyrannical power to destroy Democrat-run states' economies because he hates Democrats, even though coronavirus is not a big deal (which they said in New York City 3 weeks ago).

 

[needledox]

I'm blaming him for the depth and degree to which he has failed in prioritizing and containing the virus. He could have done things properly from the start as many other nations did and avoided the worst of this, and his poor leadership will have a body count. The Italian PM shares a great deal of blame in his own country's failure to contain the virus, and should also be held to account. The POTUS has the power to address public health crises, and he STILL HAS NOT USED SAID POWER. He has told states that he will take a back seat in the crisis, and will let them lead. That is not the role of the President in a national health crisis, he should be taking a strong and involved leadership position that gives clear and direct orders to the nation. To give you an idea, we had a damn national vaccine corps established for smallpox in short order that would forcibly vaccinate people, quarantine areas, and burned down the homes of the infected. He should have responded strongly and early, using powers that ONLY the president has, but he sat around doing nothing but falsely reassuring the public (many of whom still believe this is no big deal due to his early statements). He is not held to the standards of you and I, he is held to the standards of leadership expected of the greatest and most powerful nation in the world. He has failed utterly to show strong leadership or effective policy with regard to the issue. Furthermore his insistence that we all get back to work next month will likely have quite a toll in morbidity and mortality if followed, and has not been recommended by any reputable infectious disease expert anywhere in the world.

If he would listen to and follow the advice of experts, we would be in a much better place right now. He has a guide instructing him on EXACTLY WHAT TO DO IN THIS SITUATION. He has followed none of it. Had he followed expert advice and failed, that would be one thing. But he has just fumbled his way through this constantly, listening to nothing but his gut. A President should not be held to the same leadership standards of a damn high school quarterback.

“He has followed none of it”

All I can say is wow, listen to yourself

keep drinking the koolaide

 

[Mikkel]

They quarantined *people that had been exposed.* I would have called for *total quarantine of ALL individuals entering the United States* and total lockdown of ANY city with community spread immediately. This would not spare us, again. But it would buy us precious time to scale up manufacturing and stockpile supplies.

We don't have much domestic manufacturing to scale up since most of the production was based in China, which is what Trump has been trying to change since he entered office.

 

[vector2]

 

[needledox]

View attachment 300046

how cute, CNN our this together?

 

[Mikkel]

View attachment 300046

Things change. It's a novel virus.

 

[Mad Jack]

Right, so basically you're advocating for what Trump is doing right now and has been doing since coronavirus started in China in November.

No he hasn't. He never advocated a single city or state shutdown. He only instituted travel bans. Governors and mayors initiated the shutdowns. Are you not following the news or just willfully ignorant?

 

[crash2500]

Mark Cuban always a source of reason

#cubesforpresident

 

[Mad Jack]

Trump is a tyrant racist xenophobic islamophobic dictator using tyrannical power to destroy Democrat-run states' economies because he hates Democrats, even though coronavirus is not a big deal (which they said in New York City 3 weeks ago).

It doesn't matter what they say about him. He should have pushed for it because it was the right thing to do, and he should have been quarantining every single person entering the country. This is the time he *should be* using his power to its fullest extent, and pressuring people to do the things that will stop the virus. Instead, he advocated the exact opposite of best practice by allowing and encouraging business to continue as usual and watching things unfold rather than being proactive. What people are saying does not change the fact that he should be doing the appropriate things, which he has completely and utterly failed to do thus far

 

[Mad Jack]

“He has followed none of it”

All I can say is wow, listen to yourself

keep drinking the koolaide

He has not followed the playbook. That is a fact.

Trump team failed to follow NSC’s pandemic playbook

The 69-page document, finished in 2016, provided a step by step list of priorities – which were then ignored by the administration.

www.politico.com

It is a STEP BY STEP GUIDE. If not followed in the order presented it becomes worthless. He did not follow it, and that is a FACT.

 

[Mad Jack]

We don't have much domestic manufacturing to scale up since most of the production was based in China, which is what Trump has been trying to change since he entered office.

We have plenty of manufacturing capacity. We are still the second largest manufacturer in the world, with China manufacturing 20% of the world's output and us manufacturing 18% of it. We would have to shift the capacity over as was done in the Korean War using the Defense Production Act. The shift takes months, hence why the playbook prioritized PPE manufacturing and acquisition as one of the first steps in a pandemic. Had he started in January, we would already be pumping out supplies instead of right now where he has yet to order any factories to go into supply production of PPE.

This is time for Trump to be EXACTLY the kind of authoritarian the left fears, because that is the only way to get it done. He has powers and a playbook for EXACTLY THIS SCENARIO and he has failed to utilize them to the extent they must utilize. When the bodies start piling up, that is on him.

 

[needledox]

He has not followed the playbook. That is a fact.

Trump team failed to follow NSC’s pandemic playbook

The 69-page document, finished in 2016, provided a step by step list of priorities – which were then ignored by the administration.

www.politico.com

It is a STEP BY STEP GUIDE. If not followed in the order presented it becomes worthless. He did not follow it, and that is a FACT.

no no, he hasn’t followed one recommendation from advisors. That’s exactly what you meant. Don’t back track