Time to come clean: I just want to make $$$..!!

[dr.phoot]

Just for an example.

SABA and Ross have 40-50% drop out rate.

Some stories from the web:


This is right on the money!
Sounds like St. George’s University to me.

I am almost one year post-Grenada (doing my clinical rotations in the U.S.) and I still have recurring nightmares of failing out of SGU (with 200,000+ of debt).

I am one of the ‘lucky’ few who actually passed the first two years of school in Grenada, at SGU.

EVERY single one of my friends either:

a. Failed out
(some after repeating terms) (all carry huge amounts of burdensome debt, often financed through the US Federal Loan program)

b. Lost their minds
(two friends went to rehab for alcohol/drug use)
(six friends, probably a whole lot more, started antidepressants within the first year in Grenada)
(many friends had full blown meltdowns/psychotic breaks/personality changes in the first 2 years)

c. Lost their dream

more to come

Story from the web:

I want to fill you in on what really goes on behind the scenes at my medical school and maybe you can help inform other students about what happens here before they make a huge mistake. If students slip between the cracks of a US med school, then international med schools in the Caribbean may be the next choice. Some have better residency match rates than others so beware. Mind you, your choice of residency is skewed a bit coming down here, but again there are ways to work your way through internal medicine and find a fellowship of your choice, it is just a tougher and longer road.

My school allows 1000 students a year in on average at the start of each August class. They let in about 700 for the January starting class which are on different schedules and have a smaller lecture hall to accommodate a smaller class. My starting class began with 1100 students, we are down to 650, meaning 59 percent of my class that I started the first day here with are still here to finish off our second year. The class of 700, starting in January, finished with around 450, meaning about 64 percent of their class made it from day 1 to the last day of year 2. US med schools have about a 1-2% attrition rate, we have on average a 40% attrition rate. The problem I have with this is that our school allows students to take on 40K per semester of debt just to dismiss them after 4 or 5 semesters if they fall below an overall GPA below a 75% or having a final grade of below 70% in any one class. If a student does fall below either mark students may or may not be allowed to decel, which means repeating the failed class; however, this looks bad on a residency app and if one fails again they are almost certainly dismissed (rare exceptions).

So, why are so many students failing or dropping out?

1) Students are literally mashed into a lecture hall which seats 900 and there are over 1000 students that must click in for mandatory lecture which is 80% of all lectures. If one falls below 80% attendance they are automatically failed in the course. The stress of clicking in, finding a seat, and waiting in lines on a campus that can’t accommodate this many people is a reason for the students who drop out in the first few weeks, which my school has statistics on and they know this will happen after years of practicing the purposeful overcrowding. This is a business for profit medical school and profit definitely comes before the well being of any student.

2) The mandatory lectures are nearly pathetic. There are usually so many mistakes made by the inexperienced professors, the lecture becomes confusing and muddled. Students are used to having brilliant or at least decent professors. When they see the quality of tutelage and mix that with the stress and workload, the second round of students drop out by midterms.

3) There are not enough dorms on campus to house this many students.Our school placed a random selection of students in a motel 5 miles from campus. There were no laundry services, no ovens, and a shared floor bathroom. Some were disappointed about only having a hotplate and microwave to cook with. This added with the intense work load and adaptation into the pace of medical school is the third round of students to drop out.

After about a month the class will be down to 900 or so. These are the students who started something and are going to finish, even if it means living in a box.

With 900 students how did we get down to 650? They turn the heat up in term 2/3/4 and have a system of questions and statistics for each question they put on their tests so that they fall within the number of students they need to remain to hit their margins. If they need to cut down class size numbers, the heads of the departments are told to use a more difficult test bank by the Dean. Mind you, I’m very close with the head of several departments and we have discussed this for hours, and our disapproval of the methods they use to keep within their budget. We only have 600 positions open for clinical rotations so 50 more students will have to go this term in order to make the numbers right. The school has to have this 40 percent attrition rate to fund the paid positions for our clinical rotations in the US.

4) IMG’s [International Medical Graduates] have to score an avg. of 10 points higher on the step than a US med grad for an equal position in the US residency match. The avg. US step score is 224. We have to get a 230 usually just to get looked at. Another fact they purposely kept from us until our term 4. Why can’t anybody find the true numbers of this school online? They do not post them. If they did they wouldn’t have the demand they do now because if we were given all of the facts, some us would have chosen a field within health care that doesn’t require this amount of chance, debt, stress, and moral compromise.

5) Students who can not self study and teach themselves the material fail.Students at my school must teach themselves what they need to know. We are given a vague outline and need to get through the tests and STEP with high scores. We actively search for resources to help fill in the gaps our school leaves. About 30% of the class has headphones on during lecture listening to an outside source and just click in for the attendance question.

6) Emotional distress/burnout/sickness… This is the area that caught me off guard. I had a medical condition that required hospitalization. The staff is disconnected and said either repeat the term after you seek medical attention or just quit. My advisor told me to “just quit, it isn’t for everybody and it only gets harder.” (thank gawd I didn’t listen to her.) I was in shock and started crying like I never had before. All of that work for someone to tell you to “just quit.” I then went into a depression and felt numb. I luckily met you, Dr. Wible, and found out there were options for these feelings and that I was not alone in this process, med school can be hard…. The others that leave really do just get sick of the abuse and the stress and just zone out. The toughest part about them leaving after a few terms is that the debt has mounted and they have to start repaying their loans 6 months after they quit. It is kind of a vicious circle.

In my opinion I wouldn’t “recommend” my school to any of my friends or family. Im against what they stand for and do not believe in my school. They throw us all against the wall and whoever sticks gets to stay, whoever falls they leave behind. This is for money and I don’t believe it is good for humans to go through this type of abuse while in training to help others. The negative attitude predominates on campus, so I chose to live off campus with success driven students to escape it.

So why come here? TO BECOME A FREAKIN’ DOCTOR, THAT IS WHY!!!!!!!!! I remember studying homeless in the park for the MCAT with a head flashlight on. Now that Im in my last semester it seems all worth it. Every bit of it. There are waterfalls, beaches all over, fruit stands, rum shops, paddle boarding, night clubs, beautiful views at the campus, good people, and lots of fun to keep you sane while you’re putting in what is most likely the toughest two years of life. It is stressful but it is ALL ABOUT WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT!!!! If you want a 250 STEP 1 score you work for it. If you want to be a surgeon you work for it, if you want to serve the underserved, you guessed it, YOU WORK FOR IT!! I worked my tail off to get to this point and I feel accomplished now.

I feel like I can do the most good from this position. I could be a nurse, PA, NP, EMT, or any other health care provider but I want to make some changes in this world and this puts you in the driver seat to do so. My school is now helping out this term and they want to see the students who made it though their process succeed. They are smiling now and so are most students. It is sad to see friends that didn’t make it, but most of the ones that I know failed because they held onto a negative attitude, expected others to do the work for them, got into substance abuse and night life, or simply just didn’t want it bad enough to sacrifice everything for this dream.

The reason I don’t “recommend” it is because I believe students, friends, family should explore and exhaust every option before coming here. I rushed into it and wanted to get started ASAP and paid the price. But if this were my last option to becoming a physician I would still probably do it out of determination. So it can be done, there WILL be hardships, difficulties, confusion, fear, and stress. But if you work as hard as you can and make it through the process. If students do choose this route, they must prepare an emotional support team, an exercise plan for keeping body and mind healthy, and perhaps a mentor to help get adapted to the school.

Please publish my letter if you feel it will help others. And keep doing everything you do for medical students. Please. We need you.

this is exactly what I'm talking about! You YOURSELF, PERSONALLY have never set foot in a Carribean classroom. Yet, based on some nonsense some anonymous person wrote on the internet (which you didn't even cite / reference) you're so quick to draw the sword and draw conclusions and tell people not to go. FYI -- I've read similar posts about the field of podiatry too. But I bet you'll be so quick to start running at me with some biased stats on how the field of podiatry is x,y,z, and I shouldn't listen to something from the internet, right?

this would be totally different if you've actually been to the Carribs. But you haven't. You have not. You're just passing down what people have said even though you have no personal first hand knowledge of it yourself. Posts like this don't do anything for me, so it's ok. Just keep copying & pasting. It'll just go in one ear and come out the other.

Since you want to copy and paste stuff, care to copy and paste the name of the med school that Dr. Bennet Omalu attended? You know, the guy that the movie Concussion is based on?

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[dr.phoot]

You know what's kind of funny?

I know SO MANY people that have gone Caribbean or are there as we speak, from actual family, to friends from school, to random people I volunteered with. Atleast 18 people that I can think of right off the bat.

They are all doing great. A few of my cousins are residents already in IM and Gen. surg. I get facebook photos of my friends at SGU like weekly and the place looks super nice and everyone looks happy (could be a fake smile hahah). I'm pretty sure I have scribed for more Caribbean grad ER docs than American ones here in a pretty big CA hospital. lol

I follow all the med student and med school instagram accounts and I've gone down the rabbit hole looking at the tagged peoples' accounts, and then their friends accounts, etc. LMAO
All of the ones who went Caribbean matched last month, some I saw into pretty decent specialties (they had their NRMP accounts screenshotted).

I keep hearing negative things about it. But in the real world, I have NOT seen anything bad about it, nor do I know anyone who got screwed over. I know it's just anecdotal but still.

it's not as bad / doom & gloom as they make it out to be on here. My real concern isn't even the Carribeans / finding a residency. I'm just looking at: (1) hm... could I find another career where I'm guaranteed that $170k+ income & job security? (2) like 20 years into this field will I snap, lose it, get into midlife crisis? Because as you all already know, my heart's not really into this field like that. I'm only in it for the money, prestige, and job security. That's about it. I don't subscribe to the whole helping people thing because I don't think that's really the case. people have to help themselves. I don't see how you can help someone if they're just going to go home and continue bad dietary habbits. Not sure how you can help someone when medications all have side effects, surgeries come with complications, etc. So I don't think this field is "helping people" in that way. I'm just going to be professional and treat it like an accountant crunching #s, an engineer doing calculations, etc. BUT again, I cannot stress this enough: I plan on being absolutely professional, moral, and ethical! NO cutting corners, b/s--ing billing codes etc. I believe in clean, honest, good money from hardwork. I"m just not buying the whole I'm helping the sick, unless of course I was working for free in an underserved area / area where there's no one else to help out. It's just another day @ the office for me.

 

[dr.phoot]

Half of current US physicians are foreign grads. Most of the ones I know actually are including the ones in my family. That’s changing quickly.

Carribean really isn’t worth it with 300-400k loans and a FM/IM salary either.

I have a friend at SGU that’s actually doing well and made it into the second year but absolutely hates it. I know another that dropped out first year. Everything is dying if you sit here and search forums enough. My friend in graduating pharm on 1.5 weeks from a newer pharm school and got a job in his super small hometown no problem. I don’t really know any people of any of those professions that are unemployed in person. But that’s just my 2 cents

FM/IM can make some serious bank, depending on the area. And I mean serious bank 200+

I'm wondering if the army scholarship / undeserved community financial programs even extends to the Carribs. I'll put in a good 5-7 years in a low-income area in exchange for my loans being wiped out

 

[de Ribas]

Half of current US physicians are foreign grads.

Please check your sources. This is wrong. Actually, it is about 25%.

 

[de Ribas]

this is exactly what I'm talking about! You YOURSELF, PERSONALLY have never set foot in a Carribean classroom. Yet, based on some nonsense some anonymous person wrote on the internet (which you didn't even cite / reference) you're so quick to draw the sword and draw conclusions and tell people not to go. FYI -- I've read similar posts about the field of podiatry too. But I bet you'll be so quick to start running at me with some biased stats on how the field of podiatry is x,y,z, and I shouldn't listen to something from the internet, right?

this would be totally different if you've actually been to the Carribs. But you haven't. You have not. You're just passing down what people have said even though you have no personal first hand knowledge of it yourself. Posts like this don't do anything for me, so it's ok. Just keep copying & pasting. It'll just go in one ear and come out the other.

Since you want to copy and paste stuff, care to copy and paste the name of the med school that Dr. Bennet Omalu attended? You know, the guy that the movie Concussion is based on?

Do as you please. Good luck.

 

[med2345]

Please check your sources. This is wrong. Actually, it is about 25%.

My source was not counting DOs only MDs which was different. Either way to the OP I can promise you if you don’t think podiatry is worth is carribean in much worse. Even my friend who’s a second year regrets going and he’s doing well. He talks about why he didn’t look into DO more or retake the Mcat, or explored pod. But it’s your choice.

Also 2 of the 3 major got destroyed by the hurricanes last year. SGU was out of he way but one is holding classes on a boat, and the other somewhere in the U.K. last time I heard from a family friend. Sounds like a pain to me not even talking about the education itself but just trying to inform you

 

[podlyfe95]

Dude. Your not going to make it through carribbean medical school . Point blank. Period. You do not have what it takes to survive medical school , pod school , optometry school, pa school, etc .... you know why I know this .... it’s because you have no real drive . If you did you would have had better undergrad grades and even retakes but you managed to fail that also. The reason why people advise against Caribbean is because you have to work 10 x as harder as a normal med student just to stay in and even find residency . Yes there are plenty of success stories but also plenty of failures .

Why people don’t think it’s good idea to do Caribbean is because you have a sub 2.0 gpa ( maybe slightly above I forget) and barely took the mcat. I read somewhere your scores I have been in the 480s. Now your in a masters program that is not even science based and don’t even want to try a post bacc or retake classes. You have no serious work ethic. What makes you think that all of sudden you will magically do well in medical school. I think you know this too high is why you are posting on the forums. You just want to convince yourself that you are making the right choice which you are not. You have not proven to anyone that you have what it takes to pass classes let alone the step. And even if you did the chances of getting residency is low especially with the md/do merger.

Everyone who commented on this thread are being nice because if you even dare post this on the pre med section they would rip you a new one. I too considered careibbean and I have family , friends and mentors who have been there and we’re successful, but they all advised me against going this route . You need to reconsider your choices . And if you do go to Caribbean I hope you have a plan b for when you fail out .

 

[footpainhealer]

Carribean really isn’t worth it with 300-400k loans and a FM/IM salary either.

In all fairness, the expected COA I got from my school for 2018-2019 said $330K-350K if you live not at your parents house and 290K if you live at home during pod school. Now I know you're not supposed to actually take that much money out but still.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Here's the problem with what you wrote:

- I listen to your advice and I "spend some time reading this forum", I'll also come to the conclusion that (a) podiatry isn't worth it, (b) pharm is dead, (c) optomet is dead, (d) pathology is dead / dying, (e) dentistry is getting hit by big Corp takeovers, (f) anesthesia is dying, (g) no 4.0. No med sch

Catch my drift? This forum isn't a place you read and mke decisions based off of what you read on here! So therefore can't make any cases against the Carribeans based on what I read here. For every 10 people on here that tells you don't go Carribs, 10 of them have never even gone to school there. Don't believe? EVERY. SINGLE. USER. in this thread saying No has never set foot in a classroom in the island. If im wrong, please you know yourselves, come out and just tell me otherwise. Starting with you @smurfeyD

In essence you're just reciting something you heard from somwhere and have no first hand knowledge about. Like a salesman selling a product he doesn't believe in / doesn't even own himself.

Vs.

In real life, I perosnally work with 2 docs with attended foriegn schools, not even Carribeans -- Africa! And are constantly getting "chased" with well-paying job offers. Sure they're primary care docs but they're sure as hell in really high demand! That cant be said for podiatry though.

Then how about looking at the numbers... sure people say dental is dying, but 99% still have a job and don’t miss loan payments. Sure people say DO sucks but their placement rate is high. How about those Caribbean numbers? Yeah... atrocious. If you had a history of commitment I’d say go for it. But you don’t. Like I said, you couldn’t commit a few months to the mcat, you failed out your post bacc classes. You have no drive or commitment at all. You really think you’re gonna last 7 years of grinding it out? I don’t, based on your history. But do what you want.

 

[GypsyHummus]

To be fair, of all the Pods that I have ever known, I only know of 1 who makes under 100K/year, and I personally dont know them (they are forum members). I have personally met a Pod who was offered 60K/year, but they turned that offer down in favor of another contract that paid mid six figures.

I dont know any residency trained pods that are out of work.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

To be fair, of all the Pods that I have ever known, I only know of 1 who makes under 100K/year, and I personally dont know them (they are forum members). I have personally met a Pod who was offered 60K/year, but they turned that offer down in favor of another contract that paid mid six figures.

I dont know any residency trained pods that are out of work.

That’s what I am saying. It’s different to hear opinionated responses on the fields not being the same vs statistical figures that show 60% of Imgs match.

Also so everyone is aware FMGs and IMGs are different. FMGs are people not from the US who trained in their home countries and want to become US physicians. They have to do a residency to do so. These FMGs are actually highly respected and sought after (as long as they can communicate in English) because in some foreign countries their curriculum and the competitiveness to get into the schools are more grueling than here, resulting in the fact that these are very capable and intelligent people. However IMGs are not respected and not sought after unless it’s a lower tier residency. IMGs are Americans who went overseas because they couldn’t get into a program here. And PDs know this. So while a lot of practicing doctors are foreign, most are FMGs (the dude from concussion) and not IMGs.

 

[skim25]

@dr.phoot Please bear in mind that my comment is not trying to be mean/aggressive towards you.

You should stop pointing fingers at everyone in this forum like a toddler, trying to blame them for giving you some insight/advice of your situation you didn't want to hear.

You made some interesting recent posts that I want to address (this might be a little long):

1) you keep mentioning how since we never attended caribbean med school, we have no idea what we are talking about. I can't speak for everyone here, but it's true for me. I have thought about applying to a couple, but after looking at the stats of getting a residency, I ruled it out. So I might not have personal experience, but I don't think you attended a caribbean med school either, so what makes your word better than everyone here? I personally know a couple of friends trying out caribbean schools. One decided to drop out and went to pod school. 2 of them are currently enrolled and are doing fine, but who knows if they will match (hopefully they do).

2) You mentioned that you would rather go to caribbean school than doing a masters program and trying to get into med school in the states , since it's not a 100% guarantee. However, what makes you think you will 100% get into a caribbean school? Sure, they tend to have pretty low stats, but it's not 100% sure. What makes you think you will get a residency? What are your plans if you don't get into a residency?

3) you keep belittling other professions and think MD/DO is the way to go. Plenty of people here have told you professions that can make a lot of money if you tried hard enough, but you keep insisting that if you can directly go to a med school, you would not have to work as hard/take as much time getting the salary you want. No matter what profession, it will take you time (and money). Stop wrapping your head around loans/debt. Having loans from pursuing a medical profession is like white on rice: it comes with the territory (unless you got them scholarships/ways to decrease the amount of $).

4) what is the point of going to a medical profession when you don't like helping people? You don't have to be the "holier than thou" kind of person, but you will end up miserable for a job you don't want to do. I mean, I've seen some patients and if I didn't like helping them out, then I would be incredibly unhappy with my choices. It's great that you want to be "ethical" in the med field, but treating like an accountant? You are in the wrong field.

Honestly, I hope you get in and become successful in all of your endeavors. I'm sure everyone here wishes it as well in their own way. The odds are against you with your stats and motivation, but hey, you never know. Good luck!

 

[Osminog]

The administrators at the American University of Antigua (AUA) have wet dreams every night about gullible, impulsive people like you, OP. When they receive your application, they're going to think, "Ahh, it's like stealing candy from a baby."

You have a track record of academic failure, and you have no genuine interest in the health sciences; you are in it for flashy cars and designer clothes. If you go to the Caribbean for medical school, you will fail your classes and you will fail the board exams. You will return to the US with nothing but an extra heap of debt and an unexplainable gap in the resume, and you will wish that you had listened to those ignorant fools on SDN... because as ignorant and foolish as they were, they accurately predicted your fate.

Anyway, have fun in the Caribbean. Don't forget to bring your sunscreen.

 

[Weirdy]

The administrators at the American University of Antigua (AUA) have wet dreams every night about gullible, impulsive people like you, OP. When they receive your application, they're going to think, "Ahh, it's like stealing candy from a baby."

You have a track record of academic failure, and you have no genuine interest in the health sciences; you are in it for flashy cars and designer clothes. If you go to the Caribbean for medical school, you will fail your classes and you will fail the board exams. You will return to the US with nothing but an extra heap of debt and an unexplainable gap in the resume, and you will wish that you had listened to those ignorant fools on SDN... because as ignorant and foolish as they were, they accurately predicted your fate.

Anyway, have fun in the Caribbean. Don't forget to bring your sunscreen.

Chill out.
We've given him enough flak.

This thread in general is done.
If comments like yours persist, mods should shut it down.

 

[Osminog]

Chill out.
We've given him enough flak.

This thread in general is done.
If comments like yours persist, mods should shut it down.

I'm not "giving flak" to anyone. I'm offering a stern warning about the consequences of a financially suicidal decision.

Do a search on ValueMD to find posts by Caribbean flunk-outs. Many of these people are facing massive debt, broken relationships with spouses and parents, and dubious professional prospects. Ask these people if they wish someone "gave them flak" for what ended up being the worst decision of their lives, and then get back to me.

 

[Weirdy]

I'm not "giving flak" to anyone. I'm offering a stern warning about the consequences of a financially suicidal decision.

Do a search on ValueMD to find posts by Caribbean flunk-outs. Many of these people are facing massive debt, broken relationships with spouses and parents, and dubious professional prospects. Ask these people if they wish someone "gave them flak" for what ended up being the worst decision of their lives, and then get back to me.

You are reiterating something everyone on this post has warned OP about.

It is a topic SDN loves to beat to the ground because it gets likes and is accurate.

No one here is debating the quality of Carribean med.

I am asking you to not kick OP while they are already down.
We have already asked them not to go Carribean.

Sometimes it is not what you say, but how you say it.

 

[En3rgy]

@dr.phoot, The reason many people are telling you not to go to the Caribbean is because you haven't demonstrated consistent academic success during your undergraduate years. You have also not shown that you possess a strong work ethic and the necessary study skills required to succeed on the MCAT. You need to demonstrate you can succeed in undergraduate classes and on standardized exams before enrolling in a professional program.

It doesn't matter whether there are successful Caribbean graduates out there. You need to focus on yourself. Be introspective. Do you have what it takes to succeed in a professional program? Are you willing to make the necessary sacrifices required for success? Are you willing to re-invent yourself? Will you focus and study for long periods of time, on a consistent basis? Take some time to reflect on how you can improve as a student. Talk to a learning skills adviser and a counselor. Talk to professionals working in a variety of health care fields.

There are many professions out there that will compensate you well and ensure excellent job security. Please don't make an impulsive decision and enroll in a Caribbean program without considering all of your options. There is no need to rush things. With the right motivation, you can make it in any health care field if you work hard and remain patient.

 

[IDontHaveAnyFeet]

I'm not "giving flak" to anyone. I'm offering a stern warning about the consequences of a financially suicidal decision.

Do a search on ValueMD to find posts by Caribbean flunk-outs. Many of these people are facing massive debt, broken relationships with spouses and parents, and dubious professional prospects. Ask these people if they wish someone "gave them flak" for what ended up being the worst decision of their lives, and then get back to me.

I agree with you. Giving flak is sometimes what is needed to make someone make the right choice/ avoid making the wrong one.
The Caribbean is a festival of crushed dreams and manipulated numbers.
They will do everything in their power to only report numbers that work in their favor and discount members of their population.

@dr.phoot, The reason many people are telling you not to go to the Caribbean is because you haven't demonstrated consistent academic success during your undergraduate years. You have also not shown that you possess a strong work ethic and the necessary study skills required to succeed on the MCAT. You need to demonstrate you can succeed in undergraduate classes and on standardized exams before enrolling in a professional program.

It doesn't matter whether there are successful Caribbean graduates out there. You need to focus on yourself. Be introspective. Do you have what it takes to succeed in a professional program? Are you willing to make the necessary sacrifices required for success? Are you willing to re-invent yourself? Will you focus and study for long periods of time, on a consistent basis? Take some time to reflect on how you can improve as a student. Talk to a learning skills adviser and a counselor. Talk to professionals working in a variety of health care fields.

There are many professions out there that will compensate you well and ensure excellent job security. Please don't make an impulsive decision and enroll in a Caribbean program without considering all of your options. There is no need to rush things. With the right motivation, you can make it in any health care field if you work hard and remain patient.

Premeds go neurotic sometimes and its hard to convince them otherwise.

 

[600701]

I'm pretty sure this is like 90% of people. hahah
It's just taboo to talk about it for some reason.

However, I think you're being a little too optimistic on your desires. Can you buy a used Carrera S for like 70k on pod salary......sure.
Can you buy that, AND a rolex, AND a $600 shoe.....no.

Don't even think about buying ANYTHING you mentioned BRAND NEW. You will most likely NOT be able to afford a 120K car at all unless you get a 144-month loan. hahah. Used rolex's or breitlings, etc are doable though even on 100k a year.

Oh. And don't forget you need a roof over your head. And depending on where you live, that mortgage or rent could be HUGE!!!!!!!!!! (SF, LA, NYC,MIA)

I don't want to be that guy but..... thinking like this won't get you anywhere. @dr.phoot you can have and accomplish anything, buy brand new everything as well. Don't let this mediocre mentally kill your dreams. Be smart and plan out your goal.

Update: do not go to Carribean school and DO apply for pod school don't give up
a lot of this dudes don't know $hit. The only time when failure is guaranteed is when you don't even try.

 

[dr.phoot]

Don't make the same mistake that I did.

Back when I was a teenager, I decided I wanted to be a doctor, but I think what I really decided was that I wanted to be wealthy. Besides the obvious lack of foresight of allowing 16 year old MaxillofacialMN to make career decisions for 29-60 year old MaxillofacialMN, this was an incredibly misguided decision. If you are going into medicine because science/medicine/altruism genuinely interests you, this post is not for you. If you want to be a doctor to become wealthy, DO NOT DO IT.

I graduated college with decent stats (3.5 GPA, chemistry degree, 31 MCAT, etc), and got accepted to pod school for 2013. I had family, friends, and a girlfriend that I left behind in Minnesota, and started at DMU. It sucked, big time. Medical school is probably exciting and cool if you like anatomy, disease, and learning, but if you are just interested in dollars, it will be the worst experience of your life. You will keep telling yourself that the $$ are just 6.5 short years away, and then your life will be great. Except, it won't. Sure you'll be making a ton of money with some letters behind your name, but you'll also be saddled with over $200k of debt hitting you with insane amounts of interest payments monthly. Maybe you'll be married at this point (if you found time to love between rotations), and you want to buy a house. Good luck with no money. You will probably end up buying a house anyways that is commensurable to your salary (not net worth, because all your fellow physicians have big, luxurious houses, not to mention cars, vacations, etc), and you'll be saddled with even more debt and structured payments. This is not financial independence.

I was really afraid to leave podiatry school, because I thought my prospects elsewhere were dismal. I looked at average salary for a bachelors degree, and it was depressing. I based all my forecasting off this number, and it had my net worth breaking even around age 42, and then DPM skyrocketed past into the many millions of dollars. But then I realized something important, that you should realize too. I wasn't average. I was in medical school. I could do great things with my life! At the end of my first year, I took the plunge; I withdrew from school.

Since leaving school, I got married , bought a house, and am net worth positive. I am in consulting, and my wife is in sales. Our combined income is ~$170k. If we keep this up, we will be worth a million dollars before my wife is 30 years old - the same age some of you will potentially be finishing your residencies strapped with $200+k of debt. Not only am I far better off financially by leaving school, but I have so much more freedom. We travel all the time - in the last year we've gone to Paris, Mexico, and this weekend we're taking a roadtrip to meet some friends. We get weekends off, we see our families regularly.

I don't want to encourage anyone who is genuinely interested in medicine to stop pursing it, but for those of you in it for the money, don't. It's not worth it.

nearly cried today (re)reading this for like the 50th time. the bold especially is the part that really gets to me the most. I can relate to this so much, minus the podiatry school acceptance part.

I have a big job opportunity coming up (*fingers crossed*), & I'm also just 3 semesters away from my masters! I'll start studying for the certification exam for my field pretty soon because I'm eligible to sit for the exam when I enter my last semester of the program. If all goes well and according to plan, by the time @bobtheweazel or at the very latest @Weirdy 's class is done with pod school and begin their residency, I should have most of, if not all, my student loans paid off and enough experience by then to be at a well-paying management / director position. not to mention I can leverage my credentials and strong background into alternative much higher-paying fields.

I went to take the mcat last week. bear in mind, I had registered months prior and forgot to cancel / get a refund so I decided what the heck. I arrived about 15 minutes late. All the other kids had already started their exam. I did all the registration and everything and started the test around 8:20 and I left at 8:50. yeah... I took the entire mcat in 30 minutes. that's because I just guessed on every question and walked out of there. that was the final nail in the coffin for me. I didn't give a f*** enough to even find the motivation to give things one last shot. deep down, I would have been very miserable in a clinical medical job. I've seen really disgusting things of late and I have to be honest I can't believe I convinced myself that I wanted to a podiatrist and actually get my hands dirty touching some of these things.

for all intents & purposes, I am officially done with the pursuit of a career in medicine! I am still working in the field of healthcare though...........

good luck to you all! thanks for all the advice & suggestions; i took nothing here personal

 

[de Ribas]

deep down, I would have been very miserable in a clinical medical job. I've seen really disgusting things of late and I have to be honest I can't believe I convinced myself that I wanted to a podiatrist and actually get my hands dirty touching some of these things.

Medicine is not for everyone, especially podiatry. It is good that you can be honest with yourself and realize that you might like something more than medicine. In fact it is better to realize that now, rather than getting in debt and quitting it halfway or after graduation.

If all goes well and according to plan, by the time @bobtheweazel or at the very latest @Weirdy 's class is done with pod school and begin their residency, I should have most of, if not all, my student loans paid off and enough experience by then to be at a well-paying management / director position.

Life is not a race. Some people go to med school after 40, while other become billionaires in their mid 20s. People have unique goals and life situations.

I arrived about 15 minutes late. All the other kids had already started their exam.

I took the entire mcat in 30 minutes. that's because I just guessed on every question and walked out of there. that was the final nail in the coffin for me. I didn't give a f*** enough to even find the motivation to give things one last shot.

I may sound a little harsh. I am sorry. But honestly, I doubt that you will get there sooner then bobtheweazel or Weirdy because of lack of motivation.

I wish you luck in your new endeavors.

 

[Weirdy]

Hope it works out @dr.phoot

Feel free to pm me. Hope you get that time off to travel like maxillofacialMN does.

I didn't appreciate the free time I had and the mobility it gave me to enjoy life til after school started.

Realized residency and work would only take up more time.

 

[Yazo]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'd love to enter any kind of medical field (MD, DO, DPM) even if it paid $40K a year. If you don't like what you do and you only show up for the paycheck, you're going to hate every day of work for the next 45 years. If you enjoy what you do, then you'll have fun every day until you retire.

 

[Weirdy]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'd love to enter any kind of medical field (MD, DO, DPM) even if it paid $40K a year. If you don't like what you do and you only show up for the paycheck, you're going to hate every day of work for the next 45 years. If you enjoy what you do, then you'll have fun every day until you retire.

Work is work.

No matter how much you like it, if you do it for long enough it wears your enthusiasm out.

Find a career that's bearable and pays you well enough to get home and spend that time and money on things that matter.

 

[Yazo]

Work is work.

No matter how much you like it, if you do it for long enough it wears your enthusiasm out.

Find a career that's bearable and pays you well enough to get home and spend that time and money on things that matter.

That's also true!

I see that you're a podiatry student. What do you think about the schooling? Any tips for a first time applicant? I will be applying this cycle and I'm really excited.

 

[Weirdy]

That's also true!

I see that you're a podiatry student. What do you think about the schooling? Any tips for a first time applicant? I will be applying this cycle and I'm really excited.

Keep a cool head and take the time to know the good and bad about podiatry.

If you can show admissions why you want in- despite knowing both sides of the story, there's no reason for them not to take you.

Keep an open mind to different programs. A program you might have your heart set on might actually rank lower on your list after you visit them and get a feel for the students, vicinity, and staff. A program you've heard rumors about may end up being your favorite.

When the time comes, go with your gut.

Ask yourself- which program gives me the highest chance of success? Which program makes it the easiest for me to maintain high grades and still have a decent work/life balance?

The schooling is top notch. It is a medical education. Make no mistake about that.

 

[Yazo]

Keep a cool head and take the time to know the good and bad about podiatry.

If you can show admissions why you want in- despite knowing both sides of the story, there's no reason for them not to take you.

Keep an open mind to different programs. A program you might have your heart set on might actually rank lower on your list after you visit them and get a feel for the students, vicinity, and staff. A program you've heard rumors about may end up being your favorite.

When the time comes, go with your gut.

Ask yourself- which program gives me the highest chance of success? Which program makes it the easiest for me to maintain high grades and still have a decent work/life balance?

The schooling is top notch. It is a medical education. Make no mistake about that.

Thanks so much for posting! I have a ~3.86 cGPA and a ~3.80 sGPA and I plan to take the MCAT in late August before I apply for DPM programs in October. As long as I get 490-500, do you think I have a decent chance at being admitted?

Standardized tests have always been my weakness and I'm very worried about how I'll do.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

Thanks so much for posting! I have a ~3.86 cGPA and a ~3.80 sGPA and I plan to take the MCAT in late August before I apply for DPM programs in October. As long as I get 490-500, do you think I have a decent chance at being admitted?

Standardized tests have always been my weakness and I'm very worried about how I'll do.

Post under what are my chances to this thread can be closed.

@dr.phoot Good luck to you; keep rocking them suits!

 

[MedicineN'Jazz]

nearly cried today (re)reading this for like the 50th time. the bold especially is the part that really gets to me the most. I can relate to this so much, minus the podiatry school acceptance part.

I have a big job opportunity coming up (*fingers crossed*), & I'm also just 3 semesters away from my masters! I'll start studying for the certification exam for my field pretty soon because I'm eligible to sit for the exam when I enter my last semester of the program. If all goes well and according to plan, by the time @bobtheweazel or at the very latest @Weirdy 's class is done with pod school and begin their residency, I should have most of, if not all, my student loans paid off and enough experience by then to be at a well-paying management / director position. not to mention I can leverage my credentials and strong background into alternative much higher-paying fields.

I went to take the mcat last week. bear in mind, I had registered months prior and forgot to cancel / get a refund so I decided what the heck. I arrived about 15 minutes late. All the other kids had already started their exam. I did all the registration and everything and started the test around 8:20 and I left at 8:50. yeah... I took the entire mcat in 30 minutes. that's because I just guessed on every question and walked out of there. that was the final nail in the coffin for me. I didn't give a f*** enough to even find the motivation to give things one last shot. deep down, I would have been very miserable in a clinical medical job. I've seen really disgusting things of late and I have to be honest I can't believe I convinced myself that I wanted to a podiatrist and actually get my hands dirty touching some of these things.

for all intents & purposes, I am officially done with the pursuit of a career in medicine! I am still working in the field of healthcare though...........

good luck to you all! thanks for all the advice & suggestions; i took nothing here personal

Aww Im actually sad to hear this. Good luck on your future endeavors!

 

[footpainhealer]

I was browsing reddit and searching it for podiatry posts.

I came across this guy that literally ONLY bashes podiatry on every post he makes (except for maybe 2). It seems he made his account to go on every pod post and talk crap. I thought it was kind of funny and you guys might enjoy reading his crap if you're bored lol.

XBFart (u/XBFart) - Reddit

 

[GypsyHummus]

The user makes some important points. Why arnt credits transferrable if I decide on going to another healthcare field? NP, PAs and General Practitioners can do all the non surgical stuff a DPM can do. This isnt the case for DDS (although OD certainly has midlevel competition as well). Tuition for school is atrocious, there is not reason to go into 300K of debt to be anything.

Pods cant do anything but be pods is an argument Im ambivalent on. One the one hand, dentists and optometrists face this same problem and dont seem to have issue, but their training is only 4 years. Pods is 7. Does pod training need to be 7, why not 4?

The poster did not mention the wins Podiatry is making however. Its at a snails pace, but podiatry is getting better each year.

The profession is far from perfect, and there is a long way to go. The recent crop of students however will make or break the profession.

I was browsing reddit and searching it for podiatry posts.

I came across this guy that literally ONLY bashes podiatry on every post he makes (except for maybe 2). It seems he made his account to go on every pod post and talk crap. I thought it was kind of funny and you guys might enjoy reading his crap if you're bored lol.

XBFart (u/XBFart) - Reddit

 

[de Ribas]

I was browsing reddit and searching it for podiatry posts.

I came across this guy that literally ONLY bashes podiatry on every post he makes (except for maybe 2). It seems he made his account to go on every pod post and talk crap. I thought it was kind of funny and you guys might enjoy reading his crap if you're bored lol.

XBFart (u/XBFart) - Reddit

who is he? pre-med?

 

[Dochopeful13]

The user makes some important points. Why arnt credits transferrable if I decide on going to another healthcare field? NP, PAs and General Practitioners can do all the non surgical stuff a DPM can do. This isnt the case for DDS (although OD certainly has midlevel competition as well). Tuition for school is atrocious, there is not reason to go into 300K of debt to be anything.

Pods cant do anything but be pods is an argument Im ambivalent on. One the one hand, dentists and optometrists face this same problem and dont seem to have issue, but their training is only 4 years. Pods is 7. Does pod training need to be 7, why not 4?

The poster did not mention the wins Podiatry is making however. Its at a snails pace, but podiatry is getting better each year.

The profession is far from perfect, and there is a long way to go. The recent crop of students however will make or break the profession.

Do you think future pods should be worried that pa,np, and other docs can do the non surgical stuff?

 

[outofstep]

who is he? pre-med?

In one of those posts he mentioned that he went the MD route. He’s probably still just an MD student.

 

[Yazo]

I was browsing reddit and searching it for podiatry posts.

I came across this guy that literally ONLY bashes podiatry on every post he makes (except for maybe 2). It seems he made his account to go on every pod post and talk crap. I thought it was kind of funny and you guys might enjoy reading his crap if you're bored lol.

XBFart (u/XBFart) - Reddit

I'd take his posts with a grain of salt. In one of them he recommends that people should go to a Caribbean MD school rather than a US DPM school. Either he doesn't really know what he's talking about or he's just salty about podiatrists for some reason.

For example, I'm an EU citizen and can easily be admitted to one of the MD programs in Europe and come back here, but I'd rather become an RN here instead because of how difficult it is to be admitted as an IMG.

There's always going to be competition between different medical professions, but you'll still be able to find a job and make money as a podiatrist. I've never heard of an unemployed podiatrist!

 

[footpainhealer]

who is he? pre-med?

He claims to be an actual physician. Not even a resident, but an actual attending. He said he did a 7 year residency, but I don't really believe him. If he had said 6 years, I could see him being an F/A ortho, and would understand his crap-talking a little more. I can only think of neurosurg residency lasting that long and I don't get why he would ever even cross paths with a podiatrist, so his anger seems a bit fake.

 

[GypsyHummus]

I think ALL docs, with the exception of dedicated surgical specialities (gen surg, Ortho, ENT, etc) should be worried about NPs and PAs taking nonsurgical stuff from docs.

Do you think future pods should be worried that pa,np, and other docs can do the non surgical stuff?

 

[Yazo]

I think ALL docs, with the exception of dedicated surgical specialities (gen surg, Ortho, ENT, etc) should be worried about NPs and PAs taking nonsurgical stuff from docs.

Do you think there is a reason to worry about not being able to find a job as a podiatrist?

 

[UIO1098]

Do you think there is a reason to worry about not being able to find a job as a podiatrist?

I think only 1 podiatrist out of NYCPM defaulted on their loan in 2014. So, no. You should keep an eye out for practice owners who will offer you the salary a 25 year old PA would take...

 

[GypsyHummus]

Agree with the above post. If someone is offering you a total package of 100k or less, it’s time to find anouther job. That is PA money.

With the skill set pods are trained in, there is no reason a Pod couldn’t make 150-220k gross. Alas, some people have geographical constrains, and will take these less than optimal conditions.

Podiatry jobs from my understanding, at this time, are quite plentiful, they are just poor contracts as associate podiatrists. It’s not like pharmacy or optometry where saturation has hit the market and nobody can find a job.

Also, while PAs and NPs can do nonsurgical foot stuff, will they? Pods do the stuff other doctors didn’t want to do/ historically neglected, hence the separate school. Maybe PAs will want more procedures, but the “eww feet” mentality is prevalent among many people.

Do you think there is a reason to worry about not being able to find a job as a podiatrist?

 

[de Ribas]

All these posts about PAs and NPs being able to do pods job. It doesn't mean they actually would do it. They don't like feet and would rather do something else.

 

[med2345]

I find it absurd that pre-meds think overlaps in medicine don’t exist or is bothersome. It’s in basically every branch to some extent.

 

[Dochopeful13]

I find it absurd that pre-meds think overlaps in medicine don’t exist or is bothersome. It’s in basically every branch to some extent.

Your right. However, I look at it at through an economical standpoint. Ortho groups and multi speciality groups I would imagine would rather pay $90,000 to an NP then $200,000 to a DPM. Surgical stuff can be handled by ortho. I hope I am way off base because I really like podiatry. However, this scares me. With that said I know nothing and I’m just lowly pre med.

 

[UIO1098]

Your right. However, I look at it at through an economical standpoint. Ortho groups and multi speciality groups I would imagine would rather pay $90,000 to an NP then $200,000 to a DPM. Surgical stuff can be handled by ortho. I hope I am way off base because I really like podiatry. However, this scares me. With that said I know nothing and I’m just lowly pre med.

That ortho groups is hiring a DPM to handle surgery of the foot and ankle as well as palliative care. Btw, 200k without some kind of bonus structure is a little low for an ortho group tbh.

 

[Dochopeful13]

That ortho groups is hiring a DPM to handle surgery of the foot and ankle as well as palliative care. Btw, 200k without some kind of bonus structure is a little low for an ortho group tbh.

So my logic is way off you would say? I hope it is because I really like podiatry. Ortho pays a lot more than $200?

 

[de Ribas]

Your right. However, I look at it at through an economical standpoint. Ortho groups and multi speciality groups I would imagine would rather pay $90,000 to an NP then $200,000 to a DPM. Surgical stuff can be handled by ortho. I hope I am way off base because I really like podiatry. However, this scares me. With that said I know nothing and I’m just lowly pre med.

I might be wrong, but I would guess that NPs who would do procedural work would want to pay higher than regular FNPs. I would guess that orthos would be ready to pay more to pods just to make sure that the job is done well. Most NPs work like FNPs and would hate to work on feet.

 

[de Ribas]

I would imagine would rather pay $90,000 to an NP

In my state, NPs start 100K+. (1 hospital network states that right on their site). They would rather work in ICU, any hospital floor, or clinic just seeing primary care patients then get 90K for working on feet.

 

[UIO1098]

So my logic is way off you would say? I hope it is because I really like podiatry. Ortho pays a lot more than $200?

MGMA median is 270k, which is what healthcare administrators use to determine salary. However, in an ortho group, you are in a business. If you have an empty clinic, your salary will be lower. The opposite is true. The reason you hear about 80-120k salaries is because those grads are either: getting exploited, going to a low volume clinic, or working for a practice with too much overhead.

 

[Dochopeful13]

In my state, NPs start 100K+. (1 hospital network states that right on their site). They would rather work in ICU, any hospital floor, or clinic just seeing primary care patients then get 90K for working on feet.

I hope your right. So you don’t thinks pods have any need to worry?

 

[GypsyHummus]

The best and brightest of every profession will never really have to worry.

Solid Ortho contracts can pay up to 400K realistically.

Ortho group contracts are around the top 5-10% of positions available in podiatry though, its not a realistic goal for a majority of pods graduating. Much more realistic upper tier is Hospital or Multi specialty work.

Hospitals are finding Podiatry makes them lots of money, as pods refer out alot and use other hospital services the hospital can bill for (Xrays, Physical Therapy, diabetic refferals, etc.). 5 years ago, it was almost unheard of for a podiatrist to be hospital employed, now it is becoming more common.

If you are not a strong student, what is more likley is youre going to work as an associate in a private pod practice making 130-150K/year doing bread and butter with the occasional forefoot surgery.

You could also open up your own practice, much like a dentist would and then set your own salary

So my logic is way off you would say? I hope it is because I really like podiatry. Ortho pays a lot more than $200?