Is this a viable option?


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Okay, so this is more of a question. If you go into a DO school and (God forbid) you don't get into the specialty you want, couldn't you just switch specialties after practicing a few years or during/after your residency?? Yes, I know that residents don't get paid much (around 50,000 which is the average household income in the U.S., pretty good) and i know they may work a lot. But, wow couldn't you get into pretty much any specialty? Does anyone know how hard it would be for, say a family medicine D.O. to get into a neurosurgery residency or cardiothoracic surgery, etc.?? I am curious and I'm sure others would be as well.
 

Goro

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My understanding is it's really hard. I'll let our wise resident colleagues field this one.

@Psai?
@SouthernSurgeon ?
@mimelim?

It's almost like going from one PhD field to another, not merely one post-doc to another.


Okay, so this is more of a question. If you go into a DO school and (God forbid) you don't get into the specialty you want, couldn't you just switch specialties after practicing a few years or during/after your residency?? Yes, I know that residents don't get paid much (around 50,000 which is the average household income in the U.S., pretty good) and i know they may work a lot. But, wow couldn't you get into pretty much any specialty? Does anyone know how hard it would be for, say a family medicine D.O. to get into a neurosurgery residency or cardiothoracic surgery, etc.?? I am curious and I'm sure others would be as well.
 
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parpar2222

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Is it possible to get into a neurology or pulmonology residency program as a D.O.? Let's say you do extremely well in med school and score high enough for both the USMLE and COMPLEX, will they give you a chance still? One of my biggest fears is not being able to do a specific residency program just for the sole fact I chose the D.O. route :/
 

NoTownPreMed

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Since we're on this subject, does the difficulty also apply to those who want to switch IM subspecialties?
 

AnatomyGrey12

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Since we're on this subject, does the difficulty also apply to those who want to switch IM subspecialties?
You have to go back to school, go back to fellow pay, and yes it is very difficult.
Is it possible to get into a neurology or pulmonology residency program as a D.O.? Let's say you do extremely well in med school and score high enough for both the USMLE and COMPLEX, will they give you a chance still? One of my biggest fears is not being able to do a specific residency program just for the sole fact I chose the D.O. route :/
Neurology is very possible, a pulmonology residency is impossible because pulmonology is an IM subspecialty. Most specialties outside of surgical subs and the super competative specialties like Derm and rad Onc are fairly reasonable for DOs. Go to the school you get into and don't look back
 

parpar2222

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You have to go back to school, go back to fellow pay, and yes it is very difficult.


Neurology is very possible, a pulmonology residency is impossible because pulmonology is an IM subspecialty. Most specialties outside of surgical subs and the super competative specialties like Derm and rad Onc are fairly reasonable for DOs. Go to the school you get into and don't look back

so there's like no chance of pulmonology as a D.O. cause it's an IM subspecialty? They only give preference to MDs?
 

GBCrzzyy

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so there's like no chance of pulmonology as a D.O. cause it's an IM subspecialty? They only give preference to MDs?
I think what he means is you have to start from IM in the beginning then go directly to the fellowship. Not from FM to IM then Pulm
 

ananasmed

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so there's like no chance of pulmonology as a D.O. cause it's an IM subspecialty? They only give preference to MDs?
Pulmonology is a fellowship done after internal medicine residency. Internal medicine is certainly possible for DOs, but fellowships vary in terms of competitiveness (for both MDs and DOs). Some fellowships may be out of reach depending on where you do your residency, what the job market is like at the time, etc.
 
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KYmedic33

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I work with a DO who is a pulmonary fellow and she is very good. She went to a "middle tier" osteopathic medical school (I hate to rank them, but it's relatively new and notorious for family medicine )

We work at a big university teaching hospital, too. It's definitely not impossible you just have to know what you want and work damn hard for it... Just like anything else in life!


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AnatomyGrey12

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so there's like no chance of pulmonology as a D.O. cause it's an IM subspecialty? They only give preference to MDs?
No I meant that pulmonology residency is impossible because it doesn't exist. Most IM subs are possible if you get into a decent IM program. Even GI and Cards are possible if you are smart with where you match and aim for a solid mid-tier program
 

gergles

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No I meant that pulmonology residency is impossible because it doesn't exist. Most IM subs are possible if you get into a decent IM program. Even GI and Cards are possible if you are smart with where you match and aim for a solid mid-tier program
So a quick follow-up if you don't mind. Assuming you complete said solid mid-tier program as a DO are you on equal footing with MD counterparts when it comes to applying to fellowships?

On the fellowship applicant level what variables play into making you a more competitive applicant?
 

IslandStyle808

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So a quick follow-up if you don't mind. Assuming you complete said solid mid-tier program as a DO are you on equal footing with MD counterparts when it comes to applying to fellowships?

On the fellowship applicant level what variables play into making you a more competitive applicant?
From what I have seen of fellowship matches, you are correct. Once you come from an ACGME residency program, whether MD or DO, you will be judged pretty much the same.

Example 1:
http://www.massgeneral.org/children/doctors/doctor.aspx?id=18326 (very few DOs even get a residency here, did his fellowship here)

Example 2:
https://www.ttuhsc.edu/som/anesthesiology/fellowship/current.aspx (highly competitive pain fellowship)

As to the second questions, cannot really comment on it. From what I have read, a lot of it comes from the excellent job you do, evaluations, and research in specific field you want to do your fellowship in.
 
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I know a DO (grew up with him) who's doing GI now. Impossible...no. Difficult, perhaps. I heard from some physicians that the stigma is real. One of my friends is doing an internal med residency now and he is already running into some challenges. He's really stressed the hell out.
 

sp4k

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You have to go back to school, go back to fellow pay, and yes it is very difficult.


Neurology is very possible, a pulmonology residency is impossible because pulmonology is an IM subspecialty. Most specialties outside of surgical subs and the super competative specialties like Derm and rad Onc are fairly reasonable for DOs. Go to the school you get into and don't look back
Even though there's some stigma I find it difficult to believe that certain residencies (neurosurgery, ortho, etc) are impossible to score as a DO... As long as you work hard and set realistic goals you should be fine.
 

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Is it possible to get into a neurology or pulmonology residency program as a D.O.? Let's say you do extremely well in med school and score high enough for both the USMLE and COMPLEX, will they give you a chance still? One of my biggest fears is not being able to do a specific residency program just for the sole fact I chose the D.O. route :/
Neurology isn't very competitive. Pulm is more difficult, as your strength will depend on getting into a decent IM program, which is more difficult as a DO.
 
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Even though there's some stigma I find it difficult to believe that certain residencies (neurosurgery, ortho, etc) are impossible to score as a DO... As long as you work hard and set realistic goals you should be fine.
I think it's more of a combination of good USMLE scores, connections, and nailing interviews.
 

IslandStyle808

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Even though there's some stigma I find it difficult to believe that certain residencies (neurosurgery, ortho, etc) are impossible to score as a DO... As long as you work hard and set realistic goals you should be fine.
It's not that you cannot do it, it is just that you are shut out of a lot of programs. For example, lets look at neurosurgery. There aren't a lot on the DO side, but a lot more on the MD side. However, the problem is that not very many PDs even look at DO students. To add insult to injury, they are more likely to look at a caribbean graduate (not true for the majority of fields that look at a DO over a caribbean graduate).

2014 NRMP Program Director survey
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PD-Survey-Report-2014.pdf

Neurological Surgery pg. 55

96% interview and rank US MD
26% interview and rank DOs
40% interview and rank US IMGs

It is not just tough, it is insanely hard because there are 74% of NS programs that don't even look at your app! I am not even getting into the whole MD (USMLE) = DO (USMLE + 10) aspect yet...

Hardwork is not enough, you have to be lucky and smart about how you apply. Even then it is a long shot.
 

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Obviously I have no personal experience, but from working directly with residents and attending etc. it seems that if a field is competitive it's literally competitive for everyone. I can't comment on how hard it will be with a DO as I'm about to start the process but if it makes you feel any better, you're not the first DO to pursue any of this. Others have done it and was successful so...it's not completely 0% chance of ever happening. Good luck with whatever your decision is.
 

sp4k

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It's not that you cannot do it, it is just that you are shut out of a lot of programs. For example, lets look at neurosurgery. There aren't a lot on the DO side, but a lot more on the MD side. However, the problem is that not very many PDs even look at DO students. To add insult to injury, they are more likely to look at a caribbean graduate (not true for the majority of fields that look at a DO over a caribbean graduate).

2014 NRMP Program Director survey
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PD-Survey-Report-2014.pdf

Neurological Surgery pg. 55

96% interview and rank US MD
26% interview and rank DOs
40% interview and rank US IMGs

It is not just tough, it is insanely hard because there are 74% of NS programs that don't even look at your app! I am not even getting into the whole MD (USMLE) = DO (USMLE + 10) aspect yet...

Hardwork is not enough, you have to be lucky and smart about how you apply. Even then it is a long shot.
Mhmm ok, the numbers don't lie. This really is just unnecessary politics. I shadowed a DO radiologist the other day, the guy was amazing.
 

IslandStyle808

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Mhmm ok, the numbers don't lie. This really is just unnecessary politics. I shadowed a DO radiologist the other day, the guy was amazing.
It is what it is. The PDs choose who to put into their programs. They have filters they use to filter out DO and caribbean applicants (so if you have a USMLE of 260 as a DO, they won't see it). This is why hard work doesn't always over come bias.

Radiology is not that difficult to match as a DO, you will be totally fine. However, if you are aiming for a top program, it is impossible currently for a DO.

All programs are different in their views of DOs. The most DO friendly field is probably PM&R. Nearly every top program has DOs. Just the way it is.
 

sp4k

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It is what it is. The PDs choose who to put into their programs. They have filters they use to filter out DO and caribbean applicants (so if you have a USMLE of 260 as a DO, they won't see it). This is why hard work doesn't always over come bias.

Radiology is not that difficult to match as a DO, you will be totally fine. However, if you are aiming for a top program, it is impossible currently for a DO.

All programs are different in their views of DOs. The most DO friendly field is probably PM&R. Nearly every top program has DOs. Just the way it is.
My dream is, in fact, neurosurgery. I hope my PhD in pharmacology and neuroscience will help when the time comes.
 

IslandStyle808

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My dream is, in fact, neurosurgery. I hope my PhD in pharmacology and neuroscience will help when the time comes.
I highly, highly recommend getting into an MD school. This is one of those fields where matching is insanely hard.

https://apps.acgme.org/ads/Public/Programs/Search?stateId=&specialtyId=35&city=

So I searched the ACGME site for the amount of programs. There are currently 108, and if you are filtered out of 74% of programs, this means you have a shot at around 30 ACGME programs. There are currently around 12 AOA programs, and I am not sure how many of them will survive post merger. So I would say you have 30-40 programs to apply to. For a DO, this is very difficult odds (you don't even know which ACGME programs are anti-DO).

I wish you luck on your endeavors none the less.
 

sp4k

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I highly, highly recommend getting into an MD school. This is one of those fields where matching is insanely hard.

https://apps.acgme.org/ads/Public/Programs/Search?stateId=&specialtyId=35&city=

So I searched the ACGME site for the amount of programs. There are currently 108, and if you are filtered out of 74% of programs, this means you have a shot at around 30 ACGME programs. There are currently around 12 AOA programs, and I am not sure how many of them will survive post merger. So I would say you have 30-40 programs to apply to. For a DO, this is very difficult odds (you don't even know which ACGME programs are anti-DO).

I wish you luck on your endeavors none the less.
Thank you. I'll take what I get (MD or DO) and just go from there.
 
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No.

While people have switched fields and gone back for a second residency, it is extremely uncommon.

It is also MORE uncommon to go back and do a second residency in a more competitive field. Having completed an FM residency won't make you somehow magically more competitive for a neurosurgery residency. In fact quite the opposite.

Your best chance at any residency is as a freshly applying M4. Your odds go down every year from there.

@SouthernSurgeon Thanks for the reply! Wow, so pretty much if you can't get into the (competitive) specialty you want during medical school then there's nothing you can do.. That's scary
 

NoTownPreMed

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@SouthernSurgeon Thanks for the reply! Wow, so pretty much if you can't get into the (competitive) specialty you want during medical school then there's nothing you can do.. That's scary
Yep, that's the harsh reality of medicine. On a positive light, most of us have yet to matriculate and go through the grueling process. Best we can do is aim high and don't look back.
 

Goro

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Of all of my grads who have gone into ACGME residencies, about 2% have gone into Neuro, so it's doable, but hard. These were some of my top students. We've never sent someone into Pulmonary, but after they do their IM stint, they may have gone to subspecialty/fellowship.

For whatever it's worth, we send tons of people into IM.


Is it possible to get into a neurology or pulmonology residency program as a D.O.? Let's say you do extremely well in med school and score high enough for both the USMLE and COMPLEX, will they give you a chance still? One of my biggest fears is not being able to do a specific residency program just for the sole fact I chose the D.O. route :/
 

the argus

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So a quick follow-up if you don't mind. Assuming you complete said solid mid-tier program as a DO are you on equal footing with MD counterparts when it comes to applying to fellowships?

On the fellowship applicant level what variables play into making you a more competitive applicant?
From what I have seen of fellowship matches, you are correct. Once you come from an ACGME residency program, whether MD or DO, you will be judged pretty much the same.

Example 1:
http://www.massgeneral.org/children/doctors/doctor.aspx?id=18326 (very few DOs even get a residency here, did his fellowship here)

Example 2:
https://www.ttuhsc.edu/som/anesthesiology/fellowship/current.aspx (highly competitive pain fellowship)

As to the second questions, cannot really comment on it. From what I have read, a lot of it comes from the excellent job you do, evaluations, and research in specific field you want to do your fellowship in.
This isn't really correct. Yes, getting into a good residency program certainly helps when applying for fellowship, but the stigma still exists. Many fellowship PDs have the same biases against DOs/US-IMGs as residency PDs. It is probably less so than when applying to residency, but you're kidding yourself if you think where you went to medical school doesn't matter when applying for fellowships.
 
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Of all of my grads who have gone into ACGME residencies, about 2% have gone into Neuro, so it's doable, but hard. These were some of my top students. We've never sent someone into Pulmonary, but after they do their IM stint, they may have gone to subspecialty/fellowship.

For whatever it's worth, we send tons of people into IM.
So would it be fairly easy to get into an MD IM residency as a DO with decent scores?


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IslandStyle808

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This isn't really correct. Yes, getting into a good residency program certainly helps when applying for fellowship, but the stigma still exists. Many fellowship PDs have the same biases against DOs/US-IMGs as residency PDs. It is probably less so than when applying to residency, but you're kidding yourself if you think where you went to medical school doesn't matter when applying for fellowships.
I was probably over stepping by stating it that way, there most likely is a small bias. Looking at the fellowship matches, it still diminishes a great deal (I say this whether DO or caribbean). What holds both DO students and caribbean students back is where they match for residency. The hard part is figuring out what part of it is the caliber of the residency or whether it is the degree.
 
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Goro

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the argus

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So would it be fairly easy to get into an MD IM residency as a DO with decent scores?


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Any ACGME IM program? Sure, there's lots of community IM programs without high standards. A good, university program that sets you up well for fellowship? "Fairly easy" is not the term I would use.

There are a few top tier ACGME IM programs that are DO friendly (University of Washington comes to mind), but for the most part DOs are limited to low and some mid-tier programs. Most university programs will set you up for your specialty of choice assuming you are a good resident and are willing to apply broadly for fellowship. Applying from community programs gets more tricky, especially for the more competitive subspecialties. There are some very well regarded community programs with great fellowship match lists. There are also some community programs where the chief residents struggle to match.
 
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Any ACGME IM program? Sure, there's lots of community IM programs without high standards. A good, university program that sets you up well for fellowship? "Fairly easy" is not the term I would use.

There are a few top tier ACGME IM programs that are DO friendly (University of Washington comes to mind), but for the most part DOs are limited to low and some mid-tier programs. Most university programs will set you up for your specialty of choice assuming you are a good resident and are willing to apply broadly for fellowship. Applying from community programs gets more tricky, especially for the more competitive subspecialties. There are some very well regarded community programs with great fellowship match lists. There are also some community programs where the chief residents struggle to match.
The only IM subspecialties I find extremely interesting are ID, critical care and maybe Immunology or oncology


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To be honest, it seems that the competitive specialties are seemingly "out of reach" in part because most DOs applying to competitive specialties in ACGME are also going to be probably applying AOA, which means that the applicants are basically sucked out of the ACGME match as soon as they match AOA, as far as I know. There are DOs that have recently matched Orthopedic Surgery at Cleveland Clinic, which is up there with Hospital for Special Surgery and Mayo, and I know Mayo has taken DOs in the past. I don't think most DOs applying to competitive specialties have the confidence to stick with just ACGME, and that sucks because they have no choice but to do AOA as well... and AOA isn't a true "backup plan" - once you match AOA, just get screwed out of the ACGME match even if you would have matched... someone else can confirm, but that is what I think.
 
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the argus

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To be honest, it seems that the competitive specialties are seemingly "out of reach" in part because most DOs applying to competitive specialties in ACGME are also going to be probably applying AOA, which means that the applicants are basically sucked out of the ACGME match as soon as they match AOA, as far as I know. There are DOs that have recently matched Orthopedic Surgery at Cleveland Clinic, which is up there with Hospital for Special Surgery and Mayo, and I know Mayo has taken DOs in the past. I don't think most DOs applying to competitive specialties have the confidence to stick with just ACGME, and that sucks because they have no choice but to do AOA as well... and AOA isn't a true "backup plan" - once you match AOA, just get screwed out of the ACGME match even if you would have matched... someone else can confirm, but that is what I think.
No one is going to confirm this because it's not true. The number of AOA positions in competitive specialties is minimal compared to the number of DO grads. 33 anesthesia, 13 neurosurg, 121 ortho, 19 ENT, 22 urology, 16 ophtho, 56 derm. This is out of ~5,400 DO grads in 2016.

The reason DOs don't match into competitive ACGME residencies is because, despite the nonsense pushed by certain people on SDN, DOs are considered second class applicants in the ACGME match. Plain and simple. Basically everyone goes to DO schools because they can't get into USMD schools. Whether fair or not, pedigree matters in medicine.
 

parpar2222

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No one is going to confirm this because it's not true. The number of AOA positions in competitive specialties is minimal compared to the number of DO grads. 33 anesthesia, 13 neurosurg, 121 ortho, 19 ENT, 22 urology, 16 ophtho, 56 derm. This is out of ~5,400 DO grads in 2016.

The reason DOs don't match into competitive ACGME residencies is because, despite the nonsense pushed by certain people on SDN, DOs are considered second class applicants in the ACGME match. Plain and simple. Basically everyone goes to DO schools because they can't get into USMD schools. Whether fair or not, pedigree matters in medicine.
"Pedigree matters in medicine" ouch :/



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No one is going to confirm this because it's not true. The number of AOA positions in competitive specialties is minimal compared to the number of DO grads. 33 anesthesia, 13 neurosurg, 121 ortho, 19 ENT, 22 urology, 16 ophtho, 56 derm. This is out of ~5,400 DO grads in 2016.

The reason DOs don't match into competitive ACGME residencies is because, despite the nonsense pushed by certain people on SDN, DOs are considered second class applicants in the ACGME match. Plain and simple. Basically everyone goes to DO schools because they can't get into USMD schools. Whether fair or not, pedigree matters in medicine.

what a load of inaccurate crap
 

AnatomyGrey12

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"Pedigree matters in medicine" ouch :/



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Pedigree matters applying to residency and academic medicine. The vast majority of physicians, community docs, don't give two farts. They care how good you are treating patients.

No one is going to confirm this because it's not true. The number of AOA positions in competitive specialties is minimal compared to the number of DO grads. 33 anesthesia, 13 neurosurg, 121 ortho, 19 ENT, 22 urology, 16 ophtho, 56 derm. This is out of ~5,400 DO grads in 2016.

The reason DOs don't match into competitive ACGME residencies is because, despite the nonsense pushed by certain people on SDN, DOs are considered second class applicants in the ACGME match. Plain and simple. Basically everyone goes to DO schools because they can't get into USMD schools. Whether fair or not, pedigree matters in medicine.
But it is true. With the merger we will see more DOs matching at higher programs because the great DO applicants can rank their lists as they please. The ceiling will be higher. The floor will also be lower for the bottom students but that isn't part of this discussion.

The reason the majority of DOs don't match into these competative specialties is because the average DO doesn't have the application required for those specialties. The ones that do actually tend to match well.

This isn't even getting into the fact that a large majority of DO students come into med school knowing they want to do FM/general IM/Peds. A lot of DO students don't really want super competative specialties.

DOs, and IMGs like me, are considered second class applicants in the ACGME match. Plain and simple. Basically everyone goes to DO schools, and Carib schools like me, because they can't get into USMD schools
FTFY
 

sab3156

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No one is going to confirm this because it's not true. The number of AOA positions in competitive specialties is minimal compared to the number of DO grads. 33 anesthesia, 13 neurosurg, 121 ortho, 19 ENT, 22 urology, 16 ophtho, 56 derm. This is out of ~5,400 DO grads in 2016.

The reason DOs don't match into competitive ACGME residencies is because, despite the nonsense pushed by certain people on SDN, DOs are considered second class applicants in the ACGME match. Plain and simple. Basically everyone goes to DO schools because they can't get into USMD schools. Whether fair or not, pedigree matters in medicine.
Well, that's why I said "in part". All I'm saying is that there are probably more DOs that CAN get into these residency programs, but they don't because of the AOA situation, where you get pulled once matched. Also, many DOs opt to not apply to the competitive specialties. Of course, some programs just won't look at DOs. But some top tier ones do, and have matched DOs.
 

the argus

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"Pedigree matters in medicine" ouch :/



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Why ouch? What's controversial about this statement? I hope I'm not blowing your mind when I say that when applying to residency people from Harvard or Hopkins are treated differently than people from Temple or Jefferson, who are treated differently than people from Touro, LECOM, or the caribbean schools, who are treated differently than people from India.
what a load of inaccurate crap
What's so inaccurate about it? I mean I realize that as a pre-MS1 you are probably an expert on applying to residency, so please enlighten me about what I said that was false?
Pedigree matters applying to residency and academic medicine. The vast majority of physicians, community docs, don't give two farts. They care how good you are treating patients.
sure, but this is a thread about applying to residency...
You do this like you've solved some big mystery. I'm pretty upfront about my history, not sure what you were trying to do except somehow make fun of me. Sweet burn bro, sweet burn.

But yes, as I've said a gazillion times on this forum, DOs and US-IMGs have much more similar outcomes in ACGME residency placements than DOs and USMDs.
 
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Carribean students always try to m
Why ouch? What's controversial about this statement? I hope I'm not blowing your mind when I say that when applying to residency people from Harvard or Hopkins are treated differently than people from Temple or Jefferson, who are treated differently than people from Touro, LECOM, or the caribbean schools, who are treated differently than people from India.

What's so inaccurate about it? I mean I realize that as a pre-MS1 you are probably an expert on applying to residency, so please enlighten me about what I said that was false?
sure, but this is a thread about applying to residency...
You do this like you've solved some big mystery. I'm pretty upfront about my history, not sure what you were trying to do except somehow make fun of me. Sweet burn bro, sweet burn.

But yes, as I've said a gazillion times on this forum, DOs and US-IMGs have much more similar outcomes in ACGME residency placements than DOs and USMDs.

DO placement rate is around 99.6 percent, could you remind us what the US-IMG rate is?

Lol.
 

the argus

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Carribean students always try to m



DO placement rate is around 99.6 percent, could you remind us what the US-IMG rate is?

Lol.
The tribalism you display is quite ridiculous, especially seeing as you haven't even started medical school yet. You didn't answer my question about what I said that was "inaccurate crap," you just tried to change the subject. You seem to be under the impression I am somehow dissing DOs. I'm not. I think DOs make great physicians. I just think people reading this forum might want actual information, rather than the "informed" ramblings of anonymous premeds.
 

velodork

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I know someone who went from EM to peds to (pediatric) anesthesia. Hes super happy in his career but it was definitely the long road.
 

DrBowtie

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Carribean students always try to m



DO placement rate is around 99.6 percent, could you remind us what the US-IMG rate is?

Lol.
FWIW, placement rate is an absolute useless metric. If 100% of the class fails to match, then all scramble into dead end surgery prelim positions, that is a 100% placement rate even though the school should really be shut down.
 
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FWIW, placement rate is an absolute useless metric. If 100% of the class fails to match, then all scramble into dead end surgery prelim positions, that is a 100% placement rate even though the school should really be shut down.
we both know that isn't a practical or feasible scenario but take any metric you want and DO>>>>>>>>>>>>>>IMG
 
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DrBowtie

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we both know that isn't a practical or feasible scenario but take any metric you want and DO>>>>>>>>>>>>>>IMG
Sure but it's a stupid stat to say I told you so with. Placement rate doesn't really mean anything useful about competitive advantages, especially with the current system of AOA only backups.
 
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Sure but it's a stupid stat to say I told you so with. Placement rate doesn't really mean anything useful about competitive advantages, especially with the current system of AOA only backups.
It's definitely not a stupid stat and it certainly does mean alot. Don't over reach friend :)
 

DrBowtie

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It's definitely not a stupid stat and it certainly does mean alot. Don't over reach friend :)
One of us has been through the match and is on the selection committee for a residency program. Your problem is that you don't know that you don't know what you're talking about.