UF vs UM vs Einstein for Neuro

[trevithick]

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Hey everybody,

sorry to add to the pool of vs threads, but I have a few applications that are still open, and I wanted to get input. Im very interested in neurology/neuroscience, and want to do research in med school. My end goal is to be an academic MD, and towards that end Im torn between UF and UM, both schools with very strong neuro programs. UM has a branch of the Mcknight Center, the National Parkinsons Foundation, and of course Bascom Palmer. UF also has a very large Brain Center, and they have dedicated research tracks for MDs. I also have a late EInstein interview coming up, but Im a little hesitant about Einstein because of the cost of attendance. Any thoughts?

 

[drizzt3117]

If I had to choose between those two schools I'd probably pick UM because of the curriculum at UF and the environment. That's a pretty late interview for Einstein, will you even hear the results before May 15?

 

[ksmi117]

Moving to the School Specific Discussions forum.

 

[amine2086]

Hey everybody,

sorry to add to the pool of vs threads, but I have a few applications that are still open, and I wanted to get input. Im very interested in neurology/neuroscience, and want to do research in med school. My end goal is to be an academic MD, and towards that end Im torn between UF and UM, both schools with very strong neuro programs. UM has a branch of the Mcknight Center, the National Parkinsons Foundation, and of course Bascom Palmer. UF also has a very large Brain Center, and they have dedicated research tracks for MDs. I also have a late EInstein interview coming up, but Im a little hesitant about Einstein because of the cost of attendance. Any thoughts?

I have interviewed at Einstein and was very impressed by their research offerings. Einstein is nationally recognized as one of the research powerhouses. So if you are interested in research I think you will have more opportunities at Einstein compared to UF or UM. I am currently trying to decide between Einstein and few of other schools and one of things that is holding me back from committing to Einstein is the location. I am not sure if I want to spend next four years of my life in Morris Park/Bronx.

 

[drizzt3117]

I have interviewed at Einstein and was very impressed by their research offerings. Einstein is nationally recognized as one of the research powerhouses. So if you are interested in research I think you will have more opportunities at Einstein compared to UF or UM. I am currently trying to decide between Einstein and few of other schools and one of things that is holding me back from committing to Einstein is the location. I am not sure if I want to spend next four years of my life in Morris Park/Bronx.

Take a look at this file:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/fnclxk

What constitutes a school as a "research powerhouse" in your opinion? Yes, AECOM is in the NIH top 40 (barely) but I'm not sure it qualifies as a research powerhouse. In the neuroscience area (neurology, neuroscience, neurosurgery), AE and Miami both have about 13 million in funding, Florida has about 4.5.

 

[mdeast]

I'd go UM. Nicer weather, cheaper tuition, good program, interesting patient populations. You're from FL and will probably? want to end up there anyway.

I don't think Einstein is a bad school in any way...it does have decent research opportunities and good clinical training. Of the 14 schools I interviewed at, som of them ranked well below Einstein (Jeff, Temple for instance), but I still put Einstein at the absolute bottom of my list.

The Bronx is not NYC. It is the bronx. Geographically isolated from Manhattan, without a close subway stop. It's 45 minutes to get into the city. By bus. Nothing could compel me to live there for 4 years if I didn't have other options. But, that's just me. To each his own.

As for neuro...there's neuro research at each place. Find PIs you're interested in, and contact them to see if they take on med students. You should be concerned about residency programs much more than med school programs in this regard.

 

[amine2086]

Take a look at this file:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/fnclxk

What constitutes a school as a "research powerhouse" in your opinion? Yes, AECOM is in the NIH top 40 (barely) but I'm not sure it qualifies as a research powerhouse. In the neuroscience area (neurology, neuroscience, neurosurgery), AE and Miami both have about 13 million in funding, Florida has about 4.5.

I agree with you, calling a school a "research powerhouse" really is a personal opinion. In my opinion, Einstein is very recognized among medical community for doing outstanding research. UF and UM are not as recognized, again in my opinion.

 

[amine2086]

I'd go UM. Nicer weather, cheaper tuition, good program, interesting patient populations. You're from FL and will probably? want to end up there anyway.

I don't think Einstein is a bad school in any way...it does have decent research opportunities and good clinical training. Of the 14 schools I interviewed at, som of them ranked well below Einstein (Jeff, Temple for instance), but I still put Einstein at the absolute bottom of my list.

The Bronx is not NYC. It is the bronx. Geographically isolated from Manhattan, without a close subway stop. It's 45 minutes to get into the city. By bus. Nothing could compel me to live there for 4 years if I didn't have other options. But, that's just me. To each his own.

As for neuro...there's neuro research at each place. Find PIs you're interested in, and contact them to see if they take on med students. You should be concerned about residency programs much more than med school programs in this regard.

To each his own. I was invited for interview at couple of these schools (Temple, Jeff, EVMS) and decided not to go after acceptance at few schools including AECOM.

 

[dingyibvs]

I agree with you, calling a school a "research powerhouse" really is a personal opinion. In my opinion, Einstein is very recognized among medical community for doing outstanding research. UF and UM are not as recognized, again in my opinion.

Lol, how can something like research prowess be personal opinion? You either produce results or you don't, and generally it's related to the amount of money you get since nobody's gonna pay you if you don't produce.

 

[drizzt3117]

I personally think that AECOM does have some nice opportunities for students, is in NYC, and gives you good exposure to a diverse patient population. That said, AE is NOT really nationally recognized as a powerhouse in research, which is what I was trying to say in a nicer way before. To be fair, neither are UM or UF.

As far as my opinion of the school, I dropped off a withdrawal letter at admissions at the end of my interview day a couple cycles ago and it was my first interview.

 

[amine2086]

Lol, how can something like research prowess be personal opinion? You either produce results or you don't, and generally it's related to the amount of money you get since nobody's gonna pay you if you don't produce.

I am not sure what about the statement that you found to be funny. It's not only about getting money to do search but also doing outstanding research. For example, schools A and B can get same amount of research money but school A may be more recognized for being able to utilize the money better. Being able to utlize the money better may lead to more recognition which may lead to school A being called a "research powerhouse". What you call a "research powerhouse" is your opinion which is not always based on statistics.

 

[drizzt3117]

I am not sure what about the statement that you found to be funny. It's not only about getting money to do search but also doing outstanding research. For example, schools A and B can get same amount of research money but school A may be more recognized for being able to utilize the money better. Being able to utlize the money better may lead to more recognition which may lead to school A being called a "research powerhouse". What you call a "research powerhouse" is your opinion which is not always based on statistics.

Research discoveries bring in funding for your school, that's the whole point of them. Since their research is so "significant" name one lab/department that's considered world class at AE that anyone would have heard of.

 

[BBender716]

Really quick, other than if you knew more about the institution itself, how did anyone know if UM was Michigan/Minnesota/Miami? Did I just miss it? 😕

 

[trevithick]

Hey, sorry for not making it clear, UM is Miami, as everyone pretty much inferred. Im just curious if anyone has any specific knowledge about the neuro opportunities at the two schools. I know as people have said that some of my questions are more pertinent to residency, but I really would like to get some good experience in med school. Im not really looking at overall research rankings so much as whats available in the neuro depts. Also, as a whole how do the two institutions stack up.

 

[drizzt3117]

Hey, sorry for not making it clear, UM is Miami, as everyone pretty much inferred. Im just curious if anyone has any specific knowledge about the neuro opportunities at the two schools. I know as people have said that some of my questions are more pertinent to residency, but I really would like to get some good experience in med school. Im not really looking at overall research rankings so much as whats available in the neuro depts. Also, as a whole how do the two institutions stack up.

I already replied to your post. My NIR sources tell me that UM is more neurosurg then interventional focused at this point in time if that matters.

 

[jbz24]

For what it's worth, Einstein actually does decent research. They pull in more NIH funding than NYU does. Also, they have good clinical training at Montefiore (although not sure if it's the main site, but it's excellent for residency). The biggest turnoff is, as other people mentioned, the location. Not that it's in a terrible part of the Bronx, but when people think of NYC, they envision Manhattan. It's so far isolated from Manhattan that it's not realistic to travel to Manhattan frequently. I'm sure some people commute from Manhattan, but...I wouldn't want to.

I don't know how it is for neuro specifically, however.

 

[dw2158]

Really quick, other than if you knew more about the institution itself, how did anyone know if UM was Michigan/Minnesota/Miami? Did I just miss it? 😕

i've always heard miami referred to as UM or the U. michigan is michigan. and minnesota is university of minnesota. that's just me though-- originally from florida, grew up in the northeast.

FWIW, i'd say go to the U, 'cause brooklyn and dingy are going there so it must be awesome 😛

 

[amine2086]

Research discoveries bring in funding for your school, that's the whole point of them. Since their research is so "significant" name one lab/department that's considered world class at AE that anyone would have heard of.

Yes, it is a cycle. So did the chicken come first or the egg. Who cares? Just because you did not like a school couple years back, does not make it bad. If you want to know more about research at Einstein use wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_einstein_college_of_medicine). I am not even sure why I am defending Einstein as I am thinking about going to my state school to start with. But I do stand by my point that Einstein is a more well known research school compared to UF or UM.

 

[DoctwoB]

Yes, it is a cycle. So did the chicken come first or the egg. Who cares? Just because you did not like a school couple years back, does not make it bad. If you want to know more about research at Einstein use wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_einstein_college_of_medicine). I am not even sure why I am defending Einstein as I am thinking about going to my state school to start with. But I do stand by my point that Einstein is a more well known research school compared to UF or UM.

Einstein is also a very good deal (for a private school), partly due to its undesirable (in my opinion) location.

They quote their COA as 66k, but that assumes 900/month rent and 500/month board. Einstein's housing is actually more like 400/month, and anybody can eat on 300/month, which would bring costs to 60k. I don't know how much UF or UM are, but thats pretty close to what some of the UCs cost (~51k).

 

[dingyibvs]

i've always heard miami referred to as UM or the U. michigan is michigan. and minnesota is university of minnesota. that's just me though-- originally from florida, grew up in the northeast.

FWIW, i'd say go to the U, 'cause brooklyn and dingy are going there so it must be awesome 😛

Oh yea, I really needn't to waste my breath

Yes, it is a cycle. So did the chicken come first or the egg. Who cares? Just because you did not like a school couple years back, does not make it bad. If you want to know more about research at Einstein use wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_einstein_college_of_medicine). I am not even sure why I am defending Einstein as I am thinking about going to my state school to start with. But I do stand by my point that Einstein is a more well known research school compared to UF or UM.

You could certainly make that argument, but your labeling of AECOM as a "research powerhouse" implied that it was on another level compared to UF or UM, which we tried to argue that it isn't the case.

 

[RSAgator]

It will make no difference. There will be neuro research opportunities at any of the three schools.

 

[drizzt3117]

For what it's worth, Einstein actually does decent research. They pull in more NIH funding than NYU does. Also, they have good clinical training at Montefiore (although not sure if it's the main site, but it's excellent for residency). The biggest turnoff is, as other people mentioned, the location. Not that it's in a terrible part of the Bronx, but when people think of NYC, they envision Manhattan. It's so far isolated from Manhattan that it's not realistic to travel to Manhattan frequently. I'm sure some people commute from Manhattan, but...I wouldn't want to.

I don't know how it is for neuro specifically, however.

I think ae is a decent school, I just think calling them a research powerhouse is ridiculous. What's the bar now?

 

[jbz24]

I think ae is a decent school, I just think calling them a research powerhouse is ridiculous. What's the bar now?

Yeah I wasn't arguing that they are a research powerhouse. But they do pull in more NIH funding than NYU and 30-40 million dollars more than UM and UF. So although not a powerhouse, I would say, yes they are better at research than UM and UF. If that matters...

 

[drizzt3117]

Yeah I wasn't arguing that they are a research powerhouse. But they do pull in more NIH funding than NYU and 30-40 million dollars more than UM and UF. So although not a powerhouse, I would say, yes they are better at research than UM and UF. If that matters...

Yeah, but their neuro-related NIH funding is the same as Miami, I feel like a lot of their funding is in very basic science research and a good amount of it is at the Yeshiva campus but that's just what I remember.

Regarding Miami, one of the very top ms labs in the country is there, if that's of interest to the op.

 

[jbz24]

Yeah, but their neuro-related NIH funding is the same as Miami, I feel like a lot of their funding is in very basic science research and a good amount of it is at the Yeshiva campus but that's just what I remember.

Regarding Miami, one of the very top ms labs in the country is there, if that's of interest to the op.

You're probably right, I was just glossing over the NIH website and comparing numbers. I was really just commenting on the total amount of research they do, and it's pretty decent. I consider bench research a plus because clinical research is easier to set up and get funding for than bench research is. I really don't know how their neuro research is so the numbers I've been quoting probably isn't helpful for the OP.

 

[drizzt3117]

You're probably right, I was just glossing over the NIH website and comparing numbers. I was really just commenting on the total amount of research they do, and it's pretty decent. I consider bench research a plus because clinical research is easier to set up and get funding for than bench research is. I really don't know how their neuro research is so the numbers I've been quoting probably isn't helpful for the OP.

Btw if you're going off brimr, their numbers are completely wrong even based on their own spreadsheet. On the top of this post I posted a file that is the NIH #s for 2009 sorted by school with the calculations done correctly. They understated my schools funding by almost 100 million 😡 hopefully us news wasn't using those numbers.

 

[jbz24]

Btw if you're going off brimr, their numbers are completely wrong even based on their own spreadsheet. On the top of this post I posted a file that is the NIH #s for 2009 sorted by school with the calculations done correctly. They understated my schools funding by almost 100 million 😡 hopefully us news wasn't using those numbers.

I've been using http://report.nih.gov/award/trends/FindOrg.cfm

Is that wrong?

 

[drizzt3117]

I've been using http://report.nih.gov/award/trends/FindOrg.cfm

Is that wrong?

No those #s seem right (although I just compared my own institution)

the spreadsheet I posted has the aggregates for al NIH recipients ranked

 

[FIREitUP]

I'd go where you'd be most happy, which would equate to a better performance in school/boards/etc.
Oh, and whatever is cheapest.

 

[MossPoh]

I'd honestly look less at the money each school gets and perhaps even how "big" of a name it is and look more at which ones would give you access to do the most. Who cares if they have tons of NIH funding and big names if all you do is a lit review? It will be difficult, but you could probably search out sources for some of the bigger people at each locale and see how many papers have students as first author.

I don't go to a big research school but I have a pretty big time neurologist putting me as PI for research. He is guiding me through all the steps, as well as he will have me in clinic for half a day every week seeing patients with him and learning a proper neuro/funduscopic exam amongst other things. When all is said and done he told me his goal was to have me prepared to pursue academics if I choose, become a better clinician and get AT LEAST a poster presentation at a conference, if not a full on publish. A willing teacher with solid connections is worth far more in the long run. So, find a place that wants its students in there rather than one where you have to jump through hoops and beg to just get into a lab.

 

[drizzt3117]

I agree with your general sentiment. Having a good relationship with a PI/mentor is very important. However, and I'd say unfortunately, in academic medicine, especially at the top programs, connections with big names in the field are quite important. Also, the big research schools have research experiences set up for their students already that are designed to give them first author pubs. It's in their best interest to get their students published early and often.

I'd honestly look less at the money each school gets and perhaps even how "big" of a name it is and look more at which ones would give you access to do the most. Who cares if they have tons of NIH funding and big names if all you do is a lit review? It will be difficult, but you could probably search out sources for some of the bigger people at each locale and see how many papers have students as first author.

I don't go to a big research school but I have a pretty big time neurologist putting me as PI for research. He is guiding me through all the steps, as well as he will have me in clinic for half a day every week seeing patients with him and learning a proper neuro/funduscopic exam amongst other things. When all is said and done he told me his goal was to have me prepared to pursue academics if I choose, become a better clinician and get AT LEAST a poster presentation at a conference, if not a full on publish. A willing teacher with solid connections is worth far more in the long run. So, find a place that wants its students in there rather than one where you have to jump through hoops and beg to just get into a lab.

 

[Jihad]

I'm in the same boat. I am very interested in neurosci, neurology, neurosurg with a leaning to academics and will almost certainly be attending UM.