UPenn vs Columbia vs Yale

[protonate]

So I've been fortunate enough to get into all 3 of these schools. Financially, all 3 schools will cost more or less the same. I won't be able to go to either second look so I'm hoping to have you guys chime in. I'm originally from MD, and would like to live not too far from Maryland because of my support system. Philly is 2 hours away, new york is 4 hours, and new haven is about 6. I am currently interested in general surgery so I would like to attend the school that will best prepare me for this (I know I can change my mind, but I would really like a school that gets people into top residencies). Also, what school do you guys think will provide me with the best clinical training? Apart from that, here are the pros and cons that I compiled for the schools:
Columbia:
Pros
-Curriculum
-P/F unranked
-1.5 Years Preclinical/1 Year Clinical/ Step 1=> the first class to do this apparently averaged in the 240's
-Diverse Patient Population
-Strong Surgery Programs
-MD/MBA (Possible)
-Strong faculty support=>advisory dean lunches every 2 weeks
-Surgery electives during the first 2 years that teach you how to suture etc...
-MVP
Cons
None

Yale
Pros
-Curriculum
-P/F unranked
-Yale System
-Match List
-MD-MBA (Automatic)
Cons
-Location=> both distance and the fact that New Haven is not the best city
-Thesis=> seems like it doesn't seem appealing from what I read on the school specific threads but recently I was thinking that it might not be that bad because you will be under the full guidance of a faculty member who knows what they are doing.

UPenn
Pros
-1.5 Years Preclinical/1 Year Clinical/ Step 1
-Location
Cons
-H/P/F
-Ranking

PLEASE provide me with feedback.

THANKS!

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[Velour Fog]

Unless I'm missing something here, I'd go with the school that has the most pros and zero cons.

 

[protonate]

Unless I'm missing something here, I'd go with the school that has the most pros and zero cons.

I'm just hoping that you guys could possibly see anything that I'm missing- i.e add to the list of things.

 

[MedStdnt01]

I don't think you could go wrong with any of these schools, but if you're interested in an MD/MBA, the combined program with Wharton is a pretty big "pro" for Penn.

Congrats! It sounds like you have amazing options

 

[capn jazz]

sounds like you want to go to columbia!

 

[I like meowmix]

If MD/MBA is on your mind, UPenn. Otherwise, Columbia sounds like what you want.

 

[protonate]

If MD/MBA is on your mind, UPenn. Otherwise, Columbia sounds like what you want.

I know that Penn has a top business school, but from what I've heard it's not as direct as Yale. I wouldn't need to take the GMAT but I'd still have to interview and stuff to get into the program.

 

[CloverHoney]

I would love to be your future classmate at Yale next year, but it sounds like Columbia is your true calling! My opinion is that Columbia would be able to provide you the best clinical exposure of the 3 (I interviewed at all 3) especially when surgery is considered. Start early with that transplant pager

 

[mmmcdowe]

I know that Penn has a top business school, but from what I've heard it's not as direct as Yale. I wouldn't need to take the GMAT but I'd still have to interview and stuff to get into the program.

I'd also point out that Columbia's business school is also top notch and, in regards to medicine and business, I would point out that Columbia has a strong history in that area. At least one CEO of Merck and numerous drug/device inventors were Columbia P&S alumni, and our connections through our alumni network are fairly robust in that regard as well. I doubt this is NYC specific, but I also know of classmates who have worked for major medical firms while in medical school (marketing, research, investment). As far as surgery in general, I think you'd be hard pressed to say that Penn or Yale are better than Columbia in terms than prep. I'll hold off from saying that Columbia is better, because frankly all three schools are exemplary and will prepare you as well as possible for any career that you have the ability and drive to pursue.

 

[protonate]

I'd also point out that Columbia's business school is also top notch and, in regards to medicine and business, I would point out that Columbia has a strong history in that area. At least one CEO of Merck and numerous drug/device inventors were Columbia P&S alumni, and our connections through our alumni network are fairly robust in that regard as well. I doubt this is NYC specific, but I also know of classmates who have worked for major medical firms while in medical school (marketing, research, investment). As far as surgery in general, I think you'd be hard pressed to say that Penn or Yale are better than Columbia in terms than prep. I'll hold off from saying that Columbia is better, because frankly all three schools are exemplary and will prepare you as well as possible for any career that you have the ability and drive to pursue.

Mmmcdowe,
Would I have to take the GMAT if I wanted to apply to the business school?

 

[mmmcdowe]

Mmmcdowe,
Would I have to take the GMAT if I wanted to apply to the business school?

I believe so, but it is a formality unless you want to apply to other schools (which Columbia allows. I have a couple friends doing their mph's at Harvard and Hopkins though I don't know anyone doing it with mbas personally)

 

[Nymphicus]

With those choices I would only pick Yale if you really like the curriculum they have.

 

[deleted103644]

If you want to be in NYC, go to Columbia.

Otherwise, UPenn definitely. Philly's a decent city and UPenn is the better school.

Only go to Yale if you are seriously self-motivated - even with a pool of talented students, it's too easy for people to get lazy and underperform there.

 

[Finches]

If you want to be in NYC, go to Columbia.

Otherwise, UPenn definitely. Philly's a decent city and UPenn is the better school.

Only go to Yale if you are seriously self-motivated - even with a pool of talented students, it's too easy for people to get lazy and underperform there.

Are you a student at Yale? When I interviewed, I didn't get the sense that people there find it easy to lazy around just because they have the option of doing so, because the student body is very driven and motivate each other. I think their match list proves this point.

I'm in a similar position as the OP, and what I've found is that with choices like these, people (usually those who never attended these schools) tend to overexaggerate a minor difference among them based on hearsay. I don't think there's a "definitely" better school among the three. The biggest differences are location (New Haven is blah), curriculum (P/F, 1.5 clinical), and, unique to your case, accessibility to an MD-MBA program.

I personally think your pro/con list nails the important points; searching for something you may have missed can result in a glorified version of splitting hairs.

 

[twizzlers713]

Sounds like OP should do Columbia for surgery

 

[DoctwoB]

I'd go with Penn, but sounds like your set on columbia. You also didn't mention price, which is a major deciding factor when looking at relatively equivalent schools.

 

[protonate]

I'd go with Penn, but sounds like your set on columbia. You also didn't mention price, which is a major deciding factor when looking at relatively equivalent schools.

Price is more or less the same for all three schools.

 

[RedSox10]

In a case like this I might also consider where you'd like to do your residency since a lot of schools have inbreeding. If you'd like to do your residency at Columbia, for instance, I might consider that.

From my perspective, with costs being identical and prestige being very close, I'd pick based on location. Where would you rather spend the next four years?

Since you had nothing bad to say about Columbia, I'd seriously consider that.

 

[BrainBuff]

Ok, as per your request

Columbia:
Pros
-Curriculum
-P/F unranked
-1.5 Years Preclinical/1 Year Clinical/ Step 1=> the first class to do this apparently averaged in the 240's
-Diverse Patient Population
-Strong Surgery Programs
-MD/MBA (Possible)
-Strong faculty support=>advisory dean lunches every 2 weeks
-Surgery electives during the first 2 years that teach you how to suture etc...
-MVP

Cons
-Location (have you stayed long enough in Washington Heights?)
-Dean actually discourages joining combined MD programs (personal experience here!)

Yale
Pros
-Curriculum
-P/F unranked
-Yale System
-MD-MBA (Automatic)

Cons
-Location=> both distance and the fact that New Haven is not the best city (horrible actually)
-Thesis=> seems like it doesn't seem appealing from what I read on the school specific threads but recently I was thinking that it might not be that bad because you will be under the full guidance of a faculty member who knows what they are doing.
-Clinical years do not seem that strong.

UPenn
Pros
-1.5 Years Preclinical/1 Year Clinical/ Step 1
-Location -Philli is a great city to live in - stay in Center City
-Second ranked medical school
-Match list is the best in the country for competitive residencies and locations year after year (rivals Harvard and Hopkins)
-Ease to get into combined programs (MD/MS, etc) like no other, including Wharton (best MBA program in the world)
-Strong faculty support = access to specialists for shadowing, discussions, etc 100%
-USMLE Step 1 average -is the highest in the country (yes, higher than the other two)
-Diverse patient population

Cons
-H/P/F (which actually translates into a better match placement compared to peer schools)
-Class Ranking (which actually translates into a better match placement compared to peer schools)

 

[deleted103644]

You don't need to live in Washington Heights. Pretty sure it's less than <20 minutes on the A from 59th, and you could always live near the Columbia undergrad campus and take a local.


It really comes down to NYC vs UPenn, which is arguably the best medical school in the country.


I'm a diehard NYer, but if I were in your shoes I would still probably choose UPenn. Columbia is solid, but UPenn is better.


New Haven isn't that bad, particularly of you're a student. But I would still choose Yale last.

 

[Finches]

Ok, as per your request
UPenn
Pros
-1.5 Years Preclinical/1 Year Clinical/ Step 1
-Location -Philli is a great city to live in - stay in Center City
-Second ranked medical school
-Match list is the best in the country for competitive residencies and locations year after year (rivals Harvard and Hopkins)
-Ease to get into combined programs (MD/MS, etc) like no other, including Wharton (best MBA program in the world)
-Strong faculty support = access to specialists for shadowing, discussions, etc 100%
-USMLE Step 1 average -is the highest in the country (yes, higher than the other two)
-Diverse patient population

Cons
-H/P/F (which actually translates into a better match placement compared to peer schools)
-Class Ranking (which actually translates into a better match placement compared to peer schools)

Is this point true? I mean, I wouldn't be surprised considering its Penn, but how different are the averages, and where's the source?

Also, a bit prolific use of the phrases "best in the world" and "best in the country" there; Wharton's good, but I rate HBS and SBS higher.

 

[BrainBuff]

Is this point true? I mean, I wouldn't be surprised considering its Penn, but how different are the averages, and where's the source?

Also, a bit prolific use of the phrases "best in the world" and "best in the country" there; Wharton's good, but I rate HBS and SBS higher.

I know, I l know....(The OP seemed to have ignored so many known facts about Penn that I wanted to make a point)

Averages are just a couple of points over some of the other top schools and some years they have been the same. But overall they are the highest. The source : admissions office

 

[mmmcdowe]

Ok, as per your request

Columbia:
Pros
-Curriculum
-P/F unranked
-1.5 Years Preclinical/1 Year Clinical/ Step 1=> the first class to do this apparently averaged in the 240's
-Diverse Patient Population
-Strong Surgery Programs
-MD/MBA (Possible)
-Strong faculty support=>advisory dean lunches every 2 weeks
-Surgery electives during the first 2 years that teach you how to suture etc...
-MVP

Cons
-Location (have you stayed long enough in Washington Heights?)
-Dean actually discourages joining combined MD programs (personal experience here!) Meh, this isn't true. I vaguely remember your unique experience, but as a whole there is no discouragement by the administration to pursue second degrees. This is especially true with MD/PhD, but is also true for other degrees.Further, Dr. Nicholas has no say in what you do once you are in the door even if it were true, and I seriously doubt that any student's admission chances are changed by their desire to do something in the future like a second degree.

Yale
Pros
-Curriculum
-P/F unranked
-Yale System
-MD-MBA (Automatic)

Cons
-Location=> both distance and the fact that New Haven is not the best city (horrible actually)
-Thesis=> seems like it doesn't seem appealing from what I read on the school specific threads but recently I was thinking that it might not be that bad because you will be under the full guidance of a faculty member who knows what they are doing.
-Clinical years do not seem that strong.

UPenn
Pros
-1.5 Years Preclinical/1 Year Clinical/ Step 1
-Location -Philli is a great city to live in - stay in Center City
-Second ranked medical school
-Match list is the best in the country for competitive residencies and locations year after year (rivals Harvard and Hopkins) Source?
-Ease to get into combined programs (MD/MS, etc) like no other, including Wharton (best MBA program in the world)
-Strong faculty support = access to specialists for shadowing, discussions, etc 100%
-USMLE Step 1 average -is the highest in the country (yes, higher than the other two) I tend to believe it in past years given their curriculum, but I'm always dubious of the source.
-Diverse patient population

Cons
-H/P/F (which actually translates into a better match placement compared to peer schools) Source?
-Class Ranking (which actually translates into a better match placement compared to peer schools)Source?

I think a lot of this is subjective. I have never seen a comprehensive analysis of a single match list for any school, let alone a legitimate comparative analysis between Hopkins, Penn, and Harvard. I'd love to see one though if you have it. The closest thing that I saw to something like this was that guy who posted an analysis of top 5 programs + Columbia for the surgical subs. If I recall, Stanford and Columbia were front runners overall, but it was pretty noisy, the "ranking" was subjective, and the data was only 1-2 match lists.

 

[deleted103644]

I think a lot of this is subjective. I have never seen a comprehensive analysis of a single match list for any school, let alone a legitimate comparative analysis between Hopkins, Penn, and Harvard. I'd love to see one though if you have it.

If you can get me a copy of every match list (with full program names/program IDs) I'll get right on it...

 

[mmmcdowe]

If you can get me a copy of every match list (with full program names/program IDs) I'll get right on it...

I can supply the last 4-5 from Columbia, but that's as far as I'll go

 

[deleted103644]

I can supply the last 4-5 from Columbia, but that's as far as I'll go

Nah, want to do this thing justice, but it's too hard to compile the whole dataset.

You could use it not only to create quasi rankings for medical schools, but for residency programs as well. I'd have to put some more thought into it, but again, first would need the data.

 

[Knocked Up]

OP, why not take a cheaper alternative and study for the Boards like there is no tomorrow. Certainly you must be a good standardized test taker to be able to get into these three schools. Do you really want to give the pinheads at Penn $250k? Even worse, if you enroll in their MBA program. Columbia's cost of tuition is even worse, and for what? Name one thing they can give you significantly over just attending a cheaper in state school and getting a 250+ with 3 first author publications? An inbred residency spot? Who cares? Trust me, for the competitive specialties, no-one (meaning the people you hope to hire you someday....well, I guess aside from very same dimwits who sit on hiring committees for tenure spots at these same institutions) will care where you trained.

Just my .02

 

[BrainBuff]

I think a lot of this is subjective. I have never seen a comprehensive analysis of a single match list for any school, let alone a legitimate comparative analysis between Hopkins, Penn, and Harvard. I'd love to see one though if you have it. The closest thing that I saw to something like this was that guy who posted an analysis of top 5 programs + Columbia for the surgical subs. If I recall, Stanford and Columbia were front runners overall, but it was pretty noisy, the "ranking" was subjective, and the data was only 1-2 match lists.

Because of this question, I have sat down with the lists from 5 top schools (including the three we are talking about) and I have looked at the last three years. If you consider Dermatology, Plastics, Orthopedics, ENT, Opthalmology, Radiation Oncology and Radiology competitive specialties - Penn has an outrageous number of students getting into these programs compared to the rest of the other schools. Only Harvard and Hopkins are close. Yale does not even compare, nor does Columbia.

If you consider Mass General and the other Harvard programs, UCSF, and Hopkins across the board (not on specific specialties) the most competitive - Penn has the greatest number of students matching there. (I am missing a couple of schools from this year, so I hope to add that)

As a matter of fact, Penn has indicated officially to us that their reason to keep the H/PF system after the first semester is because of the feedback that they get from residency directors and because it makes their students better candidates for the most competitive residencies and the most desirable academic programs...

 

[mmmcdowe]

Because of this question, I have sat down with the lists from 5 top schools (including the three we are talking about) and I have looked at the last three years. If you consider Dermatology, Plastics, Orthopedics, ENT, Opthalmology, Radiation Oncology and Radiology competitive specialties - Penn has an outrageous number of students getting into these programs compared to the rest of the other schools. Only Harvard and Hopkins are close. Yale does not even compare, nor does Columbia.

If you consider Mass General and the other Harvard programs, UCSF, and Hopkins across the board (not on specific specialties) the most competitive - Penn has the greatest number of students matching there. (I am missing a couple of schools from this year, so I hope to add that)

As a matter of fact, Penn has indicated officially to us that their reason to keep the H/PF system after the first semester is because of the feedback that they get from residency directors and because it makes their students better candidates for the most competitive residencies and the most desirable academic programs...

Did you compensate for the fact that Penn has more students than Hopkins and Yale? I'm not comfortable with the legitimacy of this method of comparison, but it'll have to do since anything more would be onerous. I'd be interested in hearing the numbers/ratios.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I'd also point out that Columbia's business school is also top notch and, in regards to medicine and business, I would point out that Columbia has a strong history in that area.

but their rugby team is a buncha girly men

 

[mmmcdowe]

but their rugby team is a buncha girly men

Not compared to my troupe of ballet dancing, musical singing manly men.


Also to just add to the above conversation. One of the reasons why this mode of comparison doesn't sit well with me is, in a school with lots of grades and ranking, it is precisely people going into those fields that are going to benefit. They are going to have among the highest step scores and, on average, better grades.

 

[protonate]

Because of this question, I have sat down with the lists from 5 top schools (including the three we are talking about) and I have looked at the last three years. If you consider Dermatology, Plastics, Orthopedics, ENT, Opthalmology, Radiation Oncology and Radiology competitive specialties - Penn has an outrageous number of students getting into these programs compared to the rest of the other schools. Only Harvard and Hopkins are close. Yale does not even compare, nor does Columbia.

If you consider Mass General and the other Harvard programs, UCSF, and Hopkins across the board (not on specific specialties) the most competitive - Penn has the greatest number of students matching there. (I am missing a couple of schools from this year, so I hope to add that)

As a matter of fact, Penn has indicated officially to us that their reason to keep the H/PF system after the first semester is because of the feedback that they get from residency directors and because it makes their students better candidates for the most competitive residencies and the most desirable academic programs...

But wouldn't this benefit only those students who honor? Let's say I don't honor and simply pass, wouldn't I be at a disadvantage compared to a student at Columbia who simply has to pass ?(although that in itself is not trivial)

 

[chronicidal]

I think a lot of this is subjective. I have never seen a comprehensive analysis of a single match list for any school, let alone a legitimate comparative analysis between Hopkins, Penn, and Harvard. I'd love to see one though if you have it. The closest thing that I saw to something like this was that guy who posted an analysis of top 5 programs + Columbia for the surgical subs. If I recall, Stanford and Columbia were front runners overall, but it was pretty noisy, the "ranking" was subjective, and the data was only 1-2 match lists.

That was me (blog link below).

Do you have suggestions on how to do a more comprehensive analysis?

Your memory of the methods and results is good. Stanford and Columbia were front runners in surgical specialties. It was pretty darn noisy (year-to-year variation), the averages were only based 2 years, but the ranking is only as subjective any reputation ranking is (mostly based on a mix of USNWR surveys).

Did you compensate for the fact that Penn has more students than Hopkins and Yale? I'm not comfortable with the legitimacy of this method of comparison, but it'll have to do since anything more would be onerous. I'd be interested in hearing the numbers/ratios.

Probably not. I haven't looked at the 2012 Penn match list (could someone post it? I'd be happy to do the onerous calculations), but the size-normalized data from 2010+2011 do not support BrainBuff's conclusions about Penn's superiority over HMS and Hopkins in the rate of matching into the most competitive specialties. It's also certainly not true for matching to top (Harvard, Hopkins, UCSF, and others) internal medicine programs in 2010+2011. Penn is relatively weaker than HMS and Hopkins in that dimension.

As a matter of fact, Penn has indicated officially to us that their reason to keep the H/PF system after the first semester is because of the feedback that they get from residency directors and because it makes their students better candidates for the most competitive residencies and the most desirable academic programs...

Could you post or PM the wording of the official communication that attests to that rationale?

===

Anyways, OP, I'll add a vote for Columbia College of Surgeons and Surgeons. You'll have the most required exposure to surgical specialties prior to residency applications at Columbia. Compared to Columbia, Penn in 2010+2011 had weaker surgical matches.

 

[mmmcdowe]

That was me (blog link below).

Do you have suggestions on how to do a more comprehensive analysis?

Your memory of the methods and results is good. Stanford and Columbia were front runners in surgical specialties. It was pretty darn noisy (year-to-year variation), the averages were only based 2 years, but the ranking is only as subjective any reputation ranking is (mostly based on a mix of USNWR surveys).



Probably not. I haven't looked at the 2012 Penn match list (could someone post it? I'd be happy to do the onerous calculations), but the size-normalized data from 2010+2011 do not support BrainBuff's conclusions about Penn's superiority over HMS and Hopkins in the rate of matching into the most competitive specialties. It's also certainly not true for matching to top (Harvard, Hopkins, UCSF, and others) internal medicine programs in 2010+2011. Penn is relatively weaker than HMS and Hopkins in that dimension.



Could you post or PM the wording of the official communication that attests to that rationale?

The best way to get a comprehensive analysis would be to find a better way to identify top programs. USNews could potentially shed some light on departments, but not residency programs. The only way to do that would to convince a significant number of program directors in every field analyzed to give a list of their top 10 programs and then find the 10 with the most "votes". Even if this was possible, I'm sure that only a few programs would really stand out as top and then there'd be another 20 or so contenders for ranks 5-10.

 

[protonate]

Finally got all of my financial aid stuff back and it looks like Penn will be the cheapest (by 40k over the 4 years) and Yale and Columbia being more or less the same. Do you guys think this difference is substantial enough to influence my decision or is 40k not much in the grand scheme of things?

 

[deleted103644]

Finally got all of my financial aid stuff back and it looks like Penn will be the cheapest (by 40k over the 4 years) and Yale and Columbia being more or less the same. Do you guys think this difference is substantial enough to influence my decision or is 40k not much in the grand scheme of things?

I'd choose Penn even without the $40k.

 

[MembersName]

I am actually facing the exact same decision (Penn v. Columbia v. Yale). Luckily, I will be able to make ALL three second looks. At the moment I'm leaning towards Yale, but I guess I'll see how Penn's second look goes...

 

[protonate]

I am actually facing the exact same decision (Penn v. Columbia v. Yale). Luckily, I will be able to make ALL three second looks. At the moment I'm leaning towards Yale, but I guess I'll see how Penn's second look goes...

Do you have anything you can add to the pros and cons list?

 

[eHombre]

A few more Yale pros, since I'm familiar with those:

- No shelf exams during clinical year. There are "qualifiers" but you take them anonymously.
- While clinical year is nominally H/HP/P/F, in practice it's H/HP, so competition is minimized during that time as well.
- Exams are taken online and can be taken anytime, anywhere during the week(s)-long exam period.
- Very generous vacation time (three week winter break, two week spring break, 8 weeks to study for step 1, which Yale students do very well on).
- Many people worry about being able to stand out from their classmates in a system like this. That's a legitimate concern, but doesn't seem to be borne out by the match results. Furthermore, the thesis does a great job of selling you to residency directors all on its own.
- Match list was very competitive both in terms of competitive specialties and competitive hospitals. E.g., 8/124 in derm, 22/124 at Harvard-affiliated hospitals.
- Med students seem to be treated very well on the wards, with good ancillary services (i.e., no drawing blood for your entire roster of patients).


- One potential con for OP from the match list results is that they don't seem to turn out as many surgeons as Columbia does, though there are plenty (22/124). Yale also makes it easy to rotate through a surgical subspecialty during your surgery rotation.
- Yale has invested a lot in New Haven in recent years, and it shows if you actually go there to visit. It's a small city with lots of culture and great restaurants. There's a unique and varied immigrant population with whom you'll learn medicine. If you want to accomplish something in the community, there are fewer moving parts in a city of 130,000. If you want to experience the outdoors, you don't have to travel far to do it. And if you want to visit NYC, it's only 1.5 hours on MetroNorth.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Finally got all of my financial aid stuff back and it looks like Penn will be the cheapest (by 40k over the 4 years) and Yale and Columbia being more or less the same. Do you guys think this difference is substantial enough to influence my decision or is 40k not much in the grand scheme of things?

You should contact Yale and Columbia's finaid and see if they can help

 

[protonate]

I wanted to let you guys know that I've decided to attend Upenn in the fall. It was a very tough decision but in the end I feel like it's the best choice for me. I want to thank all of you that weighed in the thread, you helped me make my decision!

 

[BrainBuff]

I wanted to let you guys know that I've decided to attend Upenn in the fall. It was a very tough decision but in the end I feel like it's the best choice for me. I want to thank all of you that weighed in the thread, you helped me make my decision!

You will love it! See you around....