USC First Year Total Cost: $123,000.

[DMDWANNABEE]

Earnings tend to have a resilience about them that are not effected in the same way as the price of individual products. Stagnation of dental earnings may occur, which would result in a lower income in real terms, but there is not a lot out there to support a huge correction in nominal terms. If this "bump" has lasted several decades it's probably here to stay.

Having said that - I completely agree with what you said regarding the role of the federal government in rising tuition.

This sounds reasonable enough. I suppose I was assuming salaries would drop, rather than stagnate (and decrease in only relative terms) for two reasons: First, dentists draw their income from the positive cash flow of their practice, not from a larger company's payroll. I assumed that this meant that they were more directly sensitive to fluctuations in their industry because they do not have a set, contractually obligated salary. Rather than maintain their salary until conditions improve or they are fired, they would simply take a pay cut. Secondly, when I look at dental salaries over short periods of time (within a single decade), salaries do drop in both real and nominal terms. By this I mean to say the difference is not purely the result of inflation, because the difference is by more than a few percentage points per year. I can't look further into it than that because I don't know the first thing about consumer price indices, and I frankly consider myself to be financially illiterate.

Perhaps a more likely scenario would be a bi-modal distribution like layers are experiencing now. Top salaries might only stagnate with the formation of a distinct lower income tier. I know I saw an article about that somewhere. Maybe I can find it.

Edit: Eh...Not the actual article, but it's a reference to it.
http://www.nalp.org/uploads/0812Research.pdf

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[DMDWANNABEE]

Do you have any sources to support that the dentist : population ratio is increasing or that relative demand for services is decreasing? The baby boomer dentists are going to need to retire or die at some point, the other baby boomers are getting old and have more teeth than ever before, there was a contraction of dental grads from the 80s to the 00s, and the US population is still growing. Also I find it very interesting how much sky is falling mentality is going on around SDN, is everyone here from SoCal and NYC? Lol I go to school in the midwest (only dental school in state) and our grads are doing quite well. Dentists are often visiting looking for associates. Just a glance at our career placement website has a bunch of practices who are looking for help (yes mostly rural).

No. Because the dentist : population ratio is falling and demand is flat.

My comment was off-the-cuff and should not be taken too seriously. What I was alluding to was the increasing dental school enrollment, the introduction of midlevel providers, and the new policy of allowing Indian and Mexican dental school graduates practice in the U.S. without first going though U.S. dental schools. Because the last two bypass the historically highly closed admittance to the profession, and because all three should work to reverse the declining provider trend we have seen in recent years, I imagine things will normalize a bit faster than they were going to before.

Just to be clear, I am optimistic about the profession. I think we will be established before these are real issues. I think it's a good choice for us, and you are right to ignore things that seem a bit too "doom and gloom".

Edit: And related to all that, there Sen. Sanders has again introduced his Dental Reform Act to the senate. Once again it calls for a federally based expansion of the dental therapist program - but this time it also would designate dental insurance as "essential" under the ACA, which it currently is not. It also calls for more funding to government repayment programs. Apparently this one is being met with more positive reactions than the last version. I still think it'll fail, but it's interesting to think about.

 

[yappy]

Edit: And related to all that, there Sen. Sanders has again introduced his Dental Reform Act to the senate. Once again it calls for a federally based expansion of the dental therapist program - but this time it also would designate dental insurance as "essential" under the ACA, which it currently is not. It also calls for more funding to government repayment programs. Apparently this one is being met with more positive reactions than the last version. I still think it'll fail, but it's interesting to think about.

Sanders is a huge deal. He has a dream; and, it involves reshaping dentistry to secure future votes. Just in case anyone cares about the future and autonomy of our profession - he is a democrat. His plan to use [in a bad way] professionals, other peoples taxes, and piggy-back on existing laws to give benefits to people is a common theme in the democrat playbook. Vote accordingly.

 

[lwen5]

Sanders is a huge deal. He has a dream; and, it involves reshaping dentistry to secure future votes. Just in case anyone cares about the future and autonomy of our profession - he is a democrat. His plan to use [in a bad way] professionals, other peoples taxes, and piggy-back on existing laws to give benefits to people is a common theme in the democratic playbook. Vote accordingly.

Bernie Sanders is a disgusting opportunist. He is actually not a democrat though. He is an independent and his party is 'Democratic Socialist'. I think dentists would be fools to support his farce.

 

[Shunwei]

Sanders is a huge deal. He has a dream; and, it involves reshaping dentistry to secure future votes. Just in case anyone cares about the future and autonomy of our profession - he is a democrat. His plan to use [in a bad way] professionals, other peoples taxes, and piggy-back on existing laws to give benefits to people is a common theme in the democratic playbook. Vote accordingly.

It's politicians, what do you expect? I have more respect for the cockroach I flushed town the toilet two weeks ago than for that particular group of human population.

 

[yappy]

Bernie Sanders is a disgusting opportunist. He is actually not a democrat though. He is an independent and his party is 'Democratic Socialist'. I think dentists would be fools to support his farce.

Sorry, you're right. I tend to categorize politicians based on ideology rather than ticket.

 

[Silent Cool]

Do you think that Bernie's proposal/bill has a *decent* chance of passing? If it DOES pass, how will dentistry be affected? Are we talking a massive proliferation of corp. offices and gov't clinics (ie, FQHCs)?

thanx

 

[lwen5]

Do you think that Bernie's proposal/bill has a *decent* chance of passing? If it DOES pass, how will dentistry be affected? Are we talking a massive proliferation of corp. offices and gov't clinics (ie, FQHCs)?

thanx

Corporate offices will gain the biggest from this, which is exactly what Sanders want. Democrats do not like private practice docs (they act like doctors make too much money when the reality is a majority of Dems could not even work hard enough/are not smart enough to pass basic biology). Dems dont like private practice docs, because they are very much against decentralization and desperately craze centralization (so they can regulate it and offer free services to the mob). The bill Sanders has includes giving grants to organizations that have a "history of serving the Medicad population" (i.e the corporate chains). Also academic centers (which are just as equally slimy as the politicians and corporate dentistry) will gain. The bill calls for expansion of mid-levels. The for profit-education lobby (stuff like DeVry) will be pushing for expansion of mid-level roles, so that that way they can charge sky high tuition and have people go to the federal government and get loans to pay that high tuition. Chains will love this. This means they don't even have to hire dentists. They can hirer fewer dentists to do the more complex procedures and then dump the blame on the dentist in case something goes south.

I personally dont have a problem with FQHCs. I think the most a person working at an FQHC can make is around 179K I think, which is something I support. If it is going to be taxpayer funded, it had better not be wasting our money. So I dont think FQHCs are bad.

If Democrats win the 2014 midterm elections, then this bill will get passed. If that doesn't happen, I think once Hilary wins in 2016 (Dems will probably win the House back because of her), the bill is definetley a shoe-in. I personally think all dentists should donate, call, or write letters to Repub Senator Chuck Grassley who is investigating chains for unethical practices. Dentists should not take the bait of increased reimbursement for Medicad services. It would be a nail in the coffin.

 

[yappy]

I was about to write something very similar to this, Iwen. Nail on head.


The differences between conservatives and liberals is clear in this exchange between Paul (a physician) and Sanders. Notice that Sanders' position is that healthcare is someones right. He then questions someones perception to counter the implications that Paul brought up in response to Sanders original argument. This is the sort of low-brow-statist thinking that is characteristic of liberals. We're merely pons to this guy - civil servants in the making.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUXwDMqjC-A[/YOUTUBE]

Corporate offices will gain the biggest from this, which is exactly what Sanders want. Democrats do not like private practice docs (they act like doctors make too much money when the reality is a majority of Dems could not even work hard enough/are not smart enough to pass basic biology). Dems dont like private practice docs, because they are very much against decentralization and desperately craze centralization (so they can regulate it and offer free services to the mob). The bill Sanders has includes giving grants to organizations that have a "history of serving the Medicad population" (i.e the corporate chains). Also academic centers (which are just as equally slimy as the politicians and corporate dentistry) will gain. The bill calls for expansion of mid-levels. The for profit-education lobby (stuff like DeVry) will be pushing for expansion of mid-level roles, so that that way they can charge sky high tuition and have people go to the federal government and get loans to pay that high tuition. Chains will love this. This means they don't even have to hire dentists. They can hirer fewer dentists to do the more complex procedures and then dump the blame on the dentist in case something goes south.

 

[Timpson]

This is a fun thread to read. Here's some background on me. I graduated from USC last May. Like most people here I was blown away by the costs associated with USC. The best part of the interview is when our Financial Aid guy gets up and tells you you'll be paying about $1.2M dollars to attend after all interest is added up after a 20 year payback.

I offer a couple of solutions to the issue:

1) Pay-as-you-earn payback along with public service. This is how a lot of med students pay for their school because of one simply truth, your residency/internship usually counts toward the 10 year payback requred. Similar situation in dentistry, if you do a residency at a hospital you can usually count those years, then just work a bit longer at the hospital and your loans are forgiven at year 10 with no tax implactions.

2) Military. This is the route I went. USC was 100% free for me. I did take out a small amount of loans to help pay for living expenses in LA (the Army gave me $2000 a month, not quite enough for LA when you're married). The other plus to the military is I'm working and not stressed at all. If my patient doesn't show up, no worries, I'm not production based. If I decide to do a composite instead of an indirect restoration, no problem, becasue again, not production based.

The other nice thing about the military is that the compensation for a dentist really is quite nice. My pretax salary is about 85k (of which about 20k is tax free). When you factor the benefits of the military (tax savings, no loans to pay back, free healthcare, great retirement plan that requres no contribution from me) my "effective" salary is over 100k.


I am in no way defending the cost of USC and I can't say that you get what you pay for, but what I can say is that USC is somewhat justified in its costs. The cost of having a dental school with the name USC in front of it requires a large sum of money paid to the "main campus" per student each year. Also, the clinic at USC is huge (not in space but in scope). I did not like the way that the clinic was run and I felt the requirement system that USC used when I was there was out-dated and flawed, but I can say that I left USC (barely on time, I might add) as a clinician that is leagues above other dental school's clinicians (not every school, but many). This is 100% because of how much work we had to do to graduate. Doing all of that clinical work costs an absurd amount of money and in order to get patients the costs to the patient must be subsidized by tuition. This is the sad fact of dental schools. Many of the lower cost schools have to sacrifice the amount of patients they can see and there by sacrifice the amount of work that they can require.

If you have any questions about USC or about ways to do dental school 100% free let me know.

Great points, thanks for sharing about your experience.

 

[DMDWANNABEE]

Geeze. Not quite the response I was expecting from my comment, if any.

This bill seems better for dentists than the bill he introduced last year. The provision requiring that dental insurance be mandatory for adults, as it will now be for children, should increase the average person's ability to afford dentistry (by essentially forcing them to set aside $1500 or so for dentistry). Right?

Although I assume this provision also dramatically reduces the bill's chance of passing, so I would be surprised if it made it through the Senate, let alone the House. Also, keep in mind that it failed spectacularly last year. This will still be a state-by-state issue for awhile I think.

No worries.

 

[therev1990]

I know several OOS students at Minnesota who took out upwards of $110K for their first year.

 

[Cold Front]

If we compare tuition increases with starting salary for the last 10 years, the picture becomes very scary.

The scary thing is, the entry level dentist salary has not changed at more than $500/day for 95% of general dentistry graduates for the past decade or so. Even today, at the current economic climate, you will see job offers for new graduates ranging from $400-500/day. As each year goes by, each new graduate's net take home is less than the graduates that was a year ahead of them in the field, because the tuition debt payments is higher, while the starting salary has not changed.

Below is the USC cost of attendance for the last decade, with projection of next couple of years. Tuition went up about $50,000 in 12 years, that's about 60%. USC general dentist graduates in 2004 starting salary is the same as today's new graduate starting salary, almost 0% change. Some may argue that 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th year salaries will go up dramatically, but that's not true for all graduates, specially when you factor in taxes (which goes up with higher income), and the cost of inflation (which went up 28% in the last decade).

 

[Silent Cool]

I actually emailed an alum of USC a while back re: the cost. This is the conversation:

My Question:

"I saw your post re: debt coming out of USC. Do you practice in CA? How much debt do you think is reasonable to graduate with? Is the USC alumni network very helpful? How much would be reasonable to earn as a well-established generalist in CA. What about as a specialist? The reason I am asking is that USC is now even more money. With interest, I would expect a graduate to owe about 500k. I contacted the office recently about the debt issue and they basically just said "do IBR." What do you think?"

Response:

"Not rocket science here... avoid the debt if at all possible. If you have school choices that are more reasonably priced, pursue those. You still get a degree that, in the eyes of patients, is equivalent. Remember this: dental education is not an altruistic endeavor, it's a business that makes a profit. You are their profit.

USC Dental Alumni consits of some parties at the CDA convention and frequent mailings asking for donations, that's it. There was absolutely no assistance placing graduates or opportunities to foster your professional or business growth within school, unlike their MBA program. It's all about getting you through the system. All dental schools offer CE, which will be where most of your income growth potential will occur. i.e. better faster RCTs, how to place implants, practice management, etc.
Keep your debt below $200k. $500k is insane esp at the now higher student loan rates.
However, our clinical education while difficult, did prepare me for real world general dentistry. It failed at teaching the specialized procedures, like molar endo, implants, ortho.

Income depends on practice type and location. Southern Cal is dominated by insurance, so your income potential is hindered greatly. Very few fee for service practice in socal.

I graduated 2003 and in hindsight I wish I would have done a few things:
1) Identify a market inside of CA or outside of CA that is not insurance dominated, has an educated populace, and growth.
2) Make sure you go to a school that will prepare you for the board exam where you want to practice. I think most are doing Western regional and I think CA accepts that now?
3) Get your hands wet immediately upon graduation, unless you can specialize.
4) If you can specialize, specialize. Endo and ortho are very profitable, better work life balance.
5) But first things first, get into a dental school.

Most generals in San Diego are netting $150-$250K for established practice. Not great, really. But not as bad as MDs. There's a lot of soft benefits from owning your own practice unlike MDs who are mostly employees and W2d so not much in the way of deductions.

Good luck."

 

[Confused321]

according to their website,

cost of attendance is now $130,000 for the 1st year..........

so a 7 thousand dollar increase in 2 years? for what reason would it increase so much?

 

[Cold Front]

according to their website,

cost of attendance is now $130,000 for the 1st year..........

so a 7 thousand dollar increase in 2 years? for what reason would it increase so much?

That seems about right.

Typically, most schools raise their total cost of attendance about 3-5% a year. So the USC increase falls within that range.

At this rate, even if they raise just 3% a year for the next 5-6 years, it will be $150k just for the first year. That doesn't include interest that will accrue the next 4 years before you get into repayment status. At 5-6% interest, it will cost the borrower $7.5k each year in just interest for carrying that $150k first year balance, raising that first year debt to a $180k when the borrower graduates (not including the other 3 years of school). If they go to residency from there, the interest will pile up more.

But USC or other schools will never explain these figures to prospective students during the admission process. Because the federal government provides a blank check to the borrower.

 

[allantois]

Alright, I boldly decided against pursuing education for this absurd cost. Someone who went into teaching would be better off than students graduating from these programs. And btw don't count on government to solve the problem as lowering interest on student loans would not solve it but in fact only make it worse.

 

[psiyung]

The cost of some of these schools is absolutely outrageous. The biggest problem as cold front mentioned are these student loans being given out by the federal government like it's popcorn. $130K a year tuition, are you kidding me? No way in hell I would ever pursue any educational program if it cost me that much.

 

[Cold Front]

The cost of some of these schools is absolutely outrageous. The biggest problem as cold front mentioned are these student loans being given out by the federal government like it's popcorn. $130K a year tuition, are you kidding me? No way in hell I would ever pursue any educational program if it cost me that much.

What many people don't know is that these high sticker tuitions are not just exclusive to doctorate programs, but are also seen at dental hygiene and assistant schools.

USC dental hygiene program first year cost of attendance is $95,372. Today, the graduates will have close to $150-200k in debt. In 5 years, it will enter $200k+ range in loans. People are still applying, because the blank check is available to any one who matriculated to the program, regardless of them not caring much about the financial consequences of carrying such high debt.

The facts are; not all graduates will get a job. Even if they do, there is a ceiling to how much they will get paid, which may or may not help taking the pressure/burden off from those high monthly payments. Many dental assistants are defaulting on their loans, up to 20% at some programs, and the default rates are only based on people who missed their loan payment for more than 270 days. Soon enough, the defaults will start at hygiene schools, and eventually at those high tuition dental schools.

Mark my word.

 

[psiyung]

Is it safe to assume that with living expenses in Cali, these dentists walk out with around $800-900K in debt?

 

[Cold Front]

Is it safe to assume that with living expenses in Cali, these dentists walk out with around $800-900K in debt?

It's certainly heading that direction, and fairly soon (if not already) for some graduates who are also taking out additional loans for residency.

Do you remember one of the major causes of the last housing bubble? Complex mortgages were chosen by prime borrowers with high income levels seeking to purchase expensive houses relative to their incomes. Borrowers with complex mortgages experienced substantially higher default rates than borrowers with traditional mortgages with similar characteristics. We are seeing similar thing here, dental applicants getting into schools with very high tuitions relative to their future income, which puts them at a higher risk to default (doesn't mean they will default). As tuition continues to rise, the risk of defaulting also rises, eventually there will be a tipping point. It's anyone's guess what that threshold would be, because it's in an unchartered territory. It could be at $1M debt, $1.2M, and so on.

 

[Incis0r]

It's certainly heading that direction, and fairly soon (if not already) for some graduates who are also taking out additional loans for residency.

Do you remember one of the major causes of the last housing bubble? Complex mortgages were chosen by prime borrowers with high income levels seeking to purchase expensive houses relative to their incomes. Borrowers with complex mortgages experienced substantially higher default rates than borrowers with traditional mortgages with similar characteristics. We are seeing similar thing here, dental applicants getting into schools with very high tuitions relative to their future income, which puts them at a higher risk to default (doesn't mean they will default). As tuition continues to rise, the risk of defaulting also rises, eventually there will be a tipping point. It's anyone's guess what that threshold would be, because it's in an unchartered territory. It could be at $1M debt, $1.2M, and so on.

The only thing is- the banks foreclosed on the houses for people who defaulted. What can they foreclose on when the student loan bubble bursts? Nothing right? They can't physically enter your brain and take the dental knowledge out. They can't strip you of your degree. The only solution I think is to forgive the debt. What's your opinion on this?

Regardless, I will not take more than $250,000 out in student loans. That's my personal limit.

 

[psiyung]

It's certainly heading that direction, and fairly soon (if not already) for some graduates who are also taking out additional loans for residency.

Do you remember one of the major causes of the last housing bubble? Complex mortgages were chosen by prime borrowers with high income levels seeking to purchase expensive houses relative to their incomes. Borrowers with complex mortgages experienced substantially higher default rates than borrowers with traditional mortgages with similar characteristics. We are seeing similar thing here, dental applicants getting into schools with very high tuitions relative to their future income, which puts them at a higher risk to default (doesn't mean they will default). As tuition continues to rise, the risk of defaulting also rises, eventually there will be a tipping point. It's anyone's guess what that threshold would be, because it's in an unchartered territory. It could be at $1M debt, $1.2M, and so on.

I don't think it will be that easy. Once people default, I think the govt will go after everything and anything that you own. Income, home, car, credit etc...Whatever they can get their filthy hands on. Honestly, if this trend continues, its going to be a nasty end game for a lot of people. If I'm walking out with a million dollars in debt, as much as I love this country, I'm sorry but there would be no way I would stay here and be a slave to this debt.

 

[Cold Front]

The only thing is- the banks foreclosed on the houses for people who defaulted. What can they foreclose on when the student loan bubble bursts? Nothing right? They can't physically enter your brain and take the dental knowledge out. They can't strip you of your degree. The only solution I think is to forgive the debt. What's your opinion on this?

First of all, one should never consider a default as an option, and I mean never. But if it did happen, you would still be on the hook; your credit report/score would crash (forget about getting a mortgage, buying an office, etc), Collection fees, wages could be garnished (even by the government), legal issues, etc. Yes, you will still have your diploma on the wall, but your financial life will be interrupted significantly, specially if you have dependents.

Another troubling sign of the effects of higher tuition is the increase of IBR (Income Based Repayments). More and more graduates are applying for this program in the student loans market. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are dentists. This option is not addressing the source of the problem, but acts as a Band-Aid to prevent graduates on defaulting on their loans. If this trend continues, the IBR options could be the norm in repaying loans, and we could possibly say good-bye to all the other traditional forms of repayments in the future.

 

[Silent Cool]

Up to ~130K now

http://dentistry.usc.edu/programs/dds/cost-of-attendance/

 

[jda02624]

The estimation that USC gives for the 4 years total is $452,553, according to that link. With interest not subsidized, that is close to $500k by the time you graduate for a general dentistry degree. That is insane. If someone does not have outside help (i.e. parents), that is a huge amount of money and would take a lot of time before you get into the black financially. I personally would not have the guts to take that risk.

 

[dentheartthrob]

I wouldn't be surprise if in the near future, that student loan bonds would be circulated more due to IBR, rise of tuition and stagnant starting wages. I hope by that time that better regulations be implemented and those bonds not just be packaged into triple A securities.

 

[Cold Front]

I wouldn't be surprise if in the near future, that student loan bonds would be circulated more due to IBR, rise of tuition and stagnant starting wages. I hope by that time that better regulations be implemented and those bonds not just be packaged into triple A securities.

If you take a closer look, the student loans are set up to fail:

1. The definition of "default" is declared when a student fails to make timely payments for 270 days (that's 9 months!) and the consequences only start to kick in after that. Including wage garnishment, loss of Social Security benefits, and confiscation of federal tax refunds. Most credit defaults (including mortgage and auto loans) happen after 60 days. Student loans are an exception, when in fact we now know it's the 2nd largest debt to society after home loans.

2. There are a lot institutions out there (Univeristy of Phoenix, Kaplan, etc) that attract a lot of students and just throw them in online courses at high tuitions. Analysts at Wall Street Journal have found the students at these type of schools are defaulting at 20% rate. However, the government benchmark is 40% before an institution is kicked out the federal loans program. Why allow upto 40% of graduates to default before an institution is to blame? Particularly for the low-value education programs which tend to benefit from this guideline the most. How does this even make sense?

3. The current deferral provisions like "IBR" and "public service" programs are not designed to keep students out of defaulting. It's a supplement to help grads to transition into securing the job everyone wants them to have, to manage and eventually pay off those high debt. More and more students are now in IBR stage and having trouble getting out of it. This limbo status is very vulnerable to economic downturns, both locally and at a national level.

In any case, these red flags has "tax payer bailout" all over it. The odds of it happening keeps rising every academic year.

 

[jokersmiles]

the prediction for 2015 was accurate, seems like the 1st year cost will reach 140K by 2017

 

[Lesley]

You're a complete idiot to attend USC or any dental school at that cost. That's atrocious and a disservice to ignorant students. I understand that most Californians never leave and most start out at wages at, or near a hygienist's salary.

It's not just USC. State universities including their dental schools are accepting more and more out of state students. A phenomena that is quickly increasing with each passing year. UW Dental School lists their current level of out of state dental students at approximately 15%. Other state dental schools have a larger number. Attached is the 2016-2017 estimated cost of attendance for UW Dental School/ 4 years in state including annual price increases and accruing interest is over $400,000/out of state including annual price increases and accruing interest is over $500,000 at graduation. This does not include any undergrad or future debt beyond initial DDS degree. UW is is a state university and their cost of attendance is not an anomaly.

https://dental.washington.edu/prospective-students/financial-aid/projected-costs/

 

[Cold Front]

the prediction for 2015 was accurate, seems like the 1st year cost will reach 140K by 2017

I actually created that USC graph online back in 2013. 3 years later, it's on the spot.

That graph would easily predict the USC first year total cost tuition to hit $142-145k in 3 years (2019). At the minimum.

 

[musicplease]

I actually created that USC graph online back in 2013. 3 years later, it's on the spot.

That graph would easily predict the USC first year total cost tuition to hit $142-145k in 3 years (2019). At the minimum.

what do you estimate the total cost of USC over 4 years to become by 2019?

 

[cmcner]

what do you estimate the total cost of USC over 4 years to become by 2019?

Use the compound interest formula (3% low end 5% hopefully high end). The formula is on google if you don't know it. Principle is the current cost compounding once a year.

 

[Cold Front]

what do you estimate the total cost of USC over 4 years to become by 2019?

If you are graduating in 2019, and bare the full cost, it would be $450-500k with the unsubsidized interest.

This number doesn't include residency or undergrad (that would add another $200-400k for the average student before interest). The national average for a 4 years undergrad costs $35-40k before interest these days. The average 2-3 years residency is about $150-200k (Endo, Ortho, etc) at most schools, but can be as high as $250-300k total cost.

I have a friend who is going back to school to do Endo this summer. It will cost him $200k just in tuition, and $50k in living costs, based on last year's numbers. He will probably pay more when tuition goes up again in few months.
http://www.bu.edu/dental/about/offices/registrar/tuition/postdoc-tuition/

 

[darknightzzz]

it is actually a scary time when a majority of dental school are reaching high 300 in just tuition and fee. over 450k if including living expense not counting interest yet.

should we expect a major shut down of schools soon?

 

[allantois]

it is actually a scary time when a majority of dental school are reaching high 300 in just tuition and fee. over 450k if including living expense not counting interest yet.

should we expect a major shut down of schools soon?

Half of pre-dents at my school are financially illiterate. Combined with a blind desire to be a dentist, you can't expect those individuals to make good life choices.

It's really a win-win for both schools and the government: school administrators get to assign themselves multi-million dollar bonuses and the government gets people on financial hook for life. Not to mention that the public gets an oversupply of dentists as the prices on services go down and corporations are happy with the abundance of potential employees as they too won't have to pay them as much. What's there not to like about this system?

 

[darknightzzz]

like someone stated above, I joined dentistry not because I want to help people, but because I see the profit and the lifestyle choices in it. and I can't do this with 400-500k debt. Luckily, I won't have this much debt.

It is just even scarier to speculate that in 5 or 6 years, few dental schools will be low 300 for tuition and fee (and this is considered cheap and good)

 

[Cold Front]

like someone stated above, I joined dentistry not because I want to help people, but because I see the profit and the lifestyle choices in it. and I can't do this with 400-500k debt. Luckily, I won't have this much debt.

It is just even scarier to speculate that in 5 or 6 years, few dental schools will be low 300 for tuition and fee (and this is considered cheap and good)

The cheapest schools will actually experience the biggest jump in tuition, since most of them are state funded schools, and states have experienced serious budget crisis and cut backs to fund schools since the 2008 recession.

Students are still deciding pretty blindly about the financial return of dental education. They don't realize the potential income to debt ratio has changed significantly over the last couple of decades.

I would give another 5-10 more application cycles before we start see the most expensive schools getting less applicants and finding it more difficult to fill their classes. From there, they could freeze tuition or be more creative to "wow" students during interviews to steer them to their program - Midwestern arizona program comes to mind.

 

[darknightzzz]

The cheapest schools will actually experience the biggest jump in tuition, since most of them are state funded schools, and states have experienced serious budget crisis and cut backs to fund schools since the 2008 recession.

Students are still deciding pretty blindly about the financial return of dental education. They don't realize the potential income to debt ratio has changed significantly over the last couple of decades.

I would give another 5-10 more application cycles before we start see the most expensive schools getting less applicants and finding it more difficult to fill their classes. From there, they could freeze tuition or be more creative to "wow" students during interviews to steer them to their program - Midwestern arizona program comes to mind.

But still, the state funded schools still charge lower expense than private schools, even in funding crisis time.

yea that is true. MWU-AZ price for next year compared to a matriculant 2 years ago already rises 4-5k. i don't really know where this is going to be heading. should people in the future just wait on state schools, or try to apply for military scholarship, or give up dental schools ?

 

[Cold Front]

But still, the state funded schools still charge lower expense than private schools, even in funding crisis time.

yea that is true. MWU-AZ price for next year compared to a matriculant 2 years ago already rises 4-5k. i don't really know where this is going to be heading. should people in the future just wait on state schools, or try to apply for military scholarship, or give up dental schools ?

The GOP town hall meeting tonight has Marc Rubio taking questions from the audience. A pre-dent entering dental school this fall asked him a question about her concerns in graduating with big debt. As "high as $500k" she said... And how did he respond? He completely winged it, and talked about how he himself was struggling with undergrad debt. Dental school debt is not undergrad debt, and this goes back to lack of financial knowledge in majority of students applying to some expensive schools.

Future students will become the IBR (income based repayment) generation, as there can only be limited spots for military scholarships. State schools will become more difficult to get in, they already are with higher academic GPA's needed than medical schools.

Just know that you will not be in that group, and "today is better than the future" in dental education cost right now.

 

[gatorfan99]

Absolutely horrible.. The thing is that these schools will keep raising their fees as long as there are (desperate) students somewhere willing to bite, under the illusion of some huge salary figure once they graduate. And we all know what happens next, they then fall pray to corporate dental once they graduate and crappy CE that promises them the world (i.e. "learn ortho in a weekend!") that no reasonable person would agree (being desperate in debt can push some people's common sense and ethics down the gutter).

Let's not get started on the ridiculous number of dental schools that opened in the last 5-10 years...

Another reason why I'm glad I chose the path I did.. We are largely shielded from this madness

 

[Daurang]

Absolutely horrible.. The thing is that these schools will keep raising their fees as long as there are (desperate) students somewhere willing to bite, under the illusion of some huge salary figure once they graduate. And we all know what happens next, they then fall pray to corporate dental once they graduate and crappy CE that promises them the world (i.e. "learn ortho in a weekend!") that no reasonable person would agree (being desperate in debt can push some people's common sense and ethics down the gutter).

Let's not get started on the ridiculous number of dental schools that opened in the last 5-10 years...

More states, even those already among the most saturated, are promoting the idea of stand alone dental hygienist practice and dental therapists. They're all going after the money under the pretense of public health, and I'm sure most dentists will lose out financially.

 

[cmcner]

Absolutely horrible.. The thing is that these schools will keep raising their fees as long as there are (desperate) students somewhere willing to bite, under the illusion of some huge salary figure once they graduate. And we all know what happens next, they then fall pray to corporate dental once they graduate and crappy CE that promises them the world (i.e. "learn ortho in a weekend!") that no reasonable person would agree (being desperate in debt can push some people's common sense and ethics down the gutter).

Let's not get started on the ridiculous number of dental schools that opened in the last 5-10 years...

Another reason why I'm glad I chose the path I did.. We are largely shielded from this madness

I don't know why no one talks about regulating the schools. They have billion dollar endowments and get tax exempt status and have no requirement to justify tuition or reduce student debt for the money the students produce for the school in clinic.

 

[gatorfan99]

I don't know why no one talks about regulating the schools. They have billion dollar endowments and get tax exempt status and have no requirement to justify tuition or reduce student debt for the money the students produce for the school in clinic.

I think its total lack of knowledge in the part of the lawmakers about our reality in dentistry - this is a great reason why dentists/dental students need to be involved in large organizations (such as the ADA, etc) and lobby these politicians in large numbers..

 

[Silent Cool]

I don't know why no one talks about regulating the schools. They have billion dollar endowments and get tax exempt status and have no requirement to justify tuition or reduce student debt for the money the students produce for the school in clinic.

The point of the federal student loan program is to get revenue for the federal government. It is in the best interest of the government to maintain "infinite" lending for the purpose of indentured servitude.

 

[allantois]

I think its total lack of knowledge in the part of the lawmakers about our reality in dentistry - this is a great reason why dentists/dental students need to be involved in large organizations (such as the ADA, etc) and lobby these politicians in large numbers..

Half of congress are free-market fundamentalists, why would they want to regulate anything?

 

[gatorfan99]

Half of congress are free-market fundamentalists, why would they want to regulate anything?

Because, IMHO, run away debt is the root cause of all the issues we are having in dentistry today - from the "cowboy generalist" phenomenon to the slippery slope towards blatantly unethical behavior >> and now we are falling into the realm of patient safety...

 

[cmcner]

Half of congress are free-market fundamentalists, why would they want to regulate anything?

Not for profits like universities aren't supposed to be in the same free market mentality as for profits, their tax designation is granted because they are supposed to be a public service. And they were fine with going after the for profit universities that started popping up

 

[Silent Cool]

More states, even those already among the most saturated, are promoting the idea of stand alone dental hygienist practice and dental therapists. They're all going after the money under the pretense of public health, and I'm sure most dentists will lose out financially.

Daurang, do you see the dental therapist gig taking off long term? Is it something that dentists should realistically be worried about?

 

[dentalcpa90]

Daurang, do you see the dental therapist gig taking off long term? Is it something that dentists should realistically be worried about?

Some dentists could look at it as another business opportunity instead of a problem. For the ones that own a practice, they could just hire a bunch of therapists and make a ton off of them while paying them nothing. So it could be good thing or bad thing depending who you are.