What are the REAL T10 medical schools by reputation/training/research opportunities?

[syntheticG43]

So, obviously, the US News rankings are utter nonsense (Stanford at #8, WashU at #11, UChicago at #20 lmao, etc).

I'm wondering what the actual "T10" medical institutions are by reputation, research opportunities for students, NIH funding, history, clinical training, etc. There will definitely be variation from person to person but, generally, I'm wondering what the consensus is.

From what I've gathered, these are the consensus T10 academic powerhouses in medicine.

Definitely T10: UCSF, Hopkins, Harvard, Penn, Stanford, Columbia, WashU, Duke

Could be T10: NYU, Pitt, Mayo, and maybe Yale or Vandy

I fully understand this is futile and, more or less, meaningless since once you are at the top of the prestige tower, there isn't really much difference between peer institutions. I'm more just asking out of curiosity.

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[Goro]

Ask ten people and you'll get 11 different answers.

 

[deleted555445]

I think the problem is there is no real answer. In the Law School world there is an agreed-upon T14 that everyone recognizes is a cutoff for a certain degree of prestige. In med school you could attend Harvard and be in the same MGH residency as someone from Tufts, attend Columbia and be outnumbered by the Einstein grads in your cohort at NYP. If staying in NY is important to you, you might choose Einstein over UCSD, even though everyone would tell you its a bad idea. There's really no agreed-upon ranking structure, and no agreed-upon cutoff for prestige. People will place cutoffs based on the school they attend. If you attend Harvard then there's no better school, if you go to NYU then its all about being T5, Duke its about being T10, Northwestern its about being T20, USC its T30, etc etc.

But to answer your question for fun, here is my top 10 based off nothing but the best 10 I could think of: Harvard, UCSF, Hopkins, Penn, Columbia, Michigan, Duke, NYU, WashU, Stanford.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

There are 10 T5 schools, 15 T15 schools; 30 T20 schools and so on

My subjective ranking

1. Harvard
2. Johns Hopkins
3. Stanford
4. UPenn
5. UCSF
6. Columbia
7. WUSTL
8. Duke
9. NYU
10. Yale

 

[GoSpursGo]

I fully understand this is futile and, more or less, meaningless

So why bother?

Also, the real answer is that it depends on what ultimate specialty you wind up going into.

 

[FluffyCat1212]

Oof, this was a toughie, but...

1) Hogwarts SOM
2) Best Medical School (of House of God fame)
3) Grey Sloan Memorial Hospital School of Medicine
4) The school I currently attend
5-8) every school that accepted me
9) UCLA, just because LA seems nice this time of year. No other reason.
10) the school that technically never rejected me. It has been over a year, so I'm just assuming I'm accepted at this point. I'm not sure if it's clear, but I like schools that accept me.

That should do it!

 

[GoSpursGo]

Oof, this was a toughie, but...

1) Hogwarts SOM
2) Best Medical School (of House of God fame)
3) Grey Sloan Memorial Hospital School of Medicine
4) The school I currently attend
5-8) every school that accepted me
9) UCLA, just because LA seems nice this time of year. No other reason.
10) the school that technically never rejected me. It has been over a year, so I'm just assuming I'm accepted at this point. I'm not sure if it's clear, but I like schools that accept me.

That should do it!

So why didn’t you matriculate to Hogwarts?

 

[sean80439]

So, obviously, the US News rankings are utter nonsense (Stanford at #8, WashU at #11, UChicago at #20 lmao, etc).

I'm wondering what the actual "T10" medical institutions are by reputation, research opportunities for students, NIH funding, history, clinical training, etc. There will definitely be variation from person to person but, generally, I'm wondering what the consensus is.

From what I've gathered, these are the consensus T10 academic powerhouses in medicine.

Definitely T10: UCSF, Hopkins, Harvard, Penn, Stanford, Columbia, WashU, Duke

Could be T10: NYU, Pitt, Mayo, and maybe Yale or Vandy

I fully understand this is futile and, more or less, meaningless since once you are at the top of the prestige tower, there isn't really much difference between peer institutions. I'm more just asking out of curiosity.

Who cares.

 

[TheKingfish]

So, obviously, the US News rankings are utter nonsense (Stanford at #8, WashU at #11, UChicago at #20 lmao, etc).

I'm wondering what the actual "T10" medical institutions are by reputation, research opportunities for students, NIH funding, history, clinical training, etc. There will definitely be variation from person to person but, generally, I'm wondering what the consensus is.

From what I've gathered, these are the consensus T10 academic powerhouses in medicine.

Definitely T10: UCSF, Hopkins, Harvard, Penn, Stanford, Columbia, WashU, Duke

Could be T10: NYU, Pitt, Mayo, and maybe Yale or Vandy

I fully understand this is futile and, more or less, meaningless since once you are at the top of the prestige tower, there isn't really much difference between peer institutions. I'm more just asking out of curiosity.

There are 10 T5 schools, 15 T15 schools; 30 T20 schools and so on

My subjective ranking

1. Harvard
2. Johns Hopkins
3. Stanford
4. UPenn
5. UCSF
6. Columbia
7. WUSTL
8. Duke
9. NYU
10. Yale

What?! No Michigan?! Between this and not making to the Final Four in March Madness it’s getting a little depressing in A2

In all seriousness though, like everyone else here is saying, the only consensus is that there is no consensus. Any MD program can get you where you need to go if you put in the work. If you’re attending a prestigious school and you’re spending time nitpicking whether it counts as a T10/20/30, then you’re probably not taking time to fully use the resources available to you at that institution.

 

[deleted1065184]

There's definitely no consensus, and I actually think a person's subjective T10 tells you more about their age and where they're from than anything else lol.

But for funsies, here's mine (based on research funding/prowess):

1) Harvard
2) Hopkins
3) UCSF
4) Penn/WashU
6) Stanford
7) Duke
8) Columbia
9) Yale
10) Michigan/Washington

I couldn't pick just 10, but USNWR rarely does so why should I? 😉

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

No mention of the CFP???

It was tough choosing between Michigan and Yale but my username might give a hint to which school I’m closer to haha

What?! No Michigan?! Between this and not making to the Final Four in March Madness it’s getting a little depressing in A2

In all seriousness though, like everyone else here is saying, the only consensus is that there is no consensus. Any MD program can get you where you need to go if you put in the work. If you’re attending a prestigious school and you’re spending time nitpicking whether it counts as a T10/20/30, then you’re probably not taking time to fully use the resources available to you at that institution.

 

[TheKingfish]

No mention of the CFP???

It was tough choosing between Michigan and Yale but my username might give a hint to which school I’m closer to haha

Hey that’s very fair. My username might give you a hint as to why I’m the only person on earth who would call LSU a T30

 

[LizzyM]

There are data. Make your own top10 by listing the variables important to you, giving them each equal weight or come up with a weighing scheme, acquire the data, plug it in and you’ll have your list.

Most people won’t do this. They’ll accept others’ values or base the list in their own biases regardless of data.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Hey that’s very fair. My username might give you a hint as to why I’m the only person on earth who would call LSU a T30

Hahah there is a good documentary about Huey Long on PBS

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

there's no concensus about some schools on people's list. But there are consensuses on several schools here (HMS, UCSF, Hopkins, and Penn).EVERYONE would include those in their top10.. So I don't get why people make it sound like it's so vague about which schools are definitely the very top ones..

 

[FluffyCat1212]

So why didn’t you matriculate to Hogwarts?

Rejected. Apparently, I'm a squib.

 

[imidazzle92]

The difference isn't necessarily in prestige, as you mention in your post, but in the strength of the departments at the schools. Can make a big impact to work with/get an LOR from someone well known in a field (especially if it's a smaller field)

 

[proudofmykids]

OP- you indicate “utter nonsense” and mention history in the consideration?
Independently, you have to decide how much value historic ranking is?
Stanford didn’t break T5 until 2012 for example, and . U Washington was in T10 for 16 of last 23 years.

BUT - below is really what you are looking for. Toward the right of the table are recent averages. I don’t take credit for this aggregation, that goes to @ktpremed .

Historic USNWR Medical School Rankings

 

[NegativeMargin]

In these discussions people always argue over their top 10, but I'd love to see people argue over their top 30. Like at what point, what threshold, is someone creating a separation between these most elite schools and the still good but not elite schools. Even if it is subjective, the metrics themselves should be pretty standardized. And because that barely gets touched on, the discussion itself still has room to take place, no matter how much it annoys some people.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

i think that Case, UVA, Emory tier schools are where the prestige Bump really starts to fall off a cliff in most cases. If you look at say the match lists of Case Western vs Jefferson there is a huge difference but when you look at Jefferson’s list vs say a school that’s ranked 85, there is much less of a difference

 

[Goro]

Oof, this was a toughie, but...

1) Hogwarts SOM
2) Best Medical School (of House of God fame)
3) Grey Sloan Memorial Hospital School of Medicine
4) The school I currently attend
5-8) every school that accepted me
9) UCLA, just because LA seems nice this time of year. No other reason.
10) the school that technically never rejected me. It has been over a year, so I'm just assuming I'm accepted at this point. I'm not sure if it's clear, but I like schools that accept me.

That should do it!

What about Hollywood Upstairs, or St Swithens?

 

[effectedtag]

i think that Case, UVA, Emory tier schools are where the prestige Bump really starts to fall off a cliff in most cases. If you look at say the match lists of Case Western vs Jefferson there is a huge difference but when you look at Jefferson’s list vs say a school that’s ranked 85, there is much less of a difference

That is true but also Jeff really benefits in surgical subs because of Wills and Rothman. This year alone they matched 29 people combined with Ortho and Optho.

 

[LizzyM]

Keep in mind that with match lists you have the schools that have the goal of creating the physician equivalents of A Brave New World's Alphas and Betas, etc. Not every school is choosing applicants who they hope will be destined to be subspecialists in high paying specialties or medical school physician-leaders. Some schools actually have a mission of training individuals to be primary care providers with a focus on historically underserved communities.

 

[efle]

I generally agree with the surveyed PD's for first ~10:

Hopkins, HMS, UCSF
Penn, WashU, Stanford, Michigan
Duke, Columbia

For ~20 would include:

UCLA, NYU, Pitt, Mayo
Cornell, Vandy, Northwestern, U of WA
Yale, UTSW, Emory, U Chicago

 

[nimbus]

The real top 10 come up frequently in this roster.

https://www.hss.edu/files/HSS-Orthopaedic-Residents-2021-2022.pdf

 

[efle]

The real top 10 come up frequently in this roster.

https://www.hss.edu/files/HSS-Orthopaedic-Residents-2021-2022.pdf

And in my favorite SDN meme, this top program in Manhattan has not a single NYU match. Ranking confirmed fake news smh

 

[nimbus]

Keep in mind that with match lists you have the schools that have the goal of creating the physician equivalents of A Brave New World's Alphas and Betas, etc. Not every school is choosing applicants who they hope will be destined to be subspecialists in high paying specialties or medical school physician-leaders. Some schools actually have a mission of training individuals to be primary care providers with a focus on historically underserved communities.

I don’t think any schools in the 2nd category are striving to be ranked in the top 10. They are doing their own thing and not paying any attention to rankings.

 

[nimbus]

And in my favorite SDN meme, this top program in Manhattan has not a single NYU match. Ranking confirmed fake news smh

Yep. Everybody knows harvard/hopkins/Penn/Stanford/Columbia historically have had better matches than nyu.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

i have no ties to NYU but aren’t these matches from classes that matriculated before free tuition was announced? In other words, one can assume that fewer top students make up this year’s class compared to others

 

[bonedoc5576]

Historically, medical care was provided by the village barber with bloodletting

 

[KnightDoc]

i have no ties to NYU but aren’t these matches from classes that matriculated before free tuition was announced? In other words, one can assume that fewer top students make up this year’s class compared to others

This^^^^. People should come back in a few years and see if things don't change. Presumably, the same rock stars who would have been getting all those awesome matches, at all those awesome schools they would have attended before NYU lured them away with free tuition, will not lose their super powers once they enter the hallowed halls of NYU.

At least I'm sure that was the plan. It's too soon to declare it a failure before seeing how those classes do.

The class that entered in 2019 was the first. (Technically, the class that entered in 2018 was the first, but they didn't know it until the White Coat Ceremony.) If NYU's matches starting next year don't compare to Harvard, Penn, Hopkins, etc., then people can start to talk.

Until then, you're just reviewing history before NYU did something to change the paradigm. People said they'd never be able to lure people away from the "better" schools with mere money, because you just can't put a price on their awesomeness.

Now people are saying those very same people won't be able to match as well, by virtue of the fact they are sullying themselves by association with NYU. I wouldn't be so fast to reach that conclusion.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

This^^^^. People should come back in a few years and see if things don't change. Presumably, the same rock stars who would have been getting all those awesome matches, at all those awesome schools they would have attended before NYU lured them away with free tuition, will not lose their super powers once they enter the hallowed halls of NYU.

At least I'm sure that was the plan. It's too soon to declare it a failure before seeing how those classes do.

The class that entered in 2019 was the first. (Technically, the class that entered in 2018 was the first, but they didn't know it until the White Coat Ceremony.) If NYU's matches starting next year don't compare to Harvard, Penn, Hopkins, etc., then people can start to talk.

Until then, you're just reviewing history before NYU did something to change the paradigm. People said they'd never be able to lure people away from the "better" schools with mere money, because you just can't put a price on their awesomeness.

Now people are saying those very same people won't be able to match as well, by virtue of the fact they are sullying themselves by association with NYU. I wouldn't be so fast to reach that conclusion.

The presumption that the best premed makes the best medical student is absurd.. medical school is a totally different ball game. So what you had a LM of 83 or WARS of 103. Everyone starts on a clean slate. It’s a professional school and a lot of success depends on connections and contacts. Just because NYU gives full tuitions, it doesn’t mean their students will get equal access to top people all of a sudden, unless NYU simultaneously recruits top researchers and clinicians to mentor their students…

Remember the inaugural class of Kaiser?! All the hypes.. people turned down full rides at T5 to go there… now they all regret. There’s no free lunch in this world…

Prestige of a school is just a proxy of its available resources. I don’t think t5 students are any better than t50 students, but they get to have top people to vouch for them. It’s the same in every profession.

 

[LizzyM]

The irony is that the popular trope is that people go into high paying subspecialties rather than primary care because they have these onerous loan payments. The idea was supposed to be that these "best and the brightest" would get a free ride at a good school and then increase the ranks of the primary care providers because they didn't need to choose a specialty based on salary.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

That was never going to happen. Even rural schools that put a huge impact of rural backgrounds still see huge rates of graduates moving to large cities.

The only way to substantially boost the # of people going into primary care or rural medicine is through economic coercion.

 

[LizzyM]

That was never going to happen. Even rural schools that put a huge impact of rural backgrounds still see huge rates of graduates moving to large cities.

The only way to substantially boost the # of people going into primary care or rural medicine is through economic coercion.

In other words, for it to pay well and to pay even better than the traditional ROAD to riches.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

In other words, for it to pay well and to pay even better than the traditional ROAD to riches.

i feel like there already is some of this going on. Looked at salaries for various specialties in NYC vs rural areas and even an internist in the Midwest or Southeast can come close to making as much as specialists in the Northeast or California

They’re also more likely to pay loans for you in less desired regions

 

[LizzyM]

Yes, the trick has always been to find a way to incentivize people to practice primary care in inner city clinics and rural communities.
M4s may not know that primary care work in Nowheresville County pays as well as specialty services in Boston or New York but the problem for many people is having to live in Nowheresville. Inner city work does have the advantage of being able to live in a "better" area and commute in but the immediate environment of the clinic may feel unsafe and social determinants of health loom large which can make doctoring more challenging. For some people, "you couldn't pay me enough to work in those conditions". The trick may be to find people who have a missionary's zeal to work with those communities either because they love the people and relate to them or because they feel drawn to places and patients that (almost) no one wants.

 

[chssoccer7]

Rejected. Apparently, I'm a squib.

It's hard to keep up with the Hermione Granger gunners of the Hogwarts SOM world.

 

[DZ2106]

Yes, the trick has always been to find a way to incentivize people to practice primary care in inner city clinics and rural communities.
M4s may not know that primary care work in Nowheresville County pays as well as specialty services in Boston or New York but the problem for many people is having to live in Nowheresville. Inner city work does have the advantage of being able to live in a "better" area and commute in but the immediate environment of the clinic may feel unsafe and social determinants of health loom large which can make doctoring more challenging. For some people, "you couldn't pay me enough to work in those conditions". The trick may be to find people who have a missionary's zeal to work with those communities either because they love the people and relate to them or because they feel drawn to places and patients that (almost) no one wants.

The only way to get people to go to rural areas in the current economic climate is to make them sign binding primary care contracts. Otherwise, no one is going to go here unless primary care payouts become obscene. A 500k salary is not the same to a 250k salary as a 100k salary to a 50k salary

Or, one theory I've been thinking about is allowing internists in rural areas to also serve in other specialties like dermatology. That can give them some opportunity for private clinical work in a specialty that they wouldn't have otherwise had the opportunity to practice in, if they had stayed in the city

 

[LizzyM]

The only way to get people to go to rural areas in the current economic climate is to make them sign binding primary care contracts. Otherwise, no one is going to go here unless primary care payouts become obscene. A 500k salary is not the same to a 250k salary as a 100k salary to a 50k salary

Or, one theory I've been thinking about is allowing internists in rural areas to also serve in other specialties like dermatology. That can give them some opportunity for private clinical work in a specialty that they wouldn't have otherwise had the opportunity to practice in, if they had stayed in the city

I'm trying to figure out how this works. Physicians are licensed to practice medicine and surgery. They are usually limited by malpractice insurance to limit their scope of practice to their area of expertise as evidenced by residency /fellowship training, board certification, and continuing education. A family medicine doc is trained to provide first line diagnosis and therapy for some derm problems such as acne, warts, and other common conditions but not board certified in derm. Someone with a derm problem sees the primary care doc in town and gets treatment or gets referred to the big city where there are board certified dermatologists available for something that does not respond to first line therapy.

How would having a derm practice on the side be different than what is happening now where a primary care doc, who may be in a private group practice or a private solo practice (depending on the size of the population, etc) is caring for everyone from pre-natal through adolescents, adulthood and old age, including end of life care.

 

[nimbus]

The irony is that the popular trope is that people go into high paying subspecialties rather than primary care because they have these onerous loan payments. The idea was supposed to be that these "best and the brightest" would get a free ride at a good school and then increase the ranks of the primary care providers because they didn't need to choose a specialty based on salary.

It’s funny because NYU still does not have a department of family medicine in the year 2022. They do have a primary care division in their IM department, but that is not the same. It is obvious that primary care is not a priority at many highly ranked schools.

 

[nimbus]

i feel like there already is some of this going on. Looked at salaries for various specialties in NYC vs rural areas and even an internist in the Midwest or Southeast can come close to making as much as specialists in the Northeast or California

They’re also more likely to pay loans for you in less desired regions

City slicker here. What are you going to do with all that money if you don’t have Whole Foods or expensive sushi bars nearby? A dearth of good schools for the kids? Or if you’re not white and would rather not live in a sea of Trumplicans?


In the past, one of the few ways to get people to practice in rural areas was through visa programs for FMGs. I went to school with many Asian and middle eastern kids who’s parents were physicians in rural upstate NY, Iowa, Georgia, Nebraska, Wisconsin, etc. But guess where the kids live and practice now? In big coastal metros.

The only long term solution to the rural doctor shortage is to improve the amenities, cultural opportunities, and diversity in the rural areas. We only get one chance to live our lives.

 

[nimbus]

The only way to get people to go to rural areas in the current economic climate is to make them sign binding primary care contracts. Otherwise, no one is going to go here unless primary care payouts become obscene. A 500k salary is not the same to a 250k salary as a 100k salary to a 50k salary

Or, one theory I've been thinking about is allowing internists in rural areas to also serve in other specialties like dermatology. That can give them some opportunity for private clinical work in a specialty that they wouldn't have otherwise had the opportunity to practice in, if they had stayed in the city

1. In many derm practices these days, you are likely to be initially seen by a PA. If you have a simple problem, there is a fair chance that you will never see a doctor.

2. Cash pay cosmetic “derm” is the Wild West even in big cities. There is no regulatory barrier to entry for doctors. You just need to attend a few weekend Allergan courses. The barrier is actually financial because you’ll bleed money until things get up and running. I have a friend, board certified anesthesiologist who transitioned to a 100% Botox/filler/laser practice. He has been able to master marketing…(yelp, social media, billboards,etc) for which we have no training. His practice has boomed, he’s hired multiple NPs to staff multiple offices. And now he lives the Aston/g wagon/boats/heliskiing lifestyle. I don’t think this would be possible in a rural area because there would not be as much demand.

 

[LizzyM]

City slicker here. What are you going to do with all that money if you don’t have Whole Foods or expensive sushi bars nearby? A dirth of good schools for the kids? Or if you’re not white and would rather not live in a sea of Trumplicans?


In the past, one of the few ways to get people to practice in rural areas was through visa programs for FMGs. I went to school with many Asian and middle eastern kids who’s parents were physicians in rural upstate NY, Iowa, Georgia, Nebraska, Wisconsin, etc. But guess where the kids live and practice now? In big coastal metros.

The only long term solution to the rural doctor shortage is to improve the amenities, cultural opportunities, and diversity in the rural areas. We only get one chance to live our lives.

There's always boarding school for the kids. But unless you brought a spouse with you to Nowheresville, it may be difficult to find one and then have kids. That's another reason that young physicians do not feel drawn to rural areas.

 

[nimbus]

There's always boarding school for the kids. But unless you brought a spouse with you to Nowheresville, it may be difficult to find one and then have kids. That's another reason that young physicians do not feel drawn to rural areas.

That’s funny. A couple of the kids I’m thinking of attended boarding school.

 

[deleted555445]

City slicker here. What are you going to do with all that money if you don’t have Whole Foods or expensive sushi bars nearby? A dirth of good schools for the kids? Or if you’re not white and would rather not live in a sea of Trumplicans?


In the past, one of the few ways to get people to practice in rural areas was through visa programs for FMGs. I went to school with many Asian and middle eastern kids who’s parents were physicians in rural upstate NY, Iowa, Georgia, Nebraska, Wisconsin, etc. But guess where the kids live and practice now? In big coastal metros.

The only long term solution to the rural doctor shortage is to improve the amenities, cultural opportunities, and diversity in the rural areas. We only get one chance to live our lives.

You could spend your money on things that are actually worth their price

 

[KnightDoc]

The presumption that the best premed makes the best medical student is absurd.. medical school is a totally different ball game. So what you had a LM of 83 or WARS of 103. Everyone starts on a clean slate. It’s a professional school and a lot of success depends on connections and contacts. Just because NYU gives full tuitions, it doesn’t mean their students will get equal access to top people all of a sudden, unless NYU simultaneously recruits top researchers and clinicians to mentor their students…

Remember the inaugural class of Kaiser?! All the hypes.. people turned down full rides at T5 to go there… now they all regret. There’s no free lunch in this world…

Prestige of a school is just a proxy of its available resources. I don’t think t5 students are any better than t50 students, but they get to have top people to vouch for them. It’s the same in every profession.

Yes, I do remember Kaiser. NYU is not a brand new school started by a health system to create a pipeline of doctors to work in it. NYU was a T10-20 that decided to use money to pull the best and brightest away from its peers. It seems to be working, but the proof will be in the matches, starting next year.

This ultimately comes down to nature versus nurture. If you believe HMS students only achieve their success because they attend HMS, I really won't be able to say anything to convince you otherwise. It is correct that a star can be found anywhere, but I think it is absurd to argue that T5 classes, in the aggregate, are not objectively, significantly better than T50 classes, by any metric you want to use -- stats, ECs, anything. If for no other reason than the best and brightest are attracted by all the things you love about these schools, and the schools in turn have the luxury of being able to select them over their less talented peers.

I happen to believe that the fact that people do great things coming from the Drexels and NYMCs of the world shows that a lack of resources is not determinative of outcomes for superstars. Top schools have spectacular matches because they happen to have great classes, pretty much from top to bottom. Not because they have the ability to take any random schmuck out of the AMCAS pool and turn them into a rock star by virtue of association. After all, even the very best schools have people that SOAP every year. Getting an academic job in medicine is no easy feat, anywhere in the country. As a result, there are top people to vouch for top candidates everywhere, not just at Harvard and Hopkins!

NYU has been a T10 school for a while now, before free tuition. We'll see if their ability to now poach some of the top of the top from places like Harvard and Penn, starting with a clean slate, allows them to take their matches to the next level.

 

[nimbus]

You could spend your money on things that are actually worth their price

Horses, tractors, barns, and land have their appeal too

 

[Mr.Smile12]

City slicker here. What are you going to do with all that money if you don’t have Whole Foods or expensive sushi bars nearby? A dirth of good schools for the kids? Or if you’re not white and would rather not live in a sea of Trumplicans?


In the past, one of the few ways to get people to practice in rural areas was through visa programs for FMGs. I went to school with many Asian and middle eastern kids who’s parents were physicians in rural upstate NY, Iowa, Georgia, Nebraska, Wisconsin, etc. But guess where the kids live and practice now? In big coastal metros.

The only long term solution to the rural doctor shortage is to improve the amenities, cultural opportunities, and diversity in the rural areas. We only get one chance to live our lives.

Not every rural underserved area is farmland Trump country, and there are rural patients who come from diverse backgrounds. Culture may spread better with high speed internet but each town needs to approve its importance and maintain it. Same thing with physicians. Rural underserved were/are vehemently anti vaccine during COVID-19 even if they appreciate the relatively free care they were getting.

My own thought was to require 2 years at least of service similar to NHSC (doctors, dentists, pharmacists, nurses) before going to the Match and specializing (and it won't ever happen). It surprises me how much of the country is medically underserved.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Yes, I do remember Kaiser. NYU is not a brand new school started by a health system to create a pipeline of doctors to work in it. NYU was a T10-20 that decided to use money to pull the best and brightest away from its peers. It seems to be working, but the proof will be in the matches, starting next year.

This ultimately comes down to nature versus nurture. If you believe HMS students only achieve their success because they attend HMS, I really won't be able to say anything to convince you otherwise. It is correct that a star can be found anywhere, but I think it is absurd to argue that T5 classes, in the aggregate, are not objectively, significantly better than T50 classes, by any metric you want to use -- stats, ECs, anything. If for no other reason than the best and brightest are attracted by all the things you love about these schools, and the schools in turn have the luxury of being able to select them over their less talented peers.

I happen to believe that the fact that people do great things coming from the Drexels and NYMCs of the world shows that a lack of resources is not determinative of outcomes for superstars. Top schools have spectacular matches because they happen to have great classes, pretty much from top to bottom. Not because they have the ability to take any random schmuck out of the AMCAS pool and turn them into a rock star by virtue of association. After all, even the very best schools have people that SOAP every year. Getting an academic job in medicine is no easy feat, anywhere in the country. As a result, there are top people to vouch for top candidates everywhere, not just at Harvard and Hopkins!

NYU has been a T10 school for a while now, before free tuition. We'll see if their ability to now poach some of the top of the top from places like Harvard and Penn, starting with a clean slate, allows them to take their matches to the next level.

It's not what I think. It's what I KNOW. I am around these "super stars" everyday. Trust me, they are not special as you think. Most of us figured out the admissions game well so we are where we are. Student quality between a T5 and a T50 is almost indistinguishable. Stats are not that indicative of much other than you work hard and are beyond a certain level of intelligence threshold. It's not nature vs. nurture. It's hard enough to even get into an unranked school. So once you are in any USMD program, you are already beyond the threshold that's required for any level of success in medicine. So it's all nurture from there on. T5 schools are special but their students are not.