What can I do to get in? Undergrad considering DO

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Veritas6

Veritas6

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Hello, this is my first time posting. I had some questions about application requirements for my situation. I am aware of the general requirements to apply to med school.

Currently, I am a junior with a 3.46 overall GPA, 3.31 BCPM GPA, and 3.96 Non-Science GPA. I still need to finish about 12-13 more science courses (including the 4 for this semester), with one being ochem 2 (which I got a C+ in ochem 1 last semester = not my subject haha). I cannot take the MCAT this year but will next year when I have passed all the required classes.

Specifically, I am not sure if my "Drugs and Behavior" class (psychology classification: PSY-B) applies to my science (BCPM) GPA. This link: Overall and BCPM GPA | Prospective Doctor states Pharmacy and Pharmacology courses do not count towards a BCPM GPA. I didn't include this class in my listed BCPM GPA. I wasn't sure if this class counts as a Pharmacology course "officially".

The link does say Neuroscience classes are included (it's added under the BIOL section in the link) but my Neuro classes have psychology classifications (PSY-B as before). I did add the one Neuro course I took in my listed BCPM GPA. Are courses included in the BCPM GPA based on the title of the course and not necessarily on the classification?

Lastly, what can I do to stand out? I am planning on being elected President for my non-science organization and am interested in 2 year missionary work after I graduate (2 year gap). I will be starting work at my church's homeless soup kitchen this weekend. I am currently in a school year neuro research internship ending this semester. I have some ideas for letters of rec, but about how many hours of shadowing would I need (I only have a few)? If there is anymore advice I am open to reading it! Thank you all for your help!
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I was a neuroscience major in undergrad, so some of my classes were also psych listed courses but they all counted for the BCPM. It depends on the content of the course, I'd say your drugs and behavior course counts as a BCPM since my school had a psychopharmacology course that counted at BCPM. I noticed you were planning on taking gap years which is always looked upon favorably by admissions especially if it is service or research orientated. It's good that you're in research, the more the better TBH, but u have a good start. You should shoot for about 50 hours of shadowing and a mix of different specialities that interest you. Overall what you're doing is good so far, but really focus on academics and the MCAT which will be the main thing admissions look for. But your volunteering and research should give you stuff to talk about during interviews. You still have a lot of time since u mentioned you're gap years, so really just focus on getting the best academics first, MCAT, then your extra curriculars. Best of luck to you, if u have any more questions I'll be happy to try to answer them.
 
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Kingman123 said:
You still have a lot of time since u mentioned you're gap years, so really just focus on getting the best academics first, MCAT, then your extra curriculars
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Thank you, that is very helpful! How long does an MCAT score last? I heard it expires after 3 years, is that accurate? If so, I am planning on taking the test Spring 2021, and then it should still be active after 2 years of service work. Also, for shadowing, should I focus 50 hours only on physicians? I have a handful of hours from shadowing 2 pharmacists and 1 nurse in the ICU. Thanks for your help!
 
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You should take the mcat closest to when you will apply so that you have the most studying. Yeah I think it lasts for 2-3 years at least. For shadowing focus on physicians, I don't think med schools will care about the pharmacy or nursing shadowing since it's not entirely relevant to med school. It's good experience but shadowing physicians is more important.
 
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GPA is okay so far but make sure you do well in these future classes so you are not trending downwards. I would not worry too much about that one class being included in your BCPM GPA but I would assume it would be accepted. The MCAT is huge and you want to be sure that you don't wait too long to start studying. Things happen and could delay your whole application by another year which sucks but happened to me. As far as experiences go, do things that you are interested in. Most applicants are doing very similar things and it's how you represent those on your application to reflect you as a future medical student and doctor. The most important thing with experiences is that you are committed and they hold some meaning. You can flip any experience to stand out depending on how you write about it and I would keep that in mind when you start looking. Shadowing other health care workers is essential for yourself to understand that you are picking the right profession to go into but I would not include them in your med school application just because it's hard to write about these. Shadowing a physician is more important so that you saw what it was like to be a ...(i.e. Radiologist) for a week and like the idea of being a doctor. If you find a great doc to shadow they can be also be somewhat of a mentor and maybe write a nice letter of rec haha. Good luck to you and keep striving!
 
Veritas6 said:
Hello, this is my first time posting. I had some questions about application requirements for my situation. I am aware of the general requirements to apply to med school.

Currently, I am a junior with a 3.46 overall GPA, 3.31 BCPM GPA, and 3.96 Non-Science GPA. I still need to finish about 12-13 more science courses (including the 4 for this semester), with one being ochem 2 (which I got a C+ in ochem 1 last semester = not my subject haha). I cannot take the MCAT this year but will next year when I have passed all the required classes.

Specifically, I am not sure if my "Drugs and Behavior" class (psychology classification: PSY-B) applies to my science (BCPM) GPA. This link: Overall and BCPM GPA | Prospective Doctor states Pharmacy and Pharmacology courses do not count towards a BCPM GPA. I didn't include this class in my listed BCPM GPA. I wasn't sure if this class counts as a Pharmacology course "officially".

The link does say Neuroscience classes are included (it's added under the BIOL section in the link) but my Neuro classes have psychology classifications (PSY-B as before). I did add the one Neuro course I took in my listed BCPM GPA. Are courses included in the BCPM GPA based on the title of the course and not necessarily on the classification?

Lastly, what can I do to stand out? I am planning on being elected President for my non-science organization and am interested in 2 year missionary work after I graduate (2 year gap). I will be starting work at my church's homeless soup kitchen this weekend. I am currently in a school year neuro research internship ending this semester. I have some ideas for letters of rec, but about how many hours of shadowing would I need (I only have a few)? If there is anymore advice I am open to reading it! Thank you all for your help!
Click to expand...
For DO schools, shadow a DO and get LOR from same.

See OMM/OMT in action

Getting two DO LORs really stands out!
 
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As long as you get at least a 507 on the MCAT you should be good. 510 ideally.
 
Deecee2DO said:
510 isn't necessary for DO. A 505+ is ideal, 500+ will get you IIs and probably acceptance somewhere contingent upon your GPA and if you apply broadly
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I feel like with increasing medical school competition, especially with the good DO schools, a 505-510 is the requirement for an II. Just my opinion on the way things are seeming tho (Just want OP to shoot for best of the best )
:)
 
Yeah. I have friends with 507 and a 3.5 who didn't get any interviews. DO competition is increasing. I had a 3.53 sGPA in undergrad and a 3.5 in a SMP + 510 MCAT and got 3 interviews out of the 12 DO schools I applied. I would say If your GPA is under a 3.5 you should aim for a minimum 507.
 
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comeback_willy said:
Yeah. I have friends with 507 and a 3.5 who didn't get any interviews. DO competition is increasing. I had a 3.53 sGPA in undergrad and a 3.5 in a SMP + 510 MCAT and got 3 interviews out of the 12 DO schools I applied. I would say If your GPA is under a 3.5 you should aim for a minimum 507.
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I only applied to good DO schools for reference.
 
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forums.studentdoctor.net

Advice from someone with a 496 MCAT Acceptance

Do not worry, friend. I am not listening, they are all only explaining the negatives of people like you and I. They are not discussing the great, successful physicians that arose from people like us. And regardless, I am already accepted.English is my second language, so I ended up taking the...
forums.studentdoctor.net forums.studentdoctor.net

I would read that for a pretty decent idea of what you need to be doing.

You can never go wrong with a 500 MCAT, 3.5+ gpa in science and cumulative gpa (not explicitly necessary so for you, just try to ace your next 13 ish hours), 50+ hours of shadowing, and then - and listen cause this next part is important - extracurriculars and service activities that you are ACTUALLY passionate, never do it just because you can put it on a resume -> interviewers can see right through that. Do things because you care about it. That alone will set you so far about in your writing about it and when interviewers ask you questions about it.
 
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comeback_willy said:
Yeah. I have friends with 507 and a 3.5 who didn't get any interviews. DO competition is increasing. I had a 3.53 sGPA in undergrad and a 3.5 in a SMP + 510 MCAT and got 3 interviews out of the 12 DO schools I applied. I would say If your GPA is under a 3.5 you should aim for a minimum 507.
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2 years ago I got interviews at ATSU-KCOM, KCU, PNWU (no state connection), CUSOM, VCOM-CC and 6 other newer DO schools with a 3.7 and 500 (which was also my 4th MCAT attempt). Granted I'm also an immigrant/underrepresented, and I had a very compelling story in my PS. But I feel like other people with 500+ have also done fine getting IIs at DO schools.
 
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I guess maybe 510 is overkill for DO schools, but I was speaking from my experience being an Asian (overrepresented category unfortunately). But I'm certain, as people mentioned above, extra curriculars and such are very important and can offset a lower MCAT, at least for DO schools.
 
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There are students at my school with sub 500s and those with 522+. A 510 isn't necessary for DO, but it is helpful.
Received 8 ii this cycle with a trash GPA but good MCAT. It really is more than just numbers.

A good way to differentiate yourself on paper? Write well.
 
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DrStephenStrange said:
2 years ago I got interviews at ATSU-KCOM, KCU, PNWU (no state connection), CUSOM, VCOM-CC and 6 other newer DO schools with a 3.7 and 500 (which was also my 4th MCAT attempt). Granted I'm also an immigrant/underrepresented, and I had a very compelling story in my PS. But I feel like other people with 500+ have also done fine getting IIs at DO schools.
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This is why listening to med students rather than a bunch of neurotic premeds who get sucked into some of these premed forums and think they need a 528 to go to med school lolz. Premeds, this is SDN brainwashing you with incorrect info from people that haven't even gotten into or started med school yet. Listen to @DrStephenStrange
 
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With a 510 you should be applying mostly MD. Had a 505 3.1 gpa(3.9 masters) 10 interviews From DO schools

edit: also an orm (Asian)
 
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Yeah I applied mostly MD with a 3.53 sGPA and 3.55cGPA + 510 mcat and a 3.5 SMP GPA. Got rejected from 45 MD schools and got into 2 DO. Granted I am a California resident and a ORM.
 
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Deecee2DO said:
This is why listening to med students rather than a bunch of neurotic premeds who get sucked into some of these premed forums and think they need a 528 to go to med school lolz. Premeds, this is SDN brainwashing you with incorrect info from people that haven't even gotten into or started med school yet. Listen to @DrStephenStrange
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Man I’m nervous the poster a few posts up got rejected with a 3.5 and 507??
 
Startingover123 said:
Man I’m nervous the poster a few posts up got rejected with a 3.5 and 507??
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MCAT and GPA is not your whole application. Someone that appears entitled in their PS and secondaries, or someone with some red flags (maybe in their letters, IA, misdeaminors, lack of ECs ect...) will have trouble securing Interviews. With 3.3+ GPAs (science and cumulative) and a 500+ MCAT, I am fairly certain you will be able to get interviews at several DO schools as long you apply smartly and present yourself as a decent human being. The average for all matriculants at DO schools is ~3.5 and ~503 (check the data on the AACOM website). Here are the reported average MCAT for each school as of 2019 per ATSU-KCOM: Osteopathic Schools Ranked by MCAT
 
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To add to @DrStephenStrange; clearly I got accepted to schools over people who had better stats than I did: the key is to have a personality and let it show in your primary and secondary essays and in your interviews
 
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Startingover123 said:
Man I’m nervous the poster a few posts up got rejected with a 3.5 and 507??
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Never trust anecdotal data. Theres a lot of that on here. I was accepted with a 3.7 and a 497 MCAT i was the exception to the rule that doesnt mean I should go around saying omg i got in with a 497 you should be fine. This would be incorrect info. For the most part a 3.5+ and a 505+ MCAT should be more than fine for most if not all DO programs. Applying broadly is important
 
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Echoing some of the above. I had a 496 last cycle and a 3.59 cumulative and 3.52 science gpa, applied in October to only 4 schools and was accepted at 2.

It is so much more than numbers fam.
 
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Rogue42 said:
Echoing some of the above. I had a 496 last cycle and a 3.59 cumulative and 3.52 science gpa, applied in October to only 4 schools and was accepted at 2.

It is so much more than numbers fam.
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It is but you are a true outlier. Would never tell anyone to apply with a 496 but if you did thats rolling the dice aka not recommended but acceptance with those stats does happen just not a lot
 
Deecee2DO said:
It is but you are a true outlier. Would never tell anyone to apply with a 496 but if you did thats rolling the dice aka not recommended but acceptance with those stats does happen just not a lot
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I don’t think I’m as far as an outlier as you think. I go to one of the better DO schools in the country, and we have people with as low as 494 MCATS.

Would I recommend it? No, not even me, because I know it just makes things extremely difficult. But as long as you have a solid app, and can present yourself as a worthy medical school applicant, then you have a chance, and that’s all anyone needs.
 
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Deecee2DO said:
Never trust anecdotal data. Theres a lot of that on here. I was accepted with a 3.7 and a 497 MCAT i was the exception to the rule that doesnt mean I should go around saying omg i got in with a 497 you should be fine. This would be incorrect info. For the most part a 3.5+ and a 505+ MCAT should be more than fine for most if not all DO programs. Applying broadly is important
Click to expand...

I applied this cycle with 3.7 GPA, 3.72 sGPA and 510 MCAT, some of the better DO schools didn't even give me a response :D
 
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Kumorebi said:
what is the truth? good thing I'm a skeptic. 496 does not equal a 498.
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Kumorebi said:
what is the truth? good thing I'm a skeptic. 496 does not equal a 498.
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Truth is, when I made a 496, I didn’t want to tell anyone on this site what I made. For people just like you, for people like you who try to belittle an accidental capital S when you know dang well that it wasn’t meant to be. For people like you who go dig up a post from 2018.

Also, I didn’t say that I wasn’t an outlier. I simply said not as far as an outlier as people on this site make it out to be. Also, by your standards, anyone who does excessively well on the MCAT and gets in is also an outlier.

At the end of the day, you decided to take my numbers, and miss the point. You don’t NEED a 503 MCAT and a 3.7.

What you need is a hard work, passion, and dedication, you need to prove that you can take the MCAT and pass classes, you need to prove that you have given up your time to help others, you need to prove that you have seen the love of a doctor and it’s still what you want to do.

Come at me from another direction than trying to belittle me.
 
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Kumorebi said:
I wouldn't trust anything @Rogue42 says. Accepted with a 494? yeah ok.
Click to expand...
I would give him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. His application might have consisted of some unusual ECs that were considered "wow" factors in ADCOMs' perspective.
 
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Kumorebi said:
I wouldn't trust anything @Rogue42 says. Accepted with a 494? yeah ok.
Click to expand...
Also, straight up off the data you posted, 200 some odd applicants successfully gained admission with less than a 494. Go back to eating your peanuts
 
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Rogue42 said:
Truth is, when I made a 496, I didn’t want to tell anyone on this site what I made. For people just like you, for people like you who try to belittle an accidental capital S when you know dang well that it wasn’t meant to be. For people like you who go dig up a post from 2018.

Also, I didn’t say that I wasn’t an outlier. I simply said not as far as an outlier as people on this site make it out to be. Also, by your standards, anyone who does excessively well on the MCAT and gets in is also an outlier.

At the end of the day, you decided to take my numbers, and miss the point. You don’t NEED a 503 MCAT and a 3.7.

What you need is a hard work, passion, and dedication, you need to prove that you can take the MCAT and pass classes, you need to prove that you have given up your time to help others, you need to prove that you have seen the love of a doctor and it’s still what you want to do.

Come at me from another direction than trying to belittle me.
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not belittling anyone. you're in medical school and are going to be doctor. It's about giving the right advice for people looking for it. Of course there are more to applicants than just numbers, but DO NOT give people false hope. if OP wants to go to DO school. THE BEST CHANCES are with an MCAT above 505 FULL STOP.
 
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I would never advice someone to apply with an MCAT of less than 500. You have a significantly higher chance of having a non successful cycle. Although, I have seen people get accepted with sub-500 scores especially at newer schools, but that's not a chance I woud be willing to take. Plus, depending on the school, newer schools will close many doors for you at many residency programs (also depending on what specialty you wanna do). But some schools do average 500 MCAT for their classes, and I would bet many of their students have sub-500 MCAT. However, I think less than 498 would be more of an outlier than most. I go to a newer school and I don't know anyone (that briefly mentioned their MCAT in conversations here and there because that's not a topic anyone talks about in med school lol) with less than a 498. Again, for reference, see here for Schools' average MCAT per ATSU-KCOM: Osteopathic Schools Ranked by MCAT
 
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Rogue42 said:
Also, straight up off the data you posted, 200 some odd applicants successfully gained admission with less than a 494. Go back to eating your peanuts
Click to expand...
214/2089 (matriculants/applicants) with that score range is around 10%. 10% of people with that score range got into a DO school. Not very good odds, but actually higher than I expected.
 
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OP aim has high as you can, if you fall short, it will still be "pretty" high instead of low lol.
 
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Rogue42 said:
You can never go wrong with a 500 MCAT, 3.5+ gpa in science and cumulative gpa (not explicitly necessary so for you, just try to ace your next 13 ish hours), 50+ hours of shadowing, and then - and listen cause this next part is important - extracurriculars and service activities that you are ACTUALLY passionate, never do it just because you can put it on a resume -> interviewers can see right through that. Do things because you care about it. That alone will set you so far about in your writing about it and when interviewers ask you questions about it.
Click to expand...
Kumorebi said:
not belittling anyone. you're in medical school and are going to be doctor. It's about giving the right advice for people looking for it. Of course there are more to applicants than just numbers, but DO NOT give people false hope. if OP wants to go to DO school. THE BEST CHANCES are with an MCAT above 505 FULL STOP.
Click to expand...

I never told this dude - or anyone for that matter - to apply with a 496. I simply stated my success story with anecdotal data like a lot of the other people in this post did.

My initial advice was a 500+ MCAT and a 3.5+ GPA which puts any applicant into the majority of accepted applicants.
 
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Not sure how a <500 MCAT proves anything to be honest. If you really did get accepted with <500 MCAT then you had some extenuating circumstances that somehow overshadowed the sub-average performance. The MCAT is, at times, considered heavier than GPA and the two together are pretty much the only measure of your propensity for getting through medical school curriculum.

You can have all the passion/desire/dedication in the world, but if you aren't showing evidence for being able to pass curriculum by at least performing with average numbers, your chances are slim. Would never recommend anyone make any decisions to apply based off of anecdotal claims of those gaining acceptances with <average scores. It's your future on the line and people have way of stretching the truth on the internet.. best not to gamble your own years and money/time based on skeptical anecdotes or true outliers.

That being said, OP seems to be on track for competitive-range in GPA zone and along with 505+ solid MCAT you should be good my dude. Rack up ECs through clinical hours, DO shadowings/diverse medical shadowing, something productive non-medical related that you're passionate about.
 
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I'd like to remind people (in general, not any particular persons) that anecdotes, i.e. X person got Y GPA/MCAT and got accepted/rejected, are weak data. Possible is not the same as, or even close to, likely. Even if one isn't giving an explicit recommendation, simply stating the numbers, implying or saying there's a chance without showing the actual chance, is giving false hope, intentional or not. This is especially true if one is giving advice to someone who might spend, best case scenario, thousands of dollars and a year of effort.

I'd also like to remind people that GPA/MCAT are but two pieces of the puzzle. So any anecdotes that only gives those two numbers portrays a very incomplete picture. That said, they are very important pieces of said puzzle. Instead of aiming for a specific number, one should be trying to maximize their numbers, therefore maximizing, their chances.


To the OP @Veritas6:
My best advice is to finish out school and getting the best grades possible (think all As!), even if it means giving up some ECs. Its a lot easier to fill in hours than make up subpar grades. Remember to get great letters of rec while your at it. As you near graduation, assess if you have at least the minimum amount of hours (see below). DO shadowing + LOR will help a lot for DO schools.
LizzyM said:
(suboptimal, decent, exceptional)
1. clinical hours (work or volunteer): 99, 150, 1,000+ (employment)
2. non-clinical volunteering hours: 99, 150, 1,000+ (full-time gap year)
3. shadowing hours: 8, 40, 80
Click to expand...

If you have good hours, you might think about applying. If you want to do the missionary work, do it because you really want to and think its worth delaying your app. In your gap year(s), study long and hard to get the best MCAT possible. I suggest taking it January the year you apply but only after you feel over-prepared. A really good score actually might put you in range for some MD schools, especially if you live in a forgiving state and/or are URM. But only when you have an actual score will you (or anyone) be able to start gauging your chances (using objective data). If they're good, apply broadly and write and interview well. Good luck!
 
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I wanted to say that you need to aim for 507-510 if you have less than 3.45. If you have above a 3.45 anything in the low 500s will do.
 
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