what do you think of howard?

[786mine]

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Totally Agree, I want to see how many of them applied to either of theses schools for undergrad. It only worries them when it affects them. Afirmative Action was in there favor for many years, but when the shoe is on the other foot it must stop now.

so you support AA or you oppose it?

 

[Drill2Fill]

i am of indian orgin.

native american?

so you support AA or you oppose it?"

I support AA, but not in the way that some think that it is done in here. I believe that blacks that live at a low socioeconomic level should be actively recruited and enrolled. No, I do not think that poor whites should have this same advantage, because the point of AA is to try to equalize the ratio of the practicing dentist to that of the general population. This ratio is out of whack because of the AA that was practiced before civil rights, so it should not be ended until they are in balance.

 

[drhobie7]

i am of indian orgin.

Indian origin may be a minority strictly speaking, but in the United States it is clearly not a disadvataged minority. Want another example? How about asian students. Sure they are a minority strictly speaking, but by no means are they disadvantaged.

I made a point earlier about the fact that african american students face subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) challenges that other individuals don't. I don't know what these challenges are because I'm white, but despite not being able to experience them I still know they exist. I've had the education to understand that not everyone is given a fair shake throughout life. BKWASH had a nice point about "Who would provide care to the african american populations if schools like Howard and Meharry started taking more white students?" Would you do it JohnUNLV? I doubt it. It is a fact that a given race is more likely to provide services/health care to their own race.

There was another point made earlier that I found interesting. What do you think the reason is that there aren't as many black students in college, dental school or climbing the ranks of society? (We have 1 black student in my class. 1 out of 100.) Do you think it's because they don't want it? Or do you think it's because they aren't smart enough? Both are absurd suggestions. Obviously there is a reason for this and it is apparent to me more black people are not in these positions because of societal obstacles NOT their lack of motivation, intelligence, or opportunity.

 

[Drill2Fill]

well put.

 

[786mine]

i did not share my ethnicity to for you to joke/make fun off, or associate me with the rest of people. i am an american and that's that, not indian american or indian, just plain american.

like i said earlier in my comments, i think AA is not fair to anyone in the long run. it does more harm then do justice. i think people who use the race card for any situation are scum. i still have my principles and i still have my morals.

drhobie7: if a person wants to do something, he or she can do it. if majority of black people want to live in slums or the projects that does not mean the entire black race are a bunch of ghetto piece of ****. so i don't know exactly what you are looking for in your answer to the question you posted. i am an immigrant here, i did not have any family here, i did not have any money to help me out. i did it all. and if i can do it, i can not understand why a black person who is a citizen of this country and is giving more benefits then an immigrant can't. i don't have time or pity for feel sorry for someone who does not want to help themselves. either way, if you can understand my thinking good, if you can't then that is fine as well.

 

[Drill2Fill]

i did not share my ethnicity to for you to joke/make fun off, or associate me with the rest of people. i am an american and that's that, not indian american or indian, just plain american.

like i said earlier in my comments, i think AA is not fair to anyone in the long run. it does more harm then do justice. i think people who use the race card for any situation are scum. i still have my principles and i still have my morals.

drhobie7: if a person wants to do something, he or she can do it. if majority of black people want to live in slums or the projects that does not mean the entire black race are a bunch of ghetto piece of ****. so i don't know exactly what you are looking for in your answer to the question you posted. i am an immigrant here, i did not have any family here, i did not have any money to help me out. i did it all. and if i can do it, i can not understand why a black person who is a citizen of this country and is giving more benefits then an immigrant can't. i don't have time or pity for feel sorry for someone who does not want to help themselves. either way, if you can understand my thinking good, if you can't then that is fine as well.

The problem that you have is that you don't know the history behind all this. As an immigrant you came here with a purpose to do something, goals. You have no underlying issuses within our society. Blacks on the other hand do. To me you seem to say blacks are lazy or opportunistic, in a not so subtle way, which is not the case.

 

[drhobie7]

i am an immigrant here, i did not have any family here, i did not have any money to help me out. i did it all. and if i can do it, i can not understand why a black person who is a citizen of this country and is giving more benefits then an immigrant can't. i don't have time or pity for feel sorry for someone who does not want to help themselves.

My question is this: Why do you think more young black people aren't achieving in life like you have? Is it because of lack of opportunity? Lack of intelligence? Or a complex social structure that somehow makes it more difficult for them? Or is it something else that I'm unaware of? I'd like to hear your explanation for the discrepancies between socioeconomic status, employment, and health between african americans and whites (or Indians for that matter). You seem to think it's their own fault. I'd like to hear how this could be. I am suggesting that the social construct that does not favor them is more complicated than your or I could realize.

p.s. Nobody was making fun of you for being Indian (or American of Indian origin). I simply pointed out that Indian people are not part of a disadvantaged minority, meaning that you didn't and don't face the obstacles black people face.

 

[JohnUNLV]

This is a very interesting topic. None of the majority race is concerned with HBCU's at the undergraduate level, however when the number of schools shrinks to 54 suddenly all of the sub-par applicants feel as if they are owed an invitation to Howard or Meharry. I agree with the idea of looking at race as a factor in admission. 70% of graduating AA dentists attend these two schools. If they were to open their doors to all applicants then who would treat blacks in urban areas where there is already a shortage of dentists?

We are all talking about the undergraduate level, in fact, EVERY level, it doesnt matter. Maybe you didnt read the previous posts but we are against ALL forms of discrimination at any level. It seems as though minorities are in full favor of racism against whites however.

 

[JohnUNLV]

Would you agree that being poor and black, would be harder than poor and white? Did you turn your life around by yourself, or was there a mentor envolved?

No, I wouldnt agree nor disagree. Being poor is harder than being a certain color, I know from experience.

I turned my life around myself after being expelled for the 2nd time, arrested for the 2nd time and living on the street for the 2nd time.

 

[JohnUNLV]

No, I do not think that poor whites should have this same advantage

This just erases every intelligent thing you have ever said in your entire life. You, my friend, are a racist and a bigot. You blatently support racism in its worst form. Well, how would you feel my friend if we still owned you? You probably wouldnt be too happy about that now would you?

Your hypocrisy is not only unfounded, its ridiculous and outlandish. I have nothing further to say to the racist.

 

[JohnUNLV]

i think people who use the race card for any situation are scum. i still have my principles and i still have my morals.

drhobie7: if a person wants to do something, he or she can do it. if majority of black people want to live in slums or the projects that does not mean the entire black race are a bunch of ghetto piece of ****. so i don't know exactly what you are looking for in your answer to the question you posted. i am an immigrant here, i did not have any family here, i did not have any money to help me out. i did it all. and if i can do it, i can not understand why a black person who is a citizen of this country and is giving more benefits then an immigrant can't. i don't have time or pity for feel sorry for someone who does not want to help themselves. either way, if you can understand my thinking good, if you can't then that is fine as well.

Bolded for emphasis... beautiful post 786.

 

[JohnUNLV]

My question is this: Why do you think more young black people aren't achieving in life like you have? Is it because of lack of opportunity? Lack of intelligence? Or a complex social structure that somehow makes it more difficult for them? Or is it something else that I'm unaware of? I'd like to hear your explanation for the discrepancies between socioeconomic status, employment, and health between african americans and whites (or Indians for that matter). You seem to think it's their own fault. I'd like to hear how this could be. I am suggesting that the social construct that does not favor them is more complicated than your or I could realize.

p.s. Nobody was making fun of you for being Indian (or American of Indian origin). I simply pointed out that Indian people are not part of a disadvantaged minority, meaning that you didn't and don't face the obstacles black people face.

I dont think its fair to say Indian's dont face obstacles, especially being a woman.

I am suggesting that the social construct that does not favor them is more complicated than your or I could realize.

Exactly. You keep asking for answers, but there isnt an answer to your very complicated question. There are a ton of reasons for the inequality we see today. But people who play the race card and bring up the same old arguments are so pessimistic it is disgusting. I prefer to be optimistic and see that the trends ARE in fact changing. There are more blacks in schools now, in workplaces and all areas of life.

Also, blaming EVERYTHING on society is a total cop-out. Come on, somewhere along the line you have to take responsibility for your actions and LACK thereof. You know what, im gonna say it, MAYBE THEY ARE LAZY! At least those that dont want it bad enough or would rather just play the race card and blame "society."

Every time I hear someone play the race card I just picture Martin Luther King Jr. cringing. Its like you're spitting on your ancestors and everything they fought and died for. Have some pride and rise up.

 

[mitosis]

AA is wrong - it's just reverse discrimination. Why should my spot, say for my top choice dental school, be given to someone else with lower stats? I was looking for summer research programs recently and was appalled to find that I was precluded from most of these programs b/c I am not a minority. Now how is that fair?

 

[Drill2Fill]

This just erases every intelligent thing you have ever said in your entire life. You, my friend, are a racist and a bigot. You blatently support racism in its worst form. Well, how would you feel my friend if we still owned you? You probably wouldnt be too happy about that now would you?

Your hypocrisy is not only unfounded, its ridiculous and outlandish. I have nothing further to say to the racist.

You sir have no common sense. You say you hate AA becuase it only benefits blacks and doesn't give a fair shake for the poor white. I believe that it should be used for this, untill a balance is reached, then turned into something that both poor white and poor blacks can both benefit from. So I guess you believe that everyone who agrees with AA is a racist. You do know that some white people had a hand in starting AA, so are they racist to?

 

[786mine]

So far only JohnUNLV and mitosis have understood my idea. I don't know if they are minority or not, but the idea is this: who does AA benefit the most? the person or the society? actually, neither. the society gets screwed by giving up the position to a person who is less qualified. to give you an example, imagine if you will. if the govt or any large organization was run by competent, moral and efficent CEOs. do you think if that was the case, GM, Ford or Chevy would be going down the drain. do you say that Honda, or Toyota are beating the Americans JUST because they are of Japanese origin? Do you think its fair for the US govt to give out tax payers money to save these American automakers? HELL NO. Guess what, the customer does not benefit as the better cars (quality and relability wise) are more expensive them the ones compared to the cheapo Chevy POS, and so on. Now use that same analogy with AA. By giving the position to a person who is less competent, and less qualified for a postion to someone who just "gets" it becuase of something they had no choice in (that is their race), they get the job.

now a lot of you have questioned, why are blacks suffering, why this, why that. i am no expert, but my honest answer would be, "most just don't give a ****", they see black rappers swimming in cash, calling women hos and bitches, they see selling drugs as big time way to get quick cash. there are some black people who have made it, think colin powell, think mohammad ali. wait, i think people just knocked themselves out thinking they should take it easy because he is a black guy right?

anyone who says that the black are still suppressed, lives in a delusional world. if a black (male) person walks like a thugs, talks like a thug and then gets stopped to be searched by the 5-0 like a thug then that is life, son. majority of blacks, call their own race "***** or ******", clearly if they understnad what hate was associated with that word, then they would not be feeling poud to use it. you think that white people who act all "cool" and talk "smack" get respected? get a life. we live in UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, not AUSTRALIA or SOUTH AFRICA. USA, where you have the freedom to speech, religion and free thought. USA, land of the free and home of the brave. USA, land of million oppertunities. You make your own path, you don't wait for greatness to come to you, drhobie7. I hope this gives you answer. if you want you be a dentist, the govt is not going to stop you. if you act dumb and do dumb stuff and then expect you will get an easier penety just because someone gave you the "look" because you are colored then you need to get your head examined.

mitosis is right, AA is a form of reverse discrimination. JohnUNLV said it nicely as well, "here are a ton of reasons for the inequality we see today. But people who play the race card and bring up the same old arguments are so pessimistic it is disgusting. I prefer to be optimistic and see that the trends ARE in fact changing. There are more blacks in schools now, in workplaces and all areas of life." ElDentistFuturo, I have nothing but shame for you, I can't see why you would choose a profession with the intention to help people think such a way. will you deny treatment to anyone who is white? or is white AND rich? this is a humble advice from me to you, quit thinking like this because if you keep this up, let me assure you, you will not succeed far.

 

[786mine]

The problem that you have is that you don't know the history behind all this. As an immigrant you came here with a purpose to do something, goals. You have no underlying issuses within our society. Blacks on the other hand do. To me you seem to say blacks are lazy or opportunistic, in a not so subtle way, which is not the case.

let me break it down, i am not saying in a subtle way. i am saying in a direct way. i do think that a majority of black youth is heading the wrong way. they see bling and pimping as good, they do not see hardwork and career as good. do i dare say that a entire black race is lazy, no, do i say that a majority of them do have have career in their mind, yes. do i think that government is intentionally holding down the blacks and the hispanics and the white trash, i am sorry, i don't buy that excuse. hardwork never killed anyone, however shortcuts have. think it over.

 

[Dino_D]

My first acceptance letter (back in the day) was from Howard University. I didn't interview with them (do they offer interviews?). I'm not African American either but that's beside the point. If I was only accepted in Howard I would have gone. If I was accepted at Howard and at another dental school I would still consider Howard.

 

[Drill2Fill]

let me break it down, i am not saying in a subtle way. i am saying in a direct way. i do think that a majority of black youth is heading the wrong way. they see bling and pimping as good, they do not see hardwork and career as good. do i dare say that a entire black race is lazy, no, do i say that a majority of them do have have career in their mind, yes. do i think that government is intentionally holding down the blacks and the hispanics and the white trash, i am sorry, i don't buy that excuse. hardwork never killed anyone, however shortcuts have. think it over.

And JohnUNLV called me a racist!!

You do realize that I did say earlier that blacks have less of a chance of having a professional role model. Most children idealize what is familiar to them. For some blacks this is the pro-sports player, or the sussessful rich drug dealer down the street.

Truthfully, coming from a different country, you have no idea what you are talking about. How long have you been here?

 

[786mine]

And JohnUNLV called me a racist!!

You do realize that I did say earlier that blacks have less of a chance of having a professional role model. Most children idealize what is familiar to them. For some blacks this is the pro-sports player, or the sussessful rich drug dealer down the street.

Truthfully, coming from a different country, you have no idea what you are talking about. How long have you been here?

i do agree with you that there are bad role-models available for black youth. at the same time, there are good role models available as well, think tiger woods, think MLK! i don't it's fair for you to say that just becuase i come from a different county, i have not faced racism (from my own race and other races), or that i have not faced hardships. when I talk about black youth (or any other minority), I am talking about the current generation. not the 60s or the slave-era. for me it was actually a white dentist who was a role model, not someone of indian origin.

look, I got into dental school because i did good on dat. that is a random exam. you are not given harder questions because you are of some ethnicity. i got into the dental school becuase i studied for the DAT 3 solid months and i got 20 in AA, TS and 21 in PAT. I did my shadowning, and I filled out my app early in the year and I was in, and do think i mentioned before, I got in becuase of my merit and not my race as I choose not to disclose my ethnicity.

after going back and forth, i am sorry, i don't understnad what your basic argument was. could you basically break down your arugment in a single point so that i can respond to that. i see that we all have been saying one thing and the next person says something related, but not what we are talking about.

i think the orgininal comment was that is AA better or worse. I said worse because it leads to incometency and eventually leads to more injustice rather then to follow the aim of AA. if you truely believe that AA is good for the greater society, we can leave it at that. my aim is to only try to explain my situation and help you understand why AA is not fair or just for anyone in the big picture.

 

[Drill2Fill]

. will you deny treatment to anyone who is white? or is white AND rich? this is a humble advice from me to you, quit thinking like this because if you keep this up, let me assure you, you will not succeed far.

Yes I would treat a white rich person, but I doubt that I would see to many of them in the inner city, low socioeconomic area I plan on practicing in. Your idea of Success may be to graduate dental school and run a million dollar practice, but mine are a little less stellar (in your eyes). I think it is a little strange when I see some pre-dents talking about going on mission trips to third world countries, when we have people here living in the same kind of situation. You don't really see the majority of dentist opting to practice in a situation were they know they won't be maxiumizing their earning potential, but as drhobie7 put it "Who would provide care to the african american", if I don't.

 

[nnjh]

So far only JohnUNLV and mitosis have understood my idea. I don't know if they are minority or not, but the idea is this: who does AA benefit the most? the person or the society? actually, neither. the society gets screwed by giving up the position to a person who is less qualified. to give you an example, imagine if you will. if the govt or any large organization was run by competent, moral and efficent CEOs. do you think if that was the case, GM, Ford or Chevy would be going down the drain. do you say that Honda, or Toyota are beating the Americans JUST because they are of Japanese origin? Do you think its fair for the US govt to give out tax payers money to save these American automakers? HELL NO. Guess what, the customer does not benefit as the better cars (quality and relability wise) are more expensive them the ones compared to the cheapo Chevy POS, and so on. Now use that same analogy with AA. By giving the position to a person who is less competent, and less qualified for a postion to someone who just "gets" it becuase of something they had no choice in (that is their race), they get the job.

now a lot of you have questioned, why are blacks suffering, why this, why that. i am no expert, but my honest answer would be, "most just don't give a ****", they see black rappers swimming in cash, calling women hos and bitches, they see selling drugs as big time way to get quick cash. there are some black people who have made it, think colin powell, think mohammad ali. wait, i think people just knocked themselves out thinking they should take it easy because he is a black guy right?

anyone who says that the black are still suppressed, lives in a delusional world. if a black (male) person walks like a thugs, talks like a thug and then gets stopped to be searched by the 5-0 like a thug then that is life, son. majority of blacks, call their own race "***** or ******", clearly if they understnad what hate was associated with that word, then they would not be feeling poud to use it. you think that white people who act all "cool" and talk "smack" get respected? get a life. we live in UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, not AUSTRALIA or SOUTH AFRICA. USA, where you have the freedom to speech, religion and free thought. USA, land of the free and home of the brave. USA, land of million oppertunities. You make your own path, you don't wait for greatness to come to you, drhobie7. I hope this gives you answer. if you want you be a dentist, the govt is not going to stop you. if you act dumb and do dumb stuff and then expect you will get an easier penety just because someone gave you the "look" because you are colored then you need to get your head examined.

mitosis is right, AA is a form of reverse discrimination. JohnUNLV said it nicely as well, "here are a ton of reasons for the inequality we see today. But people who play the race card and bring up the same old arguments are so pessimistic it is disgusting. I prefer to be optimistic and see that the trends ARE in fact changing. There are more blacks in schools now, in workplaces and all areas of life." ElDentistFuturo, I have nothing but shame for you, I can't see why you would choose a profession with the intention to help people think such a way. will you deny treatment to anyone who is white? or is white AND rich? this is a humble advice from me to you, quit thinking like this because if you keep this up, let me assure you, you will not succeed far.

I have a feeling the only black people you actually know are the ones you saw on MTV. I also loved how you think the USA has freedom unlike Australia. But surely on a more serious note, AA is positive since most black people and hispanic people prefer being treated by people of their own ethnicities. Asians and Caucasians who compose the majority of the D school population don't open their practices in inner city neighborhoods. Why should innocent people suffer from lack of much needed dental care? You do realize hispanic and african americans currently compose a significant percentage of the poplulation and will be larger in days to come? AA might give minorities an upperhand in admissions academically but socially they have overcome much more than you imagine. And another point to be made is that minorities take the NDBE 1 and 2 also, they are as bit as competent as you or me. Once you get to D school get to know your classmates and talk to them instead of judging the whole race from watching 8 miles and fifty cent music videos.

 

[Drill2Fill]

My first acceptance letter (back in the day) was from Howard University. I didn't interview with them (do they offer interviews?). I'm not African American either but that's beside the point. If I was only accepted in Howard I would have gone. If I was accepted at Howard and at another dental school I would still consider Howard.

May I ask your race?

 

[nnjh]

Another point to be made, AA is not a race card b/c Cochran isn't on any adcoms.

 

[Jonny]

I believe that it should be used for this, untill a balance is reached, then turned into something that both poor white and poor blacks can both benefit from. So I guess you believe that everyone who agrees with AA is a racist. You do know that some white people had a hand in starting AA, so are they racist to?

There will never be a balance with that type of thinking

 

[Drill2Fill]

There will never be a balance with that type of thinking

What do you mean by that?

 

[Jonny]

I just dont think that AA is the answer. I really think its keeping things where they are.

 

[bkwash]

We are all talking about the undergraduate level, in fact, EVERY level, it doesnt matter. Maybe you didnt read the previous posts but we are against ALL forms of discrimination at any level. It seems as though minorities are in full favor of racism against whites however.

HBCU's are not rooted in discrimination, the mission is to educate and train African Americans, and there is a subtle difference between preference and discrimination. I seriously doubt you have ever encountered one of these institutions or have a close relationship with anyone from one. The only reason you are even cognizant of these institutions is because there are only 54 dental schools, and you wanted to use Howard and Meharry as one of your safety schools. I am not speaking of Affirmative Action, all I am saying is that these PRIVATE institutions have the right to decide if they want to further the education of a certain segment of the population which was neglected until 40 years ago overtly and is still neglected today subtly as drhobie pointed out, then let it be.

 

[Drill2Fill]

I just dont think that AA is the answer. I really think its keeping things where they are.

I don't think Racism isn't fair, I don't think discrimination isn't fair, you think AA isn't fair, suck it up.

 

[JohnUNLV]

And JohnUNLV called me a racist!!

You do realize that I did say earlier that blacks have less of a chance of having a professional role model. Most children idealize what is familiar to them. For some blacks this is the pro-sports player, or the sussessful rich drug dealer down the street.

Truthfully, coming from a different country, you have no idea what you are talking about. How long have you been here?

I think you're the one that has no idea what you're talking about. 786 speaks extremely well and very thoughtfully, she has amazing points being made. You, on the other hand, just contradict yourself and repeat nonsense that goes no where.

Many people have no idols or anyone at all to look up to (myself, for example) and yet, we still succeed. Success is TRYING, not following someone else or pretending to be your "role model"... Who the hell has role models anymore anyways?

 

[Yellow Snow]

Racism isn't fair, discrimination isn't fair, AA isn't fair, suck it up.

It seems to me that you are a very strong advocate of making assumptions about people based upon their race. Are you comfortable with that? Do you think it is the best way to make accurate decisions about people? I am not trying to provoke you. You seem like you have thought this out and I am honestly interested in your reasoning here.

 

[Jonny]

Racism isn't fair, discrimination isn't fair, AA isn't fair, suck it up.

So if you think AA is not fair how can you be behind it?? I do not understand your logic, and niether does anyone else from what it looks like. If people do not have the statistics to qualify for these programs then they shouldnt get in. Have you seen Howards stats!! The lowest in the country! and I know that numbers arent always everything, but to have averages like that are crazy. That means there are people getting in with lower scores!! 15 and 14 are probably already the bottom 20%. I cant even imagine getting in with lower scores. There are way to many qualified applicants not getting in to any US dental school to have such low averages. All what this AA BS is doing is helping people at the wrong end. Maybe its you who needs to SUCK IT UP. The applicant pool is getting more competative, maybe those people who need to suck it up and work harder! rather then give them an excuse and a pat on the back, telling them its ok youve done your best here is your degree. All I know is that I wouldnt want to get in anywhere or get a job somewhere if I wasnt qualified for the job. Anyway I really do not care what you think, its not like im going to change your mind, because your not going to change mine. Good Luck with this little forum argument. I have better things to worry about.

 

[Drill2Fill]

I think you're the one that has no idea what you're talking about. 786 speaks extremely well and very thoughtfully, she has amazing points being made. You, on the other hand, just contradict yourself and repeat nonsense that goes no where.

Many people have no idols or anyone at all to look up to (myself, for example) and yet, we still succeed. Success is TRYING, not following someone else or pretending to be your "role model"... Who the hell has role models anymore anyways?

Why are you so hostile? I doubt that your "toughness" and name calling would happen in real life. I guess it is the built in anonymity of a public forum. Some things people say in here would never be said in real life with that person sitting in front of you.
How can you tell me I don't know what I am talking about? You act as though you are a black male, and have lived the life that I have. I don't care what you went through as a child, you don't know how it is to live as a "black" person in the US. I'll be damn that someone that wasn't even born in America can tell me what issuses I faced as I grew up, and what I still face today!!

 

[Yellow Snow]

I can almost agree with the position of Howard. The concept of a level playing field is an idealization. I am a majority here in the states (my home country) but I have lived many years as a minority in other countries, some more openly racist than others. Even living among a seemingly non-racist majority, things will always be a little bit different (sometimes alot).

These "intangibles" add up and can count against someone over a lifetime. As I have been on the receiving end in the past, I am all for organizations that offer support to minorities. We all know that a big part of getting into dental school is a game of probabilities (which is why some with stellar GPA still worry about and post "will I get in?") and the truth is that if you are a minority there are additional factors that go into that probablity. The probability is pretty damn high that you will interview with a white person and then there is again the probability that said white person could harbor resentment toward people of X race for Y reason. But I guess there is also the probability that they could be additionally favorable to X race for Y reason.

I don't see how Howard can justify having race be such an overwhelmingly large factor in their admissions however. If there goal is to get minorities to become doctors then it would be much more appropriate for them to work from the outside as advocates. To take a whole dental school and declare that its purpose is predominatly inclusive of some races and predominatly exclusive of others, well, it smacks of racism.

 

[mph2pharm]

This is a very interesting topic. None of the majority race is concerned with HBCU's at the undergraduate level, however when the number of schools shrinks to 54 suddenly all of the sub-par applicants feel as if they are owed an invitation to Howard or Meharry. I agree with the idea of looking at race as a factor in admission. 70% of graduating AA dentists attend these two schools. If they were to open their doors to all applicants then who would treat blacks in urban areas where there is already a shortage of dentists?

Wow this is such an interesting discussion. I do agree that often HBCUs don't become appealing to the "majority race" until medical school, dental school, law school and other professional programs. Often the tuition is cheaper than other private schools and I may be wrong but it seems like these schools are appealing to a good portion of the "majority race" only when other options have been exhausted (meaning you couldn't get in anywhere else). I hope that we can always look to HBCUs like Meharry and Howard to give Black students a chance to pursue their dreams just like everyone else.

 

[double4life]

Wow this is such an interesting discussion. I do agree that often HBCUs don't become appealing to the "majority race" until medical school, dental school, law school and other professional programs. Often the tuition is cheaper than other private schools and I may be wrong but it seems like these schools are appealing to a good portion of the "majority race" only when other options have been exhausted (meaning you couldn't get in anywhere else). I hope that we can always look to HBCUs like Meharry and Howard to give Black students a chance to pursue their dreams just like everyone else.

Amen.

 

[2dds2009]

All I can say is that I am glad Howard and Meharry exist.... to some extent. Come on guys, "regular" dental schools denied admission to hispanic/black people to based on their race for a long time.... at the same time, the population of Blacks and Hispanics is continually rising, and people from underserved areas are still not receiving oral health care because of the lack of black/hispanics dentists in those areas and for other reasons... From what I know, the only way to try to reduce those health disparities was for Howard and Meharry to have their OWN schools....since they know that people who tend to graduate from their schools will go back to their communities and practice.

 

[Yellow Snow]

All I can say is that I am glad Howard and Meharry exist.... to some extent. Come on guys, "regular" dental schools denied admission to hispanic/black people to based on their race for a long time.... at the same time, the population of Blacks and Hispanics is continually rising, and people from underserved areas are still not receiving oral health care because of the lack of black/hispanics dentists in those areas and for other reasons... From what I know, the only way to try to reduce those health disparities was for Howard and Meharry to have their OWN schools....since they know that people who tend to graduate from their schools will go back to their communities and practice.

"I hope that we can always look to HBCUs like Meharry and Howard to give Black students a chance to pursue their dreams just like everyone else."

Yeah...it is good. The idea tough to swallow, because it presumes that black students need a helping hand to get in. But hell...if I had someone offering to make it easier for me, I would take it.

 

[mph2pharm]

"I hope that we can always look to HBCUs like Meharry and Howard to give Black students a chance to pursue their dreams just like everyone else."

Yeah...it is good. The idea tough to swallow, because it presumes that black students need a helping hand to get in. But hell...if I had someone offering to make it easier for me, I would take it.

...and in the end, these students will have to take (and pass) the same qualifying exams as everyone else in order to practice. Some may disagree with who HBCUs accept into their programs but none of these schools are in the business of handing over doctoral degrees. These students earn their degrees through hard work and determination just like everyone else and if they truly don't deserve to be there and can't cut it academically, then they will not make it to the end.

 

[PanchoVilla]

Brilliant response. Thank you.

And to Pancho the "ignorance" abuser, how does me pointing out a blatent fact that they select students based almost entirely on race prove my own ignorance?
Also, I was speaking about the entire university, not just "all dental schools" as your completely ignorant post claimed. By the way, ignorance is the lack of knowledge...which pretty much sums up your post.

Gdent15, "There is nothing wrong for them to give a preference towards blacks and this is perfectly legal." If you believe that, then you would have no problem with any major corporation giving preference to all whites who apply for jobs and simply reject any minority applicant, regardless of their skills/talents. Which would be completely ridiculous and unfair, not to mention RACIST. Perfectly legal? Tons of companies and schools are sued each and every year for "unfair hiring practices", "unlawful termination" and various other legal claims. I would love to see peoples' reaction if there was an openly all white school, or an all white company either of which admitted or hired based simply on race. There would be riots, there would be outcry, there would be anarchy...yet for an openly all black school, oh thats ok, "they need help" gimme a fu$^in break.

My lack of knowledge? thats hillarious you HICK. Ive done more in Dentistry in the past three years than you will accomplish in your ignorant lifetime. Your attitude only perpetuates ignorance and breads hatred. Sadly theres more people like you than there should be but thats life.

 

[colt]

It's getting hostile in here.

 

[polarnut]

so a jew and a black guy walked into a bar...

 

[gdent15]

Let me quickly get back into this discussion. For those of you arguing whether affirmative action is beneficial or not, I feel that you guys are talking past each other. aa as most know it is a thing of the past. court cases have made it so that unqualified people getting in to fill quotas does not happen any more. before anyone argues this point further, educate yourselves on what exactly is going on today. secondly, to those saying that we live in this nice little society where racism isn’t a factor in day to day life, God help you if anyone ever bursts the bubble you live in. from my point of view, growing up as a poor white kid and having teachers, my ‘role models’, tell me I won’t succeed in life was still far easier than growing up being black. I am now a senior in college and am mostly surrounded by educated people and I still see forms of racism almost on a daily bases.

 

[gdent15]

so a jew and a black guy walked into a bar...

just what this thread needed to lighten things up

 

[JavadiCavity]

This thread has bothered some people enough that they've sent me PMs asking me to close it down. I've reviewed the comments made, and with only a few exceptions, I think that posters are engaged in an interesting debate.

However, a few of you feel like it's necessary to insult each other. Please discontinue doing this if you wish to continue posting. The forums are a place for open discussion. Maintaining an environment where people aren't afraid to make a comment for fear of being accosted by other posters is one of the reasons why the TOS states that we should refrain from making insulting remarks. I appreciate your compliance! Thanks!

 

[polarnut]

in the words of Bill Walton on ESPN, "Throw it down, Big Man, throw it down!"

 

[SuperC]

At the end of the day a private school has the right to choose who and who they don't accept. That being said. I cannot see how being any color can affect one's grades. School is a numbers game NOT a race game. As far as I know there are several black students in my class at UF and I don't see them running to the door of Howard because there they will "fit in" and no longer be discriminated against. It would be my guess that they choose a school that was worthy of thier caliber (just like the rest of us).

As a white male I cannot appreciate the in's and out's of what a black person goes though, however I have never been one for excuses... what ever the reason.

If I were the ADCOM of Howard and I was bent on catering to minorities, I would activly persue the BEST and the BRIGHTEST out there. Not the 14 DAT kid who is so worried about racism he/she never got thier life together and said DAMN I better study.

My two cents...
-C

 

[bkwash]

At the end of the day a private school has the right to choose who and who they don't accept. That being said. I cannot see how being any color can affect one's grades. School is a numbers game NOT a race game. As far as I know there are several black students in my class at UF and I don't see them running to the door of Howard because there they will "fit in" and no longer be discriminated against. It would be my guess that they choose a school that was worthy of thier caliber (just like the rest of us).

As a white male I cannot appreciate the in's and out's of what a black person goes though, however I have never been one for excuses... what ever the reason.

If I were the ADCOM of Howard and I was bent on catering to minorities, I would activly persue the BEST and the BRIGHTEST out there. Not the 14 DAT kid who is so worried about racism he/she never got thier life together and said DAMN I better study.

My two cents...
-C

First of lets clarify something...Afirmative Action is not a quota system or numbers game, it simply says that there must be a means or plan for increasing diversity in an establishment. For a dental school that could be something as simple as: Hosting a diversity weekend, visiting an HBCU to recruit students, or even establishing an "office of multi cutural affairs" the latter is what most schools do, look in the ADEA "official guide to dental schools" and under the dean of the school most will have a listing for a Dean of multicultural affairs. None of these things take away "spots" from applicants, but ensure that the subject of diversity is being addressed.

The name of the thread is asking what do you guys think about Howard NOT affirmative action, they are not the same thing. Affirmative Action is for assimilation into the mainstream society. Howard is a school that looks to educate African Americans.

 

[SuperC]

I never mentioned affermative action. I simply stated that a private school has the right to do what they want to do, period.

 

[polarnut]

howard is a school established to bring more african americans into field of dentistry because they are under-represented in the profession.

that's that.

what's up with all these useless arguments and counter-arguments that boils down to pretty much nothing but another anti-racism/pseudo-racism paradigm?

 

[PDizzle]

First of lets clarify something...Afirmative Action is not a quota system or numbers game, it simply says that there must be a means or plan for increasing diversity in an establishment. For a dental school that could be something as simple as: Hosting a diversity weekend, visiting an HBCU to recruit students, or even establishing an "office of multi cutural affairs" the latter is what most schools do, look in the ADEA "official guide to dental schools" and under the dean of the school most will have a listing for a Dean of multicultural affairs. None of these things take away "spots" from applicants, but ensure that the subject of diversity is being addressed.

The name of the thread is asking what do you guys think about Howard NOT affirmative action, they are not the same thing. Affirmative Action is for assimilation into the mainstream society. Howard is a school that looks to educate African Americans.

Let's not get into semantics here. You can call it whatever you want but when an institution has an agenda that clearly prefers and admits based on race, that's discrimination....period. Even if it is for "good" reasons, it's the wrong thing to do and is taking our society in the wrong direction. I'm not talking about recruiting or having workshops that help prepare black applicants by improving their GPA or DAT scores or actively reaching more black individuals and encouraging them to apply. That's fine and I think is an extremely viable possible solution to the under representation of black dental students.

The fact that Howard is a private school is completely irrelevant. They can not do whatever they want and admit whoever they want. If a private school openly preferred white applicants they would get crucified!

As far as people "losing spots" to AA. Anytime you take race into consideration and give it any weight whatsoever to the process of selecting an applicant into dental school, you are taking away spots from people who should have got in. I base this fact on my belief that race should not be considered a relevant attribute and should be completely thrown out of the decision. In fact, it shouldn't even be on the application.. along with sexual preference, height, eye color, penis size, number of birth marks, finger nail length and a myriad of other completely irrelevant statistics a person has that has no bearing on his/her ability and desire to complete and/or succeed in dental school.

Now, if you disagree with this then you believe in discrimination based on race. You may even have a "good" reason for doing so but at least call it what it is and don't let "diversity", the buzz word of the last few decades, confuse you to what's actually going on.