What happens to people that lie during the application process?

[EpiPEN]

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Haha...I've been relatively successful at handling life so far, thank you, despite being exposed to my share of its harsh realities. As for the rest of your argument, I'm not saying that I can't handle the fact that tens of thousands of qualified applicants don't get in. It doesn't keep me up at night. But if I got in by unethical means, then it probably would.

That seems to be very dependent on what you feel is unethical I suppose. One can say that perhaps you aren't ethical enough despite your position on lying as there are more well-deserving people who couldn't promote themsleves as well as you did.

A person with reasonably good writing/communication skills can write a good PS without trying to make himself out to be Mother Theresa (sp?). My point was, adcoms look at what your grades are, what you've done, how well you interview, how well you communicate your understanding of medicine and your reasons for wanting to be a doctor. In most cases, how great a person you say you are probably makes little to no difference. You're simply not an impartial witness, and they know that. Saying things like, "I'm very altruistic and I want to help people"--probably means little to an adcom. Saying, "I have volunteered in a soup kitchen every weekend for the past three years"--that might mean something. My statement was kind of made with examples like these in mind.

Yeah I get that, but see my thing is, remember when you were in the applicant shoes? Maybe I'm being over cynical but I think applicants would not pass up any opportunity they have of increasing their chances of getting in to med school (within each of their own ethical limitations ofcourse). And it's logical that med schools would like altruistic people. By saying that it "probably" won't help isn't enough to convince the average pre-med to not to do something imho. As for what to say on the PS, I would not be suprised that many applicants might have ehanced certain events in their life that steered them in the direction. Strictly speaking, that's lying. Should I feel that they are underserving doctors? no.

 

[iA-MD2013]

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[Ooglyboogly]

I think it's amusing that you see dying of heart failure as even slightly analoguous to not getting into med school. Newsflash: If you're seriously applying to med school, chances are you are a bright, capable person with a lot of work ethic...there are millions of other jobs out there. If you can't quite cut it in medicine, guess what...you'll live.

I never said that heart failure=not getting into med school. I was talking about lying/cheating in general.BTW, a lot of pre-meds would consider heart failure=not getting into med school.

 

[bawer234]

Who cares if you lie to the adcom and screw over honest colleagues who worked hard and didn't falsify their applications? It's not like you are supposed to be an honest professional or something.

Again, I think you fail to see my point. How about we agree to disagree?👍

 

[8744]

So... the fact that someone was president of their pre-med honor society, whereas you were not, and worked in a hospital for 1000 hours, whereas you only worked 100, means that they are more qualified than you for medical school? I that that's the point Panda Bear and others are trying to make. A lot of the fluff that people lie about and put on their app to get attention and stand out is just that: fluff. Those activities don't make you more qualified than others to become a doctor and thus, I think what people are arguing at least, is that it's easier/less harmful to lie about those things.

One of the physicians I work for who is top in his field, got into UCSF as a junior in college and is still on staff there today, told me the other day that when he was accepted he had *zero* hospital exposure. Not even a second. He hadn't done research. He hadn't shadowed a physician. He hadn't volunteered abroad. He simply had the stats, wrote a good PS and interviewed well. Now, I'm not saying it's a negative that we now have higher expectations in terms of students testing out their commitment to medicine- this is important- but the point is that the level of those expectations are unreasonable. The hoops people have to jump through to prove themselves and stand out are unnecessary and usually convey little about whether they will be a good physician or not. In some, perhaps even many cases, it's just a reflection of how good of a liar they are.

In fact, except for the birth of my children and the time my mother-in-law had a stroke, I had never so much as been in a hospital, talked to a doctor, or had even the vaguest inkling what the medical field involved. I applied based on nothing more than a whim (which of course turned into an obsession because you need that level of interest to negotiate the application process) and had no really good reason for wanting to be a doctor except they made more than Civil Engineers, my previous career.

The truth of it is that one day I was mowing my lawn in the tropical Louisiana humidity and, when I asked my wife what it would take to hire a lawn service she replied, "Maybe if you were a rich doctor we could afford it."

And that's all there was to it. It was just a career change. A gamble that I would make better money. Now I ask you, could I have put that on my personal statement? Hell no. Like most of you, I lied on my personal statement and filled it with the usual tripe that still makes me cringe whenever I think about it. I will probably publish my personal statement on my blog but only when I am ready to quit blogging as it will completely destroy my credibility.

I have one year left of residency in what will turn out to be an eight-year ordeal. I like medicine well enough and being an Emergency Medicine Physician is kind of cool. I have also just signed a contract for a lot, a lot of money and even got a big signing bonus. I am looking forward to getting done with residency and working for real in about a year but folks, the things you think are so important now, your extra-curricular activities, your passion for this and that...they will have faded to insignificance by the time you are done to be replaced with new interests and new priorities. Your (my) personal statements, extracurricular activities, travels to Guatemala to immerse yourselves in other cultures are either lies or self-delusions which are the same thing when you think about it.

 

[flip26]

Honestly, the bottom line is, if you have in any embossed your experiences in you application, than you have lied. For what I believe to be for a large portion if not all the medical school applitcants, the question is not one of if but one of how much. Some people lie a lot and get away with it, and some don't. Whether or not you like it, that's their survival strategy in life. Who are you to judge them? Just becuase I didn't lie about everything in my application doesn't mean that I should feel somehow justified to judge someone who has and still got in. Just like every survival strategy, there is a negative side to this one as well. If you are one who doesn't have the skill to backup what you say you can do, then you will get what's coming to you in the long run. But if you are someone who's got the skills to back up the boasts that you make, kudos to you, I got no beef with these people and their success.

Again, you justify your lying based on a false assumption about the behavior of others - you go so far as to say that ALL med school applicants lie on their apps, and that is so extremely cynical that I do not see how you are ever going to trust any of your colleagues if that is your underlying opinion of them.

Who am I to judge people who lie and cheat? We are all not only entitled but obligated to judge the ethical behavior of others, and more importantly, to uphold the highest ethical standards in our own actions.

 

[mdgator]

Honestly, the bottom line is, if you have in any embossed your experiences in you application, than you have lied. For what I believe to be for a large portion if not all the medical school applitcants, the question is not one of if but one of how much. Some people lie a lot and get away with it, and some don't. Whether or not you like it, that's their survival strategy in life. Who are you to judge them? Just becuase I didn't lie about everything in my application doesn't mean that I should feel somehow justified to judge someone who has and still got in. Just like every survival strategy, there is a negative side to this one as well. If you are one who doesn't have the skill to backup what you say you can do, then you will get what's coming to you in the long run. But if you are someone who's got the skills to back up the boasts that you make, kudos to you, I got no beef with these people and their success.

You're right. A lot of people lie to get in med school. A lot of people also kill, steal, and exploit for a million other reasons. Doesn't make it right. If one of your lies gets you into med school, you are essentially stealing that spot from someone equally qualified who didn't lie. Why lie to get in? Why not bribe your way in? Why not blackmail someone? Why not sabotage all the competition? Not because these things are any worse, ethically. Simply because lying is easier.

 

[mdgator]

I never said that heart failure=not getting into med school. I was talking about lying/cheating in general.BTW, a lot of pre-meds would consider heart failure=not getting into med school.

Right, so...remind me how your argument was pertinent to this conversation, then?

(I want to take this opportunity to remind everyone that all of my posts are intended to be good natured and non-offensive, no matter how much we may disagree.)

 

[w8ting2exhale]

You're right. A lot of people lie to get in med school. A lot of people also kill, steal, and exploit for a million other reasons. Doesn't make it right. If one of your lies gets you into med school, you are essentially stealing that spot from someone equally qualified who didn't lie. Why lie to get in? Why not bribe your way in? Why not blackmail someone? Why not sabotage all the competition? Not because these things are any worse, ethically. Simply because lying is easier.

You guys are too focused on lying on ECs. Ecs shouldn't be a problem. What really matters for anyone who's bound to get into med school is the numbers: GPA and MCATS. If those are great, then there's no need to lie. You're practically guarenteed med school.

 

[bawer234]

In fact, except for the birth of my children and the time my mother-in-law had a stroke, I had never so much as been in a hospital, talked to a doctor, or had even the vaguest inkling what the medical field involved. I applied based on nothing more than a whim (which of course turned into an obsession because you need that level of interest to negotiate the application process) and had no really good reason for wanting to be a doctor except they made more than Civil Engineers, my previous career.

The truth of it is that one day I was mowing my lawn in the tropical Louisiana humidity and, when I asked my wife what it would take to hire a lawn service she replied, "Maybe if you were a rich doctor we could afford it."

And that's all there was to it. It was just a career change. A gamble that I would make better money. Now I ask you, could I have put that on my personal statement? Hell no. Like most of you, I lied on my personal statement and filled it with the usual tripe that still makes me cringe whenever I think about it. I will probably publish my personal statement on my blog but only when I am ready to quit blogging as it will completely destroy my credibility.

I have one year left of residency in what will turn out to be an eight-year ordeal. I like medicine well enough and being an Emergency Medicine Physician is kind of cool. I have also just signed a contract for a lot, a lot of money and even got a big signing bonus. I am looking forward to getting done with residency and working for real in about a year but folks, the things you think are so important now, your extra-curricular activities, your passion for this and that...they will have faded to insignificance by the time you are done to be replaced with new interests and new priorities. Your (my) personal statements, extracurricular activities, travels to Guatemala to immerse yourselves in other cultures are either lies or self-delusions which are the same thing when you think about it.

High-five! Good for you man. If you take care of your patients and care for their well being who gives a **** why you went into medicine....oh yeah, the frustrated premeds who like to hold people up to their own moral standards.

In all seriousness though, good for you.

 

[Little Etoile]

Well if it is fluff (and beyond some level I agree it is) then why do you seem to be condoning lying or exaggerating it? Seems like if it is unimportant, then there is no reason to lie about this sort of thing...especially if it really doesn't matter...but you seem to be saying that since it really doesn't matter, all the more reason to exaggerate or lie...

Sorry, but I don't get that reasoning - it is still lying - don't justify the lying because you think the thing being lied about is not really important.

I'm not sure I follow the point of your post. (And that may just be a reflection on my verbal reasoning skills.) If all that stuff is just fluff, and doesn't matter anyway, then why lie about it. Just tell the truth, and let your numbers and interview skills carry you. I agree that it's ridiculously hard to get into med school now. I agree that how many mission trips to Africa you participated in, how many hours you volunteered in a hospital, how many soup kitchens you volunteer at, maybe even how many research publications you have...these factors will probably make little difference in how good a doctor you will be. And considering that there are probably 2 qualified candidates for every 1 position in a US med school means that these (arguably meaningless) factors actually do make a difference. But does that make lying about them any less morally objectionable? The fact is, some people maintained the grades they did, and still managed to do these things. Will they necessarily make better doctors? No. But can you really blame an adcom, which has to reject thousands of qualified applicants, for latching on to any and all factors that set people apart? Not really. The truth is, to a certain extent, great ECs are almost a necessity now.

Are the expectations bordering on unreasonable? Maybe. But that doesn't make it okay to lie. Will $4.00 gas prices make drive-offs at the gas pump okay? I mean, many people can't afford prices that high...

To both of you: read back over my post please. No where in there did I condone lying. I specificially said, "...what people are arguing..." because whether lying is okay or not wasn't the point I was arguing. I was debating what I thought was the assertion that because someone (seemingly) did more random ECs than somebody else, they are more qualified to be a doctor. Rereading mdgator's post, I realize that he/she was pointing out that it sucks to know that people who are willing to lie may be grabbing seats from people that are just as qualified, but not willing to compromise their morals to stand out. I completely agree with this.

 

[VoiceofReason]

If you disagree with panda then you are not in touch with humanity.

 

[flip26]

To both of you: read back over my post please. No where in there did I condone lying. I specificially said, "...what people are arguing..." because whether lying is okay or not wasn't the point I was arguing. I was debating what I thought was the assertion that because someone (seemingly) did more random ECs than somebody else, they are more qualified to be a doctor. Rereading mdgator's post, I realize that he/she was pointing out that it sucks to know that people who are willing to lie may be grabbing seats from people that are just as qualified, but not willing to compromise their morals to stand out. I completely agree with this.

Interesting that 2 posters read your post and came to the same conclusion.

Maybe you should re-read your own post. You seemed to clearly be indicating that lying about fluff like ECs is justifiable and not a big deal since it is really not all that important...very strange reasoning.

 

[Little Etoile]

Right, lying doesn't matter, as long as you get to be a doctor. Someday, you'll be the doctor who sells prescriptions and falsifies insurance claims. Hey, it will make you richer, and in the end, what really matters? Your lack of morals will catch up to you someday.

Again, not promoting lying on apps, but I hardly think that adding in a few extra ECs or exaggerating the number of hours you worked somewhere is on the same level as selling prescriptions.

 

[flip26]

Again, not promoting lying on apps, but I hardly think that adding in a few extra ECs or exaggerating the number of hours you worked somewhere is on the same level as selling prescriptions.

You are undermining your credibility (and integrity) with posts like these...you either have great difficulty expressing yourself, or you have a really off center moral compass...please don't come back and tell me to re-read this post because I have somehow misconstrued what you were saying...you are clearly saying here that lying about ECs on a med school app is OK when compared to more egregious stuff...

 

[EpiPEN]

Interesting that 2 posters read your post and came to the same conclusion.

Maybe you should re-read your own post. You seemed to clearly be indicating that lying about fluff like ECs is justifiable and not a big deal since it is really not all that important...very strange reasoning.

Oh my god, 2 whole posters?!

dang.... they must be right

 

[EpiPEN]

In fact, except for the birth of my children and the time my mother-in-law had a stroke, I had never so much as been in a hospital, talked to a doctor, or had even the vaguest inkling what the medical field involved. I applied based on nothing more than a whim (which of course turned into an obsession because you need that level of interest to negotiate the application process) and had no really good reason for wanting to be a doctor except they made more than Civil Engineers, my previous career.

The truth of it is that one day I was mowing my lawn in the tropical Louisiana humidity and, when I asked my wife what it would take to hire a lawn service she replied, "Maybe if you were a rich doctor we could afford it."

And that's all there was to it. It was just a career change. A gamble that I would make better money. Now I ask you, could I have put that on my personal statement? Hell no. Like most of you, I lied on my personal statement and filled it with the usual tripe that still makes me cringe whenever I think about it. I will probably publish my personal statement on my blog but only when I am ready to quit blogging as it will completely destroy my credibility.

I have one year left of residency in what will turn out to be an eight-year ordeal. I like medicine well enough and being an Emergency Medicine Physician is kind of cool. I have also just signed a contract for a lot, a lot of money and even got a big signing bonus. I am looking forward to getting done with residency and working for real in about a year but folks, the things you think are so important now, your extra-curricular activities, your passion for this and that...they will have faded to insignificance by the time you are done to be replaced with new interests and new priorities. Your (my) personal statements, extracurricular activities, travels to Guatemala to immerse yourselves in other cultures are either lies or self-delusions which are the same thing when you think about it.

👍

 

[bawer234]

Again, not promoting lying on apps, but I hardly think that adding in a few extra ECs or exaggerating the number of hours you worked somewhere is on the same level as selling prescriptions.

Cpants actually came to this conclusion from my post on how I embelished my altruism in my PS. This was not refering to adding in EC's or volunteer hours.

 

[flip26]

Oh my god, 2 whole posters?!

dang.... they must be right

Why don't you opine on her post, or just STFU?

On second thought, just STFU and get back to your lying and cheating ways.

Buh bye!

 

[EpiPEN]

You're right. A lot of people lie to get in med school. A lot of people also kill, steal, and exploit for a million other reasons. Doesn't make it right. If one of your lies gets you into med school, you are essentially stealing that spot from someone equally qualified who didn't lie. Why lie to get in? Why not bribe your way in? Why not blackmail someone? Why not sabotage all the competition? Not because these things are any worse, ethically. Simply because lying is easier.

clearly lying and killing someone falls in the same category. And people who lie on their apps don't do it becuase that's what they can tolerate the ethics of killing, but becasue they are too lazy to go out and kill the other applicants. Oh if only I was a more motivated applicant a few months ago...

Stealing and "essentially stealing" is where you make a connection between two things that are NOT the same. It's like if I was to say, you buying more food than you can eat or buying lots of luxurious foos is essentially taking food from hungry people who can't afford to buy food because you are fueling the food inflation.

 

[bawer234]

Why don't you opine on her post, or just STFU?

On second thought, just STFU and get back to your lying and cheating ways.

Buh bye!

Alright, I can see your perspective and I agree on a lot of levels with what you are saying, but we don't have to start fighting about this.

 

[Tutmos]

This thread is a riot. I'll preface this with the fact that I'm a non-traditional that owns a company that does large volume background checks on people, for housing and employers. The type of things people are mentioning lying about in this thread are easily verifiable and at a pretty low price.

After reading through this thread I had a mild epiphany. I've been looking for more charity type work to include in my application next year, plus it's good for marketing materials to give back to the community. I think I'm going to volunteer the services of my company to the medical schools I'm going to apply to, or perhaps those that I won't to avoid a potential conflict of interest, to verify all information on applications. That'll be a pretty major volunteer credit I get to list plus it would thin out the applicant ranks pretty dramatically as people are caught "padding" their applications. We catch people doing it constantly on the employment background checks so I expect it would be even worse for medical schools. This could be quite fun and could you imagine the whining and complaining people would do after being caught and losing everything they'd been working for just because they couldn't refrain from lying?

 

[flip26]

Alright, I can see your perspective and I agree on a lot of levels with what you are saying, but we don't have to start fighting about this.

Agreed.

 

[EpiPEN]

Why don't you opine on her post, or just STFU?

On second thought, just STFU and get back to your lying and cheating ways.

Buh bye!

Sounds like someone needs to go to the corner and chill out 🙄

Don't burst an aneurysm now I wouldn't want to have to force you to any doctor who doesn't have as much "morals" as you

 

[Begaster]

Man. You got beaten up a lot as a kid, didn't you?

Glad I wasn't the only one thinking it.

 

[EpiPEN]

Again, you justify your lying based on a false assumption about the behavior of others - you go so far as to say that ALL med school applicants lie on their apps, and that is so extremely cynical that I do not see how you are ever going to trust any of your colleagues if that is your underlying opinion of them.

Who am I to judge people who lie and cheat? We are all not only entitled but obligated to judge the ethical behavior of others, and more importantly, to uphold the highest ethical standards in our own actions.

It's called I don't judge people the way you do. I accept whatever they chose as their survival strategy in life and in school as long as they have the stuff to back up what they boast.

 

[radi0headfan]

i think adcoms sort of like ppl who didnt have 9823749237 EC's and volunteering activities during undergrad... shows that the person has a life... im glad i wasnt pre-med in college-- seems like id be surrounded by ppl that get way too caught up in some kind of pathetic hype

about your friend lying, i dont think its necessary to get into a good school.. i cant really compete with some of the lists ive seen on mdapplicants, but if you have an interest in the things you're doing and can convey the substance behind your interest, i think it will catch the adcoms eyes even more.. after a certain point, i think the adcoms can tell if something gets unrealistic ..of course, ppl can get away with making things up, but i guess it depends on how comfortable you are doing that...if you dont feel comfortable lying, then dont do it

im not going to get into the whole argument of whether someone should or shouldnt lie... thats a topic that will take way too much typing.. but let me say one thing-- to the ppl that want to call adcoms and get others in trouble for lying, you ppl are way too judgmental for your own good and probably think you know whats best for the world 👎 ..ive heard the "they will make a bad doctor" argument too many times, but jumping through some hoops in life does not imply that they will shaft people as a doctor, or increase the chances of doing so..doctors normally have a lot more things riding on them besides their conscience..i would say its safe to assume that there are honest ppl that are terrible doctors, dishonest ppl that are great doctors, honest ppl that are great doctors, dishonest ppl that are...anyways, you get the point ..just worry about yourself b/c there's no way you can worry about everyone else, and even if you did, the outcome would probably be the same

as panda bear pretty much indicated above, this whole process starts to be like "dance, monkey, dance!!" ..asking ppl to write essays upon essays about themselves seems like the recipe for disaster ..the resulting disaster is usually constipated premeds that embellish every activity they've ever done

 

[lilnoelle]

meh, I don't think lying really gets anyone anywhere in the application process.

I think admins have enough experience in the application process to know when a person is lying or not. I think they look more at numbers anyway. Numbers, good LOR's, and a desireable personality. None of those are fakeable.

n=1, but I didn't try to make myself look better than I really am in the application process. In fact, I thought I wouldn't get in because I had very little going for me in comparison to the rest of you guys.... I got in, and I didn't have to lie to do it. There were a few uncomfortable periods in my interviews when I didn't have a great answer....

Did you have any leadership positions in college?
Ummmm.... no, but I consider myself a leader.

Have you done any volunteering? Not really - unless you consider working in the church nursery once a month volunteering.

What kind of shadowing have you done?
Well.... I have had a hard time finding time to shadow because I have two children and I work a full time job. I spent some time shadowing this doctor and this doctor, and have spent plenty of time at the Ob's office and Ped's office as a patient/mother of patient, does that count?

Lucky enough for me, I didn't discover SDN until AFTER my interviews so I didn't know that I needed to embellish. I think if I had been comparing myself to all of you guys, I would've had a much harder time.

 

[EpiPEN]

What kind of shadowing have you done?
Well.... I have had a hard time finding time to shadow because I have two children and I work a full time job. I spent some time shadowing this doctor and this doctor, and have spent plenty of time at the Ob's office and Ped's office as a patient/mother of patient, does that count?

Lucky enough for me, I didn't discover SDN until AFTER my interviews so I didn't know that I needed to embellish. I think if I had been comparing myself to all of you guys, I would've had a much harder time.

That's what we call a killer EC 😀

 

[flip26]

It's called I don't judge people the way you do. I accept whatever they chose as their survival strategy in life and in school as long as they have the stuff to back up what they boast.

So anything goes? Lie, cheat, steal? Where is the line?

You speak of "survival strategies" for pre-meds akin to what, say, a refugee or homeless person has to do to "survive" life on the streets. Hardly comparable.

Oh, and you are judging others, you just don't realize it - you have "judged" that ALL med school applicants lie - that is a blanket judgment, and a pretty cynical one at that.

 

[Little Etoile]

Interesting that 2 posters read your post and came to the same conclusion.

Maybe you should re-read your own post. You seemed to clearly be indicating that lying about fluff like ECs is justifiable and not a big deal since it is really not all that important...very strange reasoning.

You're right. I *don't* think it's a big deal. If people want to do that, that's their own choice and probably a general strategy in life that they employ. It has its pros and cons, just like any other strategy. It's just one way that people get by and they have to live with that decision.

And yes, it affects me and others, but I've always been of the mindset that as long as I'm doing good work and upholding my own ethics, that's what's most important at the end of the day. I was just playing devil's advocate and pointing out I could see why people feel comfortable doing it. That doesn't mean I'm justifying it i.e. saying that it's right or people should be excused for it.

 

[Dazedinvt]

Without knowing you or your profile (stats, EC qualities, PS and essay quality, etc) or when/where you applied, it is impossible to say why you did not get in.

But I am fairly confident that the reason is NOT because you did not lie on your app or in your interviews. Don't fall into that trap. Improve your app, work on your interview skills, get some additional experiences, rewrite your PS from scratch and have people critique it, apply "better" or more broadly, apply early, etc...

so yeah I totally agree. whether I got in or not depends on my app but I think it is really valuable to be able to really shine your sh** up. I mean you can't deny that some people have a special ability to make themselves look good and I am not saying that that is the same as lying.

I thought the same thing after I posted (that there are a whole lot of reasons why I got rejections). However, I do think that at least a small part of whether you get in is how you sell yourself and that was the point of my post however poorly communicated.

 

[EpiPEN]

So anything goes? Lie, cheat, steal? Where is the line?

If you have trouble discerning where the line is, then that is not something I can teach you.

You speak of "survival strategies" for pre-meds akin to what, say, a refugee or homeless person has to do to "survive" life on the streets. Hardly comparable.

Wake up and smell the darwinism. We all have our own methods of coping with the stresses the obsticals that life presents us. You somehow have trouble understanding the relationship between the different survival strategies that people are faced to use in life, yet you seem to have no trouble what so ever generalizing people who emboss their application to any degree to be the same as those who cheat, steal, and kill.

Oh, and you are judging others, you just don't realize it - you have "judged" that ALL med school applicants lie - that is a blanket judgment, and a pretty cynical one at that.

I will stand corrected on this issue as I agree I do make the judgement that people are capable of doing what is necessary to get to their goals. But unlike you, I have made peace with those situations becuase I know that it doesn't mean jack to me whether or not someone is a good applicant, as it has little to do with whether or not he/she will make a good DOCTOR. So I could care less if someone in my medical team didn't do the full 400 hours of community service that he said he did as long as that person knows exactly what to do to save people's lives.

 

[flip26]

so yeah I totally agree. whether I got in or not depends on my app but I think it is really valuable to be able to really shine your sh** up. I mean you can't deny that some people have a special ability to make themselves look good and I am not saying that that is the same as lying.

I thought the same thing after I posted (that there are a whole lot of reasons why I got rejections). However, I do think that at least a small part of whether you get in is how you sell yourself and that was the point of my post however poorly communicated.

I agree with everything you have said here.

Selling oneself is an acquired skill - some people are born with it - but most people have to work at it.

And there is a huge difference between putting oneself in the best possible light and fabricating or exaggerating activities, etc., on the app...it seems as though some of the people participating on this thread do not see or care where that line is...

 

[flip26]

If you have trouble discerning where the line is, then that is not something I can teach you.

Dude, for you there is no line. Anything goes in "survival strategy / darwin" mode. Really nothing more than screwed up rationalization to justify your own deficient morality and ethics.

 

[Dazedinvt]

I agree with everything you have said here.

Selling oneself is an acquired skill - some people are born with it - but most people have to work at it.

And there is a huge difference between putting oneself in the best possible light and fabricating or exaggerating activities, etc., on the app...it seems as though some of the people participating on this thread do not see or care where that line is...

yup. exactly.

 

[flip26]

So I could care less if someone in my medical team didn't do the full 400 hours of community service that he said he did as long as that person knows exactly what to do to save people's lives.

But will you care when someone on your medical team misrepresents his abilities or knowledge, or lies about a situation to save his own skin, putting you and a patient in jeopardy? Cuz remember, you are the survival strategist for whom anything goes...

People who lie and cheat like to think it is like turning a water faucet on and off, and that they are always in control of the flow of BS from the spigot...at what point in your medical education and career are you planning to stop lying and cheating?

 

[EpiPEN]

Dude, for you there is no line. Anything goes in "survival strategy / darwin" mode. Really nothing more than screwed up rationalization to justify your own deficient morality and ethics.

Well first of all, personal attacks make your argument VERY convincing. Second, You want me to draw a line whereas I've stated that people all lie to a degree; so the question is not a matter of if, but how much each person does it. The line between what's approperate and what's not, like I said, is up to the individual and not up to me to tell you. But you somehow take it as meaning I have no morals and that I have a deficit in morality.

 

[Little Etoile]

You are undermining your credibility (and integrity) with posts like these...you either have great difficulty expressing yourself, or you have a really off center moral compass...please don't come back and tell me to re-read this post because I have somehow misconstrued what you were saying...you are clearly saying here that lying about ECs on a med school app is OK when compared to more egregious stuff...

I don't think I have difficulties expressing myself. I think you have a hard time with reading comprehension matched with a tendency to take people's posts to the extreme and corner them into a definitive position they weren't assuming.

You're right. I believe that saying someone volunteered for 1000 hours vs. the actual 100 hours somewhere is nowhere near the level of selling prescriptions. I don't think I need to detail why, nor do I think people would argue against my position. However, AGAIN, I never once said that it is okay to do this and what I said doesn't undermine my credibility or integrity (whereas unsubstantiated reactionary posts with profanity do... hmmm...). It shows I have simple skills in logic.

For example:
Stealing a piece of candy from a grocery store: wrong. No arguments here. People affected? A few. Your little brother may have seen you do it and now thinks stealing is okay. The grocery store and candy company don't make as high of a profit. Boo. Etc.

Stealing large sums of money from the non-profit you are volunteering at when no one is looking: wrong. No arguments here. People affected? Probably a lot. Jobs may be cut, as well as services the non-profit provides, which can trickle-down and affect the quality of other services the non-profit provides... etc.

Both are wrong and I would never argue that either are okay. Likewise, lying on apps and selling prescriptions are both wrong and I would never argue that either of these are okay, either. In fact, I *never* did. I'm going to say it again: read back over my posts and find where I did. If you can offer something up, I will happily try to clarify and apologize for any confusion. Instead you've repeatedly tried to corner me into an argument I was never trying to make.

Back to the point of my admittedly imperfect analogy: the actions committed in all of the scenarios are wrong, but to varying degrees. Can you argue this? Or would you make the same claim that selling prescriptions is analogous to embellishing a few ECs on your app?

 

[EpiPEN]

But will you care when someone on your medical team misrepresents his abilities or knowledge, or lies about a situation to save his own skin, putting you and a patient in jeopardy? Cuz remember, you are the survival strategist for whom anything goes...

Like I've stated in many posts back, people who can't back up with what they boast, will be weeded out by the process. Do you honestly believe what a person wrote down on their med school application is an accurate predictor of what kind of doctor they will become?

You are the one who jumped boat from your original strict rule of morality when it comes to lying to saying that it's okay to present yourself in the best way possible. Well let me ask you, where do YOU draw the line? I would not be suprised if many would consider your methods of "selling yourself" as lying in some form or another.

People who lie and cheat like to think it is like turning a water faucet on and off, and that they are always in control of the flow of BS from the spigot...at what point in your medical education and career are you planning to stop lying and cheating?

I'm not sure if you are speaking from your own lying personal experience or if you are just so high and mighty that you seem to think you have some expert opinion that holds true. I love the way how you accuse me of making generalizations about the med school applicants but exempt yourself from any logical fallacies.

 

[flip26]

Well first of all, personal attacks make your argument VERY convincing. Second, You want me to draw a line whereas I've stated that people all lie to a degree; so the question is not a matter of if, but how much each person does it. The line between what's approperate and what's not, like I said, is up to the individual and not up to me to tell you. But you somehow take it as meaning I have no morals and that I have a deficit in morality.

Umm, wrong.

We do not live in a self-determined ethical standard, morally relativist society. We have generally agreed upon rules of personal conduct in our society.

Lying and cheating are wrong. Period. Some lying/cheating is worse than others (at least the consequences are worse). But all lying/cheating is wrong.

By your positions you have presented on this thread, you do seem to have an ethical/moral deficit. Sorry, but that is what comes through to me...

Good luck.

 

[EpiPEN]

...
Both are wrong and I would never argue that either are okay. Likewise, lying on apps and selling prescriptions are both wrong and I would never argue that either of these are okay, either. In fact, I *never* did. I'm going to say it again: read back over my posts and find where I did. If you can offer something up, I will happily try to clarify and apologize for any confusion. Instead you've repeatedly tried to corner me into an argument I was never trying to make.

Back to the point of my admittedly non-perfect analogy: the actions committed in all of the scenarios are wrong, but to varying degrees. Can you argue this? Or would you make the same claim that selling prescriptions is analogous to embellishing a few ECs on your app?

So according to him, if TWO posters think that he's mis-interpreting other people's posts, then he must be... hm....🙄

 

[Begaster]

You're judging him to have an ethical/moral deficit based on an Internet discussion?

 

[flip26]

Do you honestly believe what a person wrote down on their med school application is an accurate predictor of what kind of doctor they will become?

I honestly believe that what a person lies about on their med school application, or on their resume, or to their employer, or to their spouse, or to the police, or to a judge, etc., reflects their underlying character and integrity, and for people who are entering into a profession where they will be directly responsible for others lives, I think that character and integrity matter a great deal and directly impact what kind of doctor they will become.

Go be a car salesman. Your standards are probably too high for them, but being such a darwinist, you will adapt.

 

[EpiPEN]

Umm, wrong.

We do not live in a self-determined ethical standard, morally relativist society. We have generally agreed upon rules of personal conduct in our society.

Lying and cheating are wrong. Period. Some lying/cheating is worse than others (at least the consequences are worse). But all lying/cheating is wrong.

By your positions you have presented on this thread, you do seem to have an ethical/moral deficit. Sorry, but that is what comes through to me...

Good luck.

And good luck to you too. It's funny that you said a few posts back that you find it hard that I will be able to work with any of my colleague whereas I would much more worry that for yourself with overly judgemental if not very confusing ethics. Based on what you have said, lying and cheating is wrong, and you said in your previous post, lying is not somthing you turn on and off in life becuase once it's on it's on. So tell me, how many colleagues do YOU think you will have that you can even bare to work with?

For you to be ready to judge someone as having an ethical/moral deficit based on someone's tolerance of everyone's stratiges in life as long as they have the skills to back up what they say. Well, I don't even know where to begin with you.

 

[flip26]

So according to him, if TWO posters think that he's mis-interpreting other people's posts, then he must be... hm....🙄

What have I misinterpreted in your posts? You do think that lying on a med school app is OK, right? Survival strategies, all that darwinist BS, right? You add to it "as long as they can back up their boast" or some qualifier like that, but have I misinterpreted you basic position on lying?

 

[cpants]

Like I've stated in many posts back, people who can't back up with what they boast, will be weeded out by the process. Do you honestly believe what a person wrote down on their med school application is an accurate predictor of what kind of doctor they will become?

If you found a way, would it be ok to cheat on the MCAT?

 

[mdgator]

I'm out, for now. This seems to have turned more to personal argument than a debate of ethics.

However, I think we can all agree that some of the criteria that are used today to judge pre-meds have little meaning, at best. Many people volunteer and reach out to others because they feel convicted to do so, often totally out of their own altruism. But, I would venture to say that if these things ceased to be considerations for adcoms, the vast majority of pre-meds would greatly reduce their involvment in such activities, if not quit them altogether. Does that make them horrible people? No. We as pre-meds work extremely hard to make the grades that are necessary, gain clinical exposure, and (very often) work to save money. You can't blame us for not wanting to sacrifice the precious few hours of personal time we may have; you can't blame us for wanting to have a normal life. You have to ask yourself exactly how meaningful the number of hours volunteered really are. I can understand everyone's frustration.

 

[EpiPEN]

I honestly believe that what a person lies about on their med school application, or on their resume, or to their employer, or to their spouse, or to the police, or to a judge, etc., reflects their underlying character and integrity, and for people who are entering into a profession where they will be directly responsible for others lives, I think that character and integrity matter a great deal and directly impact what kind of doctor they will become.

Go be a car salesman. Your standards are probably too high for them, but being such a darwinist, you will adapt.

I would love to stoop to your level and make some comment about how your personality and your so called "morals" reminds me of someone who would have been very successful during with Salem Witch Hunts or perhaps be a perfect right hand man to McCarthy during the Red Hunt in persecuting thousands of innocent people. But I am only THAT cynical on Friday.

You know, you should be an academic advisor, we could send you overseas to Iraq and you would do more damage to them than our government ever did.

 

[flip26]

I'm out, for now. This seems to have turned more to personal argument than a debate of ethics.

However, I think we can all agree that some of the criteria that are used today to judge pre-meds have little meaning, at best. Many people volunteer and reach out to others because they feel convicted to do so, often totally out of their own altruism. But, I would venture to say that if these things ceased to be considerations for adcoms, the vast majority of pre-meds would greatly reduce their involvment in such activities, if not quit them altogether. Does that make them horrible people? No. We as pre-meds work extremely hard to make the grades that are necessary, gain clinical exposure, and (very often) work to save money. You can't blame us for not wanting to sacrifice the precious few hours of personal time we may have; you can't blame us for wanting to have a normal life. You have to ask yourself exactly how meaningful the number of hours volunteered really are. I can understand everyone's frustration.

Count me out too.

And I agree with you here on the hoops and hurdles aspect of med school apps. If it weren't a requirement to do the volunteer/clinical/shadowing bit, while I might do a little of it just to expose myself to the environment, I sure as hell wouldn't put in all the hours I have been putting in...and I resent people who cavalierly lie about these activities on their apps.