What sort/how much research makes a competitive applicant?

[deleted674723]

I just finished up my first year of med school and am very much interested in ortho. I am at a huge research institute, but had multiple issues with the ortho faculty in trying to do research with them this summer. I am working with a breast surgeon instead. I am also doing some derm research on the side.

My questions are predominantly:
1) does it really not matter if my research isn't directly in ortho?
2) How can I make connections in the ortho department without doing research with them?
3)And what level of "publication" carries weight in a residency? As in, how valuable is say being second author on an abstract presented at a national conference but not published compared to a first author publication in a journal?
4) What does a typical average accepted applicant's research look like? I know there is data published that says something like 3-4 research experiences with 8 "pubs" but specifically can anyone give me examples? Like what would those 8 "pubs be? I haven't been able to find a good discussion.
Bonus unrelated question) Does ortho give a **** that I go to a top 3 med school? I imagine not.

Thanks so much! I appreciate your time.

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[VincentAdultman]

I just finished up my first year of med school and am very much interested in ortho. I am at a huge research institute, but had multiple issues with the ortho faculty in trying to do research with them this summer. I am working with a breast surgeon instead. I am also doing some derm research on the side.

My questions are predominantly:
1) does it really not matter if my research isn't directly in ortho?

The most important thing is that you are able to speak competently on the research you do. Having said that you're only a rising MS2 so you have time to get involved in some Ortho project.


2) How can I make connections in the ortho department without doing research with them?

You do a rotation in their department. That's the easiest way. I was able to spend three weeks on Ortho as part of my surg rotation MS3 in addition to my fourth year elective.

3)And what level of "publication" carries weight in a residency? As in, how valuable is say being second author on an abstract presented at a national conference but not published compared to a first author publication in a journal?

Obviously being first author on a published paper is great but it's not a deal breaker if your not. A lot of factors that aren't necessarily in your control go into that.

4) What does a typical average accepted applicant's research look like? I know there is data published that says something like 3-4 research experiences with 8 "pubs" but specifically can anyone give me examples? Like what would those 8 "pubs be? I haven't been able to find a good discussion.
Bonus unrelated question) Does ortho give a **** that I go to a top 3 med school? I imagine not.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...ggpMAI&usg=AFQjCNEjburAzAC-N6X6KXge1hcoDPyLFA

This is from 2002 take it for what it's worth. So based on this survey your med school rank is actually a little more valuable than doing research, but things like Step One, Letters of rec, and performance on your away rotations are much more important.

Thanks so much! I appreciate your time.

 

[deleted674723]

Thanks so much for the reply!

A couple follow ups: Is it too late to get in with the ortho docs at my school by third year? I feel like many students at my school are already camping out at rounds and spending tons of time with the ortho faculty. I really want to focus on other things now but if the networking piece is important in the early years I can do that.
I will definitely be involved in an ortho project at some point but the majority of my research will probably be in breast recon because this summer will be my most productive. Is it going to be hard to explain why I did so much research that WASNT ortho? The only thing I can say is that I tried to and ended up with a backup plan due to things out of my control.
Finally, so much has changed in 15 years that I find that very hard to put much emphasis on. If you are in academics I would take your personal opinion with more weight than that. Do you think it helps at all to be at a top 3 school?

 

[VincentAdultman]

Thanks so much for the reply!

A couple follow ups: Is it too late to get in with the ortho docs at my school by third year? I feel like many students at my school are already camping out at rounds and spending tons of time with the ortho faculty. I really want to focus on other things now but if the networking piece is important in the early years I can do that.

I think it depends on what the other things are that you want to focus on. Networking doesn't hurt and a lot of students hang out at Grand Rounds. I did not do much prior to third year, but I graduated in 2007 so take that for what it's worth.

I will definitely be involved in an ortho project at some point but the majority of my research will probably be in breast recon because this summer will be my most productive. Is it going to be hard to explain why I did so much research that WASNT ortho? The only thing I can say is that I tried to and ended up with a backup plan due to things out of my control.

If you get involved in an othopods project before your application goes out you should be fine provided you can talk about it intellegently at an interview.

Finally, so much has changed in 15 years that I find that very hard to put much emphasis on. If you are in academics I would take your personal opinion with more weight than that. Do you think it helps at all to be at a top 3 school?

I'm not in academics but I feel pretty comfortable in saying that Step One, letters of rec, AOA, and your away rotations are among the things most closely looked at. And yeah. Med school reputation matters too.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

I'm not in academics but I feel pretty comfortable in saying that Step One, letters of rec, AOA, and your away rotations are among the things most closely looked at. And yeah. Med school reputation matters too.

I am in academics and I agree with this.

 

[deleted674723]

I'm not in academics but I feel pretty comfortable in saying that Step One, letters of rec, AOA, and your away rotations are among the things most closely looked at. And yeah. Med school reputation matters too.

One last thought on the AOA. Do they take into consideration the school rank in the weight of this? As in its probably significantly harder to make the top 10-15% of your class at Harvard than at Florida State. My class is filled to the brim with gunners. I can hang for sure but I'm not so sure about top 10-15%. Also, do students weigh in on who gets selected? It says on the AOA website that they do? That makes me think its somewhat of a popularity contest...

 

[VincentAdultman]

One last thought on the AOA. Do they take into consideration the school rank in the weight of this? As in its probably significantly harder to make the top 10-15% of your class at Harvard than at Florida State. My class is filled to the brim with gunners. I can hang for sure but I'm not so sure about top 10-15%. Also, do students weigh in on who gets selected? It says on the AOA website that they do? That makes me think its somewhat of a popularity contest...

I don't know. I wasn't AOA and I think it varies by school.

 

[massmocha]

One last thought on the AOA. Do they take into consideration the school rank in the weight of this? As in its probably significantly harder to make the top 10-15% of your class at Harvard than at Florida State. My class is filled to the brim with gunners. I can hang for sure but I'm not so sure about top 10-15%. Also, do students weigh in on who gets selected? It says on the AOA website that they do? That makes me think its somewhat of a popularity contest...

AOA varies school by school, many don't have AOA because they feel that "all their students would be AOA". School reputation matters and department chairs love to have an intern class full of Ivy League students, but definitely way down on the list behind Step 1, Clinical grades, letters of rec, fit with the program. For what it's worth I am at a "top research program" and my only research was master's thesis and second author on a non-ortho paper, and a local poster presentation for the ortho project I worked on as a fourth year.

I didn't know I wanted to do ortho until after my surgery rotation as a third year, so it's definitely possible to get in without 8 publications. It helped to have a good Step 1, AOA, and all honors. If you're strong in those areas you should be good.

 

[lodestar]

Just another opine about research...my daughter, like massmocha above, discovered Ortho pretty late. She had been fairly SURE for a good while that she wanted to go into derm (she had also considered ENT, Plastics, and Ophtho)...until she rotated late in the process thru Ortho, and knew IMMEDIATELY that Ortho was her calling. She knew that she had a knack and bent for surgery. She had to scramble late to get some research in...I think that the research just dotted the I's.

The REAL key seemed to have been her 93rd percentiles on Step 1 and Step 2. (By the way, the MCAT seems to correlate only 30% to step scores). Female Orthopods are still pretty rare (lowest ratio in any specialty), but she had no trouble getting as many interviews as she could schedule including several surely in the top 20 programs. Intuitively, a highly regarded school (top 5 for competitive entry) certainly did not hurt. She also SMOKED her aways (got glowing recs) with her ingratiating team player spirit. She matched at her first choice-- her home school. She is wrapping up her intern year and loves Ortho, notwithstanding the antiquated ways of the VA hospital where everybody must put in her/his time.

 

[OrthoBod]

Just another opine about research...my daughter, like massmocha above, discovered Ortho pretty late. She had been fairly SURE for a good while that she wanted to go into derm (she had also considered ENT, Plastics, and Ophtho)...until she rotated late in the process thru Ortho, and knew IMMEDIATELY that Ortho was her calling. She knew that she had a knack and bent for surgery. She had to scramble late to get some research in...I think that the research just dotted the I's.

The REAL key seemed to have been her 93rd percentiles on Step 1 and Step 2. (By the way, the MCAT seems to correlate only 30% to step scores). Female Orthopods are still pretty rare (lowest ratio in any specialty), but she had no trouble getting as many interviews as she could schedule including several surely in the top 20 programs. Intuitively, a highly regarded school (top 5 for competitive entry) certainly did not hurt. She also SMOKED her aways (got glowing recs) with her ingratiating team player spirit. She matched at her first choice-- her home school. She is wrapping up her intern year and loves Ortho, notwithstanding the antiquated ways of the VA hospital where everybody must put in her/his time.

Proud Father.. =)
For some reason, it felt good to read it.
Are you an attending youself?

 

[lodestar]

re:
Proud Father.. =)
For some reason, it felt good to read it.
Are you an attending yourself?

~~~~~~

No, retired now...just a supportive dad. We were fortunate that our 3 children were so easy to rear-- the Prodigy Progeny I dubbed them. They are all quite accomplished.

SDN became something of a hobby for me...I first got interested helping her explore medical schools, and then later specialty options. There is a lot of good info here if one takes the time to sort thru it.

 

[deleted674723]

re:
Proud Father.. =)
For some reason, it felt good to read it.
Are you an attending yourself?

~~~~~~

No, retired now...just a supportive dad. We were fortunate that our 3 children were so easy to rear-- the Prodigy Progeny I dubbed them. They are all quite accomplished.

SDN became something of a hobby for me...I first got interested helping her explore medical schools, and then later specialty options. There is a lot of good info here if one takes the time to sort thru it.

I appreciate the input. I will focus on step scores before stressing about the rest of the process.