What's so bad about 1800PetMeds?

Discussion in 'Pre-Veterinary' started by KittenKiller, May 3, 2007.

  1. KittenKiller

    KittenKiller chop suey
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    Ok, its been a mantra in both the clinic's I've worked in that PetMeds is pure evil. Docs and techs hate it with a vehemence usually reserved for the likes of Hitler and Stalin. I've heard all sorts of weird stories - from "they smuggle their meds from mexico" to "they ship the wrong product all the time" to "they get quack vets to sell it to them below cost" - about why they're bad, but never seen any tangible evidence of any of it.

    When clients come in asking for a script so they can buy off PetMeds, everyone gets in a bad mood, we give it begrudgingly, and the client walks out dissatisfied, annoyed that we gave them such a hard time about it. I usually give the normal "its just evil" spiel as an excuse for why we don't support PetMeds and why they should buy through us instead. The trouble is, I'm not fully convinced myself that clinics don't just hate PetMeds because theyre taking business from brick-and-mortar vet clinics.

    So anyone know what's so bad about PetMeds that isnt simply rumor heard from the grapevine? If they were really doing illegal things, considering how huge they are, wouldn't they be shut down?
     
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  3. FishHick

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    I think they are a legit company. I think some vets dont like them because they are taking away from their profits. At the clinic I work at, we dont give anyone a hard time about going thru Petmeds. Its their choice where they want to get their meds from, and who can blame them for wanting to save some money. I havent heard any customers complain about their service either.

    We also either match or beat their prices on many things, and still manage to make a profit.
     
  4. QTkitty

    QTkitty CSU PVM class of 2011
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    As far as I know most clinics don't like Petmeds because they undercut the practice. Prescriptions are usually a large portion of the clinic's income so when they are being sent out it represents a large loss for the practice.
     
  5. chris03333

    chris03333 Veterinarian
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    Prescriptions are not really a large portion of income, suprisingly. The reason that Petmeds is so hated is because they do get there meds from other countries and then the manufacter revokes the guarantee. So if Joe shmo's dog had a reaction to advantage that Joe bought in my clinic and advantage is proven to have caused the reaction, Joe's dog's treatment cam be reimbursed by the company. If Joe had decided to get that product from petmeds he would be sh!t out of luck...:(
     
  6. ckitten

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    We have a policy that we do not give scripts to petmeds. It's really for both reasons--the lack of guarantee and the loss of income. We'll give the script to the client if they want and they can take it wherever, but we won't deal directly with petmeds. We are corporate (i feel like i just called myself the borg, ugh;) ) and so the company sets the rules on how to save every last bit of possible income...
     
  7. bakaduin

    bakaduin UF CVM Class of 2012
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    Heres a good reason to hate PetMeds. One of the employees who works at the vet office I work at used to be a PetMed employee. What was her job you ask? To take off the expiration dates on meds that were going to expire and put on new expiration dates.
     
  8. KittenKiller

    KittenKiller chop suey
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  9. Angelo84

    Angelo84 Tufts Class of 2011
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    Our practice will not sign the faxed sheets but will give out written prescriptions. Pet meds drives us nuts because they know that is our policy but send us three copies anyhow and then start calling asking us why we haven't sent buddy's form back. We also explain the guarantee issues but most of our clients still want the written prescription.
     
  10. twosoakers

    twosoakers Addict & Western U '11
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    My vet told me that 1800petmeds has been ousted from Indiana because they illegally sell prescription-only drugs, and they also sell heartworm prevention meds without instructing on how heartworm prevention meds can kill a dog already infected with heartworm. Supposedly, they were cited three times or so before getting completely ousted from the state. Or so I've heard.
     
  11. wivet2011

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    We use to do the same thing at the clinic I work at...now we just write out the Rx and tape it to the faxed sheet and fax it that way. Much less of a hassel for both the clients and us.
     
  12. wivet2011

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    :eek:
     
  13. Tranquil_Cookie

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    We've noticed that the few times we DID fax back a PET-MEDS script, the clients got 2 refills or more (regardless of what the doctor puts on the form). Luckily the clients told us when we did call backs for blood tests that were needed before the next refill. Also we get requests for "clients" from different states. Some of these requests are for ex-clients who have moved away. (They even have the new address for the new state.) However, other requests are people/pets we've never even seen :confused: (and then the barrage of phone calls start). At all of our clinics we've stopped dealing with 1-800-PET-MEDS.
     
  14. mammalmama

    mammalmama Member
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    The reason why both clinics that I have worked at do not like pet meds is because #1. The drug companies like merial and bayer do not sell meds directly to pet meds. Pet meds has to buy their stock from other veterinarians and #2. Our clients have gotten counterfeit medications from them. #3. Clients get medications with chinese writing on the boxes which could be real or counterfeit we don't know. Bottom line is we don't trust them b/c we really don't know where their medications are coming from.
     
  15. Max Power

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    my friend works at a family owned pharmacy...she always tells me about all the expired drugs (like birth control!) on the shelves...needless to say i don't go there
     
  16. Nexx

    Nexx 2 weeks and counting
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    ???

    While prescriptions may not be a large portion of income, they are marked up A LOT! Generally, 100% (or more, sometimes less..) That being said, they are a large revenue builder for clinics and a veterinary pharmacy willing to only take 10% profit on meds can make a killing if they can sell in volume.

    Heartgard 6 month supply for instance, costs a clinic roughly:

    0-25lbs -- $13
    26-51lbs -- $18
    51-100lbs -- $23

    How much are they sold to your owners for? $28/$40/$55?

    Like it or not petmeds, and other companies are eating into vet's profits. They are large companies and will of course have some business practices that are less than ethical (Idexx for instance...), but boycotting them and making clients lives difficult is only going to drive your clients away.

    Anyhow I think most of the negative stigma was the change they brought about in the industry. Vets were more product based and not selling services as highly. So when petmeds emerged, their was a lash out from the veterinary community as they tried to keep the industry from changing. So I think a lot of vets are still caught up in the initial PR backlash.
     
  17. thelarson

    thelarson MSU Pre-Vet Class of 2010
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  18. StealthDog

    StealthDog U of MN 2010
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    The PetMeds controversy is far more about the dubious practices of PetMeds than the loss of money from sending out to them for prescriptions. Sure PetMeds is cheaper, but why? Questionable product, storage, expriation dates, etc. They market themselves as being so convenient because you don't have to take your poor puppy wuppy all the way into that scary old vet- but come on! Sure the vet is less convenient, but there is a reason the drugs are prescription and a reason that your vet wants to see your dog before prescribing them.

    Spend some time on VIN and you can find plenty of stories about vets being downright harassed by PetMeds when they wouldn't perform illegal actions (i.e. writing a prescription with no valid doctor/client/patient relationship).
     
  19. Bill59

    Bill59 Member
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    The biggest problem veterinarians have with petmed is they often fill unauthorized prescriptions. They will call the hospital and ask for authorization to fill a prescription an owner has requested. If the vet says no (e.g. they haven't seen the patient for that problem) petmed fills the script anyway, often including a snide comment to the client about how uncooperative their veterinarian was. For example, they have filled prescriptions for heartworm preventative for HW positive dogs.

    They've been fined several times for this type of activity but they don't stop doing it.
     
  20. Bill59

    Bill59 Member
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    If that was the case, it would be pharmacies in general. Any decent size pharmacy can beat a veterinary hospital's prices. For example, how often do you hear veterinarians complaining about walmart pharmacies?

    It just the few that behave in an unethical, unprofessional and in some cases dangerous manner.
     
  21. QTkitty

    QTkitty CSU PVM class of 2011
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    That may very well be the case. I didn't know specifically about all of the problems with petmeds selling expired or unauthorized prescription drugs. What I do know is that they advertise to the average Joe Schmo that he has other, less expensive, options than buying from his vet's office. From my experience I don't think most people (outside the vet world) know that they can go to their local pharmacy for their pet's medications.
     
  22. AuburnPreVet

    AuburnPreVet AU CVM Class of 2011
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    I agree. If wal-mart was advertising all over that when Fluffy goes to the vet, get a script and bring it on over - vets would "hate" wal-mart as well. Most clients (just from my experiences) don't say... "hmmm... prednisone, I bet I can get that at wal-mart... just gimme a script" - - but they've seen those PetMeds ads with Frontline/Heartgard mentioned all over the TV, pet magazines, etc.

    Even if they ran a PERFECTLY legit operation, a lot of vets would be against them. With that said, all of PetMeds potentially "shady" doings also add fuel to the fire.
     
  23. cyrille104

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    Some pet-owners I've talked to about this say that they know they can get the meds cheaper but don't because they don't want the vet to have a personal vendetta against them. "The next time I go to the vet the dog will be dead." :laugh:

    I'm really hoping that I'll go into something government-funded (academia or something) so I won't have to worry about this.
     
  24. sofficat

    sofficat AU CVM c/o 11
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    i have been told that petmeds used to be petmed express, but they were finally put out of business b/c of illegal acts. now they are petmeds and it takes years to put someone out of business. a bayer rep told me that. also, online companies have been fined b/c they were selling frontline plus w/o fipronyl in it (the main ingredient). and there is the having to buy it second hand since the companies don't sell to anyone but vets. and the non guarentee that comes with it. it's just icky.
     
  25. kate_g

    kate_g Senior Member
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    This all strikes me as weird because the vet I've been shadowing sends clients to pharmacies all the time, especially for oddball meds or stuff the pet is going to be on forever (heart failure, e.g.). He actually has a list of which local pharmacies can provide which drugs the cheapest. He pretty much just says "we don't get a very good deal on this from our supplier, so our price is high... you can do better if I write you a prescription and you fill it at such-and-such." Most of the time it's Costco (only works if the client has a membership), but there's a little family-owned pharmacy down the street that has managed to get into a really good buying group for some stuff. Lots of times clients will just buy at the clinic because they're coming in anyway and it's more convenient than making a separate trip to a pharmacy, but he always offers. (That said, I've never heard him suggest they go to 1-800-petmeds. But I've also never heard a client ask about it, so I have no idea what his stance is.)

    Part of this might be what Nexx mentioned... This clinic does seem to have made the transition (or maybe they were always this way) to selling services rather than pushing products. They stock meds and food and whatnot, of course, but don't seem to be counting on them for profit. Or maybe it's just a slightly more sophisticated business sense - you build trust by sending your client to a pharmacy for cheaper meds, and thereby ensure that they'll continue paying for those monthly office visits for their cat with heart failure/kidney failure/liver failure/IBD/diabetes...
     
  26. 4theanimals

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    Actually, FYI no membership required. I learned this because a specialist for one of my cats told me to go there for his meds. I told the doc I didn't have a membership and he said it didn't matter. You go to the door and tell them you just need to go to the pharmacy and they waive you on through. I've even done some of my own prescriptions there because it was cheaper.

    Specific to Petmeds - back when they first started there business (and I wasn't working at a clinic) I ordered some front line through them. Mine wasn't in Chinese but it was in German. BUT you only found that out if you peeled up the English label they placed over it. I didn't use it and never went near them again.
     
  27. RosieMoll3

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    Nexx: From a business standpoint, a clinic's prescription medication sales should not exceed 20% of its total revenue.
    Also, I can understand the financial burden of having an animal on expensive medications chronically, but if you can't shell out the $50-$100 a year for HEARTWORM PREVENTION, then maybe you should think twice about having a pet.
     
  28. Nexx

    Nexx 2 weeks and counting
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    From a business standpoint, you are correct--veterinary medicine isn't about merchandising. My point was basically to say that while meds aren't a major source of revenue per se... they probably have the greatest percentage of markup of all items. (In other words, they are far from becoming a loss-leader)

    Also, you can't make a blanket statement about the want to save some cash and affording a pet. How many people here shop the grocery store with coupons? How many of us poor college students call around for pricing to get our teeth cleaned, eyes examined, etc.. and then choose the cheapest option? It's not about being able to afford it for most people, its about being frugal with your money and spending it wisely.

    Now is petmeds the wise choice? Frankly I don't know. I have never seen hard data on fraudulent meds, foreign meds, expiry changes, etc only anecdotal evidence. Do you think Merial, Pfizer, and the other big guys would honestly say if they had a side deal with a large pharmacy that undercut the veterinary industry? How big of a storm do you think would be created if something like that were to be uncovered? They only sell to licensed vets? Okay, well I'm going to forget finishing my degree and start an online pharmacy with a vet on hire who I simply pay $500k/year to stock prescription meds. Then I just pay my pharmacist to fill everything....

    And for the record... vetcentric (which many vets use as the 'alternative' online ordering and in which they can take part of profit sharing...) is not listed under the approved VIPPS program by the AVMA, just found that interesting.
     
  29. RosieMoll3

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    I agree with you. I think frugality involves a degree of prudence. Like 4theanimals said, when you get your meds and the writing is in German, you scrap it and start over...even it means spending a little more.
    It's one thing to want to save a few bucks, but some do it at their pet's expense (including forgoing hw prev altogether)
     
  30. AuburnPreVet

    AuburnPreVet AU CVM Class of 2011
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    What makes us think that Germany (for example) has any lower standards when it comes to product claims/quality assurance. The text just happens to be in a different language.

    I guess what's being implied here is that, if they are getting foreign meds - clearly there is something sketchy going on... but, the language difference alone shouldn't imply lower quality.

    I'm not a huge Pet Meds fan myself, but - we may be over-reacting. I haven't heard of many claims (aside from random anecdotal stories) of dogs getting ill from meds bought through PMs. . . or catching HWs while on preventatives from PMs (at least not any higher % than those on preventatives from vets).
     
  31. AuburnPreVet

    AuburnPreVet AU CVM Class of 2011
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    We aren't talking about vets offering to send people to pharmacies for "odd ball meds" - we are talking about clients demanding to go to pharmacies for routine meds. Sure, many (most) vets write scripts for odd meds, or compounded meds. Who wants to have a 500ct bottle of azathioprine in a small clinic, b/c one dog a year needs some chemo?
     
  32. RosieMoll3

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    "Novartis manufactures its products outside the US for purchase in foreign countries and the medication manufactured elsewhere does not carry FDA approval"
     
  33. AuburnPreVet

    AuburnPreVet AU CVM Class of 2011
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    What does that tell us about the quality? Potentially not much.
    The US isn't the only country with standards.
    I think that was my point - final exam week... :confused:
     
  34. Nexx

    Nexx 2 weeks and counting
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    Not that the FDA has been doing a remarkable job in the past several years...

    Oh it is time for a revamping all around! Med approvals, food safety.. sigh.. That's for another thread entirely!
     
  35. 4theanimals

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  36. kate_g

    kate_g Senior Member
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    OK, but what I actually said is that this vet keeps a list of *all* the meds you can get substantially cheaper at a local pharmacy than through the clinic. Yes, that includes oddball stuff. But the point was that he actually does this for lots of perfectly routine meds, too. Limited to things where the pet is going to get the same dose a human would, obviously, or where the client could easily halve or quarter the pills.

    Anyway, it's just a difference in business strategy. He's got a lot of ageing/chronic patients who get checkups every couple weeks, which I'm sure more than makes up for the revenue lost to outside pharmacies. Plus, it's always local pharmacies he recommends, not the online/phone places.
     
  37. bakaduin

    bakaduin UF CVM Class of 2012
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    Ya know some clients try to save cash by doing the minimum (Only giving a Rabies vaccine, no HW, no flea control etc.) to save money. Is it a risk to there dog? Yes absolutely. We had a dog come in the other day, 12 year old lab pretty much close to the end and the owner had never given the dog one heartworm pill but luckily it never got infected. Your making a risk at the expense of your animal which is the same thing as buying meds from Petmeds. They could be expired, could have been produced differently in a foreign country, etc. etc.
     
  38. jnt179

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    Does anybody have any experience with Foster and Smith? I have never used them and was wondering if they have the same issues at Petmeds. It is all very interesting to me. How can anybody stay in business doing what they do? It really amazes me that people can be so low. I guess it amounts to anything to make a buck!
     
  39. ri23

    ri23 OSU CVM Class of 2011
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    I've never used Foster and Smith for medication, but I've used them for their other products and have always been happy with them.
     
  40. bakaduin

    bakaduin UF CVM Class of 2012
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    Ive used Foster and Smith to purchase fish... (from liveaquaria.com) and have NEVER been dissapointed. Always very healthy product whether its fish, live rock, inverts, or whatever! Never for meds though.
     
  41. Bill59

    Bill59 Member
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    The main grumblings about Foster and Smith is they sell vaccines to owners. But I think most veterinarians have accepted that this is here to stay. Plus owners that want to save a few dollars giving their own vaccines tend to the the "C" clients anyway so it's not really a significant economic loss.
     
  42. chris03333

    chris03333 Veterinarian
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    Yes 1800petmeds and petmed express are the same company:
    "Founded in 1996, PetMed Express is America’s Largest Pet Pharmacy, delivering prescription and non-prescription pet medications and other health products for dogs, cats and horses at competitive prices direct to the consumer through its 1-800-PetMeds toll free number and on the Internet through its website at www.1800petmeds.com."
    This is from http://www.1800petmeds.com/pressroom.asp?id=52&adate=01.22.2007

    Now we look at petmed express:
    http://search.avma.org/search?q=PetMed+Express&btnG=Go&site=avma_index&client=avma_index&proxystylesheet=avma_index&output=xml_no_dtd&restrict=news_javma%7Cnews_press



    :eek: Happy reading...why we are so fond of them:rolleyes:
     
  43. sofficat

    sofficat AU CVM c/o 11
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    Many companies (bayer is the only one i know of for sure) will investigate any order that seems out of place. for ex, if a vet orders $400,000 worth of any single product, the company will make sure that they are using it in their clinic and not selling it to any other source. that way, they avoid selling their product to a vet who will turn around and sell it to petmeds.
     
  44. spikey

    spikey penn vet 2011
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    simply why its no good: you need the client-vet relationship.

    besides the fact mentioned before that you really dont know what youre getting.
     
  45. KittenKiller

    KittenKiller chop suey
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    I'm pretty sure the rumor that shady vets sell overstock to petmeds is false. It doesn't make any financial sense: the vet buys the med at the veterinarian price, sells it to petmeds at an even higher price, and then petmeds turns around and sells it at well below cost?

    Or to quote the underpants gnomes:
    1. buy lots of meds from shady vets at high prices.
    2. ???
    3. Profit!

    What's actually happening isn't that clear, the only thing that's clear is that many of the pharmaceuticals (frontline, heartgard) PetMeds sells are NOT guaranteed by the manufacturer. This could mean a couple things. First, the manufacturer may be selling the *same* product to PetMeds without the guarantee. In a sense, the guarantee is a kind of insurance, a portion of the cost of the product that would cover any errors the manufacturer is liable for. Maybe that guarantee amounts to $10 per box of frontline, and that's what the consumer is paying for when they buy the product at the vet. Another possibility is that the product is manufactured under different standards than the guaranteed product, and the manufacturer simply doesnt want to guarantee it because they arent sure if the product is up to snuff.
     
  46. kate_g

    kate_g Senior Member
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    Actually, there's another possibility that just occurred to me... I used to work in a dollar store (I can't believe it's actually provided me with some applicable knowledge). Once we got in a huge shipment of cheddar cheese flavor Bugles snacks... labeled in Arabic! We sold them for a dollar a box, which means the store must have paid way less than that to acquire them, and it would certainly have cost way more to ship them from anywhere that Arabic packaging would be relevant. What we eventually figured out - and we got a lot of stuff this way - is that the "best by" date was only a couple months away, rather than the year or more you'd typically see on a full-priced snack. They weren't expired, but if they had been shipped to their intended far-away destination they would hardly have had any shelf life. Rather than take a loss by just throwing them out, the manufacturer sold the lot off for cheap.

    I have no evidence that 1-800-petmeds works this way, but many aspects of the business model seem very similar (including the shady rumors about the expiration-sticker-replacer-person, since selling expired meds is just one easy step down from selling almost-expired meds). In this case they wouldn't want to guarantee the meds because they've probably been through several sets of hands after leaving the plant.

    (And as far as the manufacturer only being allowed to sell to licensed veterinarians, as mentioned above... I doubt you need anything shady to get around that, petmeds just hires a licensed veterinarian as some kind of director of operations or whatever.)
     
  47. Trever

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    6
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    0
    ...and cannot believe what I am reading! Supposedly from individuals who should know better! I am going to respond to each of the entries by their number:
    1. Pure Evil? I am manager for the Partner Program, and I spend all of my day donating OTC meds, helping shelters and rescues out. Wow. That's evil.
    Second, if we acquired our meds from "Mexico" or anywhere from out of the US, the FDA and the Florida Department of Health would shut us down in a heartbeat! I can’t speak for shipping the wrong product; I do not like to talk of things I know nothing of.
    2. Undercut is such a strong word. We give the consumer a choice. They are, after all, smart people. They just want to get meds from a pharmacy they can trust as well as give great service.
    4. I am glad you mentioned that script meds are not a large portion of income. They shouldn’t be! When I go to my vet, it's to take care of my dog, not sell me things! And since you seem to know we "get our meds from other countries" from where then? How do you know this? Or is it possible that you don't really know, but that it just sounds good to say...
    We unconditionally guarantee everything from service to delivery to our meds 100%. The guarantee issue that has been bandied about for years by veterinarians is a non-issue. Question - does a vet stand behind what he sells, or passes the blame to the manufacturer, thus inconveniencing the consumer...?


    8. No most of your clients don’t want to be inconvenienced in making a special trip to the vet to pick up a script. Fax it back!

    9. Your vet needs to get his facts straight. The reason we did not have a license in Indiana was due to a program we had which help consumers get
    their HWorm meds. Nothing else. And we do now sell in Indiana and have for some time now.

    11. Just cant be done. And did you ever think that the employee may be a little disgruntled? Or bitter?
    12. No, again, CANNOT BE DONE. I don’t think the vast majority of people on this thing realize how many legislative guidelines we as a pharmacy are under. Think of it this way. The pharmacy you get your meds, we are under the same guidelines.
    13. Lets get something straight. We sell Merial and Bayer and we sell a lot. You don’t think these companies want our continued success in selling their products? I have a home and wish that I could continue this in hopes to educate some open minded people that may still be out there. I will continue this later!
    Trever
     
  48. Trever

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    ...and cannot believe what I am reading! Supposedly from individuals who should know better! I am going to respond to each of the entries by their number:
    1. Pure Evil? I am manager for the Partner Program, and I spend all of my day donating OTC meds, helping shelters and rescues out. Wow. That's evil.
    Second, if we acquired our meds from "Mexico" or anywhere from out of the US, the FDA and the Florida Department of Health would shut us down in a heartbeat! I can’t speak for shipping the wrong product; I do not like to talk of things I know nothing of.
    2. Undercut is such a strong word. We give the consumer a choice. They are, after all, smart people. They just want to get meds from a pharmacy they can trust as well as give great service.
    4. I am glad you mentioned that script meds are not a large portion of income. They shouldn’t be! When I go to my vet, it's to take care of my dog, not sell me things! And since you seem to know we "get our meds from other countries" from where then? How do you know this? Or is it possible that you don't really know, but that it just sounds good to say...
    We unconditionally guarantee everything from service to delivery to our meds 100%. The guarantee issue that has been bandied about for years by veterinarians is a non-issue. Question - does a vet stand behind what he sells, or passes the blame to the manufacturer, thus inconveniencing the consumer...?

    8. No most of your clients don’t want to be inconvenienced in making a special trip to the vet to pick up a script. Fax it back!

    9. Your vet needs to get his facts straight. The reason we did not have a license in Indiana was due to a program we had which help consumers get
    their HWorm meds. Nothing else. And we do now sell in Indiana and have for some time now.
    11. Just cant be done. And did you ever think that the employee may be a little disgruntled? Or bitter?
    12. No, again, CANNOT BE DONE. I don’t think the vast majority of people on this thing realize how many legislative guidelines we as a pharmacy are under. Think of it this way. The pharmacy you get your meds, we are under the same guidelines.
    13. Lets get something straight. We sell Merial and Bayer and we sell a lot. You don’t think these companies want our continued success in selling their products? I have a home and wish that I could continue this in hopes to educate some open minded people that may still be out there. I will continue this later!
    Trever
     
  49. Bill59

    Bill59 Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    993
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    Did you believe it when the Texas State Board of Pharmacy and Veterinary Medicine fined Petmeds over $50,000 and 3 years of probation for illegally dispensing veterinary drugs without valid prescriptions?
     
  50. KittenKiller

    KittenKiller chop suey
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2007
    Messages:
    180
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    Status:
    Veterinary Student
    LOL pet meds marketing dept is trolling our boards, sweet. :D
     
  51. JumptheMoon

    JumptheMoon UPenn Class of 2011
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2007
    Messages:
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    Status:
    Pre-Veterinary
    And not even very coherently, at that.
     

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