Why is taking gap/bridge year(s) so common? Is it necessary to get into more selective med schools?

[HopeP]

so when did we establish 22 years are not mature enough to enter medical school? Did medicine became harder or kids got dulled by social media?

precisely it is a pseudo number, some take less, some takes more, majority will be in 22-24 range.

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[HopeP]

I don’t think it’s fair to lump all of the BS/MD students into a helicopter parent paradigm…
There are lots of these kids who know what they want to do from a younger age and pursue it. I did not attend a BS/MD program but I do know that I have wanted to be a doctor ever since I was about 14 or 15 years old. Medical training in the United States is already much longer than in every other country in the world. If you take two gap years, and you want to practice in a competitive specialty, you will not be practicing until you’re in your mid thirties. That decreases a lot of potential learning power compared with almost any other profession, who earn money starting as early as 22-23 or into the mid and late 20s. Many of my “non-traditional” classmates are struggling with basic anatomy and histology, and test taking right now. Well they really make the best doctors? I don’t know. I hope they do. I really believe that the emphasis on obtaining more and more gap years is a function of the ever-increasing competitiveness of medical school admissions rather than the absolute qualifications of the applicants themselves.

Everyone is different and achieve that mindset at different stage of life. When parent share their kids experience, it is not necessarily helicoptering. Even today, my son I wonder he is definitely wants to be MD or not, he is all over the map from MD, MSTP to now academic medicine. Who knows how and when will he be matrue enough in coming years, but he is not today, he is certainly searching/discovering his path and growing but not there yet.

 

[KnightDoc]

One argument from a parent on that other website is if you invest the salary differential (1 in case of BSMD) and then invest in the market. so if first year savings is 100K (after taxes), that will be $761,225.50 after 30 years I didn't support that theory otherwise my kid could have been a MS1 this year.

Frankly, that's just a stupid argument. It could also be zero. You can't look at the next 30 years by looking at the last 30, and you can't quantify anything based on what it might be in the future if you don't do it. $60,000 today is $60,000 today. Period. By that logic, a steak costs $500, so you should always eat peanut butter and jelly!

You didn't support that theory because it is stupid, and because your kid is going to do much better going to a much better school than he could have had he gone BS/MD (and probably make a lot more money in the long run, even with his $761,225.50 opportunity cost ). So why mention it here now? To show us how much smarter you are than the other dopes on the other site? We know!!!

 

[KnightDoc]

No offense but why do parents come onto SDN for their kids?

Are you a physician?

I just love the way you two (@EdgeTrimmer and @HopeP) just migrated your BS/MD forum over here, trying to convert existing pre-meds and adcoms. Why try to convince us that students who aren't even applying are mature without gap years? Who cares? They're not even applying!!!!!

 

[HopeP]

trying to convert existing pre-meds and adcoms

kid, stop your QAnon theories, right here.

 

[KnightDoc]

kid, stop your QAnon theories, right here.

QAnon theories??????

 

[HopeP]

One argument from a parent on that other website is if you invest the salary differential (1 in case of BSMD) and then invest in the market. so if first year savings is 100K (after taxes), that will be $761,225.50 after 30 years I didn't support that theory otherwise my kid could have been a MS1 this year.

Believe there was some calculation of a 1 year UG cost savings (whether 7 years BS/MD or 3 years UG w/o gap year regular admission). In a grand schema of medical education and cause behind it, that valuation is immaterial. How many times we heard from Drs over here that when that patient smiles and says thank you, 60 hours a week feels like cruising and that is what matters.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Frankly, that's just a stupid argument. It could also be zero. You can't look at the next 30 years by looking at the last 30, and you can't quantify anything based on what it might be in the future if you don't do it. $60,000 today is $60,000 today. Period. By that logic, a steak costs $500, so you should always eat peanut butter and jelly!

You didn't support that theory because it is stupid, and because your kid is going to do much better going to a much better school than he could have had he gone BS/MD (and probably make a lot more money in the long run, even with his $761,225.50 opportunity cost ). So why mention it here now? To show us how much smarter you are than the other dopes on the other site? We know!!!

I am simply telling you how $600K mentioned by another member is calculated.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

No offense but why do parents come onto SDN for their kids?

Are you a physician?

Some parents like to help their kids achieve their goals and I am also intrigued by the process and like to understand it. My kid has no issue and he likes my input. Rather than hiring a private consultant I help him. Some call this helicopter parenting or lawnmower parenting but I like to call it as edge trimming parenting.

Also, debating with kids like @KnightDoc is more fun than watching TV

I am not a physician but my spouse is (I helped her get residency without gap years with some careful planning long time back). My IMG friends come to me for advise.

 

[KnightDoc]

I am simple telling you how $600K mentioned by another member is calculated.

Yes, and it's very stupid. So everything we buy doesn't cost its nominal price -- it costs what the money invested with perfect hindsight would yield in 30 years. Why not 40 years? And why a market average? Why not just the best performer? And to think -- that candy bar I bought in fifth grade cost me $10,000 if only I bought Amazon stock instead.

 

[KnightDoc]

last I checked, it’s an open forum.
So what If it’s a parent. Or a non physician. Pre-medical students and admissions committees are not the only people who have insight and advice to offer.

On the other hand, they DID kind of hijack the BS/MD forum on College Confidential, driving most of the actual HS students away. They certainly don't have the critical mass to do anything like that here. Still, given that they are not actual participants in the process or the profession, and given the fact that parents in general actually know very little about this, with a very few exceptions (here's looking at you, landscaping man!! ), they really don't contribute a whole lot.

You're absolutely right -- it's an open forum. Maybe it would be just a little better if people who weren't actually students or doctors did not have posting privileges. Of course, that would be impossible to enforce given the anonymous nature of the site, so here we are!! People who have no idea what they are talking about are free to post on behalf of their twenty-something "children," and others are free to criticize.

 

[LizzyM]

What percentage of applicants take gap years purely to get life experiences vs gap years to fix the deficiencies? Also what percentage of doctors regret not taking gap years? Now I hear medical students are taking gap years to strengthen their app for residency. Is that going to be the new trend?

That is very popular at one top school among those who want very competitive residencies. A year off for research is not unusual and it's been that way for about 20 years.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I don’t think it’s fair to lump all of the BS/MD students into a helicopter parent paradigm…
There are lots of these kids who know what they want to do from a younger age and pursue it. I did not attend a BS/MD program but I do know that I have wanted to be a doctor ever since I was about 14 or 15 years old. Medical training in the United States is already much longer than in every other country in the world. If you take two gap years, and you want to practice in a competitive specialty, you will not be practicing until you’re in your mid thirties. That decreases a lot of potential learning power compared with almost any other profession, who earn money starting as early as 22-23 or into the mid and late 20s. Many of my “non-traditional” classmates are struggling with basic anatomy and histology, and test taking right now. Well they really make the best doctors? I don’t know. I hope they do. I really believe that the emphasis on obtaining more and more gap years is a function of the ever-increasing competitiveness of medical school admissions rather than the absolute qualifications of the applicants themselves.

CS kids who graduating from top schools are start making $150K as starting salary at age 22 and one kid I know already made couple of millions by the time he turned 27 thru stock options. Knowing all that my son adopted for medicine and he doesn't want to take gap years to strengthen his app to get into top tier schools hence he planned his path from day one and not too much impacted by Covid. With half million cost and 7-11 years additional time to become doctor to me it's crazy to advocate for gap years.

 

[KnightDoc]

CS kids who graduating from top schools are start making $150K as starting salary at age 22 and one kid I know already made couple of millions by the time he turned 27 thru stock options. Knowing all that my son adopted for medicine and he doesn't want to take gap years to strengthen his app to get into top tier schools hence he planned his path from day one and not too much impacted by Covid. With half million cost and 7-11 years additional time to become doctor to me it's crazy to advocate for gap years.

Chill -- in your kid's case, you are 1,000,000% correct, and that's why around 1/3 are still admitted straight through. But it's important for you to understand that your kid, with a carefully charted course of action from day one, with the grades, test scores and ECs to back it up, is the exception, not the rule.

Most applicants are not your kid, and really do need multiple gap years to catch up to him and compete. P.S. -- this will end up being why your kid won't have a clean sweep across all his applications. As strong as he is after 3 years, he will be competing with a lot of people with slightly lower stats and much better experiences achieved by being a few years older than him, and still being very talented. Lots of schools will choose them over your kid.

There is no reason for your kid to take a gap year he doesn't want to take, but, as you clearly understand, as well as he is destined to do this cycle, he'd do even better with a gap year. For people who care about such things and don't care about the year or two, advocating for gap years is not crazy.

 

[gonnif]

Yes, and it depends! It's definitely a trend, although nationally it's around 2/3 that have at least one gap year, not quite 86%!

It has nothing to do with higher ranked schools -- it's pretty much all schools. The simple fact is that admissions are sooooo competitive, that it is an arms race to see who has the most impressive application -- clinical experience, leadership, non-clinical volunteering, research, great grades, great MCAT, service to others, etc., etc., etc. Some people (around 1/3) can do it the "regular way," so it's not impossible, but it is difficult, and becoming more so every year.

I'm not sure why the number is so low at your school. Maybe it's because the advising office is actively pushing gap years, maybe something else is going on?

If optional, Think of the gap year as costing you $600,000 or more in lost wages.
Does it sway your opinion? Certainly there can be experiences gained, but are they worth this opportunity cost? Many with certain specialties in mind are facing 11years of schools and training. Adding gap years to that timeline delays “life” even more.

Or the gap year can help you significantly in getting into a medical school

 

[deleted804295]

Some parents like to help their kids achieve their goals and I am also intrigued by the process and like to understand it. My kid has no issue and he likes my input. Rather than hiring a private consultant I help him. Some call this helicopter parenting or lawnmower parenting but I like to call it as edge trimming parenting.

Also, debating with kids like @KnightDoc is more fun than watching TV

I am not a physician but my spouse is (I helped her get residency without gap years with some careful planning long time back). My IMG friends come to me for advise.

Um no. You did not help your wife get into residency. She got herself there.

I'd be curious to have her opinion on you saying that and her here.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Um no. You did not help your wife get into residency. She got herself there.

I'd be curious to have her opinion on you saying that and her here.

Everyone needs help sometimes and those who don't acknowledge are arrogant. Even if she comes here and gives a response you will claim that I typed the response. I gave you an honest answer on why I participate here but you don't want to hear! How does it matter if I am a physician or not to participate in SDN?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Chill -- in your kid's case, you are 1,000,000% correct, and that's why around 1/3 are still admitted straight through. But it's important for you to understand that your kid, with a carefully charted course of action from day one, with the grades, test scores and ECs to back it up, is the exception, not the rule.

Most applicants are not your kid, and really do need multiple gap years to catch up to him and compete. P.S. -- this will end up being why your kid won't have a clean sweep across all his applications. As strong as he is after 3 years, he will be competing with a lot of people with slightly lower stats and much better experiences achieved by being a few years older than him, and still being very talented. Lots of schools will choose them over your kid.

There is no reason for your kid to take a gap year he doesn't want to take, but, as you clearly understand, as well as he is destined to do this cycle, he'd do even better with a gap year. For people who care about such things and don't care about the year or two, advocating for gap years is not crazy.

I don't have issue with taking gap years to address the deficiencies or get some work experience or have a break. My only issue is more and more adcoms are encouraging every one to take gap years and valuing them more. I know my kid won't have clean sweep, hence he applied to 20+ schools

 

[KnightDoc]

I don't have issue with taking gap years to address the deficiencies or get some work experience or have a break. My only issue is more and more adcoms are encouraging every one to take gap years and valuing them more. I know my kid won't have cleanup sweep, hence he applied to 20+ schools

With all due respect, they are advising everyone to do it because they like the extra experience and maturity they bring, and because most people actually need them in order to be successful. It's not one size fits all, and it doesn't apply to someone with your kid's profile if he isn't interested and is okay missing out on some top tier opportunities.

You shouldn't have an issue with it at all. It's great advice, even if everyone doesn't have to take it in order to be successful.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

is okay missing out on some top tier opportunities.

I thought tier/ranks don't matter and one should be happy to get a single admission since it's sellers market.

 

[HopeP]

Um no. You did not help your wife get into residency. She got herself there.

I'd be curious to have her opinion on you saying that and her here.

I am not ready for dawg house..

 

[RJ McReady]

I think both edge trimmer and knight doc are basically stating the same thing.
It’s an individual decision, but I do agree that ones app is definitely more competitive by doing 1+ gap year(s).
My only point is that I don’t really believe that it makes you any better a physician .

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

That is very popular at one top school among those who want very competitive residencies. A year off for research is not unusual and it's been that way for about 20 years.

so with gap years for medical school and residency one would we 35 by the time they become a surgeon?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I think both edge trimmer and knight doc are basically stating the same thing.
It’s an individual decision, but I do agree that ones app is definitely more competitive by doing 1+ gap year(s).
My only point is that I don’t really believe that it makes you any better a physician .

Yes, you will become more competitive with gap year since adcoms starting valuing it for whatever reasons, but as you said whether they produce better physician or not needs to be determined. May be that will be a public funded study soon.

 

[OfMiceAndWomen]

CS kids who graduating from top schools are start making $150K as starting salary at age 22 and one kid I know already made couple of millions by the time he turned 27 thru stock options. Knowing all that my son adopted for medicine and he doesn't want to take gap years to strengthen his app to get into top tier schools hence he planned his path from day one and not too much impacted by Covid. With half million cost and 7-11 years additional time to become doctor to me it's crazy to advocate for gap years.

Medicine is perhaps not the right career if one is fretting over net worth like this. I used to feel pretty bad about my own peers earning so much right out of college (particularly because of pressure from my mother ), but I learned I really had to let it go, or else I simply will not be happy for the next 10+ years of my life.

 

[KnightDoc]

I thought tier/ranks don't matter and one should be happy to get a single admission since it's sellers market.

We both know they don't matter until you have choices. Then, apparently, rank and money are ALL that matters.

You know exactly what I mean, and you and your kid went in with your eyes wide open. Just don't disparage the general advice regarding gap years, because it is good, and highly relevant to everyone, even if some don't need it to succeed.

I don't know you and your kid, but feel like I do. If (and I certainly do not wish this on you and your kid), he gets shut out of T5 and ends up at a T20, report back and tell us if he had it to do over again and would have a guaranteed T5 acceptance with a gap year, that he still wouldn't be interested because T20 is good enough. Knowing you the way I feel like I do, I just won't believe it. I think he'll be successful this cycle, and I'm sure you do as well.

To me, it's like you saying debt doesn't matter because your kid won't have any. You say gap years are unnecessary because you don't think he'll need them to achieve his goal. And we both know his particular goal is not merely to get into any school. If he gets into Stanford with no gap year, you're right. If not, and Pitt is really good enough, then you're right again. Otherwise, maybe the gap year wouldn't have been such a bad idea!

 

[KnightDoc]

I think both edge trimmer and knight doc are basically stating the same thing.
It’s an individual decision, but I do agree that ones app is definitely more competitive by doing 1+ gap year(s).
My only point is that I don’t really believe that it makes you any better a physician .

You're right -- 40 years ago they weren't a thing. They are a product of the EC arms race as admissions became increasingly more competitive. Nothing more, nothing less. For GPA repair for underperformers in UG they were always a thing.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Medicine is perhaps not the right career if one is fretting over net worth like this. I used to feel pretty bad about my own peers earning so much right out of college (particularly because of pressure from my mother ), but I learned I really had to let it go, or else I simply will not be happy for the next 10+ years of my life.

I agree and my kid is not going into medicine purely for money. However it's not easy to think about it if you have 200-500K loan and have to slog for 10 additional years to become a doctor. I am speaking in that context.

 

[KnightDoc]

I agree and my kid is not going into medicine purely for money. However it's not easy to think about it if you have 200-500K loan and have to slog for 10 additional years to become a doctor. I am speaking in that context.

But your kid won't have loans, so your response is just a little disingenuous. There is nothing wrong with caring about money, but own it instead of hiding behind nonexistent loans. Are you really suggesting people with significant grants (need based or merit) shouldn't think about money? I didn't think so!

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

We both know they don't matter until you have choices. Then, apparently, rank and money are ALL that matters.

You know exactly what I mean, and you and your kid went in with your eyes wide open. Just don't disparage the general advice regarding gap years, because it is good, and highly relevant to everyone, even if some don't need it to succeed.

I don't know you and your kid, but feel like I do. If (and I certainly do not wish this on you and your kid), he gets shut out of T5 and ends up at a T20, report back and tell us if he had it to do over again and would have a guaranteed T5 acceptance with a gap year, that he still wouldn't be interested because T20 is good enough. Knowing you the way I feel like I do, I just won't believe it. I think he'll be successful this cycle, and I'm sure you do as well.

To me, it's like you saying debt doesn't matter because your kid won't have any. You say gap years are unnecessary because you don't think he'll need them to achieve his goal. And we both know his particular goal is not merely to get into any school. If he gets into Stanford with no gap year, you're right. If not, and Pitt is really good enough, then you're right again. Otherwise, maybe the gap year wouldn't have been such a bad idea!

You know my kid better than I do yeah, my kids goal is T5 but he won't go for gap year to achieve that. I told him he can target T5s for residency if he doesn't get into T5 medical school. There are always opportunities to succeed.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

But your kid won't have loans, so you response is just a little disingenuous. There is nothing wrong with caring about money, but own it instead of hiding behind nonexistent loans.

What?? I am advocating for those who needs to take loans by saying think about those who end up with 200K-500K loans and have to wait till their 30s to start paying them.

 

[KnightDoc]

You know my kid better than I do yeah, my kids goal is T5 but he won't go for gap year to achieve that. I told him he can target T5s for residency if he doesn't get into T5 medical school. There are always opportunities to succeed.

We'll see! I'm feeling pretty good about T10 for him. I'd like to say T5, but that's such a crapshoot for everyone that I can't. Plus, I don't want to jinx him!!

 

[HopeP]

We'll see! I'm feeling pretty good about T10 for him. I'd like to say T5, but that's such a crapshoot for everyone that I can't. Plus, I don't want to jinx him!!

So what is your target T????

 

[KnightDoc]

What?? I am advocating for those who needs to take loans by saying think about those who end up with 200K-500K loans and have to wait till their 30s to start paying them.

??? Then it's unclear what you are saying, because you are conflating "not purely for money" and loans. My point is that money is not a dirty word, and there is nothing wrong with working hard and wanting to be rewarded monetarily, but you should own it.

Also, to all the ORM parents, it is short sighted to worry about one or two years in the very beginning of a long path. I know you took the long view by passing up an accelerated BS/MD. The same logic applies to gap years, if it helps achieve a better school, with better opportunities, both monetarily and otherwise, down the road. YMMV. I know I'm not going to convince the true believers, and I'm really not trying to. Just putting it out there for anyone who might be interested.

 

[KnightDoc]

So what is your target T????

Same as everyone else's. First, something MD. Then, the best I can do, in the most attractive location, hopefully with some merit money.

 

[HopeP]

Same as everyone else's. First, something MD. Then, the best I can do, in the most attractive location, hopefully with some merit money.

that is a politically correct answer, but not transparent enough.

 

[KnightDoc]

that is a politically correct answer, but not transparent enough.

So, what are you really asking? My grades and MCAT? They're fine. My ECs? Not where I want them to be. In the words of our glorious Dear Leader, I'm hoping COVID "will just disappear" and I can get back to my life. Until that happens, I honestly have no idea where I will be competitive, so I have no more transparency to offer.

No BS -- like everyone else, I'm aiming as high as I can go. With meaningful ECs on hold since March with no end in sight, I honestly don't know. But I am walking the walk. I'm not throwing in an application now just to see what happens, settling for whatever I can get, just to maybe save a year.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

??? Thne it's unclear what you are saying, because you are conflating "not purely for money" and loans. My point is that money is not a dirty word, and there is nothing wrong with working hard and wanting to be rewarded monetarily, but you should own it.

Also, to all the ORM parents, it is short sighted to worry about one or two years in the very beginning of a long path. I know you took the long view by passing up an accelerated BS/MD. The same logic applies to gap years, if it helps achieve a better school, with better opportunities, both monetarily and otherwise, down the road. YMMV. I know I'm not going to convince the true believers, and I'm really not trying to. Just putting it out there for anyone who might be interested.

As you stated earlier I am an ORM parent with poor English skills I was trying to say that my kid is not doing medicine for money. He probably would have made good money as CS major since he has equal interest in technology but ultimately decided that he doesn't want to sit in front of computer all day and wants to be a hands on guy.

As per gap years, I believe 4 years UG should be enough to get required experiences for focused kids and one key requirement is less time on SDN

 

[HopeP]

So, what are you really asking? My grades and MCAT? They're fine. My ECs? Not where I want them to be.

Nah.. What is your target, T5/10/20/50/150?

 

[HopeP]

No offense, I see DO adcoms more active here and provides valuable advice. wonder even if T20 adcom participates here, besides @LizzyM ?

 

[KnightDoc]

As you stated earlier I am an ORM parent with poor English skills I was trying to say that my kid is not doing medicine for money. He probably would have made good money as CS major since he has equal interest in technology but ultimately decided that he doesn't want to sit in front of computer all day and wants to be a hands on guy.

As per gap years, I believe 4 years UG should be enough to get required experiences for focused kids and one key requirement is less time on SDN

Your English is WAAAAY better than most!!

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

No offense, I see DO adcoms more active here and provides valuable advice. wonder even if T20 adcom participates here, besides @LizzyM ?

there are over 25 schools that are ranked T20, so who is counting?

 

[KnightDoc]

No offense, I see DO adcoms more active here and provides valuable advice. wonder even if T20 adcom participates here, besides @LizzyM ?

There are more MD than DO. We can't know for sure due to anonymity, but I'd be willing to bet @gyngyn also hails from a very excellent school. Your point is irrelevant, however, because these people are professional doctors affiliated with admissions, and they are all acutely aware of the environment, regardless of where they actually work. I assure you @Goro knows as much about admissions at top tier schools as @LizzyM, so what exactly is your point?

 

[HopeP]

There are more MD than DO. We can't know for sure due to anonymity, but I'd be willing to bet @gyngyn also hails from a very excellent school. Your point is irrelevant, however, because these people are professional doctors affiliated with admissions, and they are all acutely aware of the environment, regardless of where they actually work. I assure you @Goro knows as much about admissions at top tier schools as @LizzyM, so what exactly is your point?

What is your target T5/10/20/50/150?

 

[KnightDoc]

there are over 25 schools that are ranked T20, so who is counting?

That's just @Goro's count. I did really well in counting in first grade, and I have exactly 20 in the T20. I can even show them to you if you want.

 

[KnightDoc]

What is your target T5/10/20/50/150?

Yes.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

That's just @Goro's count. I did really well in counting in first grade, and I have exactly 20 in the T20. I can even show them to you if you want.

Sorry, I am not interested in show and tell.

 

[gyngyn]

If this bickering doesn't stop, I know one thread that is about to close!

 

[KnightDoc]

If this bickering doesn't stop, I know one thread that is about to close!

I didn't start it, but I do think the topic has been beaten to death, and OP has received a diversity of opinion on both sides, so I don't think it would be unreasonable to just close it anyway. OP can started a new thread if there is really any burning question left unanswered.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I didn't start it, but I do think the topic has been beaten to death, and OP has received a diversity of opinion on both sides, so I don't think it would be unreasonable to just close it anyway. OP can started a new thread if there is really any burning question left unanswered.

I see no bickering, just locker room banter