GravelRider

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Slavery was abolished over a hundred years ago. I was not around, you weren't around. There is zero basis for making people today pay/receive something that they were not directly affected by.

The fact that Democrat candidates are openly advocating for reparations shows how little clue they have about how they appear to the general voter.


"Vote for us so we can take away your money and give a handout to a specific voter block."

"Vote for us so we can take other people's money and give it to you."

Good luck.
Once slavery was abolished, blacks were given equal opportunity, right? Is that what you are saying?

I agree, it’s not a great thing for Democrats to be making a focus of their campaign, though. Reforming the prison system would be an excellent way to help black communities without ostracizing working white voters. Everyone is trying to repeat the Obama performance, but it’s just not going to happen.
 

Twiggidy

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The Holocaust was pretty terrible, right? Do we just shrug off the horrors of slavery? Slavery wasn’t just a bunch of people picking cotton for free. There was torture, rape, murders. For someone so concerned about the unborn fetus, you seem to shrug off slavery as “ah, it happens.”
But that's just it right. In Germany, Nazi symbolism was made illegal. In the US, we still have a state with a Confederate symbol on it's flag. We literally have American citizens who on one hand will scream out patriotism and the next week are marching in the street with Nazi flags, a symbol that likely one of their ancestors died fighting against. The problem is this nation's thinking, or lack thereof.
 
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I think you are correct in that, at the present time, it may be a bad idea, given the climate, and this is coming from a black man. Opponents to even the thought of reparations automatically present it as being a check in the mail that all black folks will get and an immediate increase to their tax dollars. There are numerous creatives ways that a form a reparation can be presented, but quite honestly, that's only if people accept that what their ancestors did was a horrible thing and many prospered well off it. Something very simple and easy to start with could be, say, "African Americans can got to state-universities with tuition paid". That's just me spit balling. Of course, it will make the "Well I'm paying my kid's tuition" crowd angry but again, people have to accept a wrong was committed and quite honestly hasn't really been forgiven much or even corrected. I personally wouldn't want a "check in the mail" whereas a level playing field would pay much more dividends. If we have to get into a discussion of whether the playing field is level or not, then this will be a long thread.
Educating someone for free based on the color of their skin, and paying for it by taking away from someone based on the color of their skin, is institutional racism by definition.


My ancestors had absolutely nothing to do with slavery. I'm an immigrant from Europe, where my ancestors were killed by Germans, and their property destroyed.
 
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Once slavery was abolished, blacks were given equal opportunity, right? Is that what you are saying?
The Democrat party platform was pro segregation. They worked tirelessly to impede progress for African Americans. They actively fought the civil rights act.

If anything, I think people who voted for Democrats in the past should be responsible for paying for reparations for post-slavery discrimination against African Americans.
 
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GravelRider

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Educating someone for free based on the color of their skin, and paying for it by taking away from someone based on the color of their skin, is institutional racism by definition.


My ancestors had absolutely nothing to do with slavery. I'm an immigrant from Europe, where my ancestors were killed by Germans, and their property destroyed.
You’ve chosen to come to a country where you get to enjoy the perks of being a citizen here, but also have to share in some of the liabilities that the country may have.

The Democrat party platform was pro segregation. They worked tirelessly to impede progress for African Americans. They actively fought the civil rights act.

If anything, I think people who voted for Democrats in the past should be responsible for paying for reparations for post-slavery discrimination against African Americans.
This makes no sense. You’re viewing the political parties like someone would a sports team. Maybe we should just make the Southern states pay?
 

Twiggidy

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Educating someone for free based on the color of their skin, and paying for it by taking away from someone based on the color of their skin, is institutional racism by definition.


My ancestors had absolutely nothing to do with slavery. I'm an immigrant from Europe, where my ancestors were killed by Germans, and their property destroyed.
It would be much easier and less words for you to just say African Americans aren't owed anything for slavery.
 

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Educating someone for free based on the color of their skin, and paying for it by taking away from someone based on the color of their skin, is institutional racism by definition.


My ancestors had absolutely nothing to do with slavery. I'm an immigrant from Europe, where my ancestors were killed by Germans, and their property destroyed.
This. You want to create a registry of people that had slave-holder ancestors, and calculate the exact proportion of wealth they inherited through 6 generations and tax that - fine, good luck. Keep your hands out of the wallets of all the other Americans including myself.

Racism is racism. Reparations is just a form of reverse racism, just more extreme than “affirmative action” and hiring quotas etc.
 

Twiggidy

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The Democrat party platform was pro segregation. They worked tirelessly to impede progress for African Americans. They actively fought the civil rights act.

If anything, I think people who voted for Democrats in the past should be responsible for paying for reparations for post-slavery discrimination against African Americans.
Oh the good 'ol Diamond and Silk argument. You gotta love when that card is played as if no one who's ever read a history book has heard of a Dixiecrat.
 

Twiggidy

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This. You want to create a registry of people that had slave-holder ancestors, and calculate the exact proportion of wealth they inherited through 6 generations and tax that - fine, good luck. Keep your hands out of the wallets of all the other Americans including myself.

Racism is racism. Reparations is just a form of reverse racism, just more extreme than “affirmative action” and hiring quotas etc.
You don't need a registry. If a black man's birth certificate has any of the top 100 most common African American last names it's quite obvious who were your ancestors. There aren't too many Johnson's in Ghana.
 
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radsisrad

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The Holocaust was pretty terrible, right? Do we just shrug off the horrors of slavery? Slavery wasn’t just a bunch of people picking cotton for free. There was torture, rape, murders. For someone so concerned about the unborn fetus, you seem to shrug off slavery as “ah, it happens.”
Slavery is horrible. We agree. Now, what is it that "reparations" advocates want? How large a check? From whom?
 
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Twiggidy

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Racism is racism. Reparations is just a form of reverse racism, just more extreme than “affirmative action” and hiring quotas etc.
Again. Someone who probably doesn't acknowledge that slavery and Jim Crow has any effect on where African Americans stand today
 
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Twiggidy

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Slavery is horrible. We agree. Now, what is it that "reparations" advocates want? How large a check? From whom?
See.....this is what I'm talking about.

The case for reparations isn't about a check.
 

radsisrad

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See.....this is what I'm talking about.

The case for reparations isn't about a check.
Well, if that's the case, what is the goal of reparations?

And please don't just post a link - I'd like to see you make your own case.
 

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This. You want to create a registry of people that had slave-holder ancestors, and calculate the exact proportion of wealth they inherited through 6 generations and tax that - fine, good luck. Keep your hands out of the wallets of all the other Americans including myself.

Racism is racism. Reparations is just a form of reverse racism, just more extreme than “affirmative action” and hiring quotas etc.
What was more extreme, “affirmative action” or the 1600s-1964 where black people were either slaves or the institutions in our society, including the government, actively prevented blacks from building any generational wealth? We’ll say you can vote and give you a few extra college acceptances and call it even?

So you are in favor of raising the estate tax, I assume?
 

Twiggidy

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Well, if that's the case, what is the goal of reparations?

And please don't just post a link - I'd like to see you make your own case.
read that article. it's also in audio form if you're more an audiobook person
 

doctalaughs

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Again. Someone who probably doesn't acknowledge that slavery and Jim Crow has any effect on where African Americans stand today
Oh I acknowledge it.

Just like the long-lasting effects of slavery in many other nations, or effects of genocide has affected other groups. If you take the worst genocide we can use as an example (the holocaust with 6 million Jews murdered) EVEN in this extreme example Germany only paid modest reparations (average 3-4K/person) directly to survivors that went through it. Not to their unborn children and certainly not to futuregreat, great, great, great grandchildren.

Many ethnic groups went through hell in history. Horrible -but generations later they aren’t owed handouts, especially by other groups that happen to live in the same country.
 

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You don't need a registry. If a black man's birth certificate has any of the top 100 most common African American last names it's quite obvious who were your ancestors. There aren't too many Johnson's in Ghana.
ok what about asians then? They were basically slaves to build railroads, thrown in internment camps and continually marginalized and disrespected in this country. They deserve reparations as well right? Shouldn't matter that they are somehow the highest per capita income group in the country. Democrats are so quiet about asians because it destroys any argument they have of institutional racism. Try looking at the asian community and its no mystery why they are successful in this country: emphasis on education, low divorce rate, low single motherhood rate. If my evil whiteness owes blacks reparations then we should pay all minorities.
 

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What was more extreme, “affirmative action” or the 1600s-1964 where black people were either slaves or the institutions in our society, including the government, actively prevented blacks from building any generational wealth? We’ll say you can vote and give you a few extra college acceptances and call it even?

So you are in favor of raising the estate tax, I assume?
Strawman. Obviously slavery was worse but a small wrong doesn’t correct a large wrong. Both are racist- one just more extreme.

Also, you can’t apply the principles of justice to a whole group even if some of the people in group 1 wronged some of the people in group 2.... case in point penalizing the 1st generation Asian kid for affirmative action, just like you’d advocate raising his parent’s taxes for the sins of slaveholding white southerners 150 years ago.
 
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Oh I acknowledge it.

Just like the long-lasting effects of slavery in many other nations, or effects of genocide has affected other groups. If you take the worst genocide we can use as an example (the holocaust with 6 million Jews murdered) EVEN in this extreme example Germany only paid modest reparations (average 3-4K/person) directly to survivors that went through it. Not to their unborn children and certainly not to futuregreat, great, great, great grandchildren.

Many ethnic groups went through hell in history. Horrible -but generations later they aren’t owed handouts, especially by other groups that happen to live in the same country.
Who is advocating giving blank checks to black people? Can we at the least agree that from the birth of this country to about ~50 years ago (made up a random number here), slavery, Jim Crow, institutional discrimination (eg not giving home loans to blacks people), etc has resulted in black people being placed at an unfair disadvantage that continues to be felt in today’s generation and will continue to propagate forward? If we can acknowledge people of color start behind and face extra hurdles, then we can discuss if we want to and how to fix that.

If we feel black people have no disadvantage today, then there’s nothing left to discuss...
 

Cryc_to_the_point

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Not one living slave exists to be given a reparation check... this idea that we need to go and "right," past wrongs for people that aren't even around anymore is a can of worms that leads to nothing positive for anyone.
 

Twiggidy

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Oh I acknowledge it.

Just like the long-lasting effects of slavery in many other nations, or effects of genocide has affected other groups. If you take the worst genocide we can use as an example (the holocaust with 6 million Jews murdered) EVEN in this extreme example Germany only paid modest reparations (average 3-4K/person) directly to survivors that went through it. Not to their unborn children and certainly not to futuregreat, great, great, great grandchildren.

Many ethnic groups went through hell in history. Horrible -but generations later they aren’t owed handouts, especially by other groups that happen to live in the same country.
Germany has paid a total of nearly 100 billion dollars in reparations to Israel and Holocaust survivors and they're still paying today. Slaves and their descendants got NOTHING.

I love how this notion of "genocide happens everywhere" gets thrown around except that one of the wealthiest countries in the World was built on the backs of slaves and the majority in the country continued(s) to oppress those freed people . You should take an hour and read Coates article, because it's a very smart counter to the "that was in the past" argument.
 

Twiggidy

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ok what about asians then? They were basically slaves to build railroads, thrown in internment camps and continually marginalized and disrespected in this country. They deserve reparations as well right? Shouldn't matter that they are somehow the highest per capita income group in the country. Democrats are so quiet about asians because it destroys any argument they have of institutional racism. Try looking at the asian community and its no mystery why they are successful in this country: emphasis on education, low divorce rate, low single motherhood rate. If my evil whiteness owes blacks reparations then we should pay all minorities.
Civil Liberties Act of 1988 - Wikipedia

they were paid reparations
 

Twiggidy

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Not one living slave exists to be given a reparation check... this idea that we need to go and "right," past wrongs for people that aren't even around anymore is a can of worms that leads to nothing positive for anyone.
Same response. Read Coates' article. It has nothing to do with paying a check.
 

Twiggidy

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This will be my last post on this subject:

This is honestly the reason that it's feasible for Congress just to allow a STUDY on the idea of reparations. That's all that's really ever been asked the fact that a STUDY isn't allowed tells me a lot about the way some (not all) people in this country feel about African Americans.

signing off on this thread
 
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doctalaughs

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Same response. Read Coates' article. It has nothing to do with paying a check.
Same difference if it involves using tax payer money that didn't directly come from inheritances of slave-holder ancestors.

Also you are ignoring what is being said by me and others. Even if I could support any form of reparations, historically when paid for by a country it goes directly to the victims- doesn't jump multiple generations.
 
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radsisrad

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Germany has paid a total of nearly 100 billion dollars in reparations to Israel and Holocaust survivors and they're still paying today. Slaves and their descendants got NOTHING.

I love how this notion of "genocide happens everywhere" gets thrown around except that one of the wealthiest countries in the World was built on the backs of slaves and the majority in the country continued(s) to oppress those freed people . You should take an hour and read Coates article, because it's a very smart counter to the "that was in the past" argument.
Regarding the bolded: no. The agrarian economy of the South did make use slave labor, but this was by no means what made America one of the wealthiest countries in the world. That was a result of industrialization, the infrastructure organized by the great entrepreneurs of the 19th and 20th centuries, and the ingenuity of American inventors such as Edison and Ford.
 

radsisrad

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This will be my last post on this subject:

This is honestly the reason that it's feasible for Congress just to allow a STUDY on the idea of reparations. That's all that's really ever been asked the fact that a STUDY isn't allowed tells me a lot about the way some (not all) people in this country feel about African Americans.

signing off on this thread
Lol. Come on. Does anyone here really want to foot the bill for the inevitably-massive waste of money that would be a government-commissioned study? Raise your hand if you do.

No, forget the study. Let's just hear what the pro-reparationists want. Here's a check - who will pay how much to whom?
 

lakersbaby

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Lol. Come on. Does anyone here really want to foot the bill for the inevitably-massive waste of money that would be a government-commissioned study? Raise your hand if you do.

No, forget the study. Let's just hear what the pro-reparationists want. Here's a check - who will pay how much to whom?
Obama's mother's side owned slaves back in the day in Kentucky (Just like Mitch McConnell's great great grandpa that MSNBC/CNN touted so proudly) Kamala Harris is also a descendent of a slave owner. What a mindfreak!
 
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These are the best of the Democrats in terms of representing the moderate electorate. But, Schultz isn't actually running for President yet and John Delaney is too centrist to garner enough primary votes.

So, despite my dislike of Trump I will be voting for him in 2020. The best of the worst in terms of policies is Donald Trump.

Howard Schultz would be the answer to Donald Trump in 2020 in terms of putting a Billionaire with good sense in the White House.
I don't know where all the nominees stand on individual policies and at this point I'm not going to bother looking it up until we get down to a sane number of candidates. From the one debate I actually got to watch though and minimal research I've done I'd like to hear more from Hickenlooper. He's against Medicare-for-all, has reasonable stances of gun control, implemented environmental plans that are actually feasible and effective (he's a former geologist), has economic ideas that actually work (fiscal conservative), and is against expanding government and focusing on making current programs more efficient.

Plus he's the only democrat with the guts to actually say that socialism won't work and point out the obvious that all of the ridiculous promises being made are just ridiculous promises. Too bad realistic statements don't stand a chance, because he's someone that could actually do incredibly well against Trump with most demographics in the US.
 

Stagg737

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forgiving all student loan debt for teachers because he thinks teachers in particular are cooler than everyone else with student debt, so why not.
Of all the insane democratic nonsense being thrown out at the debates, this is one of the few things I'd actually support. Fixing the educational system (especially at the primary level) starts by getting the right people to teach kids. As it currently stands, most primary care teachers are poorly paid, especially in more poverty stricken districts, and will have pretty significant debt by the time they're actually making a relatively meager paycheck. If we want better people teaching our kids there needs to be some kind of incentive in place to actually get people into the field and I think forgiving debt for working in the public school system is a pretty good way to do that.

Yes, there are many great teachers out there, but there are also many who are dumb as rocks. Unfortunately, the less qualified ones often end up teaching in the places which actually need the best teachers possible to keep the kids on track.

If you can't afford health care you should still be able to get health care regardless of your national origin, that's how it works in all the advanced countries in the 21st century.
Advocating that patients who can't afford health care should not get health care is something that just doesn't sound right coming from a physician.
But again that's a personal opinion.
And who is going to pick up the tab for the tens of millions of people who can't pay? Let's assume we implement a single-payer Medicare-for-all plan which reimburses at current rates. Literally every hospital in the country would shut down. Now if we want to start cutting out entire fields that are financial sinkholes to the system like the ED, psychiatry, oncology, etc, we can create something feasible. However, if we want to provide the level of healthcare quality that most people in the US demand then we'd be completely screwed.

Regardless of what anyone says (even the UN), healthcare in any country is a service, not a right.

I think you are correct in that, at the present time, it may be a bad idea, given the climate, and this is coming from a black man. Opponents to even the thought of reparations automatically present it as being a check in the mail that all black folks will get and an immediate increase to their tax dollars. There are numerous creatives ways that a form a reparation can be presented, but quite honestly, that's only if people accept that what their ancestors did was a horrible thing and many prospered well off it. Something very simple and easy to start with could be, say, "African Americans can got to state-universities with tuition paid". That's just me spit balling. Of course, it will make the "Well I'm paying my kid's tuition" crowd angry but again, people have to accept a wrong was committed and quite honestly hasn't really been forgiven much or even corrected. I personally wouldn't want a "check in the mail" whereas a level playing field would pay much more dividends. If we have to get into a discussion of whether the playing field is level or not, then this will be a long thread.
Saying that we should implement programs to aid people who are in poor socioeconomic situations (which are disproportionately black) and saying that we should help all people of one race because of a specific injustice performed over a century ago are not the same thing. Additionally, holding the populace of an entire nation responsible is problematic. Since reparations would likely come from tax dollars, are you going to increase taxes on everyone and provide benefits only for black people? Tax anyone who isn't black? Will that include first generation immigrants? Only people whose family has lived here for X generations? Only people who descended from slave owners? Only those in a certain tax bracket regardless of their race or affiliation?

The whole situation is a muddled mess and I see no reason why this is being framed as "reparations" as opposed to creating social programs to economically advance the lower economic class (again disproportionately black) other than for political gain.

You’ve chosen to come to a country where you get to enjoy the perks of being a citizen here, but also have to share in some of the liabilities that the country may have.



This makes no sense. You’re viewing the political parties like someone would a sports team. Maybe we should just make the Southern states pay?
It also makes no sense to argue that those who had literally nothing to do with those events should be involved in providing reparations to those affected. Would you have first generation immigrants such as DREAMers helping to pay reparations? How about Native Americans? Chines families who descended from those exploited by building railroads?

The previous post cuts to the heart of the "who pays?" problem. You could argue that it's the US gov, but then you're just arguing that all US citizens should pay.

Living Japanese individuals specifically in internment camps were paid. What about descendants of Chinese immigrants from the early 1800's? They endured many similar forms of discrimination including segregation, discriminatory housing acts, specific taxes for only Chinese individuals, not allowing citizenship until 1943, and slavery (look up "coolie"). Should they receive reparations as well? Why or why not?
 

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I've always thought that the people that deserve reparations the most are those that are too proud to take them, because they work for and earn what they have. These are the farmers in Alabama and Mississippi. Some limousine liberal that went to Harvard certainly wasn't "kept down by the man". Hell, I couldn't go to Harvard!

But, the more painful thing is that the wound of slavery will never heal, because it didn't heal when it could have, because there are no primary former slaves left. Without any original plankholders, it's just a more complex, more opaque situation.
 
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If you can't afford health care you should still be able to get health care regardless of your national origin, that's how it works in all the advanced countries in the 21st century.
Advocating that patients who can't afford health care should not get health care is something that just doesn't sound right coming from a physician.
But again that's a personal opinion.
Plank, there is healthcare and healthcare. Most physicians would probably support the idea of free basic healthcare for anybody, almost as a "human right". Or should I call it humane right?

The problem is that populists and socialists don't know where to stop with spending other people's money. When I see the Medicaid patient, who has liver cirrhosis from having drunk his entire life, get a half-million dollar-liver in my state, it drives me nuts. There should be some accountability, even some "natural selection". The same way we can't all afford 5-star hotels, we shouldn't get 5-star healthcare on the public dime, or the country will go bankrupt. We are printing trillions of dollars already; the next recession may be about the dollar crashing its value.

We are already spending 15-20% of our GDP on healthcare (instead of 5-7% like other countries). We need to fix that first before wasting more money. That means Big Pharma, hospital monopolies, management companies, malpractice system etc. We have a LOT to reform before we can afford free basic healthcare even just for our citizens.
 
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doctalaughs

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I don't know where all the nominees stand on individual policies and at this point I'm not going to bother looking it up until we get down to a sane number of candidates. From the one debate I actually got to watch though and minimal research I've done I'd like to hear more from Hickenlooper. He's against Medicare-for-all, has reasonable stances of gun control, implemented environmental plans that are actually feasible and effective (he's a former geologist), has economic ideas that actually work (fiscal conservative), and is against expanding government and focusing on making current programs more efficient.

Plus he's the only democrat with the guts to actually say that socialism won't work and point out the obvious that all of the ridiculous promises being made are just ridiculous promises. Too bad realistic statements don't stand a chance, because he's someone that could actually do incredibly well against Trump with most demographics in the US.
I would 100% vote for Hickenlooper in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, he won’t get the nomination because of the crazy progressive wing of Democratic Party... some nut-bag AOC type person will run against Trump and I’ll have to vote for Donald the d-bag while holding my nose.... sigh. It’s like the Democratic Party is a blind conductor of a train heading towards a wall at high speeds....
 
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Plank, there is healthcare and healthcare. Most physicians would probably support the idea of free basic healthcare for anybody, almost as a "human right". Or should I call it humane right?

The problem is that populists and socialists don't know where to stop with spending other people's money. When I see the Medicaid patient, who has liver cirrhosis from having drunk his entire life, get a half-million dollar-liver in my state, it drives me nuts. There should be some accountability, even some "natural selection". The same way we can't all afford 5-star hotels, we shouldn't get 5-star healthcare on the public dime, or the country will go bankrupt. We are printing trillions of dollars already; the next recession may be about the dollar crashing its value.

We are already spending 15-20% of our GDP on healthcare (instead of 5-7% like other countries). We need to fix that first before wasting more money. That means Big Pharma, hospital monopolies, management companies, malpractice system etc. We have a LOT to reform before we can afford free basic healthcare even just for our citizens.
As you said, the reason we spend so much money on health care is not illegal immigrants, it is the insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, and the politicians working for them.
What I find mind blowing is hearing someone who is supposedly a physician advocating the denial of health care to those who can't afford it, but at the same time worrying about the well being of unborn babies and telling women they should not get abortions!
Medicine is a noble profession and when you claim that you are a physician you should at least try to live up to the values that word implies.
You are a healer and an idol by definition and you should not allow your prejudice, political bias, or religious affiliation to make you discriminate based on national origin or financial ability.
All patients are just patients and they all deserve your care equally.
 

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Dude. Come on. If you want to know which subjects can't be discussed, look at what gets people kicked off Twitter or fired from their jobs.
Lol talking on sdn about politics and racism is going to lead us to get fired from our jobs? Really?
 
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As you said, the reason we spend so much money on health care is not illegal immigrants, it is the insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, and the politicians working for them.
What I find mind blowing is hearing someone who is supposedly a physician advocating the denial of health care to those who can't afford it, but at the same time worrying about the well being of unborn babies and telling women they should not get abortions!
Medicine is a noble profession and when you claim that you are a physician you should at least try to live up to the values that word implies.
You are a healer and an idol by definition and you should not allow your prejudice, political bias, or religious affiliation to make you discriminate based on national origin or financial ability.
All patients are just patients and they all deserve your care equally.
I'm a doctor. I'm also a taxpaying citizen of the United States. But, I don't bring politics into my medical practice. Just because I'm a doctor and I want everyone to get all the healthcare they need, it doesn't mean I or anyone else should pay for that or be forced to do that.

Likewise, I'm not going to live in a shack and give out free healthcare every day of my life. I don't run a charity, but I do charitable work.


I think you're being hypocritical for accepting any payment for your services. You're obviously burdening your patients with your bills, and it's all so you can buy a new car and put your kids through college. So selfish! And you're a doctor!!
 

GravelRider

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I'm a doctor. I'm also a taxpaying citizen of the United States. But, I don't bring politics into my medical practice. Just because I'm a doctor and I want everyone to get all the healthcare they need, it doesn't mean I or anyone else should pay for that or be forced to do that.

Likewise, I'm not going to live in a shack and give out free healthcare every day of my life. I don't run a charity, but I do charitable work.


I think you're being hypocritical for accepting any payment for your services. You're obviously burdening your patients with your bills, and it's all so you can buy a new car and put your kids through college. So selfish! And you're a doctor!!
Yup, doctors in Canada live in shacks. :rolleyes:

There is nothing wrong with accepting payment for services. There is something wrong with the exorbitant costs of healthcare in this country. We have been given multiple opportunities to police ourselves and figure out a way to make healthcare less expensive. We are failing at that and in return the people in the United States are starting to demand significant change and that change will eventually be a single payer system. This is not about giving away free things, but rather about bringing costs down so people can afford it.

The desire for some form of universal healthcare spans voters of both parties, so like it or not, it’s coming.
 
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Stagg737

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that change will eventually be a single payer system.
Doubtful. Even the democrats who understand healthcare know a single-payer system is unfeasible. We're more likely to end up with a tiered system with Medicare/caid covering the basic services that the ACA tried to mandate with premium insurance available to those willing and able to pay for it. To be clear, I don't have any problems with single-payer systems. I do have a problem with idealistic systems which are unsustainable and prone to collapsing the economy of an entire nation.
 

radsisrad

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Yup, doctors in Canada live in shacks. :rolleyes:
Healthcare in Canada isn't free. It's subsidized by high tax rates (and - even then - is available only at a scarcity level that would be considered unacceptable by the vast majority of Americans). The point is that illegal aliens largely skirt a number of taxes paid by American citizens, yet can show up to the ED and receive tens (or hundreds) of thousands of dollars' worth of state-of-the-art medical care.

I don't fault the people who are fuming at this.

There is nothing wrong with accepting payment for services. There is something wrong with the exorbitant costs of healthcare in this country. We have been given multiple opportunities to police ourselves and figure out a way to make healthcare less expensive. We are failing at that and in return the people in the United States are starting to demand significant change and that change will eventually be a single payer system. This is not about giving away free things, but rather about bringing costs down so people can afford it.

The desire for some form of universal healthcare spans voters of both parties, so like it or not, it’s coming.
More or less agree with all of this.
 

jw3600

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It would be much easier and less words for you to just say African Americans aren't owed anything for slavery.
I mean I didn’t know this was radical. But present day Africa Americans? No...?
I just don’t think that’s how the world works. Groups of people have been getting ****ed for centuries in all parts of the world. I’d rather focus on future improvements than trying to play an incredibly complicated game of how to “fairly” even out the past.
And I’m an anti trump pro choice relatively left leaning dude.
 

bronx43

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Anyone who thinks the "cost" of healthcare in this country is simply going to be drastically reduced overnight and everything will be fine and dandy is delusional. The problem is that such a large percentage of the US economy is tied up in the health care industry that any top down government action to rapidly reduce it is going to result in tsunami waves throughout the rest of the economy. The sheer number of hospital administrators (10 for every 1 physician), insurance company employees (2+ mil), non-physician clinical staff (3 mil nurses), ancillary staff, pharmaceutical/device employees makes it so that you would essentially displace a significant portion of the labor force if you cut down the overall cost and resource allotment into health care. In fact, health care industry is the largest employer in the US.

Physician salaries make up barely 10% of the overall cost. Outrageous hospital or insurance CEO salaries make up even less. The vast majority of the money is going into the individuals that make up the corporate organisms that comprise the health care ecosystem.

And there isn't going to be an overnight return of global manufacturing back onto US soil. There aren't new industries popping up fast enough to absorb millions of jobs if health care were to be chopped down to appropriate size. Any meaningful reduction in cost is going to come from one of two things: complete collapse of the current socioeconomic system, or slow generational shift to a new economy.

I would be willing to bet that even if the Democrats won in 2020, there will be no significant changes to the status quo.
 
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I'm a doctor. I'm also a taxpaying citizen of the United States. But, I don't bring politics into my medical practice. Just because I'm a doctor and I want everyone to get all the healthcare they need, it doesn't mean I or anyone else should pay for that or be forced to do that.

Likewise, I'm not going to live in a shack and give out free healthcare every day of my life. I don't run a charity, but I do charitable work.


I think you're being hypocritical for accepting any payment for your services. You're obviously burdening your patients with your bills, and it's all so you can buy a new car and put your kids through college. So selfish! And you're a doctor!!
It's hard for me to respond to this logic, I apologize!
 
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chocomorsel

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Gee, that might explain why "all the advanced countries" are running into major fiscal crises.



They should get healthcare - in their own countries. Nobody forced them to come here illegally.
Let's see. How about being forced into gangs as teenagers? How about being raped repeatedly as a woman? Or killed by the gang wars in crossfire? Or being killed because you refused to pay the gangs for protection as you were trying to run your own business in order to feed your family? How about literally starving to death or surviving on less than one meal a day because your fearless leader president only cares about himself and his corner of people instead of the masses? How about having your loved ones killed by the cartels? Either because they worked for the cartels and killed by rival cartels, or they refused to work for the cartels?

Is that "forced" enough for you? Do some of you ever really think of how fortunate you are by being born in a free, first class world? By chance alone? And ever have any sympathy or empathy for the unlucky souls who were unfortunate enough to be born in countries where it's literally survival of the fittest/most corrupt/most aggressive/most wealthy/most evil/most conniving?

Let me tell you something. Your birth in the USA, was a fluke. Just like Jose Rivera's birth in El Salvador instead of El Paso was a fluke. Have some friggin' empathy instead of being so damn narcissistic and realize that these people are coming here simply to survive. And when they come here, these people aren't necessarily sitting on their asses and collecting welfare. They are out in the damn fields picking fruit and vegetables to for you to eat, and mowing your damn lawns, and cleaning your damn pools and stocking your groceries, taking care of your kids, while there are plenty of U.S citizens sitting on their lazy drugged up asses collecting welfare. Plenty of these people pay into a system that they will hardly ever be able to access.

Really?
 

chocomorsel

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Well, if that's the case, what is the goal of reparations?

And please don't just post a link - I'd like to see you make your own case.
How about access to better housing? Equal education? Equal access to employment? Less discrimination? Less institutionalization into the jail system? Equal punishment?
How about we start with that?
I have always said equal education in this country would really go a long way to making things more equal down the line.
Equal education, and better housing?

And EVERYBODY gets to pay their equal share of taxes. Including companies like Amazon. EVERY F UCKING BODY AND COMPANY. I bet if you taxed the top 0.1% as the rest of the 99.9% are taxed, you could take care of reparations.