if i had any feeling left in my chest/extremities i would type a longer response
Best to save your strength.
would a socialized healthcare system affect dentistry?
- Thread starter dc-10
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Best to save your strength.
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I wanted to clear up the misconception (mainly a technicality) about welfare and food stamps.
They are not one in the same. I get money for food, but am not on welfare. Welfare is basically a full time job anyway. If you are on welfare you get money for rent, clothes, gas, etc. You have to do a certain amount of service per month (like volunteer boys and girls club) and you do have to have a job and work a little (but heaven forbid you schedule MORE hours and make a decent living).
Food stamps is a seperate office, filling out seperate paper work. You CAN own a car and get food stamps (just a 10k corolla is I guess deemed too much...) my cars (one is broken) are combined worth less than 2k. Food stamps is government aid though and should be set up for people trying to better their current situation (like many medical and dental students as well as other professional students) and give back to society in the form of being in the 45% tax bracket income level
Because I know I will pay back into this program many times over I do not feel bad taking advantage of it.
i know a self-employed dentist who did not make any money when starting up his office. He got the state medical insurance (for low income level) for his family.
Sad to see that their own greed is the main reason why most people don't want universal health care. I guess Europeans are less greedy than us, thats why it works over there. A person's health should be their right. Just like everyone has the right to a public attorney.
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Greed? I guess its a person's right as well to stay at home, produce illegitimate children, claim that they cant get a job, and let the hard working americans pay for their health care(among other things). Its not about greed, its about abuse of the system.
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I just don't see how the person who had the same opportunities as someone else and because of their own laziness didn't succeed in life should be entitled to free healthcare after I have worked so hard to learn how to provide it for them.
Don't get me wrong, I do hope to be able to help people in some way or another in the future, but when I help them I will in no way think that they are entitled to it because they chose to drop out of school (or similar) and I didn't.
I don't think anyone wanting to be rewarded for hard work is greed. A job of excellent quality is done, it should be matched with what it is worth.
The everyone gets healthcare mantality matches the healthcare I experianced first hand during a two week stay in an Amsterdam hospital. No one cared, low quality care, incompetant doctors and nurses. You should have seen the majority of peoples teeth. They were all entitled to socialized healthcare, but it was like everyone over 45 had major periodontal disease.
Law/Court is another thing altogether. There is a reason a public defender hired by the state does a poor job. He gets paid whether or not he gets his client off. Great system. If OJ didn't have any money he would be sitting in jail right now. Do you know how many similar cases went through trial and conviction during the OJ trial? (ie. Man murdering his wife and fleeing) more than a dozen. Guess how many are in jail today. All of them. Public defender or working hard and hiring a real lawyer who CARES...you decide.
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It probably wasn't worth even entertaining that post. I just cant understand(and it drives me crazy thinking about it), how anyone can expect, or feel the need to provide free, socialized health care. I guess we might as well entitle everone to a gallon of milk, loaf of bread, and pound of beef chuck a week. Oh, and while we are at it, why not require every american male to serve 2 years in the US armed forces before the age of 21. I am tired of being taxed at a higher rate. I would have no problem with a flat tax. Why must the people who work hard, put themselves in major debt, and continue to educate themselves to make a professional living pay for their higher salaries. Everyone has the right to learn, study, take out government loans for education that often equates better income and better health care.
Bottom line, quit making excuses and legislation for the LAZY and IRRESPONSIBLE.
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Doesn't anyone else see the insanity of this statement???
So everyone just has this magical "right" to good health??? Well, you might want to go tell that to the millions of Americans (and other citizens) who have worked hard all their life, paid for their healthcare, and still got sick and died. What about those people's rights??? Shouldn't Hilary fix all those people who are insured, but still sick or dead. Since health is their "right"?
Health is not a "Right". Sorry.
Don't get me wrong. There is definitely something wrong with wellfare these days. There are loopholes and people cheat the system. I think there needs to be reform to prevent those people from cheating. With that being said, how are kids born into poor families (which they have no fault being born into) supposed to get out of their predicament if they can't even maintain good health? The NO UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE model most of you are for will only create a greater gap between rich and poor. What if instead of universal healthcare, the governments mandates that all employers provide full dental benefits. Is that better?
And Greed = excessive desire to possess or acquire more than what one needs. So our greed is what keeps us from desiring universal health care.
And Greed = excessive desire to possess or acquire more than what one needs. So our greed is what keeps us from desiring universal health care.
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Kids born into poor families have Medicaid available to their families.
Your public attorney analogy doesn't work for health care. Everyone has the right to a public defender, but anyone who wants to can spend their own money and hire someone they feel will do a better job for a better outcome. It can be easy to give everyone the right to vaccinations and annual checkups and medical advice that smoking is horrible for your health, but what happens when you don't go for your annual free checkups and ignore the easy-to-follow medical advice and now need a lung transplant? Does everyone now have a right to a new lung as well?
New lungs cost a lot more and are in much fewer supply than crappy public attorneys. Where are you going to draw the line?
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i am an american and i am for liberty, equality and fraternity.
viva la america !!!! yah !!!
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Thanks for the definition of greed from google, like I didn't know what it was. Dental debt is anywhere from 150K to 350K. Now while I am in payback mode AND trying to start a dental practice and hve kids of my own to worry about, do I want to be forced to provide dentistry to the lazy guy who walks into my office expecting free work? What do i do when I default on my 1500 dollar a month repayment of student loans? I am ALL for helping that guy if he truly is in need. And doesn't expect it from me. No kid (like in MD? DC?) should have to die because he couldnt find the right health care, but if that family came into my office with a chip on their shoulder demanding my 'greedy' hands to fix some teeth, I would send them away.
That is not greed. Greed is if I was to send away the humble begger who is working hard to change his situation (ie. I didn't drive past him this morning while he was panhandling - ie he is in school, also working hard, or his business hasn't quite gotten off the ground, etc.) because I needed to pay off my new pool, or boat, or tv, etc.
Kids born into poor families usually have medicaid. Bad argument. hey can get out of their predicament by working. It is called sweat equity. You get in what you put out. My family was poor growing up. Even when my dad started making money i rarely saw a dime unless I worked for it. I can even call my dad today and ask him for money. Guess what, he gives me an interest rate and payment plan options. Money or not, you dig and climb out of your own holes. Dont EXPECT anyone else to do it for you.
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Europeans are less greedy than us? Europeans want to be us. It doesn't work over there. Socializing medicine/dentistry/ anything just removes the quality factor. What would be a doctors reason to excel if he was just another name on a list. The reason that managed care does not work is because the providers(Dental only. Medicine is already screwed) is that there is no incentive to excel. It's not greed, It boils down to how much quality work can you put out in a certain time. I personally believe that as a GP I can treat 10-14 patients in an 8 hour day. Before anyone says they can treat alot more, I spent 3 years in the military seeing probably 25- 50 patients a day. I do more comprehensive care now and better quality.
Managed care/socialized care is compromised care.
"A person's health should be their right". Who are you kidding. How many Public defenders went to law school thinking"I want to be a public defender".
If you got sued would you look for a public defender, or the guy who charges more but is better. Having the "Right" to a public defender has nothing to do with healthcare. If you want the quality of healthcare to go down Than just give control to the government.
The model of fee for service dentistry in america is probably one of the last standing free markets in healthcare.
Let's not F--K it up.
I agree with most of what you say. I dont like being expected to do things either and I would not want to do free work to someone who comes into my office with a chip on their shoulders. Here is the thing though, although you came from a poor family, it sounds like you had parents who were there for you. Many of these kids, specifically those who grow up in the ghetto, dont have parents there for them. In most cases the parents abandom them, and the mother ends up having to work 12 hour shifts to make ends meet. These kids dont have anyone to raise them, live on the streets and have little instructions. Had they grown up in a different environment their view on life and desire to succeed and do well would be like yours or mine.
please provide statistics that says that the quality is worse in europe than here.
Also if you are worrieda bout quality of work, even now there is plenty of ****ty work done by too many greedy dentists who look at a patient with dollar signs in mind. There will be bad dentistry done in any system we employ. What we need is to aquire ethical individuals into the proffession to keep that from happening.
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Finding ethical future members of dentistry is a totally different issue from having healthcare be a "right."
Below is an article about getting dental care in Britain:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/help-and-advice/advice-banks/article.html?in_advicepage_id=122&in_article_id=395426&in_page_id=90
The first sentence (paraphrased) says it all. "Are you struggling because your free government dentist is too overbooked to see you? Then open your wallet and pay out of pocket to get some better dental care." The rest of the article describes benefits from the various insurance plans British people can pay out of pocket for, and it sounds really similar to what we have here.
Here is another link:
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/2765
Again, the first sentence uses the word "shambolic" to describe the British NHS dental care. Some highlights include "Britain's NHS dentistry has been in turmoil since the Government introduced new, target-driven contracts for dentists last April. Within months, almost 2,000 dentists had quit the NHS, with official figures revealing that the number offering health service treatment had fallen below 20,000. This was despite a Government initiative to hire more than 1,000 dentists from countries such as Poland to plug the NHS gaps..... Liberal Democrat health spokes*man Norman Lamb said: "The results are in stark contrast to the bland claims by the Government that their reforms, particularly with the new contracts, would massively increase access to dentistry. The truth is that hasn't happened.""
I periodically come across news articles talking about how bad it is in Britain to get timely treatment for those depending only on the NHS dentists to take care of any dental needs - from extractions to braces.
Sounds to me like the system is seriously broken in Britain.
Okay, so there are a lot of opinions and assumptions out there about socialized medicine, but these are some of my thoughts.
First, having been born in England, living there until almost 8 years old and having a tonsilectomy there, I can't say that I found the system all that bad, based on my limited experience. My parents, even though their income was low, knew that the basics were taken care of and could get on with earning a living and taking care of their family.
A recent statistic states that in 1981, 80% of the people retiring in this country did so with a pension. It is predicted that only 30% of new retirees will have pensions. I think it also follows that many of the retirees in 1981 also had health care in their retirement package, I assume most retirees today will not.
The point is, unlike in the 60's, 70's and 80's where businesses, even small businesses, were able to offer health insurance for it's able-bodied employees, many can no longer afford to do so. Individual insurance is almost impossible for most to afford. This trend apprears to be continuing in one form or another. More businesses continue to drop health care as a benefit or at the very least are docking more out of their employee's salary to cover the cost, therefore reducing the employee's take home pay. In an economy where everything is costing more, the middle american's standard of living is rapidly being squeezed.
I see medicaid being very restrictive. It almost forces families to be non-productive. Should they earn more, they loose this benefit. What we need now is a productive society. This issue is not about helping lazy people, it is about all of us, at least the majority of us. It is very disheartening to read stories about americans who have worked their whole life, own nothing but their home, become disabled, can't work and their only asset, their home, they loose because of medical expenses. How demoralizing is that? This wolf is knocking at almost eveyone's door.
I think we do have a very big obligation to all children. Those that feel abandoned and neglected by the system are at risk of writing off their own future. Not eveyone is derelict. There are many middle class americans without insurance that stand to pauper themselves, loose everything they own, because of the lethal combination of a lost job and poor health. National health care offers some protection to americans that have worked for something, everything they own and believe in, and know that in the event of a health crisis, they won't loose it all. That's protection maybe you don't need, but maybe your parents, your children or even your grandchildren will.
First, having been born in England, living there until almost 8 years old and having a tonsilectomy there, I can't say that I found the system all that bad, based on my limited experience. My parents, even though their income was low, knew that the basics were taken care of and could get on with earning a living and taking care of their family.
A recent statistic states that in 1981, 80% of the people retiring in this country did so with a pension. It is predicted that only 30% of new retirees will have pensions. I think it also follows that many of the retirees in 1981 also had health care in their retirement package, I assume most retirees today will not.
The point is, unlike in the 60's, 70's and 80's where businesses, even small businesses, were able to offer health insurance for it's able-bodied employees, many can no longer afford to do so. Individual insurance is almost impossible for most to afford. This trend apprears to be continuing in one form or another. More businesses continue to drop health care as a benefit or at the very least are docking more out of their employee's salary to cover the cost, therefore reducing the employee's take home pay. In an economy where everything is costing more, the middle american's standard of living is rapidly being squeezed.
I see medicaid being very restrictive. It almost forces families to be non-productive. Should they earn more, they loose this benefit. What we need now is a productive society. This issue is not about helping lazy people, it is about all of us, at least the majority of us. It is very disheartening to read stories about americans who have worked their whole life, own nothing but their home, become disabled, can't work and their only asset, their home, they loose because of medical expenses. How demoralizing is that? This wolf is knocking at almost eveyone's door.
I think we do have a very big obligation to all children. Those that feel abandoned and neglected by the system are at risk of writing off their own future. Not eveyone is derelict. There are many middle class americans without insurance that stand to pauper themselves, loose everything they own, because of the lethal combination of a lost job and poor health. National health care offers some protection to americans that have worked for something, everything they own and believe in, and know that in the event of a health crisis, they won't loose it all. That's protection maybe you don't need, but maybe your parents, your children or even your grandchildren will.
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I agree that there will be bad dentistry in every system. But the time it takes to do quality dentistry is not possible when the dentist is running room to room doing $45 amalgams. I see plenty of Sh---y work come into my office from other dental offices. And believe me when I tell you the most S--t comes from HMO offices.
Also I don't mean the quality of the dental work itself is worse in europe, I mean the quality of the system. Forced socialized dentistry will decrease the overall quality. Plus when you talk of greed, You have to remember, if socialized dentistry were to be forced on us it doesn't just affect the "greedy" dentist it also affects hygenists, assistants, office staff.
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So, sick children are an argument for universal healthcare. I thought we already had medicaid?
I didn't make myself clear. I am not for a universal health care like Britain. It obviously has its problems. I am more in favor of a French like health care system where it incorporates both private and public healthcare sectors. Either end of the spectrum Complete universal health care or completely private health care has its flaws. I am in favor of something more in the middle.
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I agree the kid who has no parents is really in poop creek without a paddle. However if they really cared they could get out of there. There are plenty of people who got out of the ghettho because they cared enough. Even if they didn't have a parent or two.
I realize not everyone is similar in regards to work ethic or common sense or even the know how of getting into a local community college and yes quite easily getting government aid, esp if they are from the slums. (most of this money they get is FREE and they never have to pay it back...)
However peopl do fall on bad times. I am all for helping out, but who doesn't fall on bad times? Where there is a will there is a way.
And please stop changing your stance to make your argument right, I am getting confused just playing!- Joined
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This is what I love about liberals. They never bother with the details. This is the way we should do it, without any thought as to how it's going to work, in the short or long term.
If you took all the people on Medicaid here and moved them to France, its entire system would collapse in about four hours...
The only way to get people in this country to stop sucking off the government is to cut them off. No more "Well, since you're the product of two irresponsible parents, then it's OK that you make absolutely no contribution to society. We'll take care of you while you continue to be worthless. We definitely shouldn't expect you to overcome your obstacles. That would just be mean." At the very least, we could give Medicaid coverage based on BMI. Higher BMI, less food stamps. You don't need any more food. Higher BMI, less medical care. You got diabetes and didn't do what you could to control it -- didn't diet, exercise, check your sugar? Too bad for you when we withhold dialysis. You got lung cancer from smoking? Here's a shovel, a pillow, and a blanket. Go dig your hole and lay in it. People that abuse their bodies need to be held accountable for it. If you are going to pay for your own medical care, by all means, treat your body in any way that you want. But don't expect me to jump on the bus to pay for those who don't care enough about their own body to make any healthy changes for themselves. The huge majority of medical problems in this country are preventable with a healthy lifestyle -- diet, exercise, and responsibility for your body.
I'd be a lot more open to paying higher taxes for others to have health care if they were required to be a healthy weight, non-smokers, non-drug abusers, etc. We need to stop coddling people and making it OK to be so unhealthy.
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Amen to that...
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Huge difference between that issue and the one being discussed. Mainly, because liberals think that the answer is simple -- leave Iraq. Don't want to get into a discussion about why the Iraq situation isn't solved that easily...or start a second topic in this thread...
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The best solution would have never been to get involved at all, but I digress. Back to the other ridiculously bipartisan issue at hand
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YEA YOU GO GET THEM LAZIES!!!!
Anyone who has ever experienced socialized health care and is becoming a dentist should take up their right to bear arms, march to capitol hill and prevent any such act.
Socialized health care blows......not unless you like waiting in the ER for hours when you are bleeding to death, while the stupid lady with a loose tooth gets checked because she has no where else to go. Or booking a doctor a year in advance just to get an open time. Ohh how it sucks... patient and doctor
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