stoichiometrist

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Well, what do they call the group of unmotivated naive slackers AFTER millenials?
Generation Z, after Generation Y (millennials).
 

Sine Cura

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The economic "growth" of the post-WWII period until 1973 can never be replicated so the above meme is fundamentally accurate in regard to the complete ignorance and arrogance of the boomer generation as a whole
 
Apr 18, 2018
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Well, what do they call the group of unmotivated naive slackers AFTER millenials?
Oopps, sorry guys...I forgot "entitled" in that description.... If your parents had it, surely that entitles you to the same (or better!) just by birthright. I was always taught life had no guarantees.....
 
Aug 8, 2017
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To answer the Original Poster's question about why we are not using our power "better" as pharmacists, not as forum users and posters:

1. Many of the pharmacists that are helping students are still pursuing their residency training and not helping their non-residency-trained colleagues. Colleagues refers to pharmacy school graduates who do not have a residency or a fellowship. I encountered this many times among my own peers and even some faculty. The rally cry was: "Where are my PGY2s at?," not "How can we help everyone else that is not residency trained get to our level?" or "How can we provide quality patient care together?" Residency-trained pharmacists are not only refusing to get everyone else up to speed, but they are asking the wrong questions. The wording was changed to: "PGY2s. Where you at?" a few weeks later; the rally cry conveyed the same message as before but with different wording.

2. Pharmacy is in its own silos, which are traditionally called cliques (like high school, only on a professional level): academia, managed care, research, PGY1 and PGY2, retail, independent, clinical, staff, industry fellows, business owners, and the list goes on. Due to this lack of collaboration and lack of buy-in to specific causes, it is very difficult for pharmacists of all specialties to come together for legislative efforts. Such meetings only occur on Legislative Days and other political gatherings. The motivations among pharmacists are inconsistent; like politics, everyone has their own agenda. It's hard to get everyone on the same page.

3. Once students graduate from pharmacy school and are accepted into a residency, the emotional restraints are removed. Many of them have an elitist attitude and can refuse to train their colleagues under a vague concept of "professionalism." Such continual rejection and neglect makes the rest of us registered pharmacists not want to "help" much less generate our "why" for being pharmacists. I spoke with a variety of pharmacy directors as well as those I worked with. The consensus was one fact: residency alone is not experience, but training under a licensed pharmacist. The resident still has not been a pharmacist yet because their interventions are observed by a preceptor. To the best of my knowledge, residency is like PharmD rotations all over again, only with more patients. The stakes are higher than as a student, you are paid very little compared to practicing pharmacists, and you must have your license in that state (pass the NAPLEX, MPJE, and meet other requirements to stay licensed which includes some CE credits).

4. Student loans are much higher than before, forcing us to accept jobs we cannot use our PharmD for or jobs that pay less than what we are worth. We need to take care of ourselves before we take care of others. That is how society views progress and how the outside world views mental health. The pharmacist view conflicts with this, saying we must serve no matter what even if it is for no pay. Financial and personal issues lead to burnout and eventually apathy. Florida is the only state, according to an ABC iTeam investigation, that enforces the student loan law. If you are in default of your student loans, you cannot practice. Solution: see if the Board of Pharmacy will change your jurisdiction (if possible). You may have to take the NAPLEX again and pay the associated fees.

Source: Florida Board of Health suspends health care licenses over student loan defaults January 19, 2019.

Some states, as you read the article, repealed the laws already. Florida is not one of them.

5. Each person and pharmacist has their own cause to support. Importance of those causes is relative to whatever the agenda is, not what needs to be done.

6. When we bring up these issues involving patient care, the first thing the Boards of Pharmacy and other pharmacists review is our own personal and professional profile, not the issue we discuss. This goes for pharmacists in practice and those that are elitist. In such scenarios, judgment is easy to pass but difficult to restrain.

7. We are not using our power because no one hears us. Lobbyists from the American Medical Association (AMA) have much more power than pharmacists, especially in FL. The current Florida Society of Health Systems Pharmacists (FSHP) chapter has trouble with this.

8. Pharmacists choose alternative careers once their loans are paid off, regardless of the training they receive. I spoke about this information in previous posts (PharmD to PA, PharmD to physician, and Pharmacist to Dentist). The thought is this: they paid their dues: they are done (or they lost enjoyment in the field for whatever the reason). However, removing themselves from the field is reframed as follows: "I am grateful to be starting a new journey..."

9. Quantitative objectives are hardly considered in pharmacy as a measure of success in anything other than educational and job placement outcomes (ACPE). Furthermore, pharmacy cannot agree on what the appropriate system of quality measures is, so we default to the measure our employer has for us. This is what we refer to as the "metrics."

10. Lack of measures of certainty by schools, national pharmacy professional organizations, and increased morale boosting for only residency-trained pharmacists and not for pharmacists that have neither a fellowship nor a residency. Residency-trained pharmacists are the only ones that can provide quality patient care and do not want to train the rest of us (unless of course we are students). Selfish behavior, but it is true.

If you view all of these factors, it is not surprising how easy pessimism becomes or how slow pharmacy progress is.

To sum it up: pharmacy as a profession has poor leadership compared with other health professions.
Amen!
 

Rx1992

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Let me tell you about my job hunting experience last year. I have a couple of years of retail experience under my belt and was attempting to relocate. I sent over 50 applications all over western WA and OR and only heard back from two. I talked to one of the DMs of my company in OR and he said they haven't hired a single new pharmacist in the Portland area in the past six years. I haven't applied to CA, but talked to my friend there and he said his district is now fully staffed. There zero pharmacist openings, they just let go a bunch of interns and have no plans of hiring any new interns this year which is unprecedented. It may not be as saturated but it's still pretty bad from my experience.

I'd be cautious about listening to that Alex Barker kid. He makes money off of his blog and acts as some sort of motivational speaker. I'm not even sure he practices pharmacy anymore, if you read his about section he mentions being miserable as a pharmarcist. Steer away from those biased blogs imo and read more objective articles like these: Trends in the Pharmacist Workforce. It sounds like your education will be fully paid for and you are willing to move to middle of nowhere Alaska which may make pharmacy worth it for you. But for a lot of your classmates, this will not be the case. I think if I were in your shoes I would pick dentistry - higher salaries, equal or less education required, faster job growth according to BLS, and dental schools' ridiculously high tuition will be taken care in your case.
I would not pick Dentistry, Corporate dentistry is taking over. especially for General dentistry. hence lower salaries then what you would make private practice. it would still take 15 years to pay loans for Dental school for being a general dentist. you now have to still specialize to stay competitive in the field. Dental tuition is crazy high like 70k a year.
 
Sep 22, 2018
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I would not pick Dentistry, Corporate dentistry is taking over. especially for General dentistry. hence lower salaries then what you would make private practice. it would still take 15 years to pay loans for Dental school for being a general dentist. you now have to still specialize to stay competitive in the field. Dental tuition is crazy high like 70k a year.
I was replying to megj whose tuition will be paid for by her GI bill
 
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Ladm8

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Apr 30, 2017
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I would not pick Dentistry, Corporate dentistry is taking over. especially for General dentistry. hence lower salaries then what you would make private practice. it would still take 15 years to pay loans for Dental school for being a general dentist. you now have to still specialize to stay competitive in the field. Dental tuition is crazy high like 70k a year.
Only 16% of new dental graduates are working for Corporate owned practices. It is not as a big as of a problem as it's made out to be, they have been around for decades. The market will always accommodate both (until dental tuitions become 500k+)
 

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TanMan

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I would not pick Dentistry, Corporate dentistry is taking over. especially for General dentistry. hence lower salaries then what you would make private practice. it would still take 15 years to pay loans for Dental school for being a general dentist. you now have to still specialize to stay competitive in the field. Dental tuition is crazy high like 70k a year.
Dentistry has a high earning potential, despite the fear and uncertainty that people have about corporate dentistry. Even in corporate, you can make a lot of money if you're willing to produce. 70k is insignificant for the potential income that you can make as a dentist. I used earnings from corporate to start my own office and it's a good way to get thrown into the fire and learn real world dentistry. Even at 100k/year tuition, it only takes a year or two to pay that all off with your own office. 120k/year are for those that have to live in a saturated metro area with no upward mobility in income or job title. If you go to a suburb/rural area that's not saturated, you can easily make 250-400k/year, if you're willing to work for it.

Specializing is not a guarantee either. Many specialists have to float around various multispecialty offices if they wish to stay in a major metro area. If you want to stay in a major city, specialize, but that's a lot more school you would have to do. In a 3 year residency, a GP would have a 3 year headstart.
 
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Rx1992

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Dentistry has a high earning potential, despite the fear and uncertainty that people have about corporate dentistry. Even in corporate, you can make a lot of money if you're willing to produce. 70k is insignificant for the potential income that you can make as a dentist. I used earnings from corporate to start my own office and it's a good way to get thrown into the fire and learn real world dentistry. Even at 100k/year tuition, it only takes a year or two to pay that all off with your own office. 120k/year are for those that have to live in a saturated metro area with no upward mobility in income or job title. If you go to a suburb/rural area that's not saturated, you can easily make 250-400k/year, if you're willing to work for it.

Specializing is not a guarantee either. Many specialists have to float around various multispecialty offices if they wish to stay in a major metro area. If you want to stay in a major city, specialize, but that's a lot more school you would have to do. In a 3 year residency, a GP would have a 3 year headstart.
Okay, I can take your word on it. Since you have practiced in the field. The good thing about Dentistry it has not gotten saturated due to increasing academic rigor just like Medicine.
 
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Yeah, that's DEFINITELY not the case with pharmacy. They've dumbed it down and lowered the admission requirements so that anyone with the lots of cash and a death wish can get a pharmD. That's one of the reasons the NABPLEX rates have been falling- NABPLEX hasn't been dumbing down as quickly as academia so that disparity provides a minor inconvenience to some that have to take the boards 2 or 3 times before getting licensed. But those with TRUE PASSION will make it eventually into the veritable train wreck that the profession has become. But fear not- your soon to be corporate masters are depending upon that passion to provide them with the next generation of badly treated, poorly compensated retail slaves....
 
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TanMan

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Okay, I can take your word on it. Since you have practiced in the field. The good thing about Dentistry it has not gotten saturated due to increasing academic rigor just like Medicine.
There's regional saturations and regional demand. If you want to stay in NYC/LA or any other major metro area, it's hard to get a high paying job/high producing office as supply outstrips demand. Thankfully, we still have the suburbs and rural territories.
 
May 31, 2019
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My question is: Would you take out a $200,000 personal loan for a sports car without test driving it first?
That's exactly what's happening with pharmacy. All these pre-pharms believe that a PharmD is just as glamorous as a fancy sports car. They never tested out the profession. They qualify for these loans so easily.
Here's a fact to every single student who will graduate from pharmacy school. You'll automatically be $200,000 poorer. You're in the gutter. I graduated many years ago and I'm still trying to pay off my student loans. I had no debt before entering pharmacy school. I live as if I make less than a school teacher. I have holes in my clothes. I haven't been to a shopping mall in years. If you're still passionate to go into this profession to help people, be willing to do it for next to nothing.
Back when I was in college, the term "pre-pharm" never existed. In pharmacy, it's not about being the best pharmacist. It's all about the "numbers." This thread needs to be renamed, "YES, WE ARE NAIVE!"
 

BC_89

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TerryTerry

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Can pharmacists really find jobs easily if they are willing to move to rural areas?
Some people keep saying that but I just don`t know.
 

mentos

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That is not true, if you go to pharmacy school you will be $200,000 poorer whether you pay for school or not. This is one big factor that pre-pharms do not account for, opportunity cost. By going to pharmacy school you are sacrificing 4 years of your life. You could spend that 4 years at an average job and earn $200,000 in that time. So for people that spend $200,000 on tuition, they are essentially losing $400,000 after opportunity cost.

Can pharmacists really find jobs easily if they are willing to move to rural areas?
Some people keep saying that but I just don`t know.
It's not easy, just less hard than in an urban area. Moving to BFE is a big deal though. Moving costs time and effort and has a big emotional impact even you leave your friend and family to live somewhere where you don't know anyone, and has little opportunity to meet new people.
 

kbv

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Tuition and Fees in-state and

The rates listed below apply to the 2019 - 2020 academic year. $39,500 / academic year

More than 10 years ago $26,000
And thousands of dollars of general fees
Health insurance
 

TerryTerry

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It's not easy, just less hard than in an urban area. Moving to BFE is a big deal though. Moving costs time and effort and has a big emotional impact even you leave your friend and family to live somewhere where you don't know anyone, and has little opportunity to meet new people.
It`s hard to imagine rural areas to offer any real relief when it comes to new graduates finding jobs.

There are bunch of pharmacists willing to work at low rate because they cannot afford to retire.
There can`t possibly be enough remote pharmacies in the country to meet the supply of new students.

Almost all pharmacists will be willing to relocate once they can`t find a job for a month or two.
Willing to relocate definitely helped finding a job a year or two ago. I am not so sure about that anymore.
 
May 31, 2019
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I can tell you that jobs are already drying up in rural areas of California such as the Central Valley. Jobs used to be plentiful in rural areas a decade ago but not anymore. With the number of new grads exceeding the number of jobs available, there won't be anymore job openings.
 

BC_89

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That is not true, if you go to pharmacy school you will be $200,000 poorer whether you pay for school or not. This is one big factor that pre-pharms do not account for, opportunity cost. By going to pharmacy school you are sacrificing 4 years of your life. You could spend that 4 years at an average job and earn $200,000 in that time. So for people that spend $200,000 on tuition, they are essentially losing $400,000 after opportunity cost.
I accept your challenge: My program is a 3 year program so lets crunch #'s specifically for me (since I need to trump the "all" category of pre-pharms)

TLDR; Look to the bottom of page to see final results for everyone else

If I choose to not go to school, then lets say I go and work for the VA at the GS-6 or GS-7 rate with a degree and buy-back my time from military service (since this is my best option financially speaking right out the gate).


High End: $47,264 annually first year (unrealistic because this is step 10 level but lets play the cards in your favor + inflation adjustment per year)

$47,264 x 3 = $141,792 (I wont include my tax bracket) --> I would contribute in the FERS program and invest in a TSP plan as I did in the service

Military Pension: $41,245.20 (Tax Exempt and adjusted for inflation) x 3 = $123,735.60 (all tax exempt)

Spouse stays with kids while I work so no child-care costs

Total money for working for 3 years instead of schooling: $265,527.60




How about if I attend the program? Let's see the difference


[$46,667 (Tuition)] + [$15,500 (COLA)] x 3 = $186,501


Just Focus on the Monthly Housing Allowance listed at $2,262 (adjusted each October for inflation)
We just got approved for rental property at $1250 per month from family friend. Thus we are pocketing $2,262 - 1250 = $1,012 (utilities are a wash for both cases)

$1,012 x 3 = $3,036

GI Bill + Yellow Ribbon Program matches tuition: thus $186,501 - $186,501 = $0.00 / or / $186,501

I qualify for child care service due to service connected documents while a full time student allowing the wife to work as a social worker of which she starts in July and I'll round down her salary before any taxes (5 years experience): $57,000

$57,000 x 3 = $171,000 (company matches 50 cents on the dollar for first 3% then dollar for dollar for another 2%)

Military Pension: $3,437.10 per month ---> $3,437.10 x (12) = $41,245.20 ---> $40,165.20 x 3 = $123,735.60

So...Since I both contribute to some form of 401k + Roth IRA while either working for 3 years or in school for 3 years, I'll put that as a wash.

Annual Book Stipend: $1,000 (Talking with faculty and students, nobody buys books or buy and sell with pennies on a dollar)

$1,000 x 3 = $3,000

Total Out of Pocket : $0.00

Total Money in Pocket: $3,036 + $171,000 + $123,735.60 + $3,000 = $300,771.60 (Add $186,501 for tuition coverage pay-out plus childcare expense and I have the cheapest health insurance one can get for life at pennies of the cost)


The Difference: 3 years on the Job (265,527.60) - 3 years in program ($300,771.60) = ***$35,244***


Conclusion



If I don't go to school, my opportunity cost is $35,244!!! I make more investment opportunities being a full time student

Even more if I include the tuition as "income-paid-to-school"..... That's actually $221,745 dollars put in my name going toward my investment (add in the Tuition being covered and not just money in my pocket).
 
Jan 9, 2019
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Can pharmacists really find jobs easily if they are willing to move to rural areas?
Some people keep saying that but I just don`t know.
From strictly a numbers standpoint, your chances of getting a job in BFE is much easier than trying to look for a job in a large, metro city along the coasts.

However, what nobody talks about is that places in BFE are LESS LIKELY to hire people coming from non-BFE areas because those people are likely to leave for another job back home the first chance they get— so why make the investment in someone who is only going to stay for 1-2 years when you can hire someone local who will live there for the next 20 years?

This type of hiring bias certainly does not exist in metro areas because the reverse is true — even if the candidate has no ties to the area, you know they aren’t going to bounce the first chance they get because the job is in a “desirable” location.

Trust me, as someone who has worked in BFE before this kind of thinking is why many “qualified” candidates from out of state aren’t even given interviews when we are hiring.
 
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Timbo

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From strictly a numbers standpoint, your chances of getting a job in BFE is much easier than trying to look for a job in a large, metro city along the coasts.

However, what nobody talks about is that places in BFE are LESS LIKELY to hire people coming from non-BFE areas because those people are likely to leave for another job back home the first chance they get— so why make the investment in someone who is only going to stay for 1-2 years when you can hire someone local who will live there for the next 20 years?

This type of hiring bias certainly does not exist in metro areas because the reverse is true — even if the candidate has no ties to the area, you know they aren’t going to bounce the first chance they get because the job is in a “desirable” location.

Trust me, as someone who has worked in BFE before this kind of thinking is why many “qualified” candidates from out of state aren’t even given interviews when we are hiring.
I've seen this happen too but I think it will happen less and less. Pretty soon there will be no jobs in metro areas for people working in rural areas to leave for. They'll be stuck working in BFE whether they like it or not. Then rural areas will become saturated too. People talk as if these rural places are a bottomless well for jobs. Let's be realistic...when there's 15,000 new pharmDs per year, it's not going to take long before these rural places are fully staffed.
 
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May 31, 2019
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Unfortunately, the whole concept of 3 years on the pharmacist job with $120,000 per year isn't applicable anymore. I'm shocked at how naive new students are when all they look at are the inflated numbers of $120,000 per year, yet they fail to look at the current job market.
Many new grads are unable to land full-time pharmacist positions because those jobs aren't available anymore. Many have to shell out working part-time. You're lucky if you can get 32 hours of work for week.
Secondly, I wouldn't purchase any property regardless of how low a friend or relative can get for you. Chances are you'll have to relocate to where the job is.
New students have very lofty outlook and expectations of the pharmacy profession but it's always best to consult an actual working pharmacist about reality.
 
Jan 9, 2019
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I've seen this happen too but I think it will happen less and less. Pretty soon there will be no jobs in metro areas for people working in rural areas to leave for. They'll be stuck working in BFE whether they like it or not. Then rural areas will become saturated too. People talk as if these rural places are a bottomless well for jobs. Let's be realistic...when there's 15,000 new pharmDs per year, it's not going to take long before these rural places are fully staffed.
However, the perception that “there are always jobs in BFE” is one that is going to persist for a good while. The propaganda that some posters like aznkuoboi on r/pharmacy put out such as “Central California is always hiring, tons of shifts/jobs open, $75+/hr salary” are the things that pre-pharms pick up on and point to as evidence that the job market isn’t bad.
 
May 31, 2019
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Central California is in really bad shape right now in terms of actual pharmacist positions available.
It seems to me that prospective students within the last few years all cry in unison with only one type of justification for going in to pharmacy: Money. NO ONE should ever go into the pharmacy profession for money. I'm appalled and disgusted by the fact that money is the main drive for why prospective students want to go into pharmacy in the first place.
If you really want to make money, then you should go into the tech industry. That's where the future and the money will be.
 

VictorOfHungerGames

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Knowledge is power. And knowing the facts and preventing someone from making huge career choice is also power. I would like to exercise my power to prevent anyone from going into pharmacy. Period. Ive been on the job market. Ive done many interviews. Trust me, im in the most abundant pharmacy market in the nation. Yet, still there are at least 150 applicants per a job opening. 150!!! Some are up to 500. That is an insane number for just ONE job. Especially as a professional career.

Yes, it is not JUST bc we are pessimist. It is bc some of us have personally experienced what this is all about.

Yes, i want to be the best pharmacist i can be. Help patients get healthier and make sure they are safe. But i cant do that if i dont have a job as a pharmacist, now can i?
 
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TerryTerry

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Knowledge is power. And knowing the facts and preventing someone from making huge career choice is also power. I would like to exercise my power to prevent anyone from going into pharmacy. Period. Ive been on the job market. Ive done many interviews. Trust me, im in the most abundant pharmacy market in the nation. Yet, still there are at least 150 applicants per a job opening. 150!!! Some are up to 500. That is an insane number for just ONE job. Especially as a professional career.

Yes, it is not JUST bc we are pessimist. It is bc some of us have personally experienced what this is all about.

Yes, i want to be the best pharmacist i can be. Help patients get healthier and make sure they are safe. But i cant do that if i dont have a job as a pharmacist, now can i?
Tough wouldn`t properly describe current pharmacist job market. I cannot even imagine how it`s going to be in a few years.

Most pre-pharms are young. Many of them think they have that extra special edge required to succeed.
They wouldn`t mind getting into 6 figure debt and waste 4 to 6 years of their life because their youth drive them to think they can afford it and stay invincible.

I want to advise them to work more on social skill, being presentable(pretty) and connection.
Without these, the chance of finding a job is slim to none.
 

DagS132

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Really, the old timers shouldn't discourage the new generation.....an endless supply of dim, naive, entitled snowflakes applying for jobs just makes the experienced older pharmacists look good!
lol, these people really struck a nerve on ya huh?