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RF - medical school is not intended to only produce clinicians/glorified technicians/super-star PA/NPs.

Medical school is - and in my opinion, should be - designed to produce graduates who can become clinicians, but also politicians, researchers, skeptics, device engineers, leaders, professors, and so on.

Medicine is SO much more than clinical. Most clinical stuff can be handled by a well-trained and very experienced PA.

Also, as I mentioned above, undergrad should NOT be to learn stuff like the Kreb's cycle. Undergrad is NOT pre-professional school. Indeed, the more it becomes pre-medical school, the weaker the profession of medicine becomes.

IMO
HH

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RF - medical school is not intended to only produce clinicians/glorified technicians/super-star PA/NPs.

Medical school is - and in my opinion, should be - designed to produce graduates who can become clinicians, but also politicians, researchers, skeptics, device engineers, leaders, professors, and so on.

Medicine is SO much more than clinical. Most clinical stuff can be handled by a well-trained and very experienced PA.

Also, as I mentioned above, undergrad should NOT be to learn stuff like the Kreb's cycle. Undergrad is NOT pre-professional school. Indeed, the more it becomes pre-medical school, the weaker the profession of medicine becomes.

IMO
HH

indeed, we should enjoy german language courses and study boring films instead. Now doing a few balance sheets and some hardcore stats, thats more like it.
 
RF - medical school is not intended to only produce clinicians/glorified technicians/super-star PA/NPs.

Medical school is - and in my opinion, should be - designed to produce graduates who can become clinicians, but also politicians, researchers, skeptics, device engineers, leaders, professors, and so on.

Medicine is SO much more than clinical. Most clinical stuff can be handled by a well-trained and very experienced PA.

Also, as I mentioned above, undergrad should NOT be to learn stuff like the Kreb's cycle. Undergrad is NOT pre-professional school. Indeed, the more it becomes pre-medical school, the weaker the profession of medicine becomes.

IMO
HH

I have to respectfully disagree with you. If you're not in medical school to practice medicine, then you're wasting a quarter million/four years of your life, and taking up the spot for someone else who wants to be a clinician.

See my above comments (earlier in thread) regarding the capability of even the "better" NPs/PAs regarding their clinical capabilities.

Can't be a stem cell forever. Sure, you can do all those other things on your own time, but the purpose of "medical school" should be to teach medicine. Thus, the name.

Sepulveda: I know that nurses know plenty. Mom was a nurse, Aunt is still a cath lab nurse, Dad is dating a nurse. Sure; they're good at recognizing some things, yeah. I love my ED nurses at my home institution. They're great; but they don't think on the level that we do. Comparing streamlining medical education to "what nurses do" is just inaccurate.

My point remains: medical school can be done a lot better than it is. Basic science knowledge is essential, yes... but its being done in the wrong way.
 
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Sepulveda: I know that nurses know plenty. Mom was a nurse, Aunt is still a cath lab nurse, Dad is dating a nurse. Sure; they're good at recognizing some things, yeah. I love my ED nurses at my home institution. They're great; but they don't think on the level that we do. Comparing streamlining medical education to "what nurses do" is just inaccurate.

My point remains: medical school can be done a lot better than it is. Basic science knowledge is essential, yes... but its being done in the wrong way.

It seems that none of us wants to do away with the necessary tedium of basic science. However, Fox makes the point that the driving force of all med school instruction should be the endpoint of practicing medicine.

While we disagree a bit on how to get there, I have to say I am very happy with how my school does it. We do Anatomy and molecular bio/biochem in the first semester of the M1 year. The nice thing is that we also get PBL cases to do in small groups as we progress through these courses that tie the basic science with actual clinical problem solving. I have found this to be appropriate for the level of an M1. The process somewhat repeats the M2 year, but with an equal focus on diagnosis and initial therapy.

Which brings me to my last point which is: how do you make a physician?
At my school, which by no means is a "top" school, we focus first on the basic science, then diagnosis, and then the aspects of management.

Discuss...
 
I have a prior post in this thread that describes my feelings behind achieving this end. Directionality is the key. Nobody wants to be brained with seemingly pointless basic science ad nauseum.

I do a lot of classroom teaching at my home-base medical school, and all the feedback that I've gotten has been to the tune of - "Thank you for letting me know why I'm doing this first, then letting me explore the depth of the science behind it. It works way better this way."

Med school is for making doctors, not senators, attorneys, or whatever.
 
RF - medical school is not intended to only produce clinicians/glorified technicians/super-star PA/NPs...

Medicine is SO much more than clinical. Most clinical stuff can be handled by a well-trained and very experienced PA.

Mid-levels are so integrated into healthcare now, it's starting to delude some into this kind of thinking. I like how you believe that a doctor who solely practices clinically could essentially be considered a "glorified PA/NP."

I don't know about the rest of you, but my medical school application essay alluded to helping people, connecting with patients, and directly seeing my work make someone better. I wanted to become a doctor, well, to be a doctor.
 
I have a prior post in this thread that describes my feelings behind achieving this end. Directionality is the key. Nobody wants to be brained with seemingly pointless basic science ad nauseum.

I do a lot of classroom teaching at my home-base medical school, and all the feedback that I've gotten has been to the tune of - "Thank you for letting me know why I'm doing this first, then letting me explore the depth of the science behind it. It works way better this way."

Med school is for making doctors, not senators, attorneys, or whatever.

I agree with your methods, but I think that it makes you a more skilled lecturer. I'm sure I posted this earlier, but lectures even in basic science tend to be better understood when tied to a clinical issue. Thus, I feel that the changes you seek are actually more nuanced and less revolutionary. It sounds like you want lectures and schools in general to keep their eye on the prize so to speak when designing and implementing content. No?
 
I've talked with the MS-2s at length about this. They all know who I am. The prevailing sentiment is - "That Dr. RustedFox is one crazy fella; but when he talks, I learn - not because he's an animated character, but because he teaches me 'mad doctor skills'.

When the MS-2s leave some crusty old fellas physiology lecture, they think:

"Gee, I just listened to 52 minutes of ion channels, proteins, gradients, and... whatever... I tuned that **** out 18 minutes in to the lecture... because its more of the same that I choked down in undergrad. I learned NOTHING about how to take care of a patient... and that's why I thought I fought so hard to get into medical school... to learn how to take care of patients."

When the MS-2s leave one of my lectures, they think:

"Whoa ! I know what to do when I see crazy-as$ electrolyte abnormalities ! Look out, wards !- Not only can I now do that (because any idiot can memorize *what* to do in a given situation)... I know why I'm slinging calcium gluconate... this is what separates me from nursemonkeys that just follow protocols !"

Think about it like this: each and EVERY lecture should teach you some sort of useful skill FIRST... then... get into the dirt behind it. If it can't be supported clinically that well, then it most likely falls towards the "useless" end of the spectrum (obscure biochem, embryo, etc.), and should be eschewed in favor of more useful curriculum.

Be honest with yourself: do YOU remember lipid metabolism on the spot? No? Me neither. But I bet you can fix hypoglycemia in the short term while you pull it up on the web and get the appropriate "fellowship-caliber education necessary" consult.

Give the student a palpable, immediate, useful objective. Then give them the next one. Watch them suck it down and learn, and learn fast. They won't be satisfied with knowing just 'what' to do, but they'll figure out 'why' they're doing it.

Another thing to think about: I never want to hear the argument of "well, that's the way its been done for years and years." Screw that. I frequently listen to some old fossil attending squeak about how things were better done "back in his day". Bollocks to that. Twenty-five years ago, science understood a pittance about the immune system, didn't have a good handle on even the pathophys of HIV/AIDS, and (ready for this?) they used to treat MIs with aspirin and lidocaine. No cath lab. No lytics. Reperfusion? Pffft...Here... bite on this stick. I'm being liberal with my examples (before anyone looks up when tPA/angioplasty came into vogue and calls me a liar), but you get my point. Right now, the "ICE protocol" is all the rage. We're cooling people after their ischemic events and watching as it works on the small-scale. In 25 more years, the whole paradigm will shift again. We're going to say things like - "I can't believe that orthopods used to put metal replacement knee joints into people.... can you imagine life before regenerative cartilage gene therapy? Pathetic."

Its 2012. In the time it takes you to fart, GenVeers can check his e-mail on his smartphone. Things were "done better" back in your day? I think not. Things change. Science advances. Education needs to change along with it.

If you want to teach every single pathway and every single step and every single cofactor... then medical school is going to be twelve years long pretty soon.... and that's after undergrad... and that doesn't count residency.

Nobody is going to spring for that. Not the student. Not the loan companies. Not the government. Not even (gasp) the lawyers.

Thus, you need to streamline education. Period.

Let me expound:

People can be as rose-glassed and idealistic as they want to be, and say things like - "I think that the purpose of medical school should be to offer you a well-rounded educat...".... Nope. Sorry.

Practically speaking... you can make the argument that undergrad should be the time to "offer you a well-rounded educat... " Nope... sorry... not at $20+K a year (if you're paying it), and certainly not at the cost of developing some serious, market-ready job skills. After all, those loans that you took out to study "Russian Fairy-Tales", "Latin American Today", and the "History of Jazz" (I took all of those classes) have to be paid back. Sharpish. Got a job ? Many of my buddies who farted around, and wound up with a communications or psychology major are now jobless, penniless, and in some serious debt. Sucks to be them. Really does.

This whole notion of "you can study anything you like forever and be fulfilled and productive and... whatever..." is bogus. At the end of the day, the bill comes due. If it wasn't you that paid the bill... maybe it was your parents... maybe a scholarship (also, not you)... then you're lucky, but you probably also don't appreciate the value of time or money. I admit: I had a partial academic scholarship from my university. Saved me a bunch of cash on tuition. My dad kicked in a little bit. Saved me some cash on books... but I still recognized that the money came from SOMEWHERE. It was earned by someone. It didn't just appear so I could fart it away.

Education needs to change. You can't just hand out B.S. degrees to everyone "just for trying". You can't keep a medical student studying cofactors forever. You can't have PGY-15s still trying to chase around someone's renal function.

At the end of the day... $hit needs to get done. And it can't all get done in one day.

What are you gonna do today ?
 
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Note: Edited my post to give a nod to GenVeers. Original text now reads:

Its 2012. In the time it takes you to fart, GenVeers can check his e-mail on his smartphone.

I hope he reads this and laughs. Then I hope he drinks a beer.
 
Can I hear an..... AMEN?

Amen brother RustedFox. I have been saying this since the start of medical school 6-7 years ago. Antiquated garbage and it is in for serious change. Well the first year anyhow.

Thanks for so eloquently reflecting my feelings on the subject.:love:

I've talked with the MS-2s at length about this. They all know who I am. The prevailing sentiment is - "That Dr. RustedFox is one crazy fella; but when he talks, I learn - not because he's an animated character, but because he teaches me 'mad doctor skills'.

When the MS-2s leave some crusty old fellas physiology lecture, they think:

"Gee, I just listened to 52 minutes of ion channels, proteins, gradients, and... whatever... I tuned that **** out 18 minutes in to the lecture... because its more of the same that I choked down in undergrad. I learned NOTHING about how to take care of a patient... and that's why I thought I fought so hard to get into medical school... to learn how to take care of patients."

When the MS-2s leave one of my lectures, they think:

"Whoa ! I know what to do when I see crazy-as$ electrolyte abnormalities ! Look out, wards !- Not only can I now do that (because any idiot can memorize *what* to do in a given situation)... I know why I'm slinging calcium gluconate... this is what separates me from nursemonkeys that just follow protocols !"

Think about it like this: each and EVERY lecture should teach you some sort of useful skill FIRST... then... get into the dirt behind it. If it can't be supported clinically that well, then it most likely falls towards the "useless" end of the spectrum (obscure biochem, embryo, etc.), and should be eschewed in favor of more useful curriculum.

Be honest with yourself: do YOU remember lipid metabolism on the spot? No? Me neither. But I bet you can fix hypoglycemia in the short term while you pull it up on the web and get the appropriate "fellowship-caliber education necessary" consult.

Give the student a palpable, immediate, useful objective. Then give them the next one. Watch them suck it down and learn, and learn fast. They won't be satisfied with knowing just 'what' to do, but they'll figure out 'why' they're doing it.

Another thing to think about: I never want to hear the argument of "well, that's the way its been done for years and years." Screw that. I frequently listen to some old fossil attending squeak about how things were better done "back in his day". Bollocks to that. Twenty-five years ago, science understood a pittance about the immune system, didn't have a good handle on even the pathophys of HIV/AIDS, and (ready for this?) they used to treat MIs with aspirin and lidocaine. No cath lab. No lytics. Reperfusion? Pffft...Here... bite on this stick. I'm being liberal with my examples (before anyone looks up when tPA/angioplasty came into vogue and calls me a liar), but you get my point. Right now, the "ICE protocol" is all the rage. We're cooling people after their ischemic events and watching as it works on the small-scale. In 25 more years, the whole paradigm will shift again. We're going to say things like - "I can't believe that orthopods used to put metal replacement knee joints into people.... can you imagine life before regenerative cartilage gene therapy? Pathetic."

Its 2012. In the time it takes you to fart, GenVeers can check his e-mail on his smartphone. Things were "done better" back in your day? I think not. Things change. Science advances. Education needs to change along with it.

If you want to teach every single pathway and every single step and every single cofactor... then medical school is going to be twelve years long pretty soon.... and that's after undergrad... and that doesn't count residency.

Nobody is going to spring for that. Not the student. Not the loan companies. Not the government. Not even (gasp) the lawyers.

Thus, you need to streamline education. Period.

Let me expound:

People can be as rose-glassed and idealistic as they want to be, and say things like - "I think that the purpose of medical school should be to offer you a well-rounded educat...".... Nope. Sorry.

Practically speaking... you can make the argument that undergrad should be the time to "offer you a well-rounded educat... " Nope... sorry... not at $20+K a year (if you're paying it), and certainly not at the cost of developing some serious, market-ready job skills. After all, those loans that you took out to study "Russian Fairy-Tales", "Latin American Today", and the "History of Jazz" (I took all of those classes) have to be paid back. Sharpish. Got a job ? Many of my buddies who farted around, and wound up with a communications or psychology major are now jobless, penniless, and in some serious debt. Sucks to be them. Really does.

This whole notion of "you can study anything you like forever and be fulfilled and productive and... whatever..." is bogus. At the end of the day, the bill comes due. If it wasn't you that paid the bill... maybe it was your parents... maybe a scholarship (also, not you)... then you're lucky, but you probably also don't appreciate the value of time or money. I admit: I had a partial academic scholarship from my university. Saved me a bunch of cash on tuition. My dad kicked in a little bit. Saved me some cash on books... but I still recognized that the money came from SOMEWHERE. It was earned by someone. It didn't just appear so I could fart it away.

Education needs to change. You can't just hand out B.S. degrees to everyone "just for trying". You can't keep a medical student studying cofactors forever. You can't have PGY-15s still trying to chase around someone's renal function.

At the end of the day... $hit needs to get done. And it can't all get done in one day.

What are you gonna do today ?
 
Great post.
Another thing to think about: I never want to hear the argument of "well, that's the way its been done for years and years." Screw that. I frequently listen to some old fossil attending squeak about how things were better done "back in his day". Bollocks to that. Twenty-five years ago, science understood a pittance about the immune system, didn't have a good handle on even the pathophys of HIV/AIDS, and (ready for this?) they used to treat MIs with aspirin and lidocaine. No cath lab. No lytics. Reperfusion? Pffft...Here... bite on this stick.

I totally agree with your annoyance with old crusty attendings. They reminisce about their great clinical diagnoses...weird syndromes, clinical findings, etc. Their tool bag was so small that for the most part, it wasn't important to rule out things that they couldn't change. They don't tell about the hundreds of bad diagnoses they missed, or suspected, but usually blew off because there wasn't anything to be done for it. "The Take-an-Aspirin and-Call-Me-in-the-Morning-Mentality" would be a much easier environment to live in. Why diagnose an aneurysm if there is no coiling, vascular clips, or angiography? Why diagnose a ruptured aorta if there isn't a synthetic graft to replace it with? You had penicillin and a surgeon, what else?

Practically speaking... you can make the argument that undergrad should be the time to "offer you a well-rounded educat... " Nope... sorry... not at $20+K a year (if you're paying it), and certainly not at the cost of developing some serious, market-ready job skills. After all, those loans that you took out to study "Russian Fairy-Tales", "Latin American Today", and the "History of Jazz" (I took all of those classes) have to be paid back. Sharpish. Got a job ? Many of my buddies who farted around, and wound up with a communications or psychology major are now jobless, penniless, and in some serious debt. Sucks to be them. Really does.
Have you read "Crazy U"? If you haven't, I think you would love it. For the most part, it is a diatribe about getting into universities. It also highlights and explains why the ridiculous cost of education has sky-rocketed even faster than other soietal costs (healthcare). About a third of the book is devoted to a devastating critique of modern colleges. Namely, the ridiculous emphasis on research and liberal arts, and an utter disregard for actual quality lecturers. The trend persists in Medical School.
 
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Thanks for the nod.

I'll have to pick up that "Crazy U" book after I move. Gawd, I'm looking forward to being an attending and not having to be pulled around by "journal club", "conference", "logging duty hours" and "rotation evaluations".

I don't wanna belabor the point; I feel like I've made it, but by far the most common complaint that I hear among the MS1-MS2 crowd that I interact with is that they learn very few practical skills in the first year and a half, and instead get the feeling that they're getting "OMG MOAR REPEAT SCIENCE PLZ ! LOLZ!" A good many say things like -

"Jeez, I thought I was done crunching graphs and caring about weirdo mathematics (Henderson-Hesselbalch) when I finished undergrad... now I want to learn my JOB so I can get really good at it.... but the longer I'm here, it feels like the further away I get from seeing patients and knowing what to do."

That kills me. Medical school should be the reward that you worked so hard to get into... that way, its further encouraging.

Other random things that could be eliminated from the curriculum:

The "I don't do that job" trivia bits, such as "This bug needs to grow on Thayer-Martin Agar... that one needs factor V and X to grow in the petri dish." - MDs/DOs don't do that nonsense; the lab does. I remember painfully memorizing which gram+ cocci are inhibited by things like "optochin" and "whateverflouride", only to never use that data again. This could be replaced with a good lecture on "how to select a good antibiotic given the clinical data in front of you". Way more useful.

Genetics of things that aren't clinically applicable: I remember things in my genetics class like bacteriophage delta or gamma and its role in gene transduction. Yep. That matters a whole lot clinically. Oh, and "Lac Operon" for the fifth time, anyone ? IPOZYA... promoter binds to operator at an upstream... -10 and -32 base pair.... pfffft.

Oh, and for Gawd's Sake, make sure that you KNOW the difference between DNA polymerase I, II, III, delta, and *fart noise*.
 
Thanks for the nod.

I'll have to pick up that "Crazy U" book after I move. Gawd, I'm looking forward to being an attending and not having to be pulled around by "journal club", "conference", "logging duty hours" and "rotation evaluations".

I don't wanna belabor the point; I feel like I've made it, but by far the most common complaint that I hear among the MS1-MS2 crowd that I interact with is that they learn very few practical skills in the first year and a half, and instead get the feeling that they're getting "OMG MOAR REPEAT SCIENCE PLZ ! LOLZ!" A good many say things like -

"Jeez, I thought I was done crunching graphs and caring about weirdo mathematics (Henderson-Hesselbalch) when I finished undergrad... now I want to learn my JOB so I can get really good at it.... but the longer I'm here, it feels like the further away I get from seeing patients and knowing what to do."

That kills me. Medical school should be the reward that you worked so hard to get into... that way, its further encouraging.

Other random things that could be eliminated from the curriculum:

The "I don't do that job" trivia bits, such as "This bug needs to grow on Thayer-Martin Agar... that one needs factor V and X to grow in the petri dish." - MDs/DOs don't do that nonsense; the lab does. I remember painfully memorizing which gram+ cocci are inhibited by things like "optochin" and "whateverflouride", only to never use that data again. This could be replaced with a good lecture on "how to select a good antibiotic given the clinical data in front of you". Way more useful.

Genetics of things that aren't clinically applicable: I remember things in my genetics class like bacteriophage delta or gamma and its role in gene transduction. Yep. That matters a whole lot clinically. Oh, and "Lac Operon" for the fifth time, anyone ? IPOZYA... promoter binds to operator at an upstream... -10 and -32 base pair.... pfffft.

Oh, and for Gawd's Sake, make sure that you KNOW the difference between DNA polymerase I, II, III, delta, and *fart noise*.

We do need to prepare for step 1 though. Now if changes were made to step 1, getting rid of that nonsense would be great.
 
Gawd, I'm looking forward to being an attending and not having to be pulled around by "journal club", "conference", "logging duty hours" and "rotation evaluations".

Get ready to attend endless section meetings, QA meetings, con ed, and answering patient complaint letters.

The more things change the more they stay the same.
 
Hmm... verrrr-ryy interest-t'ing.

Seems like "correlate clinically" isn't going to cut it anymore... about effing time.
It's interesting, just a few years ago the Rads job market was booming (market crash + decreased remibursements in imaging + more trainees being pumped out every year). It's funny how these fields change, they can be so popular so quickly and then people lose interest in the when the money dries up. Rads is quickly looking like Path in that regard. Path was a cash cow about 10 years now, and now due to similar reasons is dealing with problems--glut of practitioners, decresed reimbursements, too many trainees, etc.. In both fields, residents are having to do two fellowships to get jobs or just to avoid being unemployed. I wonder if in a few years this will happen with EM: interest surges to fill the need for EM docs, and then suddenly market is saturated, and pay drops. Suddenly residency spots open up again. And the cycle of life continues....

The message for me is just pick what you like doing and you will find a way to be successful at it. Medicine offers enough control, flexibility and options in any field that you can do well and work how you like. You just have to look for the right opportunities.
 
I should bring back that pic.

Bruce Campbell FTW. If you don't already, follow him on Twitter. He's the fan-friendliest guy, ever.

@Silent Cool: Good thinking... the only thing I think that helps to "insulate" (bad verb choice) us from that is that the American populous just keeps getting unhealthier. We're using midlevels to help fill the demand now (something that I'm also ardently against). Rads/path may have been different because they don't actually have any patient contact. Ever.
 
Bruce Campbell FTW. If you don't already, follow him on Twitter. He's the fan-friendliest guy, ever.

@Silent Cool: Good thinking... the only thing I think that helps to "insulate" (bad verb choice) us from that is that the American populous just keeps getting unhealthier. We're using midlevels to help fill the demand now (something that I'm also ardently against). Rads/path may have been different because they don't actually have any patient contact. Ever.

U/S guided drainage? LP under fluoro? F/u liver biopsy (patient, not tissue)? the first one maybe from the ED, the second one definitely from the ED, the third never from the ED - but all I've seen, and all have actual radiologist physical contact with patients.
 
I'm man enough to admit when I'm wrong; but in my experience - its never the radiologist who is actually doing the procedure. Generally a surgical resident.
 
RustedFox,

You, sir, are someone I'd like to have a beer with. Cheers to you, man. I've been screaming about medical school being taught wrong since day 1. I come from an engineering background so many of the things I got first and second year just flat didn't make sense. I've been wanting to do some sort of educational study of the first two years of medical school looking at how it's taught vs. how students actually learn today. The majority of professors have zero training in education or clinical experience. Just because you have a Ph.D. doesn't make you a good teacher. Neither does having an MD/DO attached to your name. Plus, most of our clinical educators are so far out of practice or haven't been up to date in clinical practice in the past decade. Plus, the majority of the lecturers I had would pop an aneurysm if powerpoint came up with some sort of error message. It's sad.

Anyways, I agree whole-heartedly with your assessment of current medical (and undergraduate) education. And I'd love to be part of the change that begins to make things better.
 
RustedFox, what do you think about medical schools that utilize a systems-based approach coupled with problem based learning?
 
RF - medical school is not intended to only produce clinicians/glorified technicians/super-star PA/NPs.

Medical school is - and in my opinion, should be - designed to produce graduates who can become clinicians, but also politicians, researchers, skeptics, device engineers, leaders, professors, and so on.

Medicine is SO much more than clinical. Most clinical stuff can be handled by a well-trained and very experienced PA.

Also, as I mentioned above, undergrad should NOT be to learn stuff like the Kreb's cycle. Undergrad is NOT pre-professional school. Indeed, the more it becomes pre-medical school, the weaker the profession of medicine becomes.

IMO
HH

This is the point that is completely being missed. Anyone can follow an algorithm. Learning the tools to think is undervalued in our current society.
 
RustedFox, what do you think about medical schools that utilize a systems-based approach coupled with problem based learning?

Teaching "clinical medicine" at any part during the MS "1 thru 4" years should be what medical school is ALL about. Yes... you should learn the "why" and not just the "what", but the focus needs to remain clinical. This is what is all-too-often ignored by those who write the curriculum.

If you don't have "the tools to think" by the time you're an MS-1, then you shouldn't have been admitted to medical school. There's so much "reasoning" involved in the pre-medical curriculum that if you didn't pick up on "critical thinking skills" along the way, then... I don't even know what to say besides - "Maybe you shouldn't have cheated off of your neighbor so much." Undergrad should be where you really cement those skills. If you disagree with me about "the purpose of undergrad", then that's fine... but see my above post about paying for it all in the end.

Once upon a time, undergrad was where students went to spend maybe a year "finding themselves", then the other three learning some market-useful job skills, or preparing for professional school. Now, its a place where students go to "find themselves" for three years, and then complain about their lack of job options for the next 2-3 years while doing things like "occupying" wherever.

Undergrad isn't just one big party. You need to learn something while you're there. And if you're not going to be able to parlay that into a living, then... get the hell out of undergrad and stop spending so much money. If you just want to play in drum circles and opine about current issues... then you can do that just as well while not wasting 20K a year.

There's some Kayne West lyric about - "I know that guy, finished his degree, still works at Denny's" or something like that. (Forgive me, I'm not a fan)... if you know what I'm talking about, g'head and fill me in. Illustrates my point pretty well.
 
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Teaching "clinical medicine" at any part during the MS "1 thru 4" years should be what medical school is ALL about. Yes... you should learn the "why" and not just the "what", but the focus needs to remain clinical. This is what is all-too-often ignored by those who write the curriculum.

If you don't have "the tools to think" by the time you're an MS-1, then you shouldn't have been admitted to medical school. There's so much "reasoning" involved in the pre-medical curriculum that if you didn't pick up on "critical thinking skills" along the way, then... I don't even know what to say besides - "Maybe you shouldn't have cheated off of your neighbor so much." Undergrad should be where you really cement those skills. If you disagree with me about "the purpose of undergrad", then that's fine... but see my above post about paying for it all in the end.

Once upon a time, undergrad was where students went to spend maybe a year "finding themselves", then the other three learning some market-useful job skills, or preparing for professional school. Now, its a place where students go to "find themselves" for three years, and then complain about their lack of job options for the next 2-3 years while doing things like "occupying" wherever.

Undergrad isn't just one big party. You need to learn something while you're there. And if you're not going to be able to parlay that into a living, then... get the hell out of undergrad and stop spending so much money. If you just want to play in drum circles and opine about current issues... then you can do that just as well while not wasting 20K a year
.


100% agree. It is a problem of epic proportions. But 20K a year? More like 40 in today's market
 
There's some Kayne West lyric about - "I know that guy, finished his degree, still works at Denny's" or something like that. (Forgive me, I'm not a fan)... if you know what I'm talking about, g'head and fill me in. Illustrates my point pretty well.

My hip-hop-literate wifey tells me that the name of the song is "School Spirit", and that the restaurant in question is "Cheesecake", not Denny's.

So there.
 
Yeah, honestly I was surprised there were NO spots this year, not counting the EM/IM spots. I had a gut feeling that last year was just way more competitive, but for there to be absolutely no spots caught me off guard. Although I think that what was more surprising was the number of slots for other specialties too. Only 51 medicine slots didnt fill, 123 med pre-lims (seems like a small amount for all the scramblers), no ortho, 2 neurosurg, 2 ENT, 0 PM&R. Perhaps the most surprising stat was actually there were 11 PGY-2 Derm spots and 75 PGY-2 Rads spots... Either way, the numbers this year don't favor the new SOAP process.

Hopefully those that do have to "SOAP" will have even better luck next year. I feel just awful for the people I know that are going through the process this week...


In regards to the SOAP, I was in the war room with my classmates who had to do the SOAP Kabuki Theater.

I got the impression that some competitive programs intentionally sand bagged to see who they could get in the SOAP. That's a WAG on my part. It's also possible that this year was a learning process for everyone.

Either way, it was a mess.
 
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