RANT HERE thread

[LetItSnow]

I went into vet med to care for all animals, not just the well-behaved, friendly kind - although I very much appreciated those kind whenever they showed up in the exam room.

If you're implying that I would only treat the "well-behaved, friendly kind" - I think that's an unfair, and unsupported, accusation to level, as well as being a bit hyperbole-laced. I treat fractious animals as best I can just like any other animal, but there are limits, and I don't feel obligated - legally OR ethically - to treat every animal that walks through the door. Human safety does come first to me. And, I don't have the authority to offer free services (other than a very limited Angel fund for a very specific subset of finance-limited cases), so if they can't pay ... I can't treat. Additionally, we have a company policy against treating certain species, so I have to turn those away.

So yes, I definitely will turn a very small number of cases away.

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[pinkpuppy9]

If you're implying that I would only treat the "well-behaved, friendly kind" - I think that's an unfair, and unsupported, accusation to level, as well as being a bit hyperbole-laced. I treat fractious animals as best I can just like any other animal, but there are limits, and I don't feel obligated - legally OR ethically - to treat every animal that walks through the door. Human safety does come first to me. And, I don't have the authority to offer free services (other than a very limited Angel fund for a very specific subset of finance-limited cases), so if they can't pay ... I can't treat. Additionally, we have a company policy against treating certain species, so I have to turn those away.

So yes, I definitely will turn a very small number of cases away.

I am with you 100% on this. I think this exact same conversation happened on a different thread not too long ago (maybe with the same person?). I also don't think a veterinarian is legally/morally obligated to treat any animal, especially one that presents a serious risk to staff. You are not legally/morally obligated to provide free services, either, so why would you be obligated to treat an animal that can maim your staff? Veterinarians are responsible for their staff's safety. You are considered a leader and should not lead your staff into a predictably bad situation if you can help it. I've been a 'pawn' in many appointments where the vet just didn't know when to stop trying (or didn't want to turn down revenue....) and someone would always get hurt or very close to it. I've been told that you are only legally obligated to treat an animal if it walks in as an emergency, and I'm sure that can still be trumped if the animal is going to kill someone. You have to protect yourself/staff first.

I said it in the other thread, but if an owner won't work with the vet when it comes to dealing with their unrestrainable animal, then they can try another clinic. I think it's pretty rare for an owner to refuse sedation, usually they know darn well that their dog/cat is pretty bad. This isn't "Oh, I just don't want to spend an extra 10 minutes restraining a stressed dog." This is "How close will my techs/assistants/myself come to losing a finger with this dog?" Muzzles fail. Rabies poles can kill the animal if a staff member gets too desperate with the pole (I've seen one tech get pretty close to killing an animal until the realized what she was doing). Brute strength won't always win out.

In my experience, some veterinarians do seem to have a hard time drawing lines. When to break up with clients, when to insist on chemical restraint, etc.

Edit:

Still others (more recent) refuse clients with dangerous animals, recommend euthanasia but no hints as to where to find a place that would be willing or able to care for an aggressive large patient and announce loudly that they don't care, it's not their problem.

This is highly variable dependent on the patient/situation, but I don't see anything initially wrong with recommending euthanasia of extremely aggressive animals. In some sense, I would almost expect a vet to be somehow obligated to at the very least discuss it with the owner and explain why this animal is just too dangerous, what can happen, etc.

As long as they have recorded that that recommended euthanizing, it really shouldn't be their problem if they don't want to deal with the animal. I worked for a vet who was subpoenaed in a dog bite lawsuit. This dog was a complete d*ck and has bitten before. My boss talked euthanasia with the owner, and the owner scoffed. Once the judge learned that the owner knowingly kept an animal with a lengthy bite/attack history, it was a done deal.

Also, I wouldn't feel comfortable sending this animal to another clinic. I don't want that blood on my hands, for lack of better phrasing. It's one thing to refer to a vet who is more skilled in a surgery or whatever, it's another to say "Here, you treat this a** of a dog, you guys never turn anyone down." If you're going to do it, you should at the very least personally call the clinic and explain what you are sending them yourself.

Edit again: I just realized that the previous conversation I was referring to is in fact this exact one. Blame in on the turkey.

 

[DVMDream]

I am with you 100% on this. I think this exact same conversation happened on a different thread not too long ago (maybe with the same person?). I also don't think a veterinarian is legally/morally obligated to treat any animal, especially one that presents a serious risk to staff. You are not legally/morally obligated to provide free services, either, so why would you be obligated to treat an animal that can maim your staff? Veterinarians are responsible for their staff's safety. You are considered a leader and should not lead your staff into a predictably bad situation if you can help it. I've been a 'pawn' in many appointments where the vet just didn't know when to stop trying (or didn't want to turn down revenue....) and someone would always get hurt or very close to it. I've been told that you are only legally obligated to treat an animal if it walks in as an emergency, and I'm sure that can still be trumped if the animal is going to kill someone. You have to protect yourself/staff first.

I said it in the other thread, but if an owner won't work with the vet when it comes to dealing with their unrestrainable animal, then they can try another clinic. I think it's pretty rare for an owner to refuse sedation, usually they know darn well that their dog/cat is pretty bad. This isn't "Oh, I just don't want to spend an extra 10 minutes restraining a stressed dog." This is "How close will my techs/assistants/myself come to losing a finger with this dog?" Muzzles fail. Rabies poles can kill the animal if a staff member gets too desperate with the pole (I've seen one tech get pretty close to killing an animal until the realized what she was doing). Brute strength won't always win out.

In my experience, some veterinarians do seem to have a hard time drawing lines. When to break up with clients, when to insist on chemical restraint, etc.

We had many owners refuse sedation for their horribly behaved pets (they don't want to $ for it). So many people don't realize just how bad their pet is. They get that fido bites but they don't realize he'll lunge at us, snap at us, spew piss/**** at us, alligator roll, etc. They don't see the danger to staff and the danger to their pet.

Having said that, we had no issue telling people sedation or we can't help you. We'd give them various options depending on what was going on, so they weren't necessarily leaving without any treatment, just nothing that required touching or handling the pet. And if handling the pet was necessary to treat, we'd tell them we can't treat without sedation.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

We had many owners refuse sedation for their horribly behaved pets (they don't want to $ for it). So many people don't realize just how bad their pet is. They get that fido bites but they don't realize he'll lunge at us, snap at us, spew piss/**** at us, alligator roll, etc. They don't see the danger to staff and the danger to their pet.

Having said that, we had no issue telling people sedation or we can't help you. We'd give them various options depending on what was going on, so they weren't necessarily leaving without any treatment, just nothing that required touching or handling the pet. And if handling the pet was necessary to treat, we'd tell them we can't treat without sedation.

Luckily I've only had a handful of those, but they always come with a client screaming about how inept we must be Meanwhile, the client is covered in claw marks and told you during the history that the cat attacks her face while she's sleeping...

I've just had too many close calls. Not even bites as much as breaking a nose or getting teeth knocked out. I'm a fairly strong girl and I can lay down some force if need be, but I'm not a superhero. I cannot throw down with a 150 pound dog for very long, especially when it's trying to alligator roll with me attached lol.

 

[battie]

One of the first vets I shadowed was bit by a dog about two years ago. She had been this dog's vet since it was four or five months old. At almost six, the dog but her in the face and sent her to the hospital. She had 70 stitches total and after a long recovery, went to only doing dogs under a year old at a different clinic.

If that's what can happen with an animal with no negative history, I don't see the point in taking the chance with an animal that is a known problem.

On the point of euthanizing dangerous animals, there are some too far gone to save. It happens in humans, in dogs, in cats, pretty much any vertebrate probably. There's a point where it negatively affects the quality of life of the pet that isn't reversible.

 

[dyachei]

There's a lady here that doesn't believe in euthanizing dogs for any reason. And runs her own "rescue". well she rescued a pit bull that is VERY dog aggressive. And the dog broke out of a locked kennel (bent the cage) and locked faces with another dog. It took us a while to get them separated and since then the dog is also aggressive to people. And it's the spontaneous kind of aggressive that you can't read. After a few incidents, we recommended euthanasia. She can't afford vet treatment much less a behaviorist. And this dog is a danger to any family that might adopt it. But she was so offended when we recommended that. Because euthanasia is evil....

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

Definitely agree that there are aggressive dogs that the only humane course is euthanasia. I had tried to point out that it isn't in anyone's interest for a vet to reccommend euthanasia but not be willing to either put the dog down or refer to someone with the capacity to do so. I worked with a vet that refused to work with an aggressive German Shepherd, told the owners it needed euthanized, and told them no vet should work with them for raising such a monster. The owners had been seeking behavior modification for over a year, were seeing this vet as 3rd referral for chemical treatment, brought the dog only when necessary and under heavy restraint (physical and chemical) with a muzzle and basket muzzle... they did everything they could and got properly trained in it's use...

Anyway, VERY bad dog, they wanted to pursue every alternative before euthanasia, but agreed it was time and then had a vet tell them that nobody would perform that service short of a trank gun sedation. Our other vet ended up performing the service but, for 48 hours these people were told they were obligated to euthanize a dog that nobody would touch. They had begun having nightmares about having to hire police or a hunter to come shoot the dog.

Again, an extreme, but part of why I was trying to advocate for knowing what you are capable of and researching who has what capabilities around you. Maybe you look once you run into a problem, that's fine, but sending a client out the door with an aggressive dog and no solution sounds like a recipe for disaster.

 

[dyachei]

So you worked in an office with a vet who didn't want to do things and keep using that to say that things should or shouldn't happen because you think it happens like that?

This just seems to be a theme

 

[hazelmoo]

It makes me so sad when people refuse euthanasia to animals who need it, especially when they are putting their family at risk because of it...

We have a client who owns a no-kill rescue in town. The place is a dump, the animals live outside in small runs, and there are about 20 dogs who are too aggressive to be adopted out so they are "permanent residents" of the rescue. Instead of spending space and money on dogs who have a chance at being adopted out to a loving family, they spend it on dogs who will never have a home because of their aggression. They have one dog who they've had for over 8 years. They brought her in for an exam because she had a hurt tail. Well, this dog's tail was exposed to the bone and looked like it had been that way for a while. Not only that, but this dog couldn't stand up and walk because of her severe arthritis, and she was in heart failure with a softball sized heart. Even after multiple doctors highly recommending euthanasia, they elected to do surgery to amputate the tail, but refused other meds because she was too aggressive to give them too. It just blew my mind that they would go through such lengths to just keep this dog alive in such horrendous condition and spend $500+ on surgery when they could use that money to actually help other animals in need

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

So you worked in an office with a vet who didn't want to do things and keep using that to say that things should or shouldn't happen because you think it happens like that?

This just seems to be a theme

Not 100% sure what the question is.
I've worked at a couple different vet clinics with many different vets and different theories on best practices in regards to patients. I might not be explaining myself well (I am holding conversation in real life at the same time as typing), but what I am trying to get across is just what I have seen and how it altered my views on the subject.

The vet who refused to euthanize the German Shepard was a former PETA member who still occasionally liked to go on rants and lecture her clients until they cried when she disagreed with them. The practice owner hunted and held almost diametrically different views on pet ownership and practical animal care. She was the one who said first it was wrong to send the people out the door with no options and basically a loaded gun for a dog. The first vet had given them nothing but a lecture as to what horrible people they were and kinda said she hoped their dog killed them first. The second, reached out and asked if she could work with them to safely put the dog down and worked hard to respect the memory of the sweet puppy it once was. Yes, I prefer one approach over the other.

The vet who ignored the safety and needs of his techs and would forget patients on the surgery table, likely once was a great surgeon like he claimed, but he was very afraid of it by the time I met him. I disagreed with many, many things that he thought were "old school, right way to do things" not just because I had seen better, but because the literature and research also said his ways were wrong. He reccommended euthanasia on diabetic cats because they were "too complicated and expensive to treat." This is with no glucose curve, just a single high value. Yet a valuable hunting dog that wanted to eat a techs face off... how dare that tech (not me) question how the doctor wanted to make the approach (no restraint, just use the tech as distraction at the dogs face while the doc stayed near the door to examine from behind...) because it was a "high value client." Even though this client never paid for anything because he was a buddy. The place was going broke, associate doctors never stayed more than a few months because they spotted the problems... I left. I improved what I could, and moved on.

I've worked other places. I've seen things I would model myself after and things I would hope to never do. Again, just trying to explain why I have the opinion I do.

My opinion boils down to helping the animal and owner, if possible, is the right thing to do. Kicking them out with no help, or even making it worse by instilling a sense of hopelessness, and not offering any guidance or hint of direction, in my opinion, is wrong. Note: in my opinion, based on my experiences, not yours, and yes, using some extremes to demonstrate how those opinions were formed.

 

[LetItSnow]

My opinion boils down to helping the animal and owner, if possible, is the right thing to do. Kicking them out with no help, or even making it worse by instilling a sense of hopelessness, and not offering any guidance or hint of direction, in my opinion, is wrong. Note: in my opinion, based on my experiences, not yours, and yes, using some extremes to demonstrate how those opinions were formed.

Sometimes there is no help you can give. I just think you're being slightly too idealistic about things.

We had a lady call yesterday with a dog with an ear wound that sounded like it needed repair. She couldn't afford our care. Is it my responsibility to research which local vets are open the day after Thanksgiving so that I can meet your criteria of not turning her away with no assistance?

I don't think so. I don't have time to do research to help every last owner with every last conceivable problem. I don't, in this case, have time to call every last local vet clinic to find out which ones are open today and which ones aren't. I'd have to do it in my off time, and, well. I'd rather spend that off time not working.

Part of being an owner is that YOU take responsibility for YOUR pet. It's the OWNER'S job to do that kind of research, not mine. I provide a certain service, at a certain cost, for a certain subset of species (namely, companion animal mammal). I don't work outside those limits, therefore I'm not obligated in any way to see animals outside those limits, and I sure don't have time to research the capabilities of every last vet in the area.

Obviously I went into this field to help owners and their pets. I take a little offense at the snarky comment (not yours) about only treating the happy well-behaved ones. I think that was over the top.

 

[Minnerbelle]

If we all go down the road of talking about wrong ways to practice based on anecdotal evidence of bad vets, we could all go on forever and ever.

There are a lot of bad vets out there who do a lot of questionable things. That doesn't mean their practices are acceptable or that more than small minority of vets do the same. It's just not conducive to go on a soap box about how the profession as a whole should or should not approach certain situations based on a few bad apples you've come across. That comes off as rather condescending, especially to those who are out in practice and would NEVER do the things you've seen your ****ty doc do.

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

In some places, the local practices do send newsletters to each other during the holidays so everybody knows who is open. They also let other practices know, hey, we have a bird specialist, hey, we're set up for aggressive cats or particularly large dogs...

I know this isn't always the case. I'm not saying you should know everything, but in this area, if a dog comes to your practice with a pyometra and needs emergency surgery but the owner only has a few hundred bucks and for you to do the surgery would cost $1-2000, you have an option. You can send them out the door and say good luck coming up with funding before your dog dies (some places do opt for this route and hope the person can talk their friends into paying) or you could send your client to the low cost spay/Neuter clinic. They send fliers, emails, and phone calls to let vets know that they have a fund and the resources specifically for helping those clients.

For the aggressive euthanasia, that I was specifically addressing, same option. You can berate the client for owning the dog, tell them to put the dog down, tell them you won't do it and no clinic nearby will but the dog is reaching a point where it will hurt or kill someone, and legally they are now screwed because you have written this on their record and then fire the client or you can work with the client to help them find a place that can handle it. This does only work for willing compliant clients I am aware. And maybe you charge a consult fee so that you don't feel like you are providing services for nothing, but...

all I was trying to say is if it is within your power to help at all, why would you not? IN MY OPINION, I think that is our job. I am a tech, not a doctor. Perhaps that does mean I am not allowed an opinion on the PRE-VET FORUM, but I am within the vet med field, have seen multiple cases this directly (the aggressive euthanasia) applied to and thought I would give my opinion.

I am sorry if that rubbed you the wrong way on a less related subject. The ear infection will not die. It is not emergent. Telling them to wait for the end of the holiday will be ok. Telling the emergency client to f off so you can celebrate your holiday is likely less ok. (Depending on the circumstances.)

I wanted to make it clear that I'm not trying to be an ass. I doubt I succeeded for those that want to hear a young thing spouting ill conceived notions of what vet med is really like... I am not saying any of the vets on here are wrong in their way of practicing or that your circumstances will allow you the luxury of my ideal world. You do what you think is best, either for you, for the animal, or for the client. My ideal is all 3, but I am aware the world sucks and you have to prioritize. My ideal, my opinion, not a criticism.

 

[LetItSnow]

I am sorry if that rubbed you the wrong way on a less related subject. The ear infection will not die. It is not emergent. Telling them to wait for the end of the holiday will be ok. Telling the emergency client to f off so you can celebrate your holiday is likely less ok. (Depending on the circumstances.)

I wanted to make it clear that I'm not trying to be an ass.

This is meant as feedback.

If you are not trying to be an ass, then don't say things like "telling the emergency client to f off so you can celebrate your holiday is likely less ok."

I'm not aware that I suggested telling a client to "f off" .... ever. I didn't see anyone else here suggest doing that, either. Even if I can't help a client, I try to remain professional in my communication with them. And if you're criticizing me because I would like to spend my off time doing non-work activities .... well .... have fun being in practice 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Lemme know how that goes for you.

My point is simply that I think you're being overly idealistic. It is not possible to help every client every time. It just isn't. And I don't have the time to research which clinics are open what hours on which days, and which ones have ultrasound - and skill - to do that abdominal scan the patient needs, and which ones are comfortable taking emergent cases because they came in 5 minutes before we close (I am not allowed to stay open late), and which ones take new clients on emergency vs which ones don't, and which ones see birds, and which ones see reptiles, and which ones see other exotics, and which ones carry this particular medicine that your patient may need .... and then expand that by about a 4-hr driving distance radius (because that's about how far out I'll get calls from) .....

It's too much. Your expectations are just too much, *in my opinion*.

My job is to evaluate a patient and make a recommendation about diagnostics and therapy. It's an OWNER'S job to take that information and make a decision. And if part of my evaluation and recommendation is "I don't see this type of patient because of <insert reason here>," then it's the owner's job to find a doctor that will. It is not my job. If I happen to know of someone, then yes, obviously, I will convey that information to the owner. But I am under no obligation to see each and every patient that wants to be seen. Period. And likewise, I'm under no obligation to FIND care for them. That is an owner's responsibility that they (should) assume when they take ownership of an animal.

 

[DVMDream]

In some places, the local practices do send newsletters to each other during the holidays so everybody knows who is open. They also let other practices know, hey, we have a bird specialist, hey, we're set up for aggressive cats or particularly large dogs...

I know this isn't always the case. I'm not saying you should know everything, but in this area, if a dog comes to your practice with a pyometra and needs emergency surgery but the owner only has a few hundred bucks and for you to do the surgery would cost $1-2000, you have an option. You can send them out the door and say good luck coming up with funding before your dog dies (some places do opt for this route and hope the person can talk their friends into paying) or you could send your client to the low cost spay/Neuter clinic. They send fliers, emails, and phone calls to let vets know that they have a fund and the resources specifically for helping those clients.

For the aggressive euthanasia, that I was specifically addressing, same option. You can berate the client for owning the dog, tell them to put the dog down, tell them you won't do it and no clinic nearby will but the dog is reaching a point where it will hurt or kill someone, and legally they are now screwed because you have written this on their record and then fire the client or you can work with the client to help them find a place that can handle it. This does only work for willing compliant clients I am aware. And maybe you charge a consult fee so that you don't feel like you are providing services for nothing, but...

all I was trying to say is if it is within your power to help at all, why would you not? IN MY OPINION, I think that is our job. I am a tech, not a doctor. Perhaps that does mean I am not allowed an opinion on the PRE-VET FORUM, but I am within the vet med field, have seen multiple cases this directly (the aggressive euthanasia) applied to and thought I would give my opinion.

I am sorry if that rubbed you the wrong way on a less related subject. The ear infection will not die. It is not emergent. Telling them to wait for the end of the holiday will be ok. Telling the emergency client to f off so you can celebrate your holiday is likely less ok. (Depending on the circumstances.)

I wanted to make it clear that I'm not trying to be an ass. I doubt I succeeded for those that want to hear a young thing spouting ill conceived notions of what vet med is really like... I am not saying any of the vets on here are wrong in their way of practicing or that your circumstances will allow you the luxury of my ideal world. You do what you think is best, either for you, for the animal, or for the client. My ideal is all 3, but I am aware the world sucks and you have to prioritize. My ideal, my opinion, not a criticism.

But you have been criticizing.

And your scenarios aren't playing out quite accurately either. The pyometra needs emergency surgery with supportive care, not shuttled off to a low cost spay/neuter clinic IF there is even one in the area you are working in. I have in the 7 years I worked in the veterinary field prior to attending vet school NEVER received any fliers from any other clinics in the area about when they are open and the services they provide. No vet would tell the dog with the pyo "adios, good luck" unless they are a "bad vet" which is what we are saying, those are few and far between. Just because you have seen it, doesn't mean that it is happening all over the place and you definitely should not be basing your opinion off of that one bad experience. Most vets will provide options to that client, including euthanasia. If the client chooses to leave and attempt to find a cheaper option, that is on them, but is not my responsibility. I have offered you my services, their costs and other options, if you want to attempt to "shop around" in an emergency, that is your choice.

And again, rarely, does any vet act as the one did in your scenario. And to base your opinion on what all vets should do because of that one experience isn't wise. It, again, isn't the vets responsibility to find a place that will work with the client. Having stated that, I would never deny a euth on an aggressive dog. I can make that work. I know of ways to handle an aggressive dog to get a sedative in it and eutahnize it, if that is the decision a client has come to. I can also offer behavior consults. But I am not going to be able to offer the client a clinic that will work with the dog in the way the clients wants the dog to be exactly worked with. I know that isn't what you were stating, but your own experience is so damn rare, I can't honestly understand where you would think people are denying euth for aggressive dogs and then bad mouthing them.


You can't possibly help everyone. And some of the requests clients come up with are ridiculous. All you can do is provide what services you have and referral to a specialist, if needed. But it is no vets job to know what ABC veterinary clinic down the road does. Or that XYZ vet is open for 3 hours on Thanksgiving day. Or whatever. You would spend so much time trying to get the client every single thing they need that you would not have a life outside of work.


And as far as the "emergency client to f off so you can celebrate your holiday". Sorry, but most GP's aren't open on the holiday. I plan to work GP, I won't be there. We are physically closed. There are emergency clinics around... they are free to use them. I am allowed to celebrate a holiday or a day off without having to deal with any clients at all. That is not telling them to "f off", that is a measure to keep my own sanity and to spend time to myself away from work. Veterinarians are allowed days off and do not need to be at every beckoning call of their clients.

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

I don't think any of you are doing that! Again, extreme examples to illustrate the formation of my opinions. You need to live a life. You are human. My opinion is that you should do your best by you, your client and the animal. In you, I include your staff, your hospital.

The super rare example of the pyo is a common occurrence here because vets see the spay / neuter clinic as competition. They do often tell the client euthanasia or find the cash as options. Though why they want to keep the client that can't afford their services is beyond me. Again, I can only speak from my experiences.

I have tried to explain in apparently too much detail. It is not coming across clearly that I think you do what you can. My opinion of customer service is colored by work outside vet med and likely what I see as possible is not as common anymore. I hope I can work in an area where clinics can work together for the community again rather than in the competition I think you are describing. But I may be misreading you as much as you are misreading me.

 

[LetItSnow]

I don't think any of you are doing that! Again, extreme examples to illustrate the formation of my opinions. You need to live a life. You are human. My opinion is that you should do your best by you, your client and the animal. In you, I include your staff, your hospital.

The super rare example of the pyo is a common occurrence here because vets see the spay / neuter clinic as competition. They do often tell the client euthanasia or find the cash as options. Though why they want to keep the client that can't afford their services is beyond me. Again, I can only speak from my experiences.

I have tried to explain in apparently too much detail. It is not coming across clearly that I think you do what you can. My opinion of customer service is colored by work outside vet med and likely what I see as possible is not as common anymore. I hope I can work in an area where clinics can work together for the community again rather than in the competition I think you are describing. But I may be misreading you as much as you are misreading me.

That's fair. And it's not like we don't TRY to help people. Ironically, I came in tonight to find a new stickie note in our list of local area vets with "Will see birds" - so yes, we TRY to offer help where we can.

I just can't stomach the implication that I have some <obligation> to treat any and all animals that come through the door. That's never gonna happen. And I agree with your general point that we should try to do the best we can by our patients and clients. Totally agree.

I will say that I think it was unfair of you to take my comment about Thanksgiving and turn it into "telling the emergency client to f off so you can celebrate your holiday." I don't think that's me "misreading" you. I would never tell a client to "f off" regardless of the reason. Even though we've all probably thought it at one point or another.

 

[battie]

Just spent some time reading the SPI forum while waiting for my round and I am so disappointed in my generation to a certain extent. . Granted, have to keep that forum in context, but still.

 

[TotesMahGoats]

By telling clients that there are cheaper options for emergency surgeries (pyo, for example), is the profession devaluing it's own services to owners? Like, I can charge you 1,000-2,000 to do it, or you can go down the road to Joe's Clinic and get it done for 400. The client just sees the final price tag, and then goes around saying how vet's over-charge and are making a killing. No one explains to him (nor do I think the general public would truly understand if you did) what the differences are, other than his dog is spayed and how much it cost. I don't think we're doing anyone any favors by showing clients cheap options for surgeries or procedures that shouldn't be cheap in the first place. Yes, the client may not be able to afford it--then he should have gotten his dog spayed in the first place, for a much cheaper price. While I understand that not everyone can afford things, that doesn't mean we need to make it cheaper.

 

[PrincessButterCup]

I've been working all break, and I was so excited to have the whole weekend off. Woke up to a text this morning asking me if I can do the pm shift tonight. NO NO NO I DON'T WANT TO.

 

[battie]

I've been working all break, and I was so excited to have the whole weekend off. Woke up to a text this morning asking me if I can do the pm shift tonight. NO NO NO I DON'T WANT TO.

Straight up say no. You're not obligated to take it, right?

 

[orca2011]

By telling clients that there are cheaper options for emergency surgeries (pyo, for example), is the profession devaluing it's own services to owners? Like, I can charge you 1,000-2,000 to do it, or you can go down the road to Joe's Clinic and get it done for 400. The client just sees the final price tag, and then goes around saying how vet's over-charge and are making a killing. No one explains to him (nor do I think the general public would truly understand if you did) what the differences are, other than his dog is spayed and how much it cost. I don't think we're doing anyone any favors by showing clients cheap options for surgeries or procedures that shouldn't be cheap in the first place. Yes, the client may not be able to afford it--then he should have gotten his dog spayed in the first place, for a much cheaper price. While I understand that not everyone can afford things, that doesn't mean we need to make it cheaper.

I agree and disagree with aspect on this especially since a lot of the costs are due to differences in monitoring, pre-op BW and such. If the owner can afford the $400 surgery and it gives the dog a chance to live, why shouldn't they be given that option vs the $2000 option. Most of the vets I've worked for who have done things cheaper than at a hospital with a boarded surgeon flat out say "hey, we charge this much because we have this type of monitoring vs xyz monitoring over there, and we don't hospitalize overnight, or will only require a basic pre-op panel vs a full blown cbc/chem/ua for surgery." I've worked with a vet who also offered to do a procedure she'd never done before to give the dog (in this case a like 5 month old puppy) a chance to live versus facing euthanasia because the owner's couldn't afford going to the ES hospital for an abdominal explore + enterotomy.

I guess my point is that there needs a balance between lower cost services and the more expensive service and there does need to be client education on the differences between the types of service they are receiving.

 

[dyachei]

I agree and disagree with aspect on this especially since a lot of the costs are due to differences in monitoring, pre-op BW and such. If the owner can afford the $400 surgery and it gives the dog a chance to live, why shouldn't they be given that option vs the $2000 option. Most of the vets I've worked for who have done things cheaper than at a hospital with a boarded surgeon flat out say "hey, we charge this much because we have this type of monitoring vs xyz monitoring over there, and we don't hospitalize overnight, or will only require a basic pre-op panel vs a full blown cbc/chem/ua for surgery." I've worked with a vet who also offered to do a procedure she'd never done before to give the dog (in this case a like 5 month old puppy) a chance to live versus facing euthanasia because the owner's couldn't afford going to the ES hospital for an abdominal explore + enterotomy.

I guess my point is that there needs a balance between lower cost services and the more expensive service and there does need to be client education on the differences between the types of service they are receiving.

I always tell clients why we charge what we charge. And that there are other options but they may not do those things.

That being said, I don't think I would refer for an emergency surgery (like a pyo) to a low cost place.

 

[WildZoo]

Major cluster**** going on at work exacerbated by a very inaccurate Facebook post thats gaining steam in the area.. Sigh.

 

[battie]

Major cluster**** going on at work exacerbated by a very inaccurate Facebook post thats gaining steam in the area.. Sigh.

Negative social media about your work?

 

[WildZoo]

Negative social media about your work?

A mistake was made by a tech at my hospital, client's daughter made a post about it on fb that we didn't care, she had to pay all this money, never to come to our hospital, etc etc when in actuality we've comped her mom for all follow up care and have done everything we can to fix the situation. Her mom is being a reasonable human. We're a new hospital so it's just extra hard since we're still working on bringing in clients.

We actually had someone cancel their appointment today because they saw the post

 

[battie]

A mistake was made by a tech at my hospital, client's daughter made a post about it on fb that we didn't care, she had to pay all this money, never to come to our hospital, etc etc when in actuality we've comped her mom for all follow up care and have done everything we can to fix the situation. Her mom is being a reasonable human. We're a new hospital so it's just extra hard since we're still working on bringing in clients.

We actually had someone cancel their appointment today because they saw the post

Client needs to slap her daughter. . Lying about a business is unacceptable to me.

 

[cowgirla]

Work Christmas party was supposed to be the end of December. I'm hosting.

Thanks to a last minute scheduling change, the party is now next weekend. Still at my house. For 20+ people. FML I have so much decorating and cleaning to do.

 

[rockatiel]

Hope everyone had an enjoyable thanksgiving. I spent mine with 3 family members in the ER at the same time and lots of family secrets coming out and a relative cutting me off permanently. I also found that the people who say they are there for me probably aren't really there for me. It was hype can't wait to take finals next week!!

 

[Gwenevre]

Hope everyone had an enjoyable thanksgiving. I spent mine with 3 family members in the ER at the same time and lots of family secrets coming out and a relative cutting me off permanently. I also found that the people who say they are there for me probably aren't really there for me. It was hype can't wait to take finals next week!!

-hugs-

Half of my family isn't talking to one another, so instead of the big family Thanksgiving, my immediate family came to my town and we had a hotel buffet. And it's possible that my mom and sister will be in Florida for Christmas.

 

[rockatiel]

-hugs-

Half of my family isn't talking to one another, so instead of the big family Thanksgiving, my immediate family came to my town and we had a hotel buffet. And it's possible that my mom and sister will be in Florida for Christmas.

Thank you!
We didn't plan on having a huge dinner anyways this year, so it's not like any plans were ruined. We ended up going to eat at 24 hour diner at 10 PM when everyone was out of the hospital lol. Everyone is also ok. It was a scary 24 hours and I'm glad it's over and we're all accounted for.

 

[battie]

Hope everyone had an enjoyable thanksgiving. I spent mine with 3 family members in the ER at the same time and lots of family secrets coming out and a relative cutting me off permanently. I also found that the people who say they are there for me probably aren't really there for me. It was hype can't wait to take finals next week!!

Holy crap!! Glad to hear everyone is okay on the health front!

 

[Shreddr22]

Hope everyone had an enjoyable thanksgiving. I spent mine with 3 family members in the ER at the same time and lots of family secrets coming out and a relative cutting me off permanently. I also found that the people who say they are there for me probably aren't really there for me. It was hype can't wait to take finals next week!!

Don't worry, everyone has family stuff. I stayed home and cooked with the kids (animals) then went to do the pm treatment shift at work, then came back and ate. I stayed far far away from my in-law family and watched Netflix all day, I don't even care that they wondered where I was, they should know why, lol.

 

[Shreddr22]

My rant...someone chopped off the leg of a rooster today and tossed it out of a truck onto the road. It must have been a fighting cock that lost, we found him because someone saw the whole thing go down and it happened to be right down the road from the spay neuter clinic I was working at. Currently Mr Rooster has received medication and fluids, and we are hoping for recovery! It's a rant because after years of working with animals things still amaze me.

 

[LetItSnow]

What did I do to piss off the universe?

7 hospitalized patients - 5 of which I still haven't had time to write exams and overnight instructions on, even though overnight is basically, uh, over.

2 foreign body surgeries.

1 hemoab/splenectomy.

The usual mix of outpatient stuff.

Somebody shoot me. Or bring me caffeine. And a beer. And then shoot me.

 

[that redhead]

What did I do to piss off the universe?

7 hospitalized patients - 5 of which I still haven't had time to write exams and overnight instructions on, even though overnight is basically, uh, over.

2 foreign body surgeries.

1 hemoab/splenectomy.

The usual mix of outpatient stuff.

Somebody shoot me. Or bring me caffeine. And a beer. And then shoot me.

JFC...good luck with all of that

 

[LetItSnow]

JFC...good luck with all of that

You know what's better? My shift ended 2 hours ago, and I'm sitting here waiting for a tech to free up so I can another FB to surgery. We were just about to roll in when a pericardial effusion walked in and the day shift doc had to steal my tech to deal with that tap.

.... sigh.

(Sorry for the whining. Just a long night.)

 

[NStarz]

I legit think I failed the NAVLE. Like a 25%. VetPrep didn't help at all and I had to randomly guess on most of the test (could barely narrow down any answer choices). I really wish we got our scores back right away. And I can't apply to my 1st choice internship if I didn't pass this time around. I'm hoping this is just a case of "everything thinks they've failed afterwards" but I'm not so sure...

 

[DVMDream]

I legit think I failed the NAVLE. Like a 25%. VetPrep didn't help at all and I had to randomly guess on most of the test (could barely narrow down any answer choices). I really wish we got our scores back right away. And I can't apply to my 1st choice internship if I didn't pass this time around. I'm hoping this is just a case of "everything thinks they've failed afterwards" but I'm not so sure...

I feel exactly this way. I was seriously guessing on quite a bit of that exam and I kept running out of time. So, I would have 10 minutes to answer the last 15-20 questions, so I had to just quickly skim and click in order to get some answer in....

Ugh, I really hope we are both wrong and that we both passed. But I feel quite horrible after that exam.

 

[orca2011]

I legit think I failed the NAVLE. Like a 25%. VetPrep didn't help at all and I had to randomly guess on most of the test (could barely narrow down any answer choices). I really wish we got our scores back right away. And I can't apply to my 1st choice internship if I didn't pass this time around. I'm hoping this is just a case of "everything thinks they've failed afterwards" but I'm not so sure...

I feel exactly this way. I was seriously guessing on quite a bit of that exam and I kept running out of time. So, I would have 10 minutes to answer the last 15-20 questions, so I had to just quickly skim and click in order to get some answer in....

Ugh, I really hope we are both wrong and that we both passed. But I feel quite horrible after that exam.

Just what I want to hear when I have the exam in 48 hours.

 

[jmo1012]

I think the general consensus is that if you walked away thinking you didn't fail, something was very wrong haha. Also, I know a few people who failed but passed in April and were still able to do great internships or get great jobs. Its not a life ender, even though it can feel that way. Try not to think about it while you wait, there's nothing you can do to change your score in the mean time remember, you still graduate and become a veterinarian whether you pass the first time or not

 

[DVMDream]

I think the general consensus is that if you walked away thinking you didn't fail, something was very wrong haha. Also, I know a few people who failed but passed in April and were still able to do great internships or get great jobs. Its not a life ender, even though it can feel that way. Try not to think about it while you wait, there's nothing you can do to change your score in the mean time remember, you still graduate and become a veterinarian whether you pass the first time or not

I am already content with it isn't a big deal if I have to take it again... I now know what I need to do differently should that occur (hopefully it won't).

I am just more annoyed with the cost of the stupid thing..... and if I will be able to come up with the money for it.

But, I am getting ahead of things with thinking of that... for now, I am going to relax and let my brain turn into mush until we get results.

 

[orca2011]

I am already content with it isn't a big deal if I have to take it again... I now know what I need to do differently should that occur (hopefully it won't).

I am just more annoyed with the cost of the stupid thing..... and if I will be able to come up with the money for it.

But, I am getting ahead of things with thinking of that... for now, I am going to relax and let my brain turn into mush until we get results.

This is actually more of my concern as well. I'll be bummed if I fail, but like you said, I'll know what I need to do to pass. It's the cost factor that's annoying. Plus, I might end up just being shy of the 70% you need to get the free VetPrep.

 

[DVMDream]

This is actually more of my concern as well. I'll be bummed if I fail, but like you said, I'll know what I need to do to pass. It's the cost factor that's annoying. Plus, I might end up just being shy of the 70% you need to get the free VetPrep.

Crap, is it 70%?

Damn it! I thought it was 80-something percent...

I made it to 67%...

Oh well, I don't plan on using vetprep the second time, if I end up needing to retake. I plan on reviewing weak points and then using the exams off the NBVME website... will be cheaper than doing vetprep again.

But, again, thinking way ahead... hopefully I am not right and I won't need to retake the exam. Hopefully we will all pass on the first time and this is all just silly talk.

 

[orca2011]

Crap, is it 70%?

Damn it! I thought it was 80-something percent...

I made it to 67%...

Oh well, I don't plan on using vetprep the second time, if I end up needing to retake. I plan on reviewing weak points and then using the exams off the NBVME website... will be cheaper than doing vetprep again.

But, again, thinking way ahead... hopefully I am not right and I won't need to retake the exam. Hopefully we will all pass on the first time and this is all just silly talk.

Maybe it is 80%...I can't remember now.

 

[NStarz]

It's 80%. The practice tests on the NBVME site said I would pass with a pretty good margin (took three of them...got a higher score each time I took them.). I am just super hopeful those were actually predictive of my real score. Some people said they were so I'm crossing my fingers. All I know is that test was HARD. (Though, to be fair, the hardest test on the NBVME site that I took, which I thought was difficult as well, I did the best on, presumably because it was so difficult. I'm hoping it'll be the same for the NAVLE...)

 

[DVMDream]

It's 80%. The practice tests on the NBVME site said I would pass with a pretty good margin (took three of them...got a higher score each time I took them.). I am just super hopeful those were actually predictive of my real score. Some people said they were so I'm crossing my fingers. All I know is that test was HARD. (Though, to be fair, the hardest test on the NBVME site that I took, which I thought was difficult as well, I did the best on, presumably because it was so difficult. I'm hoping it'll be the same for the NAVLE...)

Which version did you think was the most difficult?

I only took version 4. I thought it was fairly difficult going through it (not near as much as the actual NAVLE) but that stated I would pass just fine... I just hope it is right.

 

[DVMDream]

Also, I blame @WildZoo and @Gwenevre because I keep feeling like I need to add "stories" to the end of my posts not even in the ww game thread...

 

[NStarz]

Which version did you think was the most difficult?

I only took version 4. I thought it was fairly difficult going through it (not near as much as the actual NAVLE) but that stated I would pass just fine... I just hope it is right.

3 for sure. I took 4 before 3 and scored better on 3 even though I thought it was loads more difficult.

 

[WildZoo]

Also, I blame @WildZoo and @Gwenevre because I keep feeling like I need to add "stories" to the end of my posts not even in the ww game thread...

Shthoreees