WildZenge Presents: Horizon Zero DaWWn

[supershorty]

Moral of the story: stick to the tot!Lawpy approach by yeeting shorty

Lawpy pls shorty's retired

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[Crayola227]

Hahahaha I get to say I told you so!

About PMs.

Also, I did bring up the notion that maybe Shorty was a wolf and shot genny to pretend to be a village vig, I know I did. I can find the post if I must.

AM shut me down when I went down this line of thinking...

And I devoted who to block between AM and Shorty, meaning I didn't fully clear her.

And I did note this was the first game Shorty didn't sound different to me - should have been the first clue she was wolfing.

But to be fair, I noted the difficulty in finding such a deep wolf.

Good game guys!

 

[Lawpy]

Lawpy pls shorty's retired

No pls you need to manator pls

 

[supershorty]

Hahahaha I get to say I told you so!

About PMs.

Also, I did bring up the notion that maybe Shorty was a wolf and shot genny to pretend to be a village vig, I know I did. I can find the post if I must.

AM shut me down when I went down this line of thinking...

And I devoted who to block between AM and Shorty, meaning I didn't fully clear her.

And I did note this was the first game Shorty didn't sound different to me - should have been the first clue she was wolfing.

But to be fair, I noted the difficulty in finding such a deep wolf.

Good game guys!

Cray pls it wasn't deep wolfing, I wasn't part of the pack and didn't know who they were.

 

[WildZoo]

I just realized you were going to have the watcher see me kill cubs N1. What the heck, mel!??!

Oh my god I'm choking

It wouldn't have worked because the machines couldn't act on cubs anyway, but what an oversight

Edit: I didn't enter all those actions in the spreadsheet because AM had already canceled night and I was being lazy, so I didn't catch that either lol

 

[WildZoo]

And I devoted who to block between AM and Shorty, meaning I didn't fully clear her.

And then you PM'd shorty and decided to block no one

 

[Dinashadow]

@supershorty *ahem*

 

[supershorty]

View attachment 344369

@supershorty *ahem*

*hands Dina a cough drop*

 

[Lawpy]

*hands Dina a cough drop*

Dina pls no!

 

[Dinashadow]

*hands Dina a cough drop*

shorty pls it didn't work

 

[supershorty]

shorty pls it didn't work

*hands Dina a new, unopened bag of cough drops*

 

[kaydubs]

Omg it was so fun to watch this from the sidelines. Well done, all!

 

[samac]

Hahahaha I get to say I told you so!

About PMs.

Also, I did bring up the notion that maybe Shorty was a wolf and shot genny to pretend to be a village vig, I know I did. I can find the post if I must.

AM shut me down when I went down this line of thinking...

And I devoted who to block between AM and Shorty, meaning I didn't fully clear her.

And I did note this was the first game Shorty didn't sound different to me - should have been the first clue she was wolfing.

But to be fair, I noted the difficulty in finding such a deep wolf.

Good game guys!

She wasn’t a deep wolf though, her wincon was independent from the main pack.

 

[Melchizedek]

I just realized you were going to have the watcher see me kill cubs N1. What the heck, mel!??!

Lol yeah I was only paying 2/3rds attention haha

 

[Melchizedek]

I just realized you were going to have the watcher see me kill cubs N1. What the heck, mel!??!

It would have been fine, Cuba’s ability would have just deactivated the watcher 🤣

 

[supershorty]

This is the first game in a long while where I have had no night actions done to me for the entire game.
And I didn't die early! Although Zenge threatened me with the mod lightning for giving him **** about tallies.

 

[Crayola227]

She wasn’t a deep wolf though, her wincon was independent from the main pack.

I still tried to bring up sus on her...

I don't trust players with kill powers.

I can't fight the whole village. I didn't have control of that end game.

 

[TelemarketingEnigma]

This is the first game in a long while where I have had no night actions done to me for the entire game.
And I didn't die early! Although Zenge threatened me with the mod lightning for giving him **** about tallies.

I seriously thought about tracking you at one point and I will regret it forever

 

[WildZoo]

I seriously thought about tracking you at one point and I will regret it forever

Well, she killed you before the point where you would have tracked her doing anything she didn't tell everyone she did anyway lol

 

[supershorty]

I seriously thought about tracking you at one point and I will regret it forever

If it had been on an odd night, you would have been bored.

 

[supershorty]

Well, she killed you before the point where you would have tracked her doing anything she didn't tell everyone she did anyway lol

And I told everyone about that too!

 

[alleycat03]

This is the first game in a long while where I have had no night actions done to me for the entire game.
And I didn't die early! Although Zenge threatened me with the mod lightning for giving him **** about tallies.

I feel like this doesn’t count though because I used my PM power to talk to you before I died my early death

 

[alleycat03]

And I told everyone about that too!

📝 how to be a successful wolf:
Tell everyone who I have killed✍️✍️✍️

 

[TelemarketingEnigma]

📝 how to be a successful wolf:
Tell everyone who I have killed✍️✍️✍️

honestly though, it was pretty ****ing brilliant

@supershorty, was the genny kill intentional for fake vig cover or just lucky? I know you were wolf reading her

 

[WildZoo]

I feel like this doesn’t count though because I used my PM power to talk to you before I died my early death

Wasn't technically a night action since we let you open it d1!

 

[supershorty]

I feel like this doesn’t count though because I used my PM power to talk to you before I died my early death

Oh yeah, I forgot about that because we only actually PMed during the day.

honestly though, it was pretty ****ing brilliant

@supershorty, was the genny kill intentional for fake vig cover or just lucky? I know you were wolf reading her

It was lucky in that I was wolf reading her on the scantest of reasons, but I killed her with the intention of claiming vig if she flipped wolf.

 

[Crayola227]

And then you PM'd shorty and decided to block no one

To be fair, that had less to do with PM pocketing and more to do with the fact I had been committed to the AM plan, and needed to be sure the block wouldn't interfere with any passive abilities related to the plan.

When I got to the PM and learned the "secret" and the mechanics assumptions being used, I was pretty disappointed honestly. But to be fair very difficult to have worked through everyone sketch and everyone with better village cases to be made.

If I was sure it wouldn't have affected the plan, I would have blocked her just on principle. My concern was that AM's plan only had a chance of succeeding if the supposed night avoidance was in place, and I was concerned a block might actually block that. I haven't seen that, but many games I play here each one will often have at least one mechnical thing I have never seen.

Note that I didn't exclude her from blocking in my other decision making.

No one was left out of my analysis, and no one was above suspicion.

But notice how when I do try to think through these things (like theorizing about April or Shorty) I get shut down by some players, often being told VCA or mechanics or tone makes them not worth considering. It's frustrating.

I got shut down on considering Shorty any further mainly because of VCA. But I will stand by it, rather than not thinking it through, it's important to consider under what circumstances anyone might be wolf, what would have to be true for that to be true, articulate it, and then comparing the likelihood of sets of the different sets of conditions. I went through this process for every player and attempted it with Shorty and got shut down.

Personally, that's been the only way I've ever been able to avoid being boned like we were this game. It wasn't too much mechanics analysis or talk per se - it was reliance on too many assumptions and not considering all the angles. Too much reliance on VCA.

Deep wolf damage (and I will call Shorty a deep wolf here because she had being in the village bloc and VCA going for her) can only be limited by careful flow of info by PM, heavy skepticism looking for how any mechanical happening CAN be wolf or villager (I think it's necessary to consider it BOTH ways and never only consider the one case, AM did do this well in considering how my block of her led to a no kill night, ie wolves just did not exercise kill power that night), and VCA should NEVER be used to dismiss observations you make of people's posts, or considering if they might be a wolf. I think a read comes best from posts, and then you can use VCA or mechanics to see if that supports or contradicts the read.

I'm not saying, oh, we would have caught Shorty. I'm just frustrated that it feels like whenever someone wanted to go down that line of thinking, it was like, how dare they even consider it. That's a bad way to play in my opinion. If I hadn't caved mostly out of lack of time and effort, I would have thought more about theories of how could Shorty be a wolf. I brought up 3P, that she shot a packmate, basically theories of how does someone have a kill power and they're not immediately a village vigiliante. I shouldn't have been deterred by being discouraged and should have read her posts more closely or ISO'd her, and that's what I'm frustrated by in my play here.

When I bring up a farfetched theory, sure, I want someone to counter it. But I want to feel like they actually considered it seriously as a possibility even if they conclude it's not likely for xyz reason.

 

[Crayola227]

I don't see how Shorty being a lone wolf not part of the pack with her own wincon means she can't be considered a deep wolf.

She made it into the village bloc partly because of VCA.

 

[Crayola227]

I seriously thought about tracking you at one point and I will regret it forever

Investigative roles especially can't afford not to check players with good VCA or are otherwise deep in the village bloc at times.

There is a line of thinking that says it can be as important as checking into obviously sketch players. The upside of looking into players likely to get yeeted is obviously higher pretest probability of wolfiness, and possibly clearing someone of a misyeet.

The upside of looking into players like Shorty this game is catching a deep wolf (someone in the village bloc with no obvious markers of wolfiness).

The mafiascum website on seers has an interesting discussion on investigating sketchy players vs village reads that can be applied to other abilities somewhat.

This was why towards the end I checked into AM (widely village read but lack of other village data) vs Shorty. Besides the other targets having reasons not to try to block them, they were the "village core" in some ways.

 

[Animal Midwife]

I don't see how Shorty being a lone wolf not part of the pack with her own wincon means she can't be considered a deep wolf.

She made it into the village bloc partly because of VCA.

Deepwolfing is strictly defined by by being a heavy busser.

shorty mechanically can not be considered any level of busser because she had no idea who any of the other scum were and her wincon was incompatible with wolves.

It is fully possible to be miscleared to the point of entering a bloc without deepwolfing.

 

[Crayola227]

To be fair, that had less to do with PM pocketing and more to do with the fact I had been committed to the AM plan, and needed to be sure the block wouldn't interfere with any passive abilities related to the plan.

When I got to the PM and learned the "secret" and the mechanics assumptions being used, I was pretty disappointed honestly. But to be fair very difficult to have worked through everyone sketch and everyone with better village cases to be made.

If I was sure it wouldn't have affected the plan, I would have blocked her just on principle. My concern was that AM's plan only had a chance of succeeding if the supposed night avoidance was in place, and I was concerned a block might actually block that. I haven't seen that, but many games I play here each one will often have at least one mechnical thing I have never seen.

Note that I didn't exclude her from blocking in my other decision making.

No one was left out of my analysis, and no one was above suspicion.

But notice how when I do try to think through these things (like theorizing about April or Shorty) I get shut down by some players, often being told VCA or mechanics or tone makes them not worth considering. It's frustrating.

I got shut down on considering Shorty any further mainly because of VCA. But I will stand by it, rather than not thinking it through, it's important to consider under what circumstances anyone might be wolf, what would have to be true for that to be true, articulate it, and then comparing the likelihood of sets of the different sets of conditions. I went through this process for every player and attempted it with Shorty and got shut down.

Personally, that's been the only way I've ever been able to avoid being boned like we were this game. It wasn't too much mechanics analysis or talk per se - it was reliance on too many assumptions and not considering all the angles. Too much reliance on VCA.

Deep wolf damage (and I will call Shorty a deep wolf here because she had being in the village bloc and VCA going for her) can only be limited by careful flow of info by PM, heavy skepticism looking for how any mechanical happening CAN be wolf or villager (I think it's necessary to consider it BOTH ways and never only consider the one case, AM did do this well in considering how my block of her led to a no kill night, ie wolves just did not exercise kill power that night), and VCA should NEVER be used to dismiss observations you make of people's posts, or considering if they might be a wolf. I think a read comes best from posts, and then you can use VCA or mechanics to see if that supports or contradicts the read.

I'm not saying, oh, we would have caught Shorty. I'm just frustrated that it feels like whenever someone wanted to go down that line of thinking, it was like, how dare they even consider it. That's a bad way to play in my opinion. If I hadn't caved mostly out of lack of time and effort, I would have thought more about theories of how could Shorty be a wolf. I brought up 3P, that she shot a packmate, basically theories of how does someone have a kill power and they're not immediately a village vigiliante. I shouldn't have been deterred by being discouraged and should have read her posts more closely or ISO'd her, and that's what I'm frustrated by in my play here.

When I bring up a farfetched theory, sure, I want someone to counter it. But I want to feel like they actually considered it seriously as a possibility even if they conclude it's not likely for xyz reason.

Also didn't anyone think it was odd that after shooting a wolf, Shorty lived that long?

AM usually says for a vig to claim right away if they don't have bullets left. But this game she said, Oh, it's like an innocent child if they wait and claim at end game.

In any case, if the vig doesn't claim for whatever reason, I just assume they have more bullets. Main reason I didn't push to analyze who it was. But at some point despite our talking in code, seemed like even an idiot wolf like myself bad at catching soft claims would have caught on.

Yes, there were investigative roles to kill, but some of us had heavy sus despite that. Seemed a bit weird to me the vig with bullets left or who didn't declare being out, wouldn't have been a higher priority NK target.

This played into my supreme skepticism about the plan that relied on the vig, because it was hard to imagine the wolves would have put themselves in that position. It was one reason I heavily suspected AM. Although she is one player as wolf I can see keeping the vig around.

 

[Crayola227]

Deepwolfing is strictly defined by by being a heavy busser.

shorty mechanically can not be considered any level of busser because she had no idea who any of the other scum were and her wincon was incompatible with wolves.

It is fully possible to be miscleared to the point of entering a bloc without deepwolfing.

#9: The Art of Power Wolfing (by Thingyman)

www.mafiauniverse.com

This mentions bussing in context of deep wolfing, but my understanding is that is not the defining feature.

"Furthermore, these teams often depend on one or a few individuals from their team emerging into the role of "deep wolf", which is a popular denotation for a member of the mafia team that is "deep undercover", i.e. has infiltrated the town core or at least gotten on the right side of the town core's reads. What this typically means is that the other members of the mafia team are often resigned to having to be lynched at some point, and because of this they either stop giving a full effort or they try to set up the "deep wolf" for the endgame."

He says what a deep wolf is "has infiltrated town core", but he says it *typically* means bussing. Typical is not the same as defining feature.

 

[Animal Midwife]

Also didn't anyone think it was odd that after shooting a wolf, Shorty lived that long?

AM usually says for a vig to claim right away if they don't have bullets left. But this game she said, Oh, it's like an innocent child if they wait and claim at end game.

In any case, if the vig doesn't claim for whatever reason, I just assume they have more bullets. Main reason I didn't push to analyze who it was. But at some point despite our talking in code, seemed like even an idiot wolf like myself bad at catching soft claims would have caught on.

Yes, there were investigative roles to kill, but some of us had heavy sus despite that. Seemed a bit weird to me the vig with bullets left or who didn't declare being out, wouldn't have been a higher priority NK target.

This played into my supreme skepticism about the plan that relied on the vig, because it was hard to imagine the wolves would have put themselves in that position. It was one reason I heavily suspected AM. Although she is one player as wolf I can see keeping the vig around.

No, I definitely don't believe in unnecessary reveals. POE reveals make sense, but even then, are most helpful only when in serious danger of being yeeted. Otherwise, claiming makes you a sitting duck for death and a harder endgame for those left behind (assuming there's no plan that can definitively cut through the POE before it's too late).

 

[Crayola227]

No, I definitely don't believe in unnecessary reveals. POE reveals make sense, but even then, are most helpful only when in serious danger of being yeeted. Otherwise, claiming makes you a sitting duck for death and a harder endgame for those left behind (assuming there's no plan that can definitively cut through the POE before it's too late).

I claimed as soon as I was out of bullets in the England game based on you saying vig should claim when out, even though those kills were sketchy as hell. I must have misunderstood then.

 

[Animal Midwife]

#9: The Art of Power Wolfing (by Thingyman)

www.mafiauniverse.com

This mentions bussing in context of deep wolfing, but my understanding is that is not the defining feature.

"Furthermore, these teams often depend on one or a few individuals from their team emerging into the role of "deep wolf", which is a popular denotation for a member of the mafia team that is "deep undercover", i.e. has infiltrated the town core or at least gotten on the right side of the town core's reads. What this typically means is that the other members of the mafia team are often resigned to having to be lynched at some point, and because of this they either stop giving a full effort or they try to set up the "deep wolf" for the endgame."

He says what a deep wolf is "has infiltrated town core", but he says it *typically* means bussing. Typical is not the same as defining feature.

Right, a member of the mafia (or wolves as we call them). shorty was not a member. She couldn't win with them alive and they couldn't win with her alive. So she "bussed" genny as much as she "bussed" Engima.

She infiltrated because people were looking for a single faction. She was incompatible with the concept of only one faction. Miscleared is a correct description, but deepwolfing is not here.

 

[Crayola227]

"Deep wolfing" is actually a convoluted term that means different things to different people, but for me is the scum who is trying to go unnoticed. Others might conflate a deep wolf with someone who is trying to come off as a town powergamer tho."

Information

forum.mafiascum.net

 

[Animal Midwife]

I claimed as soon as I was out of bullets in the England game based on you saying vig should claim when out, even though those kills were sketchy as hell. I must have misunderstood then.

That was because you were deep in the POE and shot in the village bloc. I do not recall asking for a claim there however. In fact, I seem to remember thinking it was just wolf vigging anyway.

 

[Crayola227]

I don't define "deep wolf" or "deep scum" by the presence of bussing. Because if I mean bussing, I can say bussing.

What do you call these other types of scum that end up deep in the village bloc and it wasn't owing to bussing?

This is why I prefer to use "deep wolf" more broadly, and if I mean a deep wolf because they bussed, say they are a bussing wolf or a bussing deep wolf

 

[Crayola227]

That was because you were deep in the POE and shot in the village bloc. I do not recall asking for a claim there however. In fact, I seem to remember thinking it was just wolf vigging anyway.

Well maybe you could explain your thoughts on when a village vig should or shouldn't claim and under what circumstances, I would appreciate it very much.

 

[Crayola227]

I always appreciate your thoughts on mechanics strategy AM. Really.

 

[Animal Midwife]

"Deep wolfing" is actually a convoluted term that means different things to different people, but for me is the scum who is trying to go unnoticed. Others might conflate a deep wolf with someone who is trying to come off as a town powergamer tho."

Information

forum.mafiascum.net

I'm not even fully certain what town powergamer is. If they're trying to say a powerwolf is also a deepwolf that is convoluted and an oxymoron. I prefer straightforward definitions so I can know what someone means quickly.

Like if they say deepwolf, I will 100% time assume they mean bussers, especially ones that appear premature or unwavering in confidence.

If it's used to mean anyone who is village read, I'll end up suspecting the entire roster for paradoxical reasons. So I'd rather use misclear and describe the specific misclear candidate.

 

[Crayola227]

By my definition of deep wolf....

So take Cubs for example. He's basically never going to make it into town bloc because by tone alone he'll probably never get that widely town read, so no matter how many fellow wolves he busses, he never gets into the bloc. He can be a bussing wolf, but likely never deep. He could still win or make it to end game, but probably not by good "unnoticed" or without sus.

Then take you. You never bus. But you can still easily make into town bloc based on all the rest. You could be a deep wolf without bussing.

 

[Animal Midwife]

I don't define "deep wolf" or "deep scum" by the presence of bussing. Because if I mean bussing, I can say bussing.

What do you call these other types of scum that end up deep in the village bloc and it wasn't owing to bussing?

This is why I prefer to use "deep wolf" more broadly, and if I mean a deep wolf because they bussed, say they are a bussing wolf or a bussing deep wolf

I call them powerwolves (if the barest minimum of bussing occurs), deepwolves (if the maximum amount of bussing occurs), and wolves (if they're just playing a standard range with not too much or too little bussing and defending packmates, allowing for the most adaptability).

They're "deep" because they go so far to look trustworthy to village that they'll toss one (or more) of their own under the bus.

 

[Crayola227]

I'm not even fully certain what town powergamer is. If they're trying to say a powerwolf is also a deepwolf that is convoluted and an oxymoron. I prefer straightforward definitions so I can know what someone means quickly.

Like if they say deepwolf, I will 100% time assume they mean bussers, especially ones that appear premature or unwavering in confidence.

If it's used to mean anyone who is village read, I'll end up suspecting the entire roster for paradoxical reasons. So I'd rather use misclear and describe the specific misclear candidate.

I don't know what they mean exactly by the second sentence, but I agree with the first.

By my definition, someone who is not bussing effectively, like premature or wavering on confidence, would by definition not be a deep wolf, because bussers that are obviously bussing usually don't end up widely town read in the town bloc. To be a deep wolf, they have to go by unnoticed or infiltrate the bloc.

Not everyone who is in the town bloc or village read are going to be very realistic choices as a deep wolf just because they are there. Although it is worth considering if each one might be a deep wolf.

 

[Crayola227]

I call them powerwolves (if the barest minimum of bussing occurs), deepwolves (if the maximum amount of bussing occurs), and wolves (if they're just playing a standard range with not too much or too little bussing and defending packmates, allowing for the most adaptability).

They're "deep" because they go so far to look trustworthy to village that they'll toss one (or more) of their own under the bus.

My issue is that some of these non-bussers that end up deep in village bloc, may not actually be power wolfing.

I have more ti say but falling asleep

 

[Animal Midwife]

Well maybe you could explain your thoughts on when a village vig should or shouldn't claim and under what circumstances, I would appreciate it very much.

Claim if they're on course to be misyeeted or if it's mylo/yolo (though discretion can be applied even to the latter if the vig is already in the village bloc). Otherwise say nothing.

 

[dyachei]

Claim if they're on course to be misyeeted or if it's mylo/yolo (though discretion can be applied even to the latter if the vig is already in the village bloc). Otherwise say nothing.

sometimes it's best to claim the night PRIOR to mylo/yolo because claims the day of are often more suspect

 

[supershorty]

Right, a member of the mafia (or wolves as we call them). shorty was not a member. She couldn't win with them alive and they couldn't win with her alive. So she "bussed" genny as much as she "bussed" Engima.

She infiltrated because people were looking for a single faction. She was incompatible with the concept of only one faction. Miscleared is a correct description, but deepwolfing is not here.

Yeah, this. I had to eliminate everyone in the game for my wincon. By definition, as SDN uses it, I cannot have deepwolfed, (and wouldn’t anyway - I wasn’t raised that way 😉). That would require bussing, which would require me to be a member of a scum team, which I wasn’t.

It will, however, make it potentially easier to find scum searching for a low hanging reason to yeet me in future games because if I have a good VCA, they’ll claim I’m a deepwolf and my VCA can’t be trusted. But I’m not. There’s zero evidence of that in my wolfing history. Powerwolf, yes. Deepwolf, no, and I will fite anyone who tries to claim that I am or that I would bus. 😂

 

[WildZoo]

Also didn't anyone think it was odd that after shooting a wolf, Shorty lived that long?

AM usually says for a vig to claim right away if they don't have bullets left. But this game she said, Oh, it's like an innocent child if they wait and claim at end game.

In any case, if the vig doesn't claim for whatever reason, I just assume they have more bullets. Main reason I didn't push to analyze who it was. But at some point despite our talking in code, seemed like even an idiot wolf like myself bad at catching soft claims would have caught on.

Yes, there were investigative roles to kill, but some of us had heavy sus despite that. Seemed a bit weird to me the vig with bullets left or who didn't declare being out, wouldn't have been a higher priority NK target.

This played into my supreme skepticism about the plan that relied on the vig, because it was hard to imagine the wolves would have put themselves in that position. It was one reason I heavily suspected AM. Although she is one player as wolf I can see keeping the vig around.

As a point of interest, Mel did at one point have the "vig" narrowed down to AM or shorty, but then he died so he couldn't do anything about it lol

 

[supershorty]

As a point of interest, Mel did at one point have the "vig" narrowed down to AM or shorty, but then he died so he couldn't do anything about it lol

Part of why I was choking so much on the Mel vote was because I couldn’t decide if it might be to my advantage to keep him around if he was a wolf, but I was moderately concerned he’d try to kill me and I wanted to keep that death avoidance as long as possible.