.

[JLT223]

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No it doesn't irritate me. You're asking reasonable questions and seem open to debate. I got slightly irritated at other people because I explained my opinions and views six ways to Sunday and somehow still didn't manage to get the point across to them, which is probably more my fault for not being clear than it is theirs for not understanding. But I digress...

My definition of a qualified applicant is an applicant who gets accepted to dental school. There are a concrete, limited number of seats, and applicants with stats that would have gotten them in 5 years ago but now leave them on the outside looking in. This doesn't mean they're "dumb" or "useless", it just means they're not qualified to go to dental school that cycle. They either need to improve their app next cycle or do something else with their lives, its just that simple. You can't evaluate people based on stats in the past; that's ridiculous, and I saw somebody doing that which blew my mind. We aren't applying in the 2005 or 2010 cycle. We applied in the 2015 cycle. It's literally like me saying "oh I'm 5'10" and I'm exceptionally tall, because the average height of somebody in the 1300's was like 5'1". Am I short at 5'10"? No, but I'm certainly not exceptionally tall by today's standards. I'm not even sort of tall by today's standards.

Competition for everything is increasing and you have to keep up or get out of the way. It's tough but it's true. Imagine if every person who wanted something could have it.

Increasing the number of seats in order to make money (more than one private school is guilty of this, which is why I have repeatedly said I'm not singling out Touro) is clearly detrimental to the profession because the percentage of people going to work in truly undeserved areas is smaller than the percentage of new grads that either go work as an associate in a private practice in a well-served area, where at least they are more likely to practice ethically. The new grads may unfortunately end up at a corporate practice. Now, this isn't to say that all private practices are the bastions of squeaky clean ethics, nor that all corporate offices operate like up selling mechanics or used-car salesmen. However, corporate offices are often leaving treatment decisions and goals up to business managers and not dentist, and there is a lot of dentists caving in to the pressure to produce dentistry that isn't ethical or necessary. The dentists themselves just as culpable as corporate leadership, but the elimination/slowing of the corporate model would at least reduce some of the risk to patients this type of dentistry poses. If we don't put them in the tough spot of being unethical to keep their job and provide for their families, it's less likely to happen. Period. Corporate is growing quickly and preying on young new grads that need an immediate, steady job to help pay off increasingly high debt burdens. Incomes have remained stagnant in dentistry since the early 2000s and the cost of attendance has doubled in that time. People are doing what they need to to pay off the debt. It's sad but it's true, and the patients are the ones who are hurt by it.

As much as it would be nice for all these new grads to work for the IHS, or move to rural Montana or Mississippi or inner-city Memphis, it's unrealistic to think that people $300,000+ in the hole will uproot and take the risk of living somewhere like that when there are guaranteed higher incomes and better school systems for their kids elsewhere. It's just too much of a risk for someone with that debt to make that decision, even if they are single. That's why I think the opening of schools doesn't due anything to address the poor allocation of dentists, and makes saturation worse. Am I pretending to have a solution to an immensely complex problem? No, but I do strongly believe that opening new expensive schools is not a solution.

I'm not saying dentistry is in grave danger, but the excesses of corporate and its harm to patients is, I believe, the ugliest part of an otherwise great profession.

Please let me know if there's anything you'd like me to explain or clarify. Also, I'm sorry for all the Fairfield County jokes I have made and will continue to make in my life. Whenever I meet someone and tell them from Connecticut, I clearly emphasize I'm from elsewhere in the state lol. It's all good though.

10/10

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

.

 

[tooth knockn]

No it doesn't irritate me. You're asking reasonable questions and seem open to debate. I got slightly irritated at other people because I explained my opinions and views six ways to Sunday and somehow still didn't manage to get the point across to them, which is probably more my fault for not being clear than it is theirs for not understanding. But I digress...

My definition of a qualified applicant is an applicant who gets accepted to dental school. There are a concrete, limited number of seats, and applicants with stats that would have gotten them in 5 years ago but now leave them on the outside looking in. This doesn't mean they're "dumb" or "useless", it just means they're not qualified to go to dental school that cycle. They either need to improve their app next cycle or do something else with their lives, its just that simple. You can't evaluate people based on stats in the past; that's ridiculous, and I saw somebody doing that which blew my mind. We aren't applying in the 2005 or 2010 cycle. We applied in the 2015 cycle. It's literally like me saying "oh I'm 5'10" and I'm exceptionally tall, because the average height of somebody in the 1300's was like 5'1". Am I short at 5'10"? No, but I'm certainly not exceptionally tall by today's standards. I'm not even sort of tall by today's standards.

Competition for everything is increasing and you have to keep up or get out of the way. It's tough but it's true. Imagine if every person who wanted something could have it.

Increasing the number of seats in order to make money (more than one private school is guilty of this, which is why I have repeatedly said I'm not singling out Touro) is clearly detrimental to the profession because the percentage of people going to work in truly undeserved areas is smaller than the percentage of new grads that either go work as an associate in a private practice in a well-served area, where at least they are more likely to practice ethically. The new grads may unfortunately end up at a corporate practice. Now, this isn't to say that all private practices are the bastions of squeaky clean ethics, nor that all corporate offices operate like up selling mechanics or used-car salesmen. However, corporate offices are often leaving treatment decisions and goals up to business managers and not dentist, and there is a lot of dentists caving in to the pressure to produce dentistry that isn't ethical or necessary. The dentists themselves just as culpable as corporate leadership, but the elimination/slowing of the corporate model would at least reduce some of the risk to patients this type of dentistry poses. If we don't put them in the tough spot of being unethical to keep their job and provide for their families, it's less likely to happen. Period. Corporate is growing quickly and preying on young new grads that need an immediate, steady job to help pay off increasingly high debt burdens. Incomes have remained stagnant in dentistry since the early 2000s and the cost of attendance has doubled in that time. People are doing what they need to to pay off the debt. It's sad but it's true, and the patients are the ones who are hurt by it.

As much as it would be nice for all these new grads to work for the IHS, or move to rural Montana or Mississippi or inner-city Memphis, it's unrealistic to think that people $300,000+ in the hole will uproot and take the risk of living somewhere like that when there are guaranteed higher incomes and better school systems for their kids elsewhere. It's just too much of a risk for someone with that debt to make that decision, even if they are single. That's why I think the opening of schools doesn't due anything to address the poor allocation of dentists, and makes saturation worse. Am I pretending to have a solution to an immensely complex problem? No, but I do strongly believe that opening new expensive schools is not a solution.

I'm not saying dentistry is in grave danger, but the excesses of corporate and its harm to patients is, I believe, the ugliest part of an otherwise great profession.

Please let me know if there's anything you'd like me to explain or clarify. Also, I'm sorry for all the Fairfield County jokes I have made and will continue to make in my life. Whenever I meet someone and tell them from Connecticut, I clearly emphasize I'm from elsewhere in the state lol. It's all good though.

WHAT?

Are you trying to say?

are you still complaining about dentistry saturation and dental school costs, and students who get in are better than those who do not?


Please provide statistics, research, or proof to what you are saying.

You are full of opinion.

just like feralis and plasma . ..

 

[tooth knockn]

@rxdmx372 @PlasmaMembrane @FeralisExtremum

Maybe you guys are getting into the wrong field?

Just a thought

 

[tooth knockn]

 

[FeralisExtremum]

@rxdmx372 @PlasmaMembrane @FeralisExtremum

Maybe you guys are getting into the wrong field?

Just a thought

Isn't that what adcoms have been telling you the past 3 cycles?

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

.

 

[Incis0r]

These are all direct quotes from my posts in this forum.

"There are a concrete, limited number of seats, and applicants with stats that would have gotten them in 5 years ago but now leave them on the outside looking in. This doesn't mean they're "dumb" or "useless""

"By no means am I belittling your accomplishments, nor am I making any assumptions or insinuations about what type of dentists Touro will graduate,"

"Touro is not the only school I have an issue with. They didn't start this trend; they are exacerbating it."

"There are 12,000 applicants every year for dental school; for the sake of the 0ther 322,930,000 people in this country, we can't be increasing the number of seats over which they're fighting.
I do agree that we should all show each other respect regardless of the schools we attend."

"so while you may be better in soliciting a reaction out of them I don't think this encourages instructive dialogue at all. I know you worked hard to be a very strong applicant and I'm not asking you to agree or empathize with these people because I'm not going to either but please at least show some sympathy and respect"

"I'm not afraid of competition, I'm afraid of what it's going to do to patients when we have more and more debt-burdened dentists running around trying to make it out of the red."

"Who knows, maybe there are 110 people out there who are good applicants, just applied too late for other schools, and are willing to attend a school not yet accredited rather than wait until next cycle. I'm not worried over the lack of quality of the school or its dentists. I'm worried about the number of dentists with enormous debt burdens who will end up working for corporate, regardless of which new, unnecessary school they attended. The patients are going to suffer most and you can't say that's not true with a straight face."

It was not my intention to offend you, but to suggest that I'm not empathetic or personable enough to enter the profession of dentistry is not exactly a conclusion I'd draw from this.


http://www.ada.org/~/media/ADA/Science and Research/HPI/Files/HPIBrief_1114_1.ashx

This is where it states 22.9% of adults have not been to the dentist within a year, 40% of which said inability to afford the care as the reason. So there is a large number of people who cannot afford to go to the dentist.

http://www.ada.org/en/science-research/health-policy-institute/data-center/supply-of-dentists

This link contains an excel file that gives each state's number of practicing dentists. Let's talk about population to provider ratios. Maryland, New Jersey, Connecticut, and Massachusetts are all comparatively densely populated, well served metropolitan areas. They are small so there isn't much variation within the stats, other than more rural areas and inner cities.

Maryland: 1,408 people/dentist
New Jersey: 1,238 people/dentist
Connecticut: 1,309 people/dentist
Massachusetts:1,298 people/dentist

Now do you think that newly graduated dentist are graduating in Cumberland, MD/ inner-city Baltimore? Or Bethesda and Chevy Chase?
How about inner-city Boston, Chicoppee, Holyoke, Springfield, Fall River, New Bedford, and Glouceseter, MA? Or Newton, Acton, Lexington, Concord, and Hopkinton?
Camden, Elizabeth, Newark, NJ? Or Cherry Hill and Voorhies, Bergen and Essex Counties, NJ?
Hartford, New Haven, Bridgeport, Waterbury, and Willimantic, CT? Or Avon-Farmington-Simsbury, and Greenwich, Darien and New Canaan?

You tell me. Please use some common sense.

All traditionally ranked as among the wealthiest states by most metrics. Now for Mississippi and West Virginia, traditionally among the poorest by traditional metrics:

Mississippi: 2,337 people/dentist
West Virginia: 2,022 people/dentist

So my "opinion" that new grads flock to traditionally well-served areas and will continue to do so looks pretty grounded in fact. They don't go to traditionally undeserved areas.

As for my opinion of corporate. Please read all of these.

http://www.publicintegrity.org/2012...s-see-big-profits-adults-who-cant-afford-care
http://www.publicintegrity.org/2013...ds-ouster-large-dental-chain-medicaid-program
http://www.publicintegrity.org/2012...ehind-dental-treatment-america-s-poorest-kids

Looks like US Senate Report agrees with my opinion.

If you don't believe my interpretation of what constitutes as undeserved or well served, check this out. You can type in dentistry and see how severe the need is at each public health clinic. Look at where they are; inner-cities, or rural and economically depressed areas. Not where grads are moving without encouragement/incentive, such as the NHSC that offers a very small number of loan repayment scholarships.

https://nhscjobs.hrsa.gov/external/search/index.seam

I have tried to explain my positions in a well-thought out and respectful manner. You asked me to provide proof so I did. I don't think that I'm entering the wrong profession; I actually think I'm very well suited for dentistry.

You don't have to agree with me, but I stand by every word I've said. I wish you the best of luck in your career and will be honored to have you as a colleague, as I will be honored to be a colleague with anybody who shows respect to others, which is what I've been doing this entire thread, and as evidenced by the direct quotes I provided to begin this post.

You know, if dentistry doesn't work out for you, you could kill it in law or politics. You've got a great mix of being able to persuade people, holding yourself together in the face of criticism, and thinking about issues critically from all perspectives. But then again, these characteristics- I'm sure- will make you succeed in dentistry. 👍

 

[GoldenDomer11]

These are all direct quotes from my posts in this forum.

"There are a concrete, limited number of seats, and applicants with stats that would have gotten them in 5 years ago but now leave them on the outside looking in. This doesn't mean they're "dumb" or "useless""

"By no means am I belittling your accomplishments, nor am I making any assumptions or insinuations about what type of dentists Touro will graduate,"

"Touro is not the only school I have an issue with. They didn't start this trend; they are exacerbating it."

"There are 12,000 applicants every year for dental school; for the sake of the 0ther 322,930,000 people in this country, we can't be increasing the number of seats over which they're fighting.
I do agree that we should all show each other respect regardless of the schools we attend."

"so while you may be better in soliciting a reaction out of them I don't think this encourages instructive dialogue at all. I know you worked hard to be a very strong applicant and I'm not asking you to agree or empathize with these people because I'm not going to either but please at least show some sympathy and respect"

"I'm not afraid of competition, I'm afraid of what it's going to do to patients when we have more and more debt-burdened dentists running around trying to make it out of the red."

"Who knows, maybe there are 110 people out there who are good applicants, just applied too late for other schools, and are willing to attend a school not yet accredited rather than wait until next cycle. I'm not worried over the lack of quality of the school or its dentists. I'm worried about the number of dentists with enormous debt burdens who will end up working for corporate, regardless of which new, unnecessary school they attended. The patients are going to suffer most and you can't say that's not true with a straight face."

It was not my intention to offend you, but to suggest that I'm not empathetic or personable enough to enter the profession of dentistry is not exactly a conclusion I'd draw from this.


http://www.ada.org/~/media/ADA/Science and Research/HPI/Files/HPIBrief_1114_1.ashx

This is where it states 22.9% of adults have not been to the dentist within a year, 40% of which said inability to afford the care as the reason. So there is a large number of people who cannot afford to go to the dentist.

http://www.ada.org/en/science-research/health-policy-institute/data-center/supply-of-dentists

This link contains an excel file that gives each state's number of practicing dentists. Let's talk about population to provider ratios. Maryland, New Jersey, Connecticut, and Massachusetts are all comparatively densely populated, well served metropolitan areas. They are small so there isn't much variation within the stats, other than more rural areas and inner cities.

Maryland: 1,408 people/dentist
New Jersey: 1,238 people/dentist
Connecticut: 1,309 people/dentist
Massachusetts:1,298 people/dentist

Now do you think that newly graduated dentist are graduating in Cumberland, MD/ inner-city Baltimore? Or Bethesda and Chevy Chase?
How about inner-city Boston, Chicoppee, Holyoke, Springfield, Fall River, New Bedford, and Glouceseter, MA? Or Newton, Acton, Lexington, Concord, and Hopkinton?
Camden, Elizabeth, Newark, NJ? Or Cherry Hill and Voorhies, Bergen and Essex Counties, NJ?
Hartford, New Haven, Bridgeport, Waterbury, and Willimantic, CT? Or Avon-Farmington-Simsbury, and Greenwich, Darien and New Canaan?

You tell me. Please use some common sense.

All traditionally ranked as among the wealthiest states by most metrics. Now for Mississippi and West Virginia, traditionally among the poorest by traditional metrics:

Mississippi: 2,337 people/dentist
West Virginia: 2,022 people/dentist

So my "opinion" that new grads flock to traditionally well-served areas and will continue to do so looks pretty grounded in fact. They don't go to traditionally undeserved areas.

As for my opinion of corporate. Please read all of these.

http://www.publicintegrity.org/2012...s-see-big-profits-adults-who-cant-afford-care
http://www.publicintegrity.org/2013...ds-ouster-large-dental-chain-medicaid-program
http://www.publicintegrity.org/2012...ehind-dental-treatment-america-s-poorest-kids

Looks like US Senate Report agrees with my opinion.

If you don't believe my interpretation of what constitutes as undeserved or well served, check this out. You can type in dentistry and see how severe the need is at each public health clinic. Look at where they are; inner-cities, or rural and economically depressed areas. Not where grads are moving without encouragement/incentive, such as the NHSC that offers a very small number of loan repayment scholarships.

https://nhscjobs.hrsa.gov/external/search/index.seam

I have tried to explain my positions in a well-thought out and respectful manner. You asked me to provide proof so I did. I don't think that I'm entering the wrong profession; I actually think I'm very well suited for dentistry.

You don't have to agree with me, but I stand by every word I've said. I wish you the best of luck in your career and will be honored to have you as a colleague, as I will be honored to be a colleague with anybody who shows respect to others, which is what I've been doing this entire thread, and as evidenced by the direct quotes I provided to begin this post.

/thread closed

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[tooth knockn]

These are all direct quotes from my posts in this forum.

"There are a concrete, limited number of seats, and applicants with stats that would have gotten them in 5 years ago but now leave them on the outside looking in. This doesn't mean they're "dumb" or "useless""

"By no means am I belittling your accomplishments, nor am I making any assumptions or insinuations about what type of dentists Touro will graduate,"

"Touro is not the only school I have an issue with. They didn't start this trend; they are exacerbating it."

"There are 12,000 applicants every year for dental school; for the sake of the 0ther 322,930,000 people in this country, we can't be increasing the number of seats over which they're fighting.
I do agree that we should all show each other respect regardless of the schools we attend."

"so while you may be better in soliciting a reaction out of them I don't think this encourages instructive dialogue at all. I know you worked hard to be a very strong applicant and I'm not asking you to agree or empathize with these people because I'm not going to either but please at least show some sympathy and respect"

"I'm not afraid of competition, I'm afraid of what it's going to do to patients when we have more and more debt-burdened dentists running around trying to make it out of the red."

"Who knows, maybe there are 110 people out there who are good applicants, just applied too late for other schools, and are willing to attend a school not yet accredited rather than wait until next cycle. I'm not worried over the lack of quality of the school or its dentists. I'm worried about the number of dentists with enormous debt burdens who will end up working for corporate, regardless of which new, unnecessary school they attended. The patients are going to suffer most and you can't say that's not true with a straight face."

It was not my intention to offend you, but to suggest that I'm not empathetic or personable enough to enter the profession of dentistry is not exactly a conclusion I'd draw from this.


http://www.ada.org/~/media/ADA/Science and Research/HPI/Files/HPIBrief_1114_1.ashx

This is where it states 22.9% of adults have not been to the dentist within a year, 40% of which said inability to afford the care as the reason. So there is a large number of people who cannot afford to go to the dentist.

http://www.ada.org/en/science-research/health-policy-institute/data-center/supply-of-dentists

This link contains an excel file that gives each state's number of practicing dentists. Let's talk about population to provider ratios. Maryland, New Jersey, Connecticut, and Massachusetts are all comparatively densely populated, well served metropolitan areas. They are small so there isn't much variation within the stats, other than more rural areas and inner cities.

Maryland: 1,408 people/dentist
New Jersey: 1,238 people/dentist
Connecticut: 1,309 people/dentist
Massachusetts:1,298 people/dentist

Now do you think that newly graduated dentist are graduating in Cumberland, MD/ inner-city Baltimore? Or Bethesda and Chevy Chase?
How about inner-city Boston, Chicoppee, Holyoke, Springfield, Fall River, New Bedford, and Glouceseter, MA? Or Newton, Acton, Lexington, Concord, and Hopkinton?
Camden, Elizabeth, Newark, NJ? Or Cherry Hill and Voorhies, Bergen and Essex Counties, NJ?
Hartford, New Haven, Bridgeport, Waterbury, and Willimantic, CT? Or Avon-Farmington-Simsbury, and Greenwich, Darien and New Canaan?

You tell me. Please use some common sense.

All traditionally ranked as among the wealthiest states by most metrics. Now for Mississippi and West Virginia, traditionally among the poorest by traditional metrics:

Mississippi: 2,337 people/dentist
West Virginia: 2,022 people/dentist

So my "opinion" that new grads flock to traditionally well-served areas and will continue to do so looks pretty grounded in fact. They don't go to traditionally undeserved areas.

As for my opinion of corporate. Please read all of these.

http://www.publicintegrity.org/2012...s-see-big-profits-adults-who-cant-afford-care
http://www.publicintegrity.org/2013...ds-ouster-large-dental-chain-medicaid-program
http://www.publicintegrity.org/2012...ehind-dental-treatment-america-s-poorest-kids

Looks like US Senate Report agrees with my opinion.

If you don't believe my interpretation of what constitutes as undeserved or well served, check this out. You can type in dentistry and see how severe the need is at each public health clinic. Look at where they are; inner-cities, or rural and economically depressed areas. Not where grads are moving without encouragement/incentive, such as the NHSC that offers a very small number of loan repayment scholarships.

https://nhscjobs.hrsa.gov/external/search/index.seam

I have tried to explain my positions in a well-thought out and respectful manner. You asked me to provide proof so I did. I don't think that I'm entering the wrong profession; I actually think I'm very well suited for dentistry.

You don't have to agree with me, but I stand by every word I've said. I wish you the best of luck in your career and will be honored to have you as a colleague, as I will be honored to be a colleague with anybody who shows respect to others, which is what I've been doing this entire thread, and as evidenced by the direct quotes I provided to begin this post.

Dentist Position outlook:
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/dentists.htm
there is a need

There is work, but a lot of part time:
https://www.cds.org/News/CDS_Review...ancial_stability_over_starting_practices.aspx


Dentist to population ratio
Dentists and Demographics - American Dental Education ...

there is a need for dentist now, and more of a need in 2020's

Corporate dentistry is there because students are scared to search for work, or open up shop . . . .


I read your post good information . .. .

now the readers could be informed of the situation . .. . .

Dentistry is a beautiful person to person carrier . .. . Those who want to make a business out of it, maybe should go to these underserved areas and be helpful.

 

[JLT223]

Dentist Position outlook:
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/dentists.htm
there is a need

There is work, but a lot of part time:
https://www.cds.org/News/CDS_Review...ancial_stability_over_starting_practices.aspx


Dentist to population ratio
Dentists and Demographics - American Dental Education ...

there is a need for dentist now, and more of a need in 2020's

Corporate dentistry is there because students are scared to search for work, or open up shop . . . .


I read your post good information . .. .

now the readers could be informed of the situation . .. . .

Dentistry is a beautiful person to person carrier . .. . Those who want to make a business out of it, maybe should go to these underserved areas and be helpful.

Nobody ever said there wasn't a need. Your posts are very jumbled.

 

[tooth knockn]

Nobody ever said there wasn't a need. Your posts are very jumbled.

I am just adding information

Im not trying to prove a point.

I have a feeling some readers and members think there isn't a need .. . .

jumbled or not. .. . . good food for thought

straight to the point.

 

[tooth knockn]

Don't be nervous true dental people.

charge forward, and make your patients happy.

You get what you put in.

 

[nonociceptors]

Corporate dentistry is there because students are scared to search for work, or open up shop . . . .

Not even close

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

,

 

[tooth knockn]

Not even close

very close.

Debt is very scary for the average person.

common person don't want to be risky

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

[.

 

[sciencebio]

I guess opening new school somewhat contribute to saturation. However i doubt 110 new student isn't going to significantly impact dentist to population ratio. 320 million / # dentist + 110 is probably insignificant. Problem arise if there are more and more dental school opening but thats something we can't control.

Tuition is another topic. Touro isn't the most expensive and not the least. Assuming if tuition is causing students to go corporate, then USC, Midwestern, NYU, Penn, and some other would have more impact imo.

Underserved area is another topic but this one is tricky so i am not sure...

 

[nonociceptors]

very close.

Debt is very scary for the average person.

common person don't want to be risky

Maybe when it started growing, but the problem as it exists now isn't that new dentists are scared of opening up on their own, it's that corporate has made that almost impossibly difficult in some places. The problem I have with the way you worded it, which might not be how you intended to sound, is that I could easily flip your words and it still sounds right. Corporate doesn't exist because students are scared to open up their own practices. Students are scared to open up on their own because of corporate and debt. You mentioned nothing about debt. And I still fail to see how more schools, charging more money, leading to more graduates, is going to fix anything. Unless you mandate that these new grads practice in areas with low access to care, they'll simply worsen the problem that's already bad enough. There is nothing you can point to as evidence that this new class of dentists will be more selfless on average than the last.

 

[tooth knockn]

Maybe when it started growing, but the problem as it exists now isn't that new dentists are scared of opening up on their own, it's that corporate has made that almost impossibly difficult in some places. The problem I have with the way you worded it, which might not be how you intended to sound, is that I could easily flip your words and it still sounds right. Corporate doesn't exist because students are scared to open up their own practices. Students are scared to open up on their own because of corporate and debt. You mentioned nothing about debt. And I still fail to see how more schools, charging more money, leading to more graduates, is going to fix anything. Unless you mandate that these new grads practice in areas with low access to care, they'll simply worsen the problem that's already bad enough. There is nothing you can point to as evidence that this new class of dentists will be more selfless on average than the last.

hmmmm

I have been in the dental field for so much time. i have seen dentists come and go. come when they graduate, and go when they open up shop. on average, within 5 years after graduating, if they want to, or able to.. ( family, other responsibilities etc.)

If you go into any field, you must forecast/plan what you want to do, and where you want to do it. .. .

Like i said before, everyone wants to be close to home. (probably 80% of us)

Everyone wants to make $1MIL (90% of us)

those underserved areas, should have some politician or law makers or locals, entice healthcare professionals to go there if there is a drastic need. .. .

I am ready to go in Dental up to a certain # $ of Debt . . .. I am not nervous.

I don't even know why i am wasting my time on this post .. . but i feel that many people go into dentistry with a unclear vision of the field itself.

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

[.

 

[sciencebio]

Regardless of saturation, is there data how many dentist are retiring? i would like to see that if anyone has it.
6000 is number of new graduates every year?

 

[Advance]

I guess opening new school somewhat contribute to saturation. However i doubt 110 new student isn't going to significantly impact dentist to population ratio. 320 million / # dentist + 110 is probably insignificant. Problem arise if there are more and more dental school opening but thats something we can't control.

Tuition is another topic. Touro isn't the most expensive and not the least. Assuming if tuition is causing students to go corporate, then USC, Midwestern, NYU, Penn, and some other would have more impact imo.

Underserved area is another topic but this one is tricky so i am not sure...

You also have to keep in mind that new schools KEEP OPENING. Sure Touro's class of 110 might not have a huge impact but what if a school opened next year? And the following year? and the year after that? If schools keep opening it will effect saturation. This is where i have a problem. Touro specifically doesn't bother me. It's just the opening of new schools in general.

 

[JLT223]

Regardless of saturation, is there data how many dentist are retiring? i would like to see that if anyone has it.
6000 is number of new graduates every year?

The ADA has posted data stating that the average dentist isn't retiring as early as they used to in the 2000's. I believe the average dentist is working ~6 years longer. This is also something people need to take into account and it's often overlooked.

 

[sciencebio]

You also have to keep in mind that new schools KEEP OPENING. Sure Touro's class of 110 might not have a huge impact but what if a school opened next year? And the following year? and the year after that? If schools keep opening it will effect saturation. This is where i have a problem. Touro specifically doesn't bother me. It's just the opening of new schools in general.

yeah thats what i said. "Problem arise if there are more and more dental school opening".
But I also mentioned we can't do anything about it. I say it because prudential/dental students don't have control.
Thats what this thread is all about. We have complaints and concerns but its out of hands.
Im not sure which state and school but there are probably 5 school already lined up to open dental school.

 

[ajj70]

As much as it would be nice for all these new grads to work for the IHS, or move to rural Montana or Mississippi or inner-city Memphis, it's unrealistic to think that people $300,000+ in the hole will uproot and take the risk of living somewhere like that when there are guaranteed higher incomes and better school systems for their kids elsewhere. It's just too much of a risk for someone with that debt to make that decision, even if they are single. That's why I think the opening of schools doesn't due anything to address the poor allocation of dentists, and makes saturation worse. Am I pretending to have a solution to an immensely complex problem? No, but I do strongly believe that opening new expensive schools is not a solution.

I'm not saying dentistry is in grave danger, but the excesses of corporate and its harm to patients is, I believe, the ugliest part of an otherwise great profession.

Please let me know if there's anything you'd like me to explain or clarify. Also, I'm sorry for all the Fairfield County jokes I have made and will continue to make in my life. Whenever I meet someone and tell them from Connecticut, I clearly emphasize I'm from elsewhere in the state lol. It's all good though.

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291021.htm

One thing you seem to be ignoring in this argument, however, is that living in Rural Montana on $200,000 will give you a far nicer take home income than $200,000 in suburban NYC, or even $250,000 there. The dentist in Montana, mean wage is $130K, in NY, 160K. Average house in Bozeman compared to suburban NYC is $90,000 less, and Bozeman isn't particularly rural. Using numbers from suburban NYC to my rural area, the average house price in NYC is more than ANY house in my town, but is about $300,000 more, heck, for that $300,000 I could buy one of the nicest houses in town---and it would still be fare nicer than the $465,000 house in NYC. Dentist in my town, make, on average $50,000 more than the average NYC suburban dentist according to that link, and we are considered an underserved area, so....why don't you want to move to rural USA again?

Mean wage in Mississippi is $150K
Mean wage in North Dakota is 183K---with an average housing difference of 131K...that is a pretty big chunk of change toward your overall standard of living....

 

[schmoob]

Whataburger.

The Monterey Melt changed my life forever.


And my cholesterol.

 

[Advance]

The Monterey Melt changed my life forever.


And my cholesterol.

The honey BBQ chicken strip sandwich is my favorite.

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

,

 

[ajj70]

I'm not ignoring this at all, and you're quite right, but there are plenty of reasons why new grads aren't moving out there in droves.

They aren't from these areas. Most doctors and dentists grew up in affluent, suburban areas, despite all of the well-meaning efforts to add socioeconomic diversity to the profession. They're more than likely going to want to live in a place that gives them the amenities they're used to from their childhood (access to major cities, i.e. not Bozeman, MT or Fargo, ND) and the entertainment/cultural bonuses included with major cities. The majority of new grads not being from these areas also leads to the next reason, which is they're not well connected in such areas in terms of practicing dentists and having a finger on the pulse of the market. When they go home for breaks, or when they have time during dental school, they aren't being mentored by somebody in North Dakota; they're being mentored by somebody in their hometown or near their dental school. It is a very risky decision to pick up your life and move to Mississippi, Montana, or North Dakota when you have hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt in order to try and land an associate position by cold-calling people while you're in dental school. Whether it's wise or not, people will more than likely take the risk averse path and get a lower paying associate or corporate position in an already served area.

Another big reason is spouses and children. Spouses with existing jobs very often can't relocate to Montana, Mississippi, or North Dakota without having to lose their current job. People may rely on their parents or other relatives for child care, which they would otherwise have to pay a tremendous amount of their discretionary income for if they move away from their families. Also, people don't want to send their children to public schools in the middle of nowhere where teacher recruitment is an issue and tax bases are small and/or shrinking. They want their children to have access to high performing public schools in affluent suburban areas.

I'm not saying going rural is a bad idea, it's actually quite a good idea for a single dentist who is able to negotiate a good associate position while they're in dental school. I'm not ignoring all the benefits you listed, I'm just standing by the fact that it is risky and logistically difficult to most new grads, and while the rewards are pretty nice, it's just not going to happen for the majority of people.

I agree that most people won't move, but I think it is more for reasons I posted, that they are just unaware that they will make more money elsewhere and assume they will be more affluent practicing in suburban NYC. They assume that schools are better in suburban NYC, they are not necessarily and statistically, ND has better schools than NY if you look at combined ACT/SAT scores and national rank. Point being, there are a lot of assumptions about rural USA, and you hit on just about every single one of them, that just are not true. You talk about "culture" you do realize that Minneapolis has more theater (plays) seats outside of NYC and getting to Minneapolis from Grand Forks to watch a play is pretty easy--not to mention the world class museums and shopping to be had. Yes, NYC has more, but it's not like if you leave NY you walk into a 1850's lifestyle 🙂. Also, you don't even have to go "rural", heck, most major cities have a very large undeserved population and one could set up a practice in suburban USA as well as in Major Metro USA and still be FAR better off financially than practicing in NY. Back to my original point, where you go to school really has little bearing on where you end up practicing because most dental students are attending schools outside of their state in an area where they will not likely set up practice.

I can also tell you that the "connections" are far more important in NY to establish a associate position vs rural USA, mainly because of the need.

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

.

 

[EndoDreams]

If I am not already a dental student, I would definitely send my application towards touro. It will be ridiculous for you to not increase your chances because of your ego. Look at all the new dental school that have been opened within the last ten years and tell me which of them are producing graduates that are unable to come out to do dentistry like everyone else.

This is America. What do you think happens when supply cant meet demand? Capitalism kicks in. As long as there are people demanding to pay for 400k+ CoA, it will be profitable to meet that demand. Touro didn't set that trend.

I work at an orthodontic office and my boss was part of the inaugural class at A.T. Still University. He said their class got nothing but hate from the other predental students. Today, no one could care less and A.T. Still is viewed as a reputable dental school. Touro is and will be no different.

 

[Soleus715]

I work at an orthodontic office and my boss was part of the inaugural class at A.T. Still University. He said their class got nothing but hate from the other predental students. Today, no one could care less and A.T. Still is viewed as a reputable dental school. Touro is and will be no different.

I'm pretty late in joining this discussion, but do you or anyone else know how it went with all the new schools that have opened up?

Have they been similar to Touro in how they were taking applications even before getting the initial accreditation?
To me, it seems like the way they are doing the applications this cycle is bringing a lot of hate on top of it being a new school.

 

[CareerNumTwo]

There's 10 new dental schools since I was a pre-dent in 2005. Many other schools increased class sizes. Dental schools at prestigious universities like Northwestern, Georgetown an Emory have been replaced with schools like.... Touro. Rationalize it all you want, but it cheapens the profession.

Didn't know about this, so I looked it up. Pretty interesting actually..

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/10/29/u...ollment-dental-schools-close-or-cut-back.html

Part of it is actually quite comical compared to how things are now. For example: "And dental schools face other problems: Tuition that tops $15,000 a year at some private dental schools discourages many applicants, as does the fact that the average private dental school graduate has educational debts of $51,000." Granted these were 1987 dollars.

And this: "But the main cause for the declining interest in dental school is a widespread perception that advances in dental care have diminished the public's need for dentistry. 'We've done a very good job of preventing dental decay, and the birth control pill has done a very good job of reducing the population of children that was expected,'' said the dean of Emory's dental school, Dr. Dwight R. Weathers."