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2011 Match
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You really seem sure of your school and how it has prepared you academically and clinically for residency. You also seem to know about the quality of all the other students at the rest of the podiatry schools. So that means you must have rotated right next to many of them and can clearly tell the difference between a DMU student and someone else from a school that just doesn't train their students adequately nor give them the opportunity to succeed.
You have to be at least a 3rd year, but probably a 4th year with all your first hand experience and unbiased knowledge. Thank you for your insight.
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I don't know what you are quoting... the person only stated numbers of students in the scramble from about 4 schools (albeit wrong for OCPM). There were most definitely California students and programs in the scramble.
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Let's try this again. Darazon's question, the one you were replying to, was asking about CALIFORNIA RESIDENCIES. He was pointing out that none of the RESIDENCIES in CALIFORNIA were on the scramble list (from the CASPR page).
Your reply was in regards to STUDENTS from the California schools....
Sorry my reply wasn't clear the first time around.
Podophile said:
Why does everyone resort to this? It has nothing to do with wether you rotated with kids from other programs or not. You don't have to attend every school to look at objective data. This isn't some subjective topic. There is evidence of overall student success from every program...board pass rates, attrition rate, placement %, ABPS pass rates, etc.
My whole point is that school's are an integral part of our education, and some of the onus falls on them in regards to residency placement. Guess I should have used AZPOD as the example so people wouldn't have gotten so butt hurt.
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Thanks dtrack....not sure why there was so much confusion about my question!
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No prob, I got what you were asking...didn't think it was so tough. But I don't have an answer. Sorry 🙁
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Dr Harkless said an interesting thing to our class today in regards to the whole matching process.
He was talking about the interview process and why it is so academically orientated. They get you to suture, ask you surgical and anatomy questions etc etc.
He said the reason why podiatry does this is that there is no standardization between the schools as far as the quality of the education. It is not guaranteed that everyone who graduates out of podiatry will have the skills needed to be an excellent resident -that depends on how well your training has been.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I agree with dtrack on this one, I think schools play a huge process in preparing you for that residency interview.
He was talking about the interview process and why it is so academically orientated. They get you to suture, ask you surgical and anatomy questions etc etc.
He said the reason why podiatry does this is that there is no standardization between the schools as far as the quality of the education. It is not guaranteed that everyone who graduates out of podiatry will have the skills needed to be an excellent resident -that depends on how well your training has been.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I agree with dtrack on this one, I think schools play a huge process in preparing you for that residency interview.
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Alright Darazon and dtrack... dare I ask it? No I can't... Ah what the hell, which schools are you suggesting better prepare you for residency?
Yes we know a student can get an adequate education at every school as long as he applies himself. However I am interested in their individual opinions...
Yes we know a student can get an adequate education at every school as long as he applies himself. However I am interested in their individual opinions...
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Yes I already suggested that it is primarily up to individual effort. However, I don't buy that the schools are equal, and therefore am interested in getting a variety of opinions...
IMO residency placement is more the individual than the school. We have a larger program and year after year the entering residents are a diverse group. Yes some years we have a majority of one school but the next year they may be scattered over several schools or a majority come from another.
Having said that, the schools do produce other data that implies either different educational processes or student selection criteria. There are schools that have much lower Part 1 and 2 pass rates and definitely schools that have lower board qualification and certification pass rates.
I happened to attend the ABPS annual meeting at ACFAS. During the examination report, there was a slide that showed 2 schools (kept anonymous) that showed consistently lower pass rates for board qualification and a few years ago these schools had around a 50% pass rate.
BTW there are certain residencies that have similar data (perhaps they get the students who are described above).
@ Ankle Breaker- I don't think dtrack was saying that good students can't succeed at any school. All those Podiatrists you listed off would probably have done well at any school because of their hard work and effort and that's great. If you read his post I believe he is saying that some schools prepare the average to below average students better to pass boards and get a residency spot, dtrack can correct me if I'm wrong.
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This seems to point to certain schools taking poor performing individuals, and then certain residencies taking those same poor performing individuals. Yes the common threads are the students AND the schools, BUT it doesn't look like the "hand-off" is really working. The questions really is, should those individuals be allowed to get out into the professional world by either allowing them to make it through school or then after the "hand-off" to residency status, and then graduating from residency? This really then calls into question about who matches and who doesn't...etc. I don't know the answer to these question.
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The CPME mandates a certain curriculum at all school. Every school is required to teach x,y, and z courses. To have a homogenous learning experience at ALL the schools would require one of two things. Either throw the textbooks at students and not have any lectures and then have ALL students sit for the exact same examination on the material OR have tele-lectures and have all the students learn from the same professor, teaching the same material and then once again have ALL the students sitting for the exact same examination. It's doable, imho. THEN we can really streamline the curriculum into a homogenous unit. Once clinic time comes that kind of gets blown out of the water, unless once again it's done in a telemedicine type environment.
Until that happens, every school, and every student will have a different academic experience based on who is teaching them and their learning and study style.
Biochemistry taught at Yale is likely different than Biochemistry taught at the local community college. Even though they may use the same textbook. Poeple at the community college may even learn it better because fewer go to the community college type setting and the teacher may be more open to one on one teaching than the world renown "expert" teaching at Yale.
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I believe that some schools are better than others, but that this has only limited effect. The good students will find a way to learn regardless. Strong work ethic, respect for others, responsibility to learn what is needed, and professional demeanor were probably learned well before the student even went to pod school.
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Sorry to say, but in some cases, even the best students with the best training fail to represent our profession very well. It's not more or less likely, based on education and training, all the time I'm afraid.
Excellent point. It demonstrates to me the importance of the ABPS staying the course. Although not perfect, pass rates are consistent and perhaps are both a canary in the mine and a place where (not the goal or intention of the ABPS IMO) some sort of protection kicks in for the public. If these people who fail qualification or certification are limited for hospital access/privileges, patient safety may be slightly better. If they(ABPS) were to cave to pressure to hand these individuals off to the healthcare system it would bedlam with the only protection then being the state boards and litigation.
My feeling and again a personal opinion the major cause of these lower pass rates is student selection at some of the schools or not having a system that can salvage tthe weaker entering student. The ethical question is do the schools really do justice to a person that has so much stacked against them when they accept them? Yes a few rally but the rest are sentenced to a life of failures, student loan debt, are a safety concern to the public, and an anchor to the profession. Not harsh just cold reality.
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Agree 100%. Anecdotally, we had a guy in our class who repeated 1st year THREE times. He then transferred to the California school and failed out after he repeated the first year AGAIN. C'mon, really?
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Absolutely. Even the best surgeon or clinician can have unethical practices. I should have chosen my words a little more carefully. Our profession is one currently striving for legitimacy and the APMA's favorite word, "parity". Borderline students are really contributing more to the disconnect or lack of parity between pod and allo students than they are failing to represent our profession once out in practice. But our education and training standards are just as important as practice standards when it comes to parity. Again, Kidsfeet is right in than anyone can embarrass us once they are a practitioner, but in the medical community (more so the political arena) 20% attrition and sub 90% pass rate on a board exam that is probably easier than the USMLE looks just as bad as someone overbilling Medicare.
In all reality I think Creflo nailed it in regards to the balance between school and student responsibility. And Podfather is right that the real difference in a lot of the pass rates is student selection. I've had that conversation with janv before. But I will keep getting Ankle Breaker riled up because SDN was getting really really boring...
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That is why I am fine with less residencies than students. Unfortunately the Residency Director's need to work as gate keepers to prevent the hand-off
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I don't like being the voice of reason around these parts, but here goes...
The thing that drives me crazy is this crap about part I scores. Who cares? You are SUPPOSED to pass. It is pass/fail, it means NOTHING. MINIMAL competency. It means you learned some general biochem and pharm and anatomy. Whoop dee doo. The number that is never discussed is part II and III, as well as stuff like the ABPS Foot Surgery Qualification Exam. What do higher rates on these tests mean?----
--You were well trained academically for your inital podiatric education
--You were placed into a good residency that furthered your training and honed your skills
These are the numbers that should be evaluated. Talking about Part I instead of II and III is like a Finance major talking about high grades in Intro to Marketing and Intro to Finance. WHO CARES, I want to know how you did in Fixed Income Securities and Bonds & Futures.
And in regards to this stuff about how it is ALL on the student, why don't you say that to the faculty and see what they have to say. Lets give them the respect and credit they deserve. Anklebreaker, maybe you can learn how to read an MRI with just a book, but I am not sure I can, and I am near the top of my class. And the same teachers for 40 years?
Maybe fellow posters can then contribute their schools rates, here is DMU's from their website:
The first-time pass rate on Part II of the National Board Exam for the CPMS Class of 2010 was 93% compared to the national pass rate of 83%.--Representing your clinical training at your school in year 3 and externships in year 4
The pass rate for the June 2010 administration of Part III of the National Board Exam for CPMS graduates was 100% compared to the national pass rate of 89%--Representing your residency training
The American Board of Podiatric Surgery recently released the first-time pass rates for the Foot Surgery Qualification Exam. From 2005-2009 the pass rate for CPMS graduates was 89% compared to 76% for graduates of other colleges of podiatric medicine.Representing your residency training
The thing that drives me crazy is this crap about part I scores. Who cares? You are SUPPOSED to pass. It is pass/fail, it means NOTHING. MINIMAL competency. It means you learned some general biochem and pharm and anatomy. Whoop dee doo. The number that is never discussed is part II and III, as well as stuff like the ABPS Foot Surgery Qualification Exam. What do higher rates on these tests mean?----
--You were well trained academically for your inital podiatric education
--You were placed into a good residency that furthered your training and honed your skills
These are the numbers that should be evaluated. Talking about Part I instead of II and III is like a Finance major talking about high grades in Intro to Marketing and Intro to Finance. WHO CARES, I want to know how you did in Fixed Income Securities and Bonds & Futures.
And in regards to this stuff about how it is ALL on the student, why don't you say that to the faculty and see what they have to say. Lets give them the respect and credit they deserve. Anklebreaker, maybe you can learn how to read an MRI with just a book, but I am not sure I can, and I am near the top of my class. And the same teachers for 40 years?
Maybe fellow posters can then contribute their schools rates, here is DMU's from their website:
The first-time pass rate on Part II of the National Board Exam for the CPMS Class of 2010 was 93% compared to the national pass rate of 83%.--Representing your clinical training at your school in year 3 and externships in year 4
The pass rate for the June 2010 administration of Part III of the National Board Exam for CPMS graduates was 100% compared to the national pass rate of 89%--Representing your residency training
The American Board of Podiatric Surgery recently released the first-time pass rates for the Foot Surgery Qualification Exam. From 2005-2009 the pass rate for CPMS graduates was 89% compared to 76% for graduates of other colleges of podiatric medicine.Representing your residency training
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Well I didn't say the schools had zero influence but at some point (I'd say after classes) you can either choose to be a passive or active learner. Most likely the former group will be the first to criticize their school for their failures rather than ask themselves they failed themselves.
You're not addressing the fact that there could be many reasons why one school matches 100% and another 90%. You assume they are purely based on differences in the schools training and not taking into account the biggest variable, the student.
EDIT: Just realized I'm not talking with a 4th year student. I was wondering why he/she was so loyal to their school. A lot changes once you start rotating, for one you can better judge the quality of your education.
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What you must realise is that this is a cycle. A school gets lucky and gets the best students for a couple of years in a row. The students really excel at the school, regardless of who teaches them (and if they have excellent professors, even more so), and then of course get the most competitive programs. They also pass all the boards with flying colors and their PD and attendings love them. Now you have anyone applying to podiatry school looking at the number and looking at these posts. The ones that have shined in undergrad want to go to the "best" school and the cycle continues. Every few years, the cycle shifts to another school. When I was coming through, it was Temple vs. Scholl. Keep that in mind.
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I hear DMU is the best podiatry school in the nation. Discuss!
---also Dtrack, you mentioned something earlier about opening cores at programs and how they act as student 'pipelines' into those residencies. I dont believe this is quite as wonderful of an idea as you might think it is.....and ill use your DMC reference as an example
Many of their residents feel doing multi-month cores, whether podiatry or mixed with internal med/gen surg/ER etc, is a terrible idea and advice against using so much of your time at one location. One of them gave an example of a classmate who did a core there, hated it, and was pissed he blew 3 months there. Another used themselves as an example, and how he wished he had went to other programs so that he had more options come interview/rank day. They believe that the reason so many DMU students have been placed there in the past is purely coincidental and by luck of the draw during match day. for example DMC didnt match a single dmu student this year.
if students from other schools discovered that program X only/usually took students from school Y, they wouldnt bother clerking/interviewing there. That program would miss the chance to have great students from all the schools rotate through. If I thought DMC favored DMU-core kids so much i wouldnt have rotated with them. I knew this wasnt true though, as scholls and AZ do cores there as well, and they have current residents from multiple schools. (including 2 barry students *gasp!*)
---also Dtrack, you mentioned something earlier about opening cores at programs and how they act as student 'pipelines' into those residencies. I dont believe this is quite as wonderful of an idea as you might think it is.....and ill use your DMC reference as an example
Many of their residents feel doing multi-month cores, whether podiatry or mixed with internal med/gen surg/ER etc, is a terrible idea and advice against using so much of your time at one location. One of them gave an example of a classmate who did a core there, hated it, and was pissed he blew 3 months there. Another used themselves as an example, and how he wished he had went to other programs so that he had more options come interview/rank day. They believe that the reason so many DMU students have been placed there in the past is purely coincidental and by luck of the draw during match day. for example DMC didnt match a single dmu student this year.
if students from other schools discovered that program X only/usually took students from school Y, they wouldnt bother clerking/interviewing there. That program would miss the chance to have great students from all the schools rotate through. If I thought DMC favored DMU-core kids so much i wouldnt have rotated with them. I knew this wasnt true though, as scholls and AZ do cores there as well, and they have current residents from multiple schools. (including 2 barry students *gasp!*)
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I don't think that is the case anymore. In your time (not trying to be disrespectful) they were the only kids on the block. Now there are newer schools, and some try harder than others. Why? Because they have to. Right now you if you go out and ask any pod what are the good schools, they say temple, scholl or new york, because they are the only ones they know. My biggest complaint of one of the schools I interviewed at was I felt like they were coasting on their reputation. A reputation built by producing great doctors, but also built on being one of the few options. Look at some of the older schools facilities vs. the newer schools. HUGE difference. Is it everything? No, but it is a big deal. Its like high school football star choosing between Notre Dame and Ohio State. Have you seen ND's facilities? Oh but their reputation....kids these days don't care. Every big football powerhouse sinks a ton of money into facilities and the athletes follow. Crap, I got off topic and lost my train of thought.
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As far as I'm aware parts 2 and 3 are minimal competency as well
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Sure, but lets at least compare schools based on podiatric related stuff, not micro and biochem.
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that's fair enough, but what would be even better is NUMERICAL scoring.
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absolutely. I want the chance to distinguish myself from others based on my score. For the time being, there are ways to evaluate, some better than others. Lets get some transparency. I think we can all agree on this.
Lets get back to the match. Lets not get in a tizzy until the scramble is done. When all the chairs are full and some are left standing, then we can maybe make some blanket statements about schools concerning this years class.
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Part I, II, III Board "scores" are for one thing and one thing alone. Licensing. It is national, so having a numerical score doesn't really make a whole lot of sense imho, since every state would have to have the same percentage to pass, which is why it's pass/fail to begin with. You NEED to pass these examination to eventually get a license to practice podiatric medicine and surgery in the United States. Realistically, with multi-year programs now, they need all their residents to be able to attain a full license to practice or they will lose a resident(s). Can you still get a "temporary" license after your first year of residency these days? I guess that's the only variable.
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UW66 said:
I get the argument against core rotations. But to say that kids are matching anywhere because of the "luck" of the draw is a little bold. Directors rank students, students rank programs. If students perform well during the rotation, and those students like the program, they will match. If DMC took a single resident then I could see some "luck" involved, but they don't. INOVA is a good program. If the student is smart, did their due diligence in researching/visiting the program, and works hard then I would think that more often then not (of course on SDN we use exceptions so maybe nobody will buy this) a 3 month rotation could give you a slight advantage over the guy who was at INOVA for a month. Of course, if the guy who was there for 1 month is just that much better than you then of course, 3 months were wasted.
UNVME2 said:
I tried to address it. Nobody can answer the question. Saying, "the student" is different isn't really an answer. Why is the student different? And why do the same schools seem to attract more of these "students"? I think the student is different because they were taught/prepared for rotations and the match differently.
air bud said:
The material in Part I isn't as important as the material in the rest of the board exams. BUT, if you do not pass Part I, the FIRST TIME, you are already at a slight disadvantage when compared to those who did. That is what makes Part I important. Maybe Podfather could comment, but from directors/attendings I've talked to it just doesn't look good. One said it made him more hesitant when evaluating the student.
PodunkUDPM said:
👍 Still don't get why the exams aren't scored
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The student who is willing to go to a school despite the fact that it's in the middle of cornville is gonna be more serious about their studies than the student who went to a major metropolitan area because of the nightlife. Just a thought.
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i had typed up an explanation but realized its really just a matter of getting out there, and talking to residents/attendings in person. No amount of 3rd hand information from SDN will really sway you is my guess. Youll see whats going on in a year+ when youre out and about.
bottom line. Before you sign up for any multi month cores dtrack, id know for damn sure its what you want. know what youre getting into, know what youre giving up, and know that the program is everything you want from a program before you show up on day 1.
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Well, Just so I can throw my 2 cents in. (and it will be brief) I think its on both the school and the student. The school has to provide the education and the student has to be willing to work at learning this information. I feel sometimes though that this responsibility leans more on the student b/c ultimately its up to them wether or not they work hard to achieve success.
But back on the match, we got an email today. After the scramble so far nycpm has matched all but 1 student. Not sure on what programs they all matched at.
But back on the match, we got an email today. After the scramble so far nycpm has matched all but 1 student. Not sure on what programs they all matched at.
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Barry is the best school. In fact, West Penn is opening up 60 new spots in order to take the entire graduating class starting next year.
For real, dtrack told me.
For real, dtrack told me.
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real hypothetical here, but I'm curious... what are the repercussions if an applicant that matched refused to sign with that program and entered the scramble?
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I don't think they can. When you go into the CASPR process, I believe you sign a document stating you will abide by the CASPR rules including going where you are matched to. I guess you can get there and quit, but that won't help you in until next year's match. Why would you rank a program if you wouldn't intend on going there if you match with it, anyway?
Another program is not permitted to take you if you matched. However, I knew a sharp student a few years ago when there were more positions than graduates who decided not to interview and enter the scramble. He landed a top program. He called several programs(prior to match day), sent his information and said if you do not fill your spots I am available.
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Wow, that is sharp! Good for him.
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Can one be offered a residency without filling out the CASPR?
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The only way this can happen is if the program does not participate in CASPR/CRIP. The ones that do participate are bound by regs that require them to go through the process. I suppose after the match, all bets are off, but I'm not so sure about that either.
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I was just wondering what they would do really. If the program would take legal action against the individual or what? Match just doesn't really seem as final as I thought it would.
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Is there any info on the four that dropped out for good? Were they holdovers from last time or current students?
If a program takes a resident who matched at another program, they are in jeopardy of losing their accreditation.
In the case where a resident doesn't honor the match, the program could, I guess, sue to force the placed applicant to take the position but they would probably not want someone who doesn't want to be there. We selected a resident a few years ago who had completed a PPMR 2 years before who wanted a PSR-24. He matched with us and we forwarded all of the necessary information. He said he was excited to start. We purchased his malpractice coverage, labcoats, and obtained a pager for him. Then this jerk doesn't show for orientation, doesn't return our calls, and essentially never communicates with us. We didn't fill the position since it was so long after the match and scramble. This guy cost another student a position in a great surgical residency. He didn't take another program.
Later, I was talking to a director of another top program and guess what? This guy did the same to him the year before. So we figured the kid was just crazy and laughed how we missed it during his interviews.
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I heard that most NYCPM students get murdered in their first 3 years because Harlem is so unsafe. That must be why they did so well. Most of their students were killed off, resulting in a higher percentage matching.
