2011 Match

[Feli]

...a great accomplishment in a class of 100+ graduates!

I thought we are trying to talk about solutions to the residency shortage, not causes

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[Feli]

.... Let's see who is associated with an MD/DO school: Temple Scholl DMU Western, Midwestern

Barry is at the same university with PA, DNP (doc nurse prac), etc etc etc programs (literally hundreds of grad and undergrad major/degree options). I'm obviously biased since I went there, but I don't necessarily think pod schools have to be with MD/DO programs. Barry still has fantastic clinical rotations which are, imho, greater than or equal to any pod school besides maybe Temple (but QOL in Miami >>> Philly lol). They built their new pod classroom and lab facilities shortly before I graduated, and it seats about 70 ppl. Their current CPME enrollment cap is about 65, so you know they're sure not planning on increasing incoming pod class sizes anytime soon.

First and foremost, you just need the support of a major university to share costs like faculty, facilities, library, staff, property, etc. If you only get 40 good apps, take 40... other degree programs in the university will offset the lower profits that year. However, if you are a stand alone pod school, you can't do that: if there's not enough good apps, you are forced to take garbage in those years in order to keep paying the bills.

 

[347932]

isn't harvard the scholl of medicine?

lmao!

 

[doc1107]

The way I see it, why do we need any new regulation? Isn't there already a regulation in place, called.... the survival of the fittest?

Strong students get residencies.

The only thing I think should be changed would be changing the law a little or retain a few 24 month programs. Look at MD/DO, not everyone can get into a Neurosurgery, Cardio Thoracic, Radiology, etc and that is a GOOD THING. And look at Dental, not everyone can be a OMF surgeon.

So Pod needs a branch of "general practitioner" of Pod for all the ones that didn't get residencies. Not to sound harsh, but the majority didn't get it because they are just not up to par.

 

[Sig Savant]

if there's not enough good apps, you are forced to take garbage in those years in order to keep paying the bills.

Hopefully you get enough quality applicants to not have to take any garbage. I think this fluctuates year to year, and depends on how much people bad talk a school on a given year on SDN

On residencies, NY has now placed everyone. How short will the class fall this year, and how many people do you think will roll over to next year's match? (Which surprisingly doesn't have a shortage on paper)

 

[347932]

The way I see it, why do we need any new regulation? Isn't there already a regulation in place, called.... the survival of the fittest?

Strong students get residencies.

The only thing I think should be changed would be changing the law a little or retain a few 24 month programs. Look at MD/DO, not everyone can get into a Neurosurgery, Cardio Thoracic, Radiology, etc and that is a GOOD THING. And look at Dental, not everyone can be a OMF surgeon.

So Pod needs a branch of "general practitioner" of Pod for all the ones that didn't get residencies. Not to sound harsh, but the majority didn't get it because they are just not up to par.

The argument here is that you can't really survive as a podiatrist if you aren't at least somewhat of a surgeon. Many hospitals now require ABPS status to maintain privileges...etc.

A Podiatric Surgeon can do anything a non surgically trained podaitrist does, whereas an FP doesn't see complex neuro cases and a neurosurgeon doesn't take care of high blood pressure, they can still both make a living at what they do.

Right or wrong, that's the way it is.

 

[Makaveliforever]

The way I see it, why do we need any new regulation? Isn't there already a regulation in place, called.... the survival of the fittest?

Strong students get residencies.

The only thing I think should be changed would be changing the law a little or retain a few 24 month programs. Look at MD/DO, not everyone can get into a Neurosurgery, Cardio Thoracic, Radiology, etc and that is a GOOD THING. And look at Dental, not everyone can be a OMF surgeon.

So Pod needs a branch of "general practitioner" of Pod for all the ones that didn't get residencies. Not to sound harsh, but the majority didn't get it because they are just not up to par.

This is such a poor argument. Not every student who matched is a "good student" or a student "up to par (the way you phrased it)". This whole process sucks for some people as some may be the #3 at a program when they accept 2, and this may happen at many of their programs. Programs don't just pick based on students who are "up to par"....they look at personality, grades and sometimes believe it or not...programs are biased towards looks, race, gender, familiarity with the student/student's family and the list goes on and on. I think that the profession has done itself a disservice accepting so many students and not having enough residencies available for them. If you make it through school, pass boards etc... you should be awarded a residency somewhere. And just so you don't think im some idiot complaining b/c I didn't get a residency....I have one. I just am speaking up for those who may not be as fortunate AT THE MOMENT who are having a difficult time finding a job. I just know it sucks to be categorized and have a statement made that they are not "up to par"..... please be more careful with your choice of words.

 

[TheMcBride]

The higher-ups did ignore this issue. If they didn't then they should have been at least smart enough to put a cap on each school's incoming classes 2-3 years ago. They didn't...

Now they are addressing the issue and they are putting caps on schools. Especially schools that have large class sizes.

It does take time to generate residency programs. No one is arguing that point. BUT they could have minimized the damage by putting caps on schools 2-3 years ago.

Putting caps and generating new residency programs sounds like a real nice plan. That way nobody will get there feelings hurt and everybody gets to grow up and be a doctor and even a surgeon. I do think it's unfortunate that some people go through 4 years of pod school and may not match a program, but its a necessary way of weeding people out that don't belong. Lets face it, not every person that graduates from pod school deserves to become a surgeon. Traditional medical students don't match programs all the time. They are forced to do transitional years until they can match a program. Also surgical residents that are MD's get fired when their directors feel they are not performing adequately in the OR. God forbid we start to take our profession that seriously. Someones feeling might get hurt.

I'm sick of seeing bad students rotate though our progam. Pod students need to suck it up and start to work harder. They need good grades, they need to be top in their class, they need to know how to answer academic questions, and they need to know how to talk to people. If students can't do these thing then they are not going to match and ultimately won't become doctors and surgeons. Taking our profession to the next level is going to require people at all levels; students, residents, and attendings to all actually grow a pair.

 

[347932]

I'm sick of seeing bad students rotate though our progam. Pod students need to suck it up and start to work harder. They need good grades, they need to be top in their class, they need to know how to answer academic questions, and they need to know how to talk to people. If students can't do these thing then they are not going to match and ultimately won't become doctors and surgeons. Taking our profession to the next level is going to require people at all levels; students, residents, and attendings to all actually grow a pair.

This is an argument made by EVERY residency director at the medical school/teaching hospital where I am on staff at. This is not exclusive to podiatry, but since we are podiatrists, we hear about our own.

Not everyone can be at the top of their class. I'm interested to know more about how you perceive all of the above "grow a pair". Please elaborate a bit more.

 

[janV88]

Two years ago for the 2010 cycle for for 2011? In order for it to really make a difference, we would have to know SIX years ahead of the shortage so that a cap could be placed on the schools for the upcoming year so they could limit their incoming year of applicants.

Shortage in May 2011? That class matriculated in Sept 2007. A cap would have to be in place by Sept 2006 (applications opened then). There would need to be meetings and decisions in place for CPME to put a cap/lower a cap. That would have to start around Sept 2005, if not earlier.

Kidsfeet is DEAD ON. It is a pendulum. Limit applications in 2012 for the 2016 cycle? Who knows what will happen in the next few years, if we will have more spots than now. If we open more spots, and limit applicants, there will be a surplus again in 2016, programs will close, and then there will be another shortage down the road.

What possessed the schools to take so many students that there would be ~150 more graduates than spots? Was there any sign whatsoever of an increase in residencies?

They should have looked at the average attrition of the past years, and slowly increased their capacity and readjusting based on projected residencies. The fact that even with attrition there were ~150 more graduates than residency spots (before the CPME scrambled to approve a bunch of spots) shows that there was a disconnect between the schools and residencies. For the past few years, we have had a pretty stable number of residency spots...~500. They should have known better.

And yes the number of residency spots does change quite often but can you show me any data that told the schools that there would be a massive increase in residency spots? Or can you show me any data that shows a massive drop in residency positions since 2005(the year before class of 2010 matriculated - first class of the shortage)? If not, then what were the schools using to gauge how many students they should have taken? If you can show me this data then I will admit that I am wrong.

Also remember that this is not the first time we have had a residency shortage. The higher ups did not learn from their previous mistakes. I only hope that from now on, they will be more responsible.

It doesn't make sense though for an independent school to join a med school, at least not from the people raking in the money. It makes sense to everyone else though. Still, at NY, most of our faculty come from Mt. Sinai or Columbia, so I don't feel that there are too many differences to an individual student

PS I feel like this thread has been a rollercoaster of every topic ever on SDN

It's like getting a roommate. You share the overhead so it's cheaper for everyone. If it's cheaper to run a school then more money can be spent on extras, or the savings can be passed onto the students

EDIT:
I found this thread from 2007 about the residency shortage. It's an interesting read. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=471635

 

[Sig Savant]

Just remember when we say "schools" that one school does not care what another is doing. School A may take 20 more students than last year while school B takes 20 less, and it has just worked in the past. NY took less students some years than others, someone said Ohio is going to take less this year; I don't think the schools meet and decide a total number to accept, they are 9 groups acting independently.

I agree with you janV, but it doesn't work like we want it to or like it should.

 

[Podfather]

Putting caps and generating new residency programs sounds like a real nice plan. That way nobody will get there feelings hurt and everybody gets to grow up and be a doctor and even a surgeon. I do think it's unfortunate that some people go through 4 years of pod school and may not match a program, but its a necessary way of weeding people out that don't belong. Lets face it, not every person that graduates from pod school deserves to become a surgeon. Traditional medical students don't match programs all the time. They are forced to do transitional years until they can match a program. Also surgical residents that are MD's get fired when their directors feel they are not performing adequately in the OR. God forbid we start to take our profession that seriously. Someones feeling might get hurt.

I'm sick of seeing bad students rotate though our progam. Pod students need to suck it up and start to work harder. They need good grades, they need to be top in their class, they need to know how to answer academic questions, and they need to know how to talk to people. If students can't do these thing then they are not going to match and ultimately won't become doctors and surgeons. Taking our profession to the next level is going to require people at all levels; students, residents, and attendings to all actually grow a pair.

Ok Mr. Evolution (oh from your post you may not believe in it). Your biggest flaw in your concept is within your own post. Medical students who do not match do a transitional year until they do. DPMs do not have this option. If they don't match they can practice in the one or two states that do not have a residency requirement or shadow a DPM for free or work another non physician job and try again. Their student loans do not go away and get worse. Pick yourself up by your own boot strap people talk tough until they are the one who is treated unfairly. Then they attack the system.

 

[Podfather]

What possessed the schools to take so many students that there would be ~150 more graduates than spots? Was there any sign whatsoever of an increase in residencies?

They should have looked at the average attrition of the past years, and slowly increased their capacity and readjusting based on projected residencies. The fact that even with attrition there were ~150 more graduates than residency spots (before the CPME scrambled to approve a bunch of spots) shows that there was a disconnect between the schools and residencies. For the past few years, we have had a pretty stable number of residency spots...~500. They should have known better.

And yes the number of residency spots does change quite often but can you show me any data that told the schools that there would be a massive increase in residency spots? Or can you show me any data that shows a massive drop in residency positions since 2005(the year before class of 2010 matriculated - first class of the shortage)? If not, then what were the schools using to gauge how many students they should have taken? If you can show me this data then I will admit that I am wrong.

Also remember that this is not the first time we have had a residency shortage. The higher ups did not learn from their previous mistakes. I only hope that from now on, they will be more responsible.





It's like getting a roommate. You share the overhead so it's cheaper for everyone. If it's cheaper to run a school then more money can be spent on extras, or the savings can be passed onto the students

EDIT:
I found this thread from 2007 about the residency shortage. It's an interesting read. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=471635

As you can see from my posts I certainly point the finger at the schools. However the original residency issue was not the school's fault. My generation had a 50% residency placement rate but remember residency training for DPMs was a new concept at that time (the mid 80s). Just a decade before, people graduated and went right into practice. It was when we moved into surgery and hospital care of non-palliative problems that the profession saw a need for DPMs to have post-graduate training. At that juncture we should have followed the dentists and had general DPMs and a few who pursued post graduate training in surgery and other more involved aspects of our profession. Instead egos wouldn't permit that so everyone had to be the same. That's when the haves and have nots problem developed. Preceptorships (unregulated with good and bad ones), MIS surgery all spawned for the have nots. Where the schools failed is once we chose that course and got to a point where everyone had a residency they did nothing to stabilize the situation and hence here we are again but for different reasons

 

[347932]

What possessed the schools to take so many students that there would be ~150 more graduates than spots?

Making money perhaps?

 

[Makaveliforever]

Ok Mr. Evolution (oh from your post you may not believe in it). Your biggest flaw in your concept is within your own post. Medical students who do not match do a transitional year until they do. DPMs do not have this option. If they don't match they can practice in the one or two states that do not have a residency requirement or shadow a DPM for free or work another non physician job and try again. Their student loans do not go away and get worse. Pick yourself up by your own boot strap people talk tough until they are the one who is treated unfairly. Then they attack the system.

Couldn't agree with you more. A few of my good friends who are decent students (not the top nor the bottom of the class) have not matched and are in danger of not having a residency. They worked hard for 4 years, passed their exams, rotated through clincs and did externship....yet no residency and no path for them....they're just thrown into the garbage with NO help. It's funny that someone who is not in their shoes can come out and say things as was done by the poster in which you responded to. Does he ever take into account that it's HIS JOB as a resident to help a student who he deems 'poor' and maybe help this profession by 'teaching them' vs knocking them down. I met so many residents like that one before who just complain and complain about everyone being stupid and whatnot....forgetting that at some point he was in that students shoes and may not have known as much and may have gotten lucky with someone teaching him in the past. Anyway, thank you Doctor for standing up for those, who right now are without a voice.

 

[Creflo]

As you can see from my posts I certainly point the finger at the schools. However the original residency issue was not the school's fault. My generation had a 50% residency placement rate but remember residency training for DPMs was a new concept at that time (the mid 80s). Just a decade before, people graduated and went right into practice. It was when we moved into surgery and hospital care of non-palliative problems that the profession saw a need for DPMs to have post-graduate training. At that juncture we should have followed the dentists and had general DPMs and a few who pursued post graduate training in surgery and other more involved aspects of our profession. Instead egos wouldn't permit that so everyone had to be the same. That's when the haves and have nots problem developed. Preceptorships (unregulated with good and bad ones), MIS surgery all spawned for the have nots. Where the schools failed is once we chose that course and got to a point where everyone had a residency they did nothing to stabilize the situation and hence here we are again but for different reasons

 

[347932]

...the schools failed is once we chose that course and got to a point where everyone had a residency they did nothing to stabilize the situation and hence here we are again but for different reasons

I don't want to argue with you and agree with your multiple posts, so please don't think I'm trying to fight here.

My problem with this statement is that the residency position numbers are in constant flux. As are the number of applicants to the schools and also how many of those applicants actually make it through the curriculum, pass boards...etc. Back to my pendulum analogy. How do you account statistically for this flux? So a few years ago there were too many residencies and a smaller student pool to boot. Now we have the same problem we had when I was coming through, in that there aren't enough residencies, EVEN THOUGH they are ALL surgical, which was not the case in the past. So realistically, at this point we have more trained Podiatric Surgeons than ever before. The other thing to throw in the hat is why exactly did all those states suddenly require residencies for licensure?

 

[Podfather]

I don't want to argue with you and agree with your multiple posts, so please don't think I'm trying to fight here.

No Problem. Everything I say is my OPINION and although I believe I am ALWAYS right believe it or not sometimes that's not the case. Just ask my wife LOL.

My problem with this statement is that the residency position numbers are in constant flux.


I would argue that recently that is not the case. We did lose some programs due to hospital closings and when there were more positions than students. IMO many that closed had issues. I loved the fact that there were programs where a director who for a decade sat in an office all day while residents busted nails and ulcers then did not fill their positions and he/she suddenly was trying to find their tissue nipper for the first time in years. Simply loved that. The constant changing of the residency categories and CPME micromanagement/trauma/abuse makes some say it's just not worth it and they close. But the programs that stuck around are pretty solid and I would say the number is stable and growing slightly with the genesis kick.

As are the number of applicants to the schools and also how many of those applicants actually make it through the curriculum, pass boards...etc.

The pendulum is a result of the instability. Word goes out that you may not get a residency and the brightest say wait a minute I can't risk the money and time not to match. So they go into another field or if podiatry was a backup plan a foreign MD school. So what happens the schools rarely lower class size by choice and a couple new schools show up and we are forced to accept some interesting applicants who then drive the discussion for 10 years as they fail NBPME 1 and 2, do not match (even in a residency surplus), fail board qual, and default on their loans. Then we spend 5 years blaming NBPME, ABPS, the residencies,etc. when these people should have never been accepted. The schools claim the NBPME and ABPS are making the exams harder which is far from the truth. But hey what can they say? We took suboptimal applicants to pay the bills. We had a cycle like that just a few years ago and you can directly correlate that with the NBPME fail rates and eventually ABPS board qual rates.



Back to my pendulum analogy. How do you account statistically for this flux? So a few years ago there were too many residencies and a smaller student pool to boot. Now we have the same problem we had when I was coming through, in that there aren't enough residencies, EVEN THOUGH they are ALL surgical, which was not the case in the past. So realistically, at this point we have more trained Podiatric Surgeons than ever before.

Since the powers to be believe that they can make everyone the same (a podiatrist is a podiatrist BS) and not accept the dental model, yes on paper we have more 3 year trained (but not the same regardless what the CPME/APMA says) than ever. So why hasn't the ABPS pass rates drastically gone up? I can assure you the process has not changed and exam is psychmetrically evaluated and adjusted (curved) post exam. The reasons are simple we take a certain number of students each year that do not belong in professional school. The schools will not admit it but the students see it, the residency directors face it and the NBPME/ABPS are forced to cull the herd. Focus on quality residency training. Stabilize those programs and quit trying for quantity but instead quality. Then accept students to fill those positions (accounting for some attrition). Competition will increase since there will be less entry positions and the residencies will be good and therefore attract more to the field. We take the knees out of the ortho arguments of inferior training and those students could take and pass USMLE and shut them up. Geez when we had a couple of schools a few years ago with 30-40% fail rates for part 2 and 50% fail rates for board qual and people were pushing for students to take USMLE. I needed to double up on my Nexium.
The other thing to throw in the hat is why exactly did all those states suddenly require residencies for licensure?

Since the schools all admit they no longer train graduates to practice but rather to enter residency then the states need to protect the public with the residency requirement.

 

[janV88]

I don't think the schools meet and decide a total number to accept, they are 9 groups acting independently.

You're right. A lot of the blame lies with the higher ups. There are caps in place that are drastically over the number of residency positions...this shouldn't be the case.

However the original residency issue was not the school's fault. My generation had a 50% residency placement rate but remember residency training for DPMs was a new concept at that time (the mid 80s).

I don't know why I didn't make that connection, my mistake. Regardless, the goal was to have 100% residency trained podiatrists and because the problem was given priority, the higher ups have not been able to fulfill that goal.

Making money perhaps?

That's definitely a possibility

 

[HaimFeldman]

For those of you that aren't paying attention, HaimFeldman is simply trying to cause problems. Again, NYCPM has beat the field in a statistic, this time residency matching, and the only thing anyone can come back with is the safety of the neighborhood, as I outlined in my last string of posts here. To reiterate, the area is safe. Get something better to try to come back with next time.

I thought the use of hyperbole in suggesting most students at NYCPM are murdered in their first three years was enough, but I'll be sure to use some type of sarcasm indicator next time for the knee-jerk reactionaries. I happened to be mocking the "NYCPM is unsafe" sentiment. Check the other threads where I've commented on NYC safety.

 

[handoverfist77]

Ok Mr. Evolution (oh from your post you may not believe in it). Your biggest flaw in your concept is within your own post. Medical students who do not match do a transitional year until they do. DPMs do not have this option. .

The AAPPM has created a Postgraduate Preceptorship Program for those graduates who do not match. Graduates will be guided through a 10 month curriculum and have an invaluable experience in a podiatry practice.

 

[Podfather]

The AAPPM has created a Postgraduate Preceptorship Program for those graduates who do not match. Graduates will be guided through a 10 month curriculum and have an invaluable experience in a podiatry practice.

Although I applaud AAPPM for their action, it's not the same as a transitional year in medicine where you can hone your skills as a Physician. How much will these preceptors be paid? Health insurance? Who will provide oversight(since there is no approval or review required) to prevent possible use of these people as over educated podiatric assistants?

Simply put a business year in wait compared to medical education/training are hardly the same. However it's something and I wish rather than everyone answering what these unmatched kids can do with terms like future residency genesis they should have some immediate plan to help those who passed NBPME 1 and 2 and graduated get some transitional training and pay. Here is where IMO APMA/CPME and the schools have failed

 

[PADPM]

Although I applaud AAPPM for their action, it's not the same as a transitional year in medicine where you can hone your skills as a Physician. How much will these preceptors be paid? Health insurance? Who will provide oversight(since there is no approval or review required) to prevent possible use of these people as over educated podiatric assistants?

Simply put a business year in wait compared to medical education/training are hardly the same. However it's something and I wish rather than everyone answering what these unmatched kids can do with terms like future residency genesis they should have some immediate plan to help those who passed NBPME 1 and 2 and graduated get some transitional training and pay. Here is where IMO APMA/CPME and the schools have failed

I agree with Podfather. I applaud AAPPM for their efforts, but I'm curious regarding the logistics of the program. Since the new grad isn't really acting in the capacity of a true resident, he/she will really have to be licensed to practice, and without a residency in most states really can't "treat" patients. Since they can't be licensed without a residency, they will basically be observing for this entire period to remain "legal".

While observation is great, it has it's limits. To really succeed, you need to "see one, do one, teach one" (although you certainly need to "do" more than one). Observation is great, but nothing replaces hands-on experience.

Additionally, I'm afraid that the grads participating in these programs MAY have the potential of walking away with more practice management skills than clinical skills. And although practice management certainly is extremely important, in my opinion nothing is more important than patient care/clinical skills. Knowing how to make money is great, but knowing how to care for patients is my priority, and hopefully financial success will follow as an end result.

This is not a critique of the AAPPM program, just a few concerns, though admittedly, I don't know enough about the program to judge it fairly.

 

[oncogene]

Heading to INOVA-Fairfax! so pumped!

 

[347932]

Heading to INOVA-Fairfax! so pumped!

Congrats!

 

[TheBee]

There has to be a better way than waiting until a student has completed four years of podiatry school with passing grades to put a stop to their training and career, which is what essentially happens when they don't get a residency. I'm personally an advocate of schools enforcing more stringent guidelines for letting students go earlier in the process, although that won't help the issue of students who aren't at the bottom of the class (as was stated above). However I do think the fact schools hang on so tightly to students who aren't very motivated or acadmically-inclined bodes poorly for those students and our profession in the long run. I know that schools have a bottom line they need to meet, but what do you think about an APMA fund that subsidized schools somehow based on the attrition number?

Also a thought... I think pod students, residents, and early resident grads should be very involved and proactive with local pre-medical students. The best way to improve our student quality is getting the word out there about what we really do (wait, you don't just cut nails?) and recruiting the best talent to our profession. Pod students should visit their undergrad insitutions, and local docs open your offices to student visitors.

 

[air bud]

There has to be a better way than waiting until a student has completed four years of podiatry school with passing grades to put a stop to their training and career, which is what essentially happens when they don't get a residency. I'm personally an advocate of schools enforcing more stringent guidelines for letting students go earlier in the process, although that won't help the issue of students who aren't at the bottom of the class (as was stated above). However I do think the fact schools hang on so tightly to students who aren't very motivated or acadmically-inclined bodes poorly for those students and our profession in the long run. I know that schools have a bottom line they need to meet, but what do you think about an APMA fund that subsidized schools somehow based on the attrition number?

Also a thought... I think pod students, residents, and early resident grads should be very involved and proactive with local pre-medical students. The best way to improve our student quality is getting the word out there about what we really do (wait, you don't just cut nails?) and recruiting the best talent to our profession. Pod students should visit their undergrad insitutions, and local docs open your offices to student visitors.

I agree with everything you wrote except the subsidized part. Look at the government, this doesnt work and only gets abused.

The education of pre-med students is absolutely critical. I love re-opening wounds, so let me add this: people on here complain about "oh cry, nobody knows what a podiatrist is." Sure some of that is marketing to the public, but a big part is to students. This is one of the reasons why "I go to medical school" drives me crazy. Take the time to explain your schooling and your chosen profession instead of saying "oh it is just easier to say medical school"

 

[janV88]

I agree with everything you wrote except the subsidized part. Look at the government, this doesnt work and only gets abused.

The education of pre-med students is absolutely critical. I love re-opening wounds, so let me add this: people on here complain about "oh cry, nobody knows what a podiatrist is." Sure some of that is marketing to the public, but a big part is to students. This is one of the reasons why "I go to medical school" drives me crazy. Take the time to explain your schooling and your chosen profession instead of saying "oh it is just easier to say medical school"

 

[TheBee]

word!

 

[DrMushroomFoot]

Any updates on how many residency spots remaining? # students left without residencies? how many from each school? real reasons as to why some didnt match (other than the fact that there is a residency shortage)?



BTW I will ask Dr. Yoho regarding DMU's status.

 

[podpal]

Are you going to compare DMU to harvard again?

Oh Please do! It really makes the forum reading much more amusing!

 

[DrMushroomFoot]

Are you going to compare DMU to harvard again?

No point stating the obvious in multiple threads. I'll keep this thread clean and stick to the main topic.

 

[janV88]

Just got the official word regarding the Match at Scholl.

So to recap, 101 P4s participated in the Match. 28 went into the scramble.

So far 22 have found spots. Only 6 students are left unmatched.

There are a variety of reasons why students didn't match such as only ranking 2 or 3 programs, ranking programs out of their GPA range, not participating in mock interviews, etc. The administration is currently working on compiling the statistics and will use that to correct whatever mistakes happened.

 

[jonwill]

6 students going un-matched out of 101 is pretty good. So Scholl scrambled the most out of all the pod schools but in the end the majority of the P4s got a residency. Not too shabby.

Don't answer this question if it makes you feel uncomfortable but out of sheer curiosity, do you feel that the six students that didn't match were capable and deserving of residency spots (ie passed all their boards, etc) or were they "bottom dwellers" who are mentally unstable, did very poor academically, and had no business being in school in the first place?

 

[darazon]

Very interested in jonwill's question. Going unmatched is my worst fear....

 

[PodunkUDPM]

6 students going un-matched out of 101 is pretty good. So Scholl scrambled the most out of all the pod schools but in the end the majority of the P4s got a residency. Not too shabby.

This is all pending they passed part 2, right? As far as I know, "Official Results" have not been mailed out.

 

[podpal]

95/101 is really not that bad or disturbing though. Being what the admission standards are for podiatry school this is a pretty good result. I really feel for the students who didn't match.

YES IT IS THAT BAD. Especially if YOU are one of THOSE SIX!!! Every podiatry graduate should have the SAME CHANCE for quality residency training. PERIOD!

This disaster is making the entire profession look bad.

There is a great solution to this problem. Everyone gets a 2 year residency program. Everyone learns the bread and butter. Patients can expect some consistency from provider to provider. Those who want to get an extra year and focus primarily on surgery, go for it! But let the rest of us have general happy comprehensive practices. We'll refer the crazy nut stuff to you, gladly.

The growing, nonsurgical, conservative care needing elderly population will thank you.

 

[podpal]

Survival of the fittest podpal.

Just because students get accepted doesn't mean they deserve a residency spot. It definitely sucks but thats how the profession is right now. If the "powers that be" want to really ensure all graduates will get a residency spot they should increase the admission standards, only letting the more qualified applicants get accepted. That would cut the total amount of accepted podiatry students in half right there.

Would that totally solve the problem though? No it wouldn't. There are plenty of smart kids who are probably terrible with their hands. This could be bad news when they are going through their externships.

Are you saying that those who are bad with their hand skills should not get residency training? Do you think this hand skill issue should be explored prior to being accepted to pod school? Is this even a viable arguement for disallowing someone acceptance into a residency program?

Can people be trained in hand skills? Are we born with these skills?

One final question...do you, by chance, play any musical instrument? Let's face it, those with talent with most musical instruments have good hand skills. We could make an arguement that prior to acceptance into pod school the student should be proficient in a musical instrument.

What do you think?

Do you seriously believe that after putting in 4 years toward a podiatry degree, going into major debt, and probably making sacrifices along the way, passing the Boards, that a student does NOT deserve post graduate training?

2 year programs solves the big problem. We could have nearly double the number of residency positions within a year!

 

[347932]

Are you saying that those who are bad with their hand skills should not get residency training? Do you think this hand skill issue should be explored prior to being accepted to pod school? Is this even a viable arguement for disallowing someone acceptance into a residency program?

Can people be trained in hand skills? Are we born with these skills?

One final question...do you, by chance, play any musical instrument? Let's face it, those with talent with most musical instruments have good hand skills. We could make an arguement that prior to acceptance into pod school the student should be proficient in a musical instrument.

What do you think?

Do you seriously believe that after putting in 4 years toward a podiatry degree, going into major debt, and probably making sacrifices along the way, passing the Boards, that a student does NOT deserve post graduate training?

2 year programs solves the big problem. We could have nearly double the number of residency positions within a year!

Podpal,

Think about this for a moment. Every podiatrist graduating today will almost certainly have surgical TRAINING. That doesn't make them a surgeon imho.

I take my role as a surgeon very seriously and really, the answer to some of your questions are that yes, manual dexterity should be a prerequisite to becoming a good, if not great surgeon. You must have the foresight to be able to realize your own personal limitations, as well. In my 3 years I trained with about 30 different attendings and some of them had no business cutting on anyone. Ever. They did procedures that they had no business doing because hey "I'm a trained surgeon!".

My take on everyone training surgically is this. Residency is there to hone what ever skill you DO have but also more importantly, teaches you your own personal limitations in your skill set. There are those that CAN NOT transcend their limitations and residency should teach those people that. Whether you're Board Certified blah, blah, blah, you ought to know what your limitations are, and maybe, just maybe some that don't succeed in attaining a residency are some of the same who didn't display the foresight to be able to learn their own limitations.

I happen to play guitar and love my PS3. Does that make me a better surgeon. Who knows? Who really cares?

 

[podpal]

Podpal,

I happen to play guitar and love my PS3. Does that make me a better surgeon. Who knows? Who really cares?

Brilliant! You UNDERSTAND! My point exactly!!! Who cares if someone has amazing manual dexterity. The whole purpose of residency training is to teach the residents HOW TO USE THE SURGICAL EQUIPMENT so that they can become surgically adept. They don't have these opportunities in school.

Manual dexterity shouldn't be the single factor in denying someone a spot in a residency program. Everyone has to start somewhere. I'm sure that at one time you PRACTICED your guitar lessons, unless of course you are a musical genius like Johann. If so, I'd still make the case that podiatry residents should be accepted even if they aren't all musical genius's.

Residency is to LEARN SKILLS, not hone skills. Pod schools don't teach these skills. When I was in school there were 20 + students packed around a professor doing a nail avulsion. We were allowed to pile in to one hammertoe surgery. If you were tall enough you may have even got to see part of it!

 

[Lysfrancfurter]

Surgical skills are more than holding a scalpel blade and needleholder. It is the final product of years of studying medicine, pharmacology, anatomy, physiology, pathophysiology, etc. If I had Student A who understood what to do an OR, I would rather take a person who can comprehend everything relative to the procedure over Student B just because he can hold his hand steady for 10 minutes. Podiatry isnt a field of "technicians;" we are doctors.

Last time I checked, US dental schools dont select their students because of their manual dexterity. They are selected based off their GPA and DAT mostly. Its proven that good grades correlate with a good work ethic. Therefore if their surgical skills suck, they will work of them and make them better.

 

[347932]

Podpal,

You totally missed my point. Nevermind.

 

[janV88]

6 students going un-matched out of 101 is pretty good. So Scholl scrambled the most out of all the pod schools but in the end the majority of the P4s got a residency. Not too shabby.

I agree.

Scholl made up 22% of scramblers but also took 34% of the open slots. And that's assuming that all of the unmatched positions decided to take a scramble this year...which we all know does not happen since some programs would prefer to take no one than a scrambler so that 34% is probably a little higher.

How come none of the other schools have released this info to their students yet? Where are the numbers for Barry, Temple, NYCPM, DMU, OCPM, CSPM, AZPod? I know for a fact that all the schools scramble so where are the numbers people? How many do the rest of the schools still have unmatched?

 

[347932]

Although I agree with most of what you said here I think there are attendings who will be very upset with you if you are not very good with your hands. Yes you can't really treat somebody if you don't have the brains but you also can't fix the person's problem (if it requires surgery) if you're not good with your hands. It seems the best students have both. I wouldn't be shocked if some attendings favor your surgical skills over your brain though. It appears residency directors come from a variety of training and educational backgrounds which may shape what they are looking for in a resident. This is just my opinion though. Maybe some current residents or attendings could sound off on this one.

A good surgeon can tell virtually right away whether someone is "handy" or not, when training residents. It's not a matter of whether they know the skills so much as just how their hands, arms and shoulders move and the position their elbows are in when they are cutting, suturing, whatever. There is an inherent talent in this I think. Doesn't mean someone who isn't inherently "handy" can't become a great surgeon, necessarily (although I've never seen a great surgeon who wasn't inherently "handy" myself). There is more to it than that, but being "handy" does have it's advantages in the learning process. Learning to hone that "handiness" is the real challenge.

I remember training one resident who thought she was the gift of all gifts to surgery. She was a butcher. And after three years of training she was still a butcher. I don't know if she just felt that we, as her attendings, didn't have anything useful to teach her regarding her technique, or that she was somehow above us right out of school, but she was anything but "handy" in the OR.

 

[jehjr]

I don't remember the exact numbers, but I think AZpod scrambled 8-ish. The last I heard, all but one had matched and that one had chosen to withdraw from the scramble with the intent of joining a new program that is supposed to open later this year. It sounded like the position was a sure thing pending the opening of the program, but details were pretty vague.

 

[jehjr]

Surgical skills are more than holding a scalpel blade and needleholder. It is the final product of years of studying medicine, pharmacology, anatomy, physiology, pathophysiology, etc. If I had Student A who understood what to do an OR, I would rather take a person who can comprehend everything relative to the procedure over Student B just because he can hold his hand steady for 10 minutes. Podiatry isnt a field of "technicians;" we are doctors.

Last time I checked, US dental schools dont select their students because of their manual dexterity. They are selected based off their GPA and DAT mostly. Its proven that good grades correlate with a good work ethic. Therefore if their surgical skills suck, they will work of them and make them better.

Ah....but the DAT does test for visual perception abilities--and for good reason. If you can't work using a mirror you are going to have a hard time as a dentist.

If surgical abilities are to be a prerequisite for podiatric practice, perhaps our admission test should screen for manual dexterity (never mind that it would be impractical and will probably never happen). It seems like there are some ethical issues in accepting the money of students who are perfectly capable of succeeding academically, but physically incapable of performing some of the basic functions of the profession.

 

[Lysfrancfurter]

The point is that we all aren't cut out to be "surgeons," but we are all cut out to be experts in lower limb medicine.

Residency is called a PMS for a reason: its medicine and surgery. Lets keep those 24 month residencies for those who have no interest in surgery. Our healthcare system still needs doctors to evaluate and manage patients.

We need to continue to screen for academically talented students with GPA and MCAT. Let the residencies screen their externs for those who can suture and dissect. It is definitely not the job of the schools. Their sole goal is to prepare students to handle the responsibilities as a resident. Allow students to fight for good surgical training by proving themselves with grades and great clinical evaluations at externships.

A typical podiatrist will have surgery comprise 25% of his/her practice. Let not forget to teach/apply/reinforce biomechanics, orthotics, internal medicine, practice management, and conservative methods in our residencies. This is the foundation that sets podiatry apart.

 

[jehjr]

The point is that we all aren't cut out to be "surgeons," but we are all cut out to be experts in lower limb medicine.

Residency is called a PMS for a reason: its medicine and surgery. Lets keep those 24 month residencies for those who have no interest in surgery. Our healthcare system still needs doctors to evaluate and manage patients.

We need to continue to screen for academically talented students with GPA and MCAT. Let the residencies screen their externs for those who can suture and dissect. It is definitely not the job of the schools. Their sole goal is to prepare students to handle the responsibilities as a resident. Allow students to fight for good surgical training by proving themselves with grades and great clinical evaluations at externships.

A typical podiatrist will have surgery comprise 25% of his/her practice. Let not forget to teach/apply/reinforce biomechanics, orthotics, internal medicine, practice management, and conservative methods in our residencies. This is the foundation that sets podiatry apart.

I agree. I personally feel that a 2+1 model for residency makes more sense for podiatry than mandated 3+ year residencies across the board. I'm sure there is something to be said for uniform training, but I have mixed feelings about this drive for parity.

 

[air bud]

word up. I don't remember if it was this thread or another, but Podfather had a great explanation of how the dental model could work.
I can't help but watch in amazement in anatomy lab at how people hold a scalpel. I understand there is still plenty of time to learn, but come on. Or like in our internal-fixation lab last week. You should have seen how people held the drill. Straight arm, away from your body, no type of understanding of leverage and related stuff. Again, i understand it is just the beginning our practicing this stuff, but...

 

[janV88]

I don't remember the exact numbers, but I think AZpod scrambled 8-ish. The last I heard, all but one had matched and that one had chosen to withdraw from the scramble with the intent of joining a new program that is supposed to open later this year. It sounded like the position was a sure thing pending the opening of the program, but details were pretty vague.

Thanks for sharing.

I don't think we've heard from anyone at DMU yet. I know students from all the schools scramble...