3 years out - officially a millionaire and one step closer to saying goodbye to EM

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I don’t think it’s more likely you’ll find nothing. If you truly have a whole body MRI, I think the likelihood of a finding of unknown significance, let alone many findings, is pretty high.
Just a few nothing burgers.
There's some arthritis in parts of my back that sometimes hurt. I already knew this because a) they sometimes hurt and b) I'm a middle aged 100 kg man.
There's some arthritis in my shoulders allegedly, some findings in my AC joints too but pretty sure I had the MRI after an aggressive upper body workout so unclear if it was just picking up a little intentional inflammation. Arthritis wasn't noted on previous scan.
A couple of hemangiomas.
A cerebral vascular variant that I should probably get put into medical records in a very obvious place just in case someone wants to do a thrombectomy on my normal anatomy some day.
You get the idea.

Keep in mind this is diffusion weighted only mostly designed to find solid organ tumors.
 
Not to shift this too far off topic (as if it's been on topic for a few pages anyway), but there are 2 different test types that you're asking about here.

One is mutational testing of circulating tumor DNA (ctDNA) in a person with a known or suspected tumor in lieu of an actual biopsy. These can be faster than a biopsy or somewhat useful when a biopsy is difficult/impossible due to patient or system specific factors. Commercial tests like Guardant 360 and Foundation Liquid CDx are in this category. I personally find them more useful than just guessing what it is based on a CT scan but much less useful than an actual biopsy with tissue based NGS testing. My experience has been that the liquid biopsies don't pick up as many mutations as are present in the actual tumor (when compared side by side) and except for the most clinically obvious tumors, their ability to diagnose the primary site when you only have evidence of metastases is poor. In short, better than nothing, but there are better things.

If you're asking about blood-based multi-cancer early detection such as the Grail Galleri test, it's exciting technology, but you don't really have to read between the lines in their own manuscript to realize that it's not ready for prime time. In their big screening test of >6500 people, They had 92 positive tests, of which only 35 (a little more than 1/3) actually had cancer. This works out to a true positive test rate of 0.86%. Unfortunately, the false negative rate (negative blood test who were diagnosed with cancer within 12 months of the blood test) was 1.32%, 1.5x higher. Of the 35 true positives, 15 of them were breast, lung, colorectal and prostate, all of which have some reasonable level of evidence for standard screening procedures. So if you want to be really stringent in your definition, this test identified a real cancer in 0.3% of people in the study that would not have been picked up by standard screening when the actual cancer rate in the study was 1.8%, so it caught a little over 15% of the actual cancers. The author's own conclusion is "This study supports the feasibility of MCED screening for cancer and underscores the need for further research evaluating its clinical utility." Which translates to, "our test kind of works, but it mostly doesn't".

To be transparent, I accrued roughly 50 people to this study on my own (my institution at the time was the highest accruing to the study and the 2nd author who now works at Grail used to be at that institution). I think this technology has a lot of promise, and I imagine that there are some AI informed analysis models and testing strategies that are going to make this type of testing a standard in the next decade or so. But the currently available products just aren't there yet.

Now...aren't you sorry you asked?
No, I'm glad someone asked.
I still pay for a few Grail tests annually for the generation above me.
 
Does anyone know why it looks like total mumbo jumbo any time I try to quote someone?
I think you're using a mobile app (I think I saw one of the admins post that this is occurring with a mobile app - not sure if it's SDN's app or another).
 
No, I'm glad someone asked.
I still pay for a few Grail tests annually for the generation above me.
Even though it performs worse than current screening technology? I mean, it's your money, so you can clearly do whatever you choose to do with it.

I think my biggest problem with it is the high false negative rate. I suppose if you're using it in combination with standard age based cancer screening it could be modestly useful in it's current form. And maybe this is where it will ultimately wind up. Even the colorectal cancer specific blood based test on the market (Guardant's Shield) doesn't perform as well as colonoscopy or stool DNA based testing. But that's not what their marketing is aimed at and the people I know who have used Grail have said to me that they don't need to get their colonoscopy or mammogram anymore because their DNA test was negative for cancer.
 
Lots of docs need a refresher on PPV, NPV, sensitivity, specificity.
If you look at the paper, they didn't even report sensitivity, just specificity. I did it for them. It's 28.9%. If you take out the screen detectable cancers (which may or may not be fair) it drops to <20%. Just for a comparison, the sensitivity of colonoscopy for detecting colon cancer or advanced adenomas is 95%.

I would argue that if your test is intended to supplant standard screening, you need to do better than 20-30% sensitivity.
 
While I think it's important to continue to try to develop this kind of technology, it's pretty obvious that it has practically no clinical utility at this point. Of course, you'll always have those rare cases where it picked up something that significantly altered the course of someone's life and those are the stories that will become public.
 
Even though it performs worse than current screening technology? I mean, it's your money, so you can clearly do whatever you choose to do with it.

I think my biggest problem with it is the high false negative rate. I suppose if you're using it in combination with standard age based cancer screening it could be modestly useful in it's current form. And maybe this is where it will ultimately wind up. Even the colorectal cancer specific blood based test on the market (Guardant's Shield) doesn't perform as well as colonoscopy or stool DNA based testing. But that's not what their marketing is aimed at and the people I know who have used Grail have said to me that they don't need to get their colonoscopy or mammogram anymore because their DNA test was negative for cancer.
I pay for their tests and set up their oab draws with the understanding that they still get all recommended cancer screening.
 
Anyone with substantial decrease in their net worth in the past 1 month. Mine is down 100k from my measly ~1.4 mil.

My goal was to go from ~1.4 mil to 1.7+ mil this year and it does not seem like it's going to be the case with the market being so volatile.

Also, hoping Trump lower interest rate so I can add another investment property into my portfolio.


I feel like one needs to have a net worth of 5+ mil to truly feel like you are a millionaire. I feel like my lifestyle is akin to just an average middle class dude.
 
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Anyone with substantial decrease in their net worth in the past 1 month. Mine is down 100k from my measly ~1.4 mil.

My goal was to go from ~1.4 mil to 1.7+ mil this year and it does not seem like it's going to be the case with the market being so volatile.

Also, hoping Trump lower interest rate so I can add another investment property to my portfolio.
What are you invested in? The S&P 500 is down like 1% over the last month while you're down 7%.
 
Anyone with substantial decrease in their net worth in the past 1 month. Mine is down 100k from my measly ~1.4 mil.

My goal was to go from ~1.4 mil to 1.7+ mil this year and it does not seem like it's going to be the case with the market being so volatile.

Also, hoping Trump lower interest rate so I can add another investment property into my portfolio.


I feel like one needs to have a net worth of 5+ mil to truly feel like you are a millionaire. I feel like my lifestyle is akin to just an average middle dude.

Have to be ready for your NW if mostly in the market to take a haircut on of the next few years but ultimately bounce back higher than now.

I do agree with your 5m comment but i'm more comfortable with that being 5m in invested assets. Expect your number to rise with inflation over the years. Not too long ago you were set on 2m-2.5m. 5m liquid is a great number.
 
Have to be ready for your NW if mostly in the market to take a haircut on of the next few years but ultimately bounce back higher than now.

I do agree with your 5m comment but i'm more comfortable with that being 5m in invested assets. Expect your number to rise with inflation over the years. Not too long ago you were set on 2m-2.5m. 5m liquid is a great number.
I am still set at 2-2.5 with the caveat of having a paid off house. I do understand I won't feel "rich" with that number.
 
No one really knows what will happen.. it was but a year or 2 ago when WCI and his contributors said the market would return maybe 5-6% with real returns of 2-3%.. Meanwhile sp500 last year at 25%.. No one has any clue. IN theory the market baked in some of the trump effect.

If they cut corporate taxes stocks will pop. The first few earnings results were strong. BofA beat top of line and bottom line projections (which were already previously revised upward). If earnings come in strong market will continue to run.

I have no idea what will happen so i have money thrown everywhere. Crytpo - check, rental homes - check, every flavor of the stock market - check, etc etc.. I have no crystal ball but I believe in the US economy and frankly it is the main thing I need to track. And yes i have international exposure too..
 
No one really knows what will happen.. it was but a year or 2 ago when WCI and his contributors said the market would return maybe 5-6% with real returns of 2-3%.. Meanwhile sp500 last year at 25%.. No one has any clue. IN theory the market baked in some of the trump effect.
Market prices are so disconnected from forward earnings/expectations. I don’t see how things can continue on the same path that they have, however, as they say, the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.
 
No one really knows what will happen.. it was but a year or 2 ago when WCI and his contributors said the market would return maybe 5-6% with real returns of 2-3%.. Meanwhile sp500 last year at 25%.. No one has any clue. IN theory the market baked in some of the trump effect.

If they cut corporate taxes stocks will pop. The first few earnings results were strong. BofA beat top of line and bottom line projections (which were already previously revised upward). If earnings come in strong market will continue to run.

I have no idea what will happen so i have money thrown everywhere. Crytpo - check, rental homes - check, every flavor of the stock market - check, etc etc.. I have no crystal ball but I believe in the US economy and frankly it is the main thing I need to track. And yes i have international exposure too..
It will be a win if return is even 6% this year given how good return was last year.
 
It will be a win if return is even 6% this year given how good return was last year.

I would like for this to happen too. I just think in the next 5 years we will be lucky if we get 5-7% inflation adjusted returns. Be prepared for any of the next 5 years to be a 10-20% bad year so time in market rules. I do think tesla/crypto/nvidia/mag 7 will continue to beat voo over next 5 years so I am more interested in that sector. Also cash is getting you 4-5% so even keeping 5-10% of your portfolio there to see what happens isn't a bad idea since if stocks tank you get in cheap. With trump I think the market keeps rolling at least this year and AI and crypto will be the biggest winners.
 
I only have 400-500k out of my 2.3M in tax advantaged accounts. Most it my wealth continues to be freely accessible in taxable accounts. My 650k syndication portfolio is illiquid though, but again all still accessible before i turn 60 which is 25 years away

Just giving props that you basically doubled your NW since the start of this thread in 2.5 yrs!!! Your cutting your shifts by nearly 1/3 from 13 to 9 and you will likely hit the 4-5 range during the trump term.

The part I struggle with is at what point do you have to say to yourself, i've already done all the roth,401k,hsa which for simplicity lets say is close to 100k/yr for many years. When do you say to yourself well i have another 50-100 that normally i would put into the market in addition to those tax advantag account but really how much is it going to matter vs just enjoying it at that point?

Does this kick in when people hit their FIRE numbers like 5m for example where its all about let me make enough to just pay off yearly living expenses and let the nest egg keep growing?
 
Even though it performs worse than current screening technology? I mean, it's your money, so you can clearly do whatever you choose to do with it.

I think my biggest problem with it is the high false negative rate. I suppose if you're using it in combination with standard age based cancer screening it could be modestly useful in it's current form. And maybe this is where it will ultimately wind up. Even the colorectal cancer specific blood based test on the market (Guardant's Shield) doesn't perform as well as colonoscopy or stool DNA based testing. But that's not what their marketing is aimed at and the people I know who have used Grail have said to me that they don't need to get their colonoscopy or mammogram anymore because their DNA test was negative for cancer.
So obviously what everyone is worried about is the mystery esophageal or pancreatic carcinoma in someone who is maybe an occasional cigar smoker and/or bourbon drinker. Of course the chances are relatively low, but the implications of development are so catastrophic that wealthier people are happy to pay for these multi-cancer detection tools and a pan scan q5yrs for peace of mind.

Thoughts?
 
So obviously what everyone is worried about is the mystery esophageal or pancreatic carcinoma in someone who is maybe an occasional cigar smoker and/or bourbon drinker. Of course the chances are relatively low, but the implications of development are so catastrophic that wealthier people are happy to pay for these multi-cancer detection tools and a pan scan q5yrs for peace of mind.

Thoughts?
That with a test that performs as poorly as this one is just pissing money away and that a Q5y pan scan is even more pointless since you're not going to pick up an early esophageal or pancreatic (or colorectal, or breast or ....) on a routine CT CAP or MRI (which are even more pointless since a good MRI of the chest and abdomen is really difficult to get). The "peace of mind" that comes with this is a fantasy. I see people all the time with metastatic whatever cancer who had a "normal" CT scan of that area within the last 2 or 3 years and wonder "what did they miss?". The answer is "nothing, but once you know what to look for, it's easy to find".

But we all spend that much money on much dumber s***, so if that's how you want to waste it, go ahead. Just don't pretend that it's some magical anti-cancer force field. Statistically, you're going to get way more mileage out of a colonoscopy, PSA/mammo/PAP as appropriate and CT lung cancer screening for high risk than you are from this.

I think a great test of this technology would be, draw the test before a mammo or a colo and then compare the results. But there's no way they'll do that. They know how badly they'd lose.

Again, I do have great hope for blood based cancer screening and I do expect it to be part of "standard care" in the next decade or two, at the moment, the technology we do have isn't always very good at even detecting the cancers we know are there using a blood based assay.
 
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That with a test that performs as poorly as this one is just pissing money away and that a Q5y pan scan is even more pointless since you're not going to pick up an early esophageal or pancreatic (or colorectal, or breast or ....) on a routine CT CAP or MRI (which are even more pointless since a good MRI of the chest and abdomen is really difficult to get). The "peace of mind" that comes with this is a fantasy. I see people all the time with metastatic whatever cancer who had a "normal" CT scan of that area within the last 2 or 3 years and wonder "what did they miss?". The answer is "nothing, but once you know what to look for, it's easy to find".

But we all spend that much money on much dumber s***, so if that's how you want to waste it, go ahead. Just don't pretend that it's some magical anti-cancer force field. Statistically, you're going to get way more mileage out of a colonoscopy, PSA/mammo/PAP as appropriate and CT lung cancer screening for high risk than you are from this.

I think a great test of this technology would be, draw the test before a mammo or a colo and then compare the results. But there's no way they'll do that. They know how badly they'd lose.

Again, I do have great hope for blood based cancer screening and I do expect it to be part of "standard care" in the next decade or two, at the moment, the technology we do have isn't always very good at even detecting the cancers we know are there using a blood based assay.

So you think there’s no way to protect against tail risk in difficult to detect cancers?
 
That with a test that performs as poorly as this one is just pissing money away and that a Q5y pan scan is even more pointless since you're not going to pick up an early esophageal or pancreatic (or colorectal, or breast or ....) on a routine CT CAP or MRI (which are even more pointless since a good MRI of the chest and abdomen is really difficult to get). The "peace of mind" that comes with this is a fantasy. I see people all the time with metastatic whatever cancer who had a "normal" CT scan of that area within the last 2 or 3 years and wonder "what did they miss?". The answer is "nothing, but once you know what to look for, it's easy to find".

But we all spend that much money on much dumber s***, so if that's how you want to waste it, go ahead. Just don't pretend that it's some magical anti-cancer force field. Statistically, you're going to get way more mileage out of a colonoscopy, PSA/mammo/PAP as appropriate and CT lung cancer screening for high risk than you are from this.

I think a great test of this technology would be, draw the test before a mammo or a colo and then compare the results. But there's no way they'll do that. They know how badly they'd lose.

Again, I do have great hope for blood based cancer screening and I do expect it to be part of "standard care" in the next decade or two, at the moment, the technology we do have isn't always very good at even detecting the cancers we know are there using a blood based assay.

Bro, I am so going to quote you to so many of my people.
 
So you think there’s no way to protect against tail risk in difficult to detect cancers?
With current technology and current data? Not really.

I mean, anybody coming up to the plate in the bottom of the 9th with 2 outs and the bases loaded, down 3 runs can hit a walk off grand slam. But it happens so rarely that it's national news when it does. That's how I view this technology in it's current state.
 
I do agree with your 5m comment but i'm more comfortable with that being 5m in invested assets. Expect your number to rise with inflation over the years. Not too long ago you were set on 2m-2.5m. 5m liquid is a great number.
I have a different take on FIRE. My goal is to have passive income forever that covers my living expense.

$5M sounds like alot but if I am currently 50 and spending 400K/yr, then this will not last me. I would have to do the recommended 4% or 200k, which would not be able to support my family of 5 with all in/starting HS soon. I would have to have 10M to feel comfortable pulling out 400K/yr. I didn't even mention taxes on IRA that will eat into this.

My FIRE is if I have passive income covering my expenses be it a business that requires little work vs RE vs some other passive vehicles.

$5M+ with passive covering 400K/yr expenses is my Fire. I do not want/plan on touching my retirement and have it all appreciated to be passed down to my kids.
 
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Maybe I'm just a poor person, but, I am trying to figure out how to spend $400k/yr, every year, without accruing a whole bunch of physical things.
You can certainly do it if you’re buying your high school daughter $5k handbags and you can take pretty lavish trips and easily rack up the tab but I think most people that grew up with less than most would have a difficult time doing it and really justifying it to themselves.
 
Maybe I'm just a poor person, but, I am trying to figure out how to spend $400k/yr, every year, without accruing a whole bunch of physical things.
Multiple kids in college/professional school can do it quickly if you cover it for them. I know a guy with 3-4 who sent all of them to private institutions for all of that, miscalculated where they were financially, and wound up taking a bunch of weeks of (poorly) paid call every year at a Level 1 to try to make up the difference. Ruined his home life.

Otherwise I’m on board with you. Every time expenses come up in threads, it seems like most SDNers are maybe $150k.
 
I have a different take on FIRE. My goal is to have passive income forever that covers my living expense.

$5M sounds like alot but if I am currently 50 and spending 400K/yr, then this will not last me. I would have to do the recommended 4% or 100K, which would not be able to support my family of 5 with all in/starting HS soon. I would have to have 20M to feel comfortable pulling out 400K/yr. I didn't even mention taxes on IRA that will eat into this.

My FIRE is if I have passive income covering my expenses be it a business that requires little work vs RE vs some other passive vehicles.

$5M+ with passive covering 400K/yr expenses is my Fire. I do not want/plan on touching my retirement and have it all appreciated to be passed down to my kids.
Passive income is king.. it can however be brought to a value in today's money.

I don't quite get your math. You are saying that you need $20m to pull out 400k? that's 2%. My counter point to this is simply pull out a few years of money you need. My plan is to try to have 2 years of expenses sitting in cash. getting a 2% return is CD type money in a low interest environment.

you also mentioned that $5m 4% and 100k.. that's actually 200k.. I'm unsure if you are making an alternate point. FWIW the guy who came up with the 4% "rule" has said that the right number is probably 4.5%. Ill just say what I have seen is the more money people have the lower they view the Safe Withdrawal rate. I don't know if this is truly risk mitigation or people making up reasons to convince themselves (or their spouses) that they should keep working.

While a deeper chat is needed not all money the same. Having all your money tied up in a 401k with taxes due is different than having the money is a regular brokerage and a Roth IRA. We all have a mix I am guessing but the proportion of our money varies widely I am guessing.

All this matters..
 
Passive income is king.. it can however be brought to a value in today's money.

I don't quite get your math. You are saying that you need $20m to pull out 400k? that's 2%. My counter point to this is simply pull out a few years of money you need. My plan is to try to have 2 years of expenses sitting in cash. getting a 2% return is CD type money in a low interest environment.

you also mentioned that $5m 4% and 100k.. that's actually 200k.. I'm unsure if you are making an alternate point. FWIW the guy who came up with the 4% "rule" has said that the right number is probably 4.5%. Ill just say what I have seen is the more money people have the lower they view the Safe Withdrawal rate. I don't know if this is truly risk mitigation or people making up reasons to convince themselves (or their spouses) that they should keep working.

While a deeper chat is needed not all money the same. Having all your money tied up in a 401k with taxes due is different than having the money is a regular brokerage and a Roth IRA. We all have a mix I am guessing but the proportion of our money varies widely I am guessing.

All this matters..
My math was bad. So $10M for 400K/yr. Your thinking is spot on.

My goal is never to touch my retirement/savings. I want my passive to be at or above my living expense. Currently I am guessing 400K, prob 500K+ in 3 years when kids go to college/grad school. When they all are done and have jobs, it will drop to around 200K.
 
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You can certainly do it if you’re buying your high school daughter $5k handbags and you can take pretty lavish trips and easily rack up the tab but I think most people that grew up with less than most would have a difficult time doing it and really justifying it to themselves.
400K is alot but lifestyle creep happens and I rather creep + make more $$.

3 Private middle/high school kids 70K/yr
2 Club sports/travelling 30k/yr
Home mortgage + insurance + utilities + property tax 100k/yr (my current mortgage is 5k/month + Prop tax in Texas is 2500/mo)

So just these 3 alone is 200K/yr. So 200K or 16.6K/month spending on everything else including my golf membership (1k/mo), gym membership(3k/yr), food, travel, kids clothes, books, SAT prep courses. 3 teenage kids are expensive. Going to Asia for 3 wks this summer = 40K+

Cost will go up when they go to college due to tuition, living expenses, housing. I am betting each kid will be 40K+/yr.

When they finish college/grad school, then they would be off the books but for the next 12+ years, I am looking at someone in school

We do spend on some lavish stuff but I worked hard and able to do it. My wife's 8 year old minivan is getting old and will be replacing it with a new SUV around 90K. Things add up.
 
Multiple kids in college/professional school can do it quickly if you cover it for them. I know a guy with 3-4 who sent all of them to private institutions for all of that, miscalculated where they were financially, and wound up taking a bunch of weeks of (poorly) paid call every year at a Level 1 to try to make up the difference. Ruined his home life.

Otherwise I’m on board with you. Every time expenses come up in threads, it seems like most SDNers are maybe $150k.
I live in a reasonable cost of living but not LA/SF/NY high. But 150K seems low to me. Live in Texas and your property tax/mortgage/carrying costs on your home will be 50K+.

100K for everything else is really not much.

Can I live on 150k/yr, absolutely. Would I like it or have to change where we live/lifestyle, absolutely.
 
Passive income is king.. it can however be brought to a value in today's money.

I don't quite get your math. You are saying that you need $20m to pull out 400k? that's 2%. My counter point to this is simply pull out a few years of money you need. My plan is to try to have 2 years of expenses sitting in cash. getting a 2% return is CD type money in a low interest environment.

you also mentioned that $5m 4% and 100k.. that's actually 200k.. I'm unsure if you are making an alternate point. FWIW the guy who came up with the 4% "rule" has said that the right number is probably 4.5%. Ill just say what I have seen is the more money people have the lower they view the Safe Withdrawal rate. I don't know if this is truly risk mitigation or people making up reasons to convince themselves (or their spouses) that they should keep working.

While a deeper chat is needed not all money the same. Having all your money tied up in a 401k with taxes due is different than having the money is a regular brokerage and a Roth IRA. We all have a mix I am guessing but the proportion of our money varies widely I am guessing.

All this matters..

I think its somewhat important to draw the line on reasonable liquid NW shooting for plus being at an age to really enjoy it. Lets take an upper limit of 10m invested in stocks and pulling a 4% inflation adjusted amount regardless of market conditions. The median outcome after 20 years is your principle doubling to 20m and over 30 years principle tripling to 30m all while pulling out 400k!

. I understand that people won't quite be at 100% stocks but they probably wont pull 4% inflation adjusted regardelss of market conditions either.

Now I really think most on here will easily get to 5m and decide to work PT and ulimately get pretty close to the 10m mark due to compounding.
 
400K is alot but lifestyle creep happens and I rather creep + make more $$.

3 Private middle/high school kids 70K/yr
2 Club sports/travelling 30k/yr
Home mortgage + insurance + utilities + property tax 100k/yr (my current mortgage is 5k/month + Prop tax in Texas is 2500/mo)

So just these 3 alone is 200K/yr. So 200K or 16.6K/month spending on everything else including my golf membership (1k/mo), gym membership(3k/yr), food, travel, kids clothes, books, SAT prep courses. 3 teenage kids are expensive. Going to Asia for 3 wks this summer = 40K+

Cost will go up when they go to college due to tuition, living expenses, housing. I am betting each kid will be 40K+/yr.

When they finish college/grad school, then they would be off the books but for the next 12+ years, I am looking at someone in school

We do spend on some lavish stuff but I worked hard and able to do it. My wife's 8 year old minivan is getting old and will be replacing it with a new SUV around 90K. Things add up.

Even if you live in the county with the highest property tax rate in all of Texas, paying 2500/month means you're living in a $1.2-1.3 million dollar house.

So yeah if you live in a $1.3 million house and send all your kids to private school and pay 15K/year for their club sports each and go on vacation to Asia for 3 weeks and plan on buying a 90K SUV....then yes I'm sure you can burn through 400K really quick.
 
Even if you live in the county with the highest property tax rate in all of Texas, paying 2500/month means you're living in a $1.2-1.3 million dollar house.

So yeah if you live in a $1.3 million house and send all your kids to private school and pay 15K/year for their club sports each and go on vacation to Asia for 3 weeks and plan on buying a 90K SUV....then yes I'm sure you can burn through 400K really quick.
Correct. My income outstrip my expenses, plus I am at Fire so I rather spend this on things that bring me enjoyment while I can still enjoy it. If I made 400K/yr, I would spend 2-300K and save 100K.

Life is a balance but if I had to choose, I rather spend when I am healthy/young enough to enjoy it rather than having 5 more million sitting in my rocking chair wonder what is the point of 5M in the bank.
 
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Just giving props that you basically doubled your NW since the start of this thread in 2.5 yrs!!! Your cutting your shifts by nearly 1/3 from 13 to 9 and you will likely hit the 4-5 range during the trump term.

The part I struggle with is at what point do you have to say to yourself, i've already done all the roth,401k,hsa which for simplicity lets say is close to 100k/yr for many years. When do you say to yourself well i have another 50-100 that normally i would put into the market in addition to those tax advantag account but really how much is it going to matter vs just enjoying it at that point?

Does this kick in when people hit their FIRE numbers like 5m for example where its all about let me make enough to just pay off yearly living expenses and let the nest egg keep growing?

2023 was an incredible year for me financially. We had 900k of income (w2, real estate, options all included). So i think the second million happened pretty quickly.

The speed of the third million feels much slower - given drop in w2 incomes and my options returns being just okay last year.

I don’t think we will hit 4 million in 4 years. Probably 3.5 ish if we’re lucky. Will see, time will tell.

For me personally my purse strings are starting to loosen up. I’m definitely okay spending a little extra now compared to 3-4 years ago. I don’t think of smaller expenses as much as before. I’m a lot more relaxed about money. Mostly because i know that the first 1-2 million is the most importantly, after that compounding starts to take over. So i know the hard part is done and my portfolio returns themselves will start to become sizable. This understanding has helped me be less frugal - I’m naturally a very frugal person.
 
I think its somewhat important to draw the line on reasonable liquid NW shooting for plus being at an age to really enjoy it. Lets take an upper limit of 10m invested in stocks and pulling a 4% inflation adjusted amount regardless of market conditions. The median outcome after 20 years is your principle doubling to 20m and over 30 years principle tripling to 30m all while pulling out 400k!

. I understand that people won't quite be at 100% stocks but they probably wont pull 4% inflation adjusted regardelss of market conditions either.

Now I really think most on here will easily get to 5m and decide to work PT and ulimately get pretty close to the 10m mark due to compounding.
$10m is doable but not simple. Also depends on NW vs liquid. Personally, I had a goal of $4m NW, then it became $5m liquid. .i keep moving my goal posts. I’m confident I’ll reach my goal. That being said unless you earn a lot and live in a Low cost of living situation $10m is gonna be tough for most docs. As emergent alluded to life is expense.

If you save 6k a month in 32 years you would have $8.2m. In 30 years it is $7.1m

Realistically, most EM docs have 25 post training years. Sure some will work more but the data on people quitting suggests otherwise. Is it doable, sure.. it’s not likely though.
 
$10m is doable but not simple. Also depends on NW vs liquid. Personally, I had a goal of $4m NW, then it became $5m liquid. .i keep moving my goal posts. I’m confident I’ll reach my goal. That being said unless you earn a lot and live in a Low cost of living situation $10m is gonna be tough for most docs. As emergent alluded to life is expense.

If you save 6k a month in 32 years you would have $8.2m. In 30 years it is $7.1m

Realistically, most EM docs have 25 post training years. Sure some will work more but the data on people quitting suggests otherwise. Is it doable, sure.. it’s not likely though.

12k/per month for 16 yrs at 10% which is the s and p 500 gives you 5.5m liquid in nominal terms. Probably requires 450k salary. Not saying this is easy. EM friends that were into FIRE were investing 200-250 at least for a a 3-5 year stretch to get it going knowing they would eventually not be able to do bc of family, house, kids, etc.

I only lived off 5k/mo first 4-5 years as an attending and just put everything into VOO. Then expense go up. Once married my expenses went up 50%. Its a heck of jump start if you are lucky to be in a position and disciplined enough to get the process going.
 
Work a ton. Save a ton. Pay off a ton. I do not do “passive income” business stuff. I just do everything in stocks. That is the ultimate passive income machine, and less headaches.

I view the people who make passive income businesses that hit it big (millions) as the same people who early invested in Tesla/Nvidia/Apple/Google/Microsoft/ARM/Amazon/Costco/Walmart etc… it is unpredictable success.
 
Work a ton. Save a ton. Pay off a ton. I do not do “passive income” business stuff. I just do everything in stocks. That is the ultimate passive income machine, and less headaches.

I view the people who make passive income businesses that hit it big (millions) as the same people who early invested in Tesla/Nvidia/Apple/Google/Microsoft/ARM/Amazon/Costco/Walmart etc… it is unpredictable success.

Agreed. Not saying you cant make money in real estate. I just dont have the time/energy/effort to want it. Also with rates so high i feel RE needs to reset to make it more alluring Set it and forget it in stocks. No ongoing costs vs a good chunk in real estate and the pressure to always have it rented.
 
12k/per month for 16 yrs at 10% which is the s and p 500 gives you 5.5m liquid in nominal terms. Probably requires 450k salary. Not saying this is easy. EM friends that were into FIRE were investing 200-250 at least for a a 3-5 year stretch to get it going knowing they would eventually not be able to do bc of family, house, kids, etc.

I only lived off 5k/mo first 4-5 years as an attending and just put everything into VOO. Then expense go up. Once married my expenses went up 50%. Its a heck of jump start if you are lucky to be in a position and disciplined enough to get the process going.

12k/mo dayum.

I feel pretty ok / accomplished with my 6k/mo.

Work isn't everything. I enjoy my time off.
 
12k/per month for 16 yrs at 10% which is the s and p 500 gives you 5.5m liquid in nominal terms. Probably requires 450k salary. Not saying this is easy. EM friends that were into FIRE were investing 200-250 at least for a a 3-5 year stretch to get it going knowing they would eventually not be able to do bc of family, house, kids, etc.

I only lived off 5k/mo first 4-5 years as an attending and just put everything into VOO. Then expense go up. Once married my expenses went up 50%. Its a heck of jump start if you are lucky to be in a position and disciplined enough to get the process going.
It’s all doable. I know people who save 80-90% of their income. I know people who save close to 0. My point is to save 12k per month for 16 years isnt easy at all. Using your numbers lets say half is pre tax and half is post tax.

The AVG em doc is making closer to 350 and not 450. Let’s play the game a different way.. let’s say you make 30k a month. 6k pre tax leaves 24k. SS/Medicare is 1k/month.. thats 23k. Federal income tax if single you would pay about 6k a month in tax.. That leaves 17k. 6k more for post retirement tax. Thats 11k left. Throw in health insurance, life, disability its another 1 k a month. So now we have 10k. This is assuming no state income tax.

Well maybe you have student loans.. Suddenly it’s not that much money. Can it be done sure.. it’s hard to whine about living on 10k a month. That being said you are not living some insane lifestyle. Have a kid, a Stay at home spouse and suddenly you are broke.

I save a lot. I pay a lot in taxes. I write off everything i legally can. I max out every tax advantaged account I can. I save well above the numbers above. It’s not easy. I craved FI. It made me much happier going to work. I’ll keep working.

But it is not easy. Some people are married before they become attendings, some people have kids before they become attendings.
 
It’s all doable. I know people who save 80-90% of their income. I know people who save close to 0. My point is to save 12k per month for 16 years isnt easy at all. Using your numbers lets say half is pre tax and half is post tax.

The AVG em doc is making closer to 350 and not 450. Let’s play the game a different way.. let’s say you make 30k a month. 6k pre tax leaves 24k. SS/Medicare is 1k/month.. thats 23k. Federal income tax if single you would pay about 6k a month in tax.. That leaves 17k. 6k more for post retirement tax. Thats 11k left. Throw in health insurance, life, disability its another 1 k a month. So now we have 10k. This is assuming no state income tax.

Well maybe you have student loans.. Suddenly it’s not that much money. Can it be done sure.. it’s hard to whine about living on 10k a month. That being said you are not living some insane lifestyle. Have a kid, a Stay at home spouse and suddenly you are broke.

I save a lot. I pay a lot in taxes. I write off everything i legally can. I max out every tax advantaged account I can. I save well above the numbers above. It’s not easy. I craved FI. It made me much happier going to work. I’ll keep working.

But it is not easy. Some people are married before they become attendings, some people have kids before they become attendings.

The average EM only makes $350!? That’s almost what Hospitalists make…
 
It’s all doable. I know people who save 80-90% of their income. I know people who save close to 0. My point is to save 12k per month for 16 years isnt easy at all. Using your numbers lets say half is pre tax and half is post tax.

The AVG em doc is making closer to 350 and not 450. Let’s play the game a different way.. let’s say you make 30k a month. 6k pre tax leaves 24k. SS/Medicare is 1k/month.. thats 23k. Federal income tax if single you would pay about 6k a month in tax.. That leaves 17k. 6k more for post retirement tax. Thats 11k left. Throw in health insurance, life, disability its another 1 k a month. So now we have 10k. This is assuming no state income tax.

Well maybe you have student loans.. Suddenly it’s not that much money. Can it be done sure.. it’s hard to whine about living on 10k a month. That being said you are not living some insane lifestyle. Have a kid, a Stay at home spouse and suddenly you are broke.

I save a lot. I pay a lot in taxes. I write off everything i legally can. I max out every tax advantaged account I can. I save well above the numbers above. It’s not easy. I craved FI. It made me much happier going to work. I’ll keep working.

But it is not easy. Some people are married before they become attendings, some people have kids before they become attendings.
And this is why I work 200+ hours a month. Forget living on only $10k. But I also save $13k a month for retirement, $3.6k a month for kids 529/wedding/future house down payment, $3.8k mortgage payment (15 year note at 5% interest rate). I finished my med school debt recently and about to start making 50% more payments on my mortgage.

All while saving cash to buy a new truck this year for me since last year I bought the brand new $100k Yukon Denali family wagon for my wife (all cash).

It is amazing how much money you prevent spending (cost savings) by living a life of paying cash money. It takes years to get over the compound interest mountain but once you make it over the peak - it is outstanding. 2 more years and compound interest is working for me.
 
And this is why I work 200+ hours a month. Forget living on only $10k. But I also save $13k a month for retirement, $3.6k a month for kids 529/wedding/future house down payment, $3.8k mortgage payment (15 year note at 5% interest rate). I finished my med school debt recently and about to start making 50% more payments on my mortgage.

All while saving cash to buy a new truck this year for me since last year I bought the brand new $100k Yukon Denali family wagon for my wife (all cash).

It is amazing how much money you prevent spending (cost savings) by living a life of paying cash money. It takes years to get over the compound interest mountain but once you make it over the peak - it is outstanding. 2 more years and compound interest is working for me.

Your wife is really expensive.

Yeah I guess I don't see why it would be a parents responsibility to pay for their kids house down payment.
 
The average EM only makes $350!? That’s almost what Hospitalists make…
The median is ~300k for hospitalist right now, and also we work 15 days/month as opposed to 12-13 days for EM. However, we might work the same number of hours given that we can leave our work early while EM docs can't.
 
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